NationStates Jolt Archive

...having just joined the UN I got this telegram:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Compliance Ministry
Received: 2 days ago Laws have been enacted to bring the Empire of Alex II into compliance with the United Nations "Rights and Duties of UN States" resolution.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is that the UN COMPLIANCE MINISTRY? what the fuck? my laws are my laws, no? i thought the UN was about external politics?

If you join the UN, does this mean you have to conform to some bullshit UN template of the ideal state?!? what is the scope for diversity? exploring the potentials of different political systems? I am interested in having an influence on international affairs but I am certainly not willing to give up my precious sovereignty.

1) Did you read the resolutions that were passed before you joined?

2) There is no 'blueprint'. There is no shadowy body pulling the strings of the UN-- it is other UN members just like you who vote on resolutions for one reason or another.

3) Do you mean 'I like being able to force resolutions through but don't you dare do that to me'? If so, then that is tough cookies. You get a vote and a voice, you can use it. If you have organisational skills, wit, some spare time and some charisma then you have the possibility of getting laws passed in the UN that you like. In return you risk someone, or other nations, managing to do the same thing to pass laws that you don't like. Why didnt this occur to you before?

Maybe the UN shouldn't have been called the UN, because people get fooled into thinking that its a toothless talking shop like the one on earth and it isn't. But there you are, it is what it is and it does what it does. Its up to you how you choice to play your cards now. You can gamble with the rest of us, or you can fold. But for goodness sakes, don't start complaining that you didnt know the rules of the game after you got dealt a hand.

G.P. Punkachu

my laws are my laws, no? i thought the UN was about external politics?

Did you read the FAQ?

"The UN is your chance to mold the rest of the world to your vision, by voting for resolutions you like and scuttling the rest. However, it's a double-edged sword, because your nation will also be affected by any resolutions that pass. (You can't just obey the resolutions you like and ignore the rest, like real nations do.)"

If you join the UN, does this mean you have to conform to some bullshit UN template of the ideal state?!? what is the scope for diversity? exploring the potentials of different political systems? I am interested in having an influence on international affairs but I am certainly not willing to give up my precious sovereignty.

Quick answers: no, up to a point; lots; lots; tough.

The UN has a great deal of flexibility to allow diverse political, economic, moral and religious systems. However, it does have very wide-ranging powers indeed. Some nations on these forums believe that it repeatedly oversteps the limits of national sovereignty.

In theory, the UN can ban capitalism or communism, outlaw religion or do whatever else it likes. In practice, it's not going to - attempts have been made and they've always failed miserably. For knottier issues - like environmental protection or banning the death penalty (which have both been hotly debated on these forums recently), your best way of protecting your sovereignty is to get involved in the debate.

Best to be very clear here: you are not permitted to ignore UN resolutions because you don't like them.

Nor is it possible to repeal UN resolutions once they've been passed.

If you really can't live with those two points, best to leave the UN. But we feel that the best path is to get involved in the discussions on these forums.

Comrade Chomsky
Delegate for Foreign Affairs

1) Did you read the resolutions that were passed before you joined?

As far as I'm aware, resolutions are not laws. They are not legally enforceable. They should not automatically change the legislative structure of my country. The only person who should have the sovereign power to do that is me. That is the whole point of a nationSTATE - autonomous political power to govern.


2) There is no 'blueprint'. There is no shadowy body pulling the strings of the UN-- it is other UN members just like you who vote on resolutions for one reason or another.


Don't fucking patronise me, ****. I wasn't suggesting some conspiracy theory. I do not like enforceable democracy. People rarely consider the wider social interests - they act on private utility. I would like resolutions to have influence - but not dominance. If UN members believe that I am not sufficiently complying with UN resolutions, and that this sufficiently jeopardises the authority of the UN, then they can chuck me out of the UN, just like, erm, Israel and the US... ahem.


3) Do you mean 'I like being able to force resolutions through but don't you dare do that to me'? If so, then that is tough cookies. You get a vote and a voice, you can use it. If you have organisational skills, wit, some spare time and some charisma then you have the possibility of getting laws passed in the UN that you like. In return you risk someone, or other nations, managing to do the same thing to pass laws that you don't like. Why didnt this occur to you before?

Why didn't it occur to you to remove your head from your ass before replying to me :roll: I was NOT AWARE that the UN had the AUTHORITY TO PASS LAWS!!! If this is the case then clearly my nationstate, and many others within the UN, are criminal states under those international laws and should be ejected from the UN - or, oh shit, forced into 'compliance' without any opportunity to decline this authoritarian rule of the majority! where are my rights! you bastards...


Maybe the UN shouldn't have been called the UN, because people get fooled into thinking that its a toothless talking shop like the one on earth and it isn't. But there you are, it is what it is and it does what it does. Its up to you how you choice to play your cards now. You can gamble with the rest of us, or you can fold. But for goodness sakes, don't start complaining that you didnt know the rules of the game after you got dealt a hand.
G.P. Punkachu

I looked in the FAQ - nothing about forced co-ercion to comply with UN resolutions. If the UN is full of sanctimonious pricks like you then I'll be happy to leave. I thought the whole point of the 'game' was to explore political possibilities - not to be a bitch to someone else's 'ideals.'

my laws are my laws, no? i thought the UN was about external politics?

Did you read the FAQ?

"The UN is your chance to mold the rest of the world to your vision, by voting for resolutions you like and scuttling the rest. However, it's a double-edged sword, because your nation will also be affected by any resolutions that pass. (You can't just obey the resolutions you like and ignore the rest, like real nations do.)"

ha ha ha ha ha

touche!


If you join the UN, does this mean you have to conform to some bullshit UN template of the ideal state?!? what is the scope for diversity? exploring the potentials of different political systems? I am interested in having an influence on international affairs but I am certainly not willing to give up my precious sovereignty.

Quick answers: no, up to a point; lots; lots; tough.

So, the state can be considered to be that of the UN, and the individual countries are like constituecies with a degree of autonomous power? Jeez


The UN has a great deal of flexibility to allow diverse political, economic, moral and religious systems. However, it does have very wide-ranging powers indeed. Some nations on these forums believe that it repeatedly oversteps the limits of national sovereignty.


hmmm....


In theory, the UN can ban capitalism or communism, outlaw religion or do whatever else it likes. In practice, it's not going to - attempts have been made and they've always failed miserably. For knottier issues - like environmental protection or banning the death penalty (which have both been hotly debated on these forums recently), your best way of protecting your sovereignty is to get involved in the debate.


Isn't democracy mandatory in the UN? that is the only reason I am concerned as regards the political system in my state.


Best to be very clear here: you are not permitted to ignore UN resolutions because you don't like them.

Nor is it possible to repeal UN resolutions once they've been passed.

If you really can't live with those two points, best to leave the UN. But we feel that the best path is to get involved in the discussions on these forums.


So resolutions have automatic legislative effect? Fuck that!


Comrade Chomsky
Delegate for Foreign Affairs

Thank you Comrade Chomsky for you intelligent reply. Unfortunately, unless you are indeed the man Noam himself, I have lost all respect for you for choosing such a rubbish, cliche name. I bet you have a Che Guevara T-Shirt, eh? you cock

!KILL YOU IDOLS!

So, the state can be considered to be that of the UN, and the individual countries are like constituecies with a degree of autonomous power?

To a point. The Rights and Duties of Nation States resolution, which just passed, sets some limits to the power of the UN. Have a read of that for more info.

Isn't democracy mandatory in the UN? that is the only reason I am concerned as regards the political system in my state.

Nope. States can have whatever internal political system they like.


So resolutions have automatic legislative effect?

Yep.


I have lost all respect for you for choosing such a rubbish, cliche name.

Oh dear, and you were doing so well up til then. Cliche? Point me out one other nation who's using it and I might agree.


I bet you have a Che Guevara T-Shirt, eh?

Nope. Sorry to disappoint you.


you cock

Please moderate your language in future postings. Not all users on these forums are especially tolerant of new members throwing their weight around.

I can't help but feel sympathy for Alex II's wanton rage and dissappointment.
I too read the UN rules back when I originally signed up my first nation (too damn long ago, actually.) and idealistically foolish as I was said "Wow! That's great! : D"

Then they passed some podunk resolution that banned region-codes on DVDs because "there's no reason that you shouldn't be able to watch a DVD made in the US for the US market in Europe."

I mean .. aside of the fact that this was one of the more stupid resolutions that was ever voted on, it also ignored the fact that region coding exists to protect the interests of the studios. Why go to the movies and watch Movie X if you can already buy the DVD with all extra features in x-languages or with x-language subtitles? Hell, there'd be private business renting these DVDs out.

So practically speaking, after this resolution, the economy of each nation with a large entertainment industry should have dropped by one rating simply because they actually had to produce and release movies in a manner that they were on the market everywhere within one day of the first release. Only really big movies warrant that (like Matrix, X-Men) because they won't be a bomb. You'd be missing out on the good but not hyped movies that may never be released in Europe because the translation, dubbing and marketing costs wouldn't be worth the risk of having a really shitty movie on your hands that doesn't sell.


But I'm riding a single point here.


Alex II is right, it doesn't make sense that a metric assload of nations simply votes YES for every well-argued resolution without pondering and rethinking the effects for even five minutes. Suddenly you have mad rights guranteed to the nations rainforests that are actually violated every time you choose the "buldoze the rainforest for uranium mining" option in one of the first thirty issues.



And (finally, you will say) I get to my point: You so can ignore the resolutions because there are no direct consequences, there may be some in RP but some of the most powerful nations *coughuraniumcough* fly wars of aggression on newbies who annoy them. Which disagrees with the UN rules of conduct that were passed three days ago.


So, Alex II, go ahead and ignore the resolutions. Fuck knows I do. I make inroads into my rainforest and I'll be damned if I let you people watch high quality Castalan movies on DVD before our industry releases them in your country.

So, the state can be considered to be that of the UN, and the individual countries are like constituecies with a degree of autonomous power?

To a point. The Rights and Duties of Nation States resolution, which just passed, sets some limits to the power of the UN. Have a read of that for more info.


Cheers 8)


Isn't democracy mandatory in the UN? that is the only reason I am concerned as regards the political system in my state.

Nope. States can have whatever internal political system they like.


Bueno!


So resolutions have automatic legislative effect?

Yep.


no bueno


I have lost all respect for you for choosing such a rubbish, cliche name.

Oh dear, and you were doing so well up til then. Cliche? Point me out one other nation who's using it and I might agree.


Cliche in terms of the hoardes of clueless left-leaning sociology/art student motherfuckers who blindly worship chomsky/che guevara/zinn/naomi klein/ whoevery is fashoinable at the moment

Its not that I don't respect Chomsky - or people who appreciate Chomsky - but simply that its easy to take the piss out of those who aim at being so fucking politically righteous whilst simultaneously oblivious to the irony in the commodification of the celebrity. what was that about no logo, miss klein? ha ha ha. you can have your trendy RATMlegacy -> che guevara fashion -> Chomsky crap and i'll have my sanity :D

[i appreciate that i have possibly slagged off almost everyone on this board. oh well.]


I bet you have a Che Guevara T-Shirt, eh?

Nope. Sorry to disappoint you.

oh well. poster maybe? or a cuban flag?

Alex II is right, it doesn't make sense that a metric assload of nations simply votes YES for every well-argued resolution without pondering and rethinking the effects for even five minutes. Suddenly you have mad rights guranteed to the nations rainforests that are actually violated every time you choose the "buldoze the rainforest for uranium mining" option in one of the first thirty issues.



And (finally, you will say) I get to my point: You so can ignore the resolutions because there are no direct consequences, there may be some in RP but some of the most powerful nations *coughuraniumcough* fly wars of aggression on newbies who annoy them. Which disagrees with the UN rules of conduct that were passed three days ago.


So, Alex II, go ahead and ignore the resolutions. f--- knows I do. I make inroads into my rainforest and I'll be damned if I let you people watch high quality Castalan movies on DVD before our industry releases them in your country.

Its all good

*In a generous bought of joy Alex II airfreights a shipment of fair trade strawberries, cream and waffles to the Capitalist Paradise of Cataslan in thanks for his/her kind, intelligent and welcoming act of international diplomacy*

Alex II, I don't know your particular politics and, frankly, I don't care now I've read your offensive and ill-informed diatribes. If you wanted respect for your views, you should have done a better job of earning them. Calling people c***s is a surefire way of making enemies.

With regards to the powers of the UN: don't sign up to anything when you haven't made yourself aware of the consequences. Fool.

ALEX II: Its not that I don't respect Chomsky - or people who appreciate Chomsky - but simply that its easy to take the piss out of those who aim at being so f--- politically righteous whilst simultaneously oblivious to the irony in the commodification of the celebrity. what was that about no logo, miss klein? ha ha ha. you can have your trendy RATMlegacy -> che guevara fashion -> Chomsky crap and i'll have my sanity

If you'd taken the time to read other posts in this forum, you would have realised that East Hackney has used names such as Chomsky, Galloway and, yes, Guevara for often humorous effect. If you'd been less of a plum, you might also have realised that Naomi Klein is aware of the irony inherent in No Logo. She is responsible for it. I really object to being told that because I admire Chomsky, Klein, etc, I am a trendy. You know NOTHING about me, East Hackney or Albion Soviets. For example, I specifically do not have a Che t-shirt because it's a blatant marketing rip-off and I find it extremely distasteful.

Jesus, this is the second time today I've found myself getting mighty bloody pissed off by stuff I've read on this forum. Ordinarily I take the approach that moderation and diplomacy is a must in this forum, even with idiots but I'm sick of the wanton, supine IDIOCY that you typify. Your treatment of others on this forum is despicable and you sicken me to the core.

Alex II, I don't know your particular politics and, frankly, I don't care now I've read your offensive and ill-informed diatribes. If you wanted respect for your views, you should have done a better job of earning them. Calling people c***s is a surefire way of making enemies.


Enemies? I really am quaking in my boots :lol: chill! I'm all for serious debate - but if I cant sprinkle it with the odd insult or two, wheres the fun in that!


With regards to the powers of the UN: don't sign up to anything when you haven't made yourself aware of the consequences. Fool.


I was looking for clarification of the consequences. But thanks anyway!


ALEX II: Its not that I don't respect Chomsky - or people who appreciate Chomsky - but simply that its easy to take the piss out of those who aim at being so f--- politically righteous whilst simultaneously oblivious to the irony in the commodification of the celebrity. what was that about no logo, miss klein? ha ha ha. you can have your trendy RATMlegacy -> che guevara fashion -> Chomsky crap and i'll have my sanity

If you'd taken the time to read other posts in this forum, you would have realised that East Hackney has used names such as Chomsky, Galloway and, yes, Guevara for often humorous effect. If you'd been less of a plum, you might also have realised that Naomi Klein is aware of the irony inherent in No Logo. She is responsible for it. I really object to being told that because I admire Chomsky, Klein, etc, I am a trendy. You know NOTHING about me, East Hackney or Albion Soviets. For example, I specifically do not have a Che t-shirt because it's a blatant marketing rip-off and I find it extremely distasteful.


But its that corporate marketing of the left that I was laughing at! Why hide behind a logo, an idol, lable - be proud of who you are!
I wasnt lablelling the people who admire Chomsky etc as trendy - although, for some, that might well be an influence - but the fashion, the commodification that it ironically has inspired. Which you seem to also dislike. I know Naomi Klein is aware of the irony inherent in No Logo - thats why I used that example! Christ - stop being so defensive :P


Jesus, this is the second time today I've found myself getting mighty bloody pissed off by stuff I've read on this forum. Ordinarily I take the approach that moderation and diplomacy is a must in this forum, even with idiots but I'm sick of the wanton, supine IDIOCY that you typify. Your treatment of others on this forum is despicable and you sicken me to the core.

I love you too 8)

ooh, too many exclamation marks in that last post... i just want to be loved :oops:

My main objection to you has come from the complete lack of respect you have shown to those who have answered your questions as best they can. Whether or not we agree on issues is irrelevant, I find your treatment of others unacceptable.

And (finally, you will say) I get to my point: You so can ignore the resolutions because there are no direct consequences

I must admit I'd overlooked the RP side of things, since the UN forum is the only place I RP East Hackney. Yes, you can ignore UN resolutions to your heart's content when RPing, since there's no way of forcing you to comply. What I was talking about was the game mechanic effect of altering your nation's stats, which can't be avoided.

But a friendly warning - if you do go flagrantly ignoring UN resolutions when RPing, be ready for trouble. If you ignore the DVD region code thing, or the Save the Forests resolution, no-one's likely to care. But if you ignore the Gay Rights or Human Rights resolutions, say, or start trading in slaves, nations may, at their discretion, start declaring war on you, or just ignore you altogether.

Alex II - you've raised some very good points concerning the way left-wing thinkers get idolised, most of which I agree with. As Ecopoeia pointed out on my behalf, the Chomsky/Guevara/Bragg thing was part a gimmick and part a joke - none of them are my idols, though some of them have my respect.

Odd insult? Maybe. But barging straight onto a forum and spraying abuse around isn't going to get your views taken seriously. Hang around, find out how things work, get to know some of the regular posters... then dive in and start calling us tree-huggers, hippies, woolly liberals or whatever. And we'll insult you right back :wink:

My main objection to you has come from the complete lack of respect you have shown to those who have answered your questions as best they can. Whether or not we agree on issues is irrelevant, I find your treatment of others unacceptable.

i find your intolerance of my colourful diplomatic style is in DIRECT CONTRAVENTION OF THE TOLERANCE CODE as stipulated in YE HOLY BOOK OF THE MIGHTY MORAL HIGH HORSE. you are henceforce relegated from your position as knight of the sanctimonious kingdom of righteousness to a mere mortal. incidently, the advantage of this demotion is that you can a) have a laugh taking the piss out of other people, and even better, b) have the sense of perspective, humour and humility not to throw a pompous childish strop whenever other people take the piss out of you! which they will do anyway. frequently.

i still love you 8)

[quote=Cataslan]Alex II - you've raised some very good points concerning the way left-wing thinkers get idolised, most of which I agree with. As Ecopoeia pointed out on my behalf, the Chomsky/Guevara/Bragg thing was part a gimmick and part a joke - none of them are my idols, though some of them have my respect.

Odd insult? Maybe. But barging straight onto a forum and spraying abuse around isn't going to get your views taken seriously. Hang around, find out how things work, get to know some of the regular posters... then dive in and start calling us tree-huggers, hippies, woolly liberals or whatever. And we'll insult you right back :wink:

ta. to be honest, i only signed up to this nation state thing a week or so ago, but i think you might see a lot more of me in the future. incidently, in the last 2 hours or so of this thread, this site has been a glorious diversion from an essay i've got to do on.... "The State is Irrelevant in a Globalised Economy and Society. Discuss"

oooh the irony

take care y'all

I looked in the FAQ but I didn't actually read it in any sort of depth. Then I decided to come here and froth at the mouth. If the UN is full of people who get tired of the millionth whinger who bangs on about soveregnty but who have enough nous to stay in character, then I 'll stay on the short bus where I belong.'

Well, we all make mistakes. By the way, I'm in character when I'm here on the forums. The character I play just happens to be a pompous arsehole. No need to get your knickers in a twist mate.

ALEX II "i find your intolerance of my colourful diplomatic style is in DIRECT CONTRAVENTION OF THE TOLERANCE CODE as stipulated in YE HOLY BOOK OF THE MIGHTY MORAL HIGH HORSE. you are henceforce relegated from your position as knight of the sanctimonious kingdom of righteousness to a mere mortal. incidently, the advantage of this demotion is that you can a) have a laugh taking the piss out of other people, and even better, b) have the sense of perspective, humour and humility not to throw a pompous childish strop whenever other people take the piss out of you! which they will do anyway. frequently.

You directly insulted OTHERS (ie. not me) in a manner that was suggestive not of humour but an infantile strop. If that was not your intention then fine. I went for you in such a vicious way partly cos I'm in bad mood after some other stuff that got posted today.

But...yeah, OK. I think East Hackney dealt with you much better. Consider the high horse dismounted and being prepared for a visit from Catherine the Great, poor thing.

i still love you"

I'm sorry, I don't find you sexually attractive. But if times get tough, consider yourself an option for a cold, passionless liaison. Should you be after more homely company, I heartily recommend the Strangers' Bar. You'll meet a few of us in there. Some of us may even like you. Eventually...

The ever eager and always team playing nation of Berkylvania just wants to get in on this fun flame fest!

Unfortunately, honored representative of Alex II, we all must abide by the strictures of the UN. While recent proposals have been improving in quality and consideration, we all must occasionally suffer through ill-advised and poorly thought out resolutions. Although, to be fair, our government has made quite a lot of new revenue by taxing recently legalized prostitution.

In short, the UN is very much a "Love It Or Leave It" proposition. So my advice is just sit back, debate about whatever interests you and chuckle with grim superiority at the rest. Either that or go slashdot yourself. Up to you, really.

Either way, welcome to the dysfunctional world family and remember the rain is God crying because he has to watch you masturbate all day (this is the little thought of downside of omnipresence).

"Laws have been enacted to bring the Holy Empire of DubyaShrubland into compliance with the United Nations "Rights and Duties of UN States" resolution."

So, how do I determine precisely how I am in violation of UN policies? I've looked over everything that I can find, and don't see any conflicts. Am I just dense, or what?

Sure would be nice, if there were a clause at the end of that statement, saying that "You are in violation of article unpty-squatch, requiring that all school age children be banned from gambling in casinos." Then it would be very clear what needs fixing, if I agree to fix it.

...having just joined the UN I got this telegram:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Compliance Ministry
Received: 2 days ago Laws have been enacted to bring the Empire of Alex II into compliance with the United Nations "Rights and Duties of UN States" resolution.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

Is that the UN COMPLIANCE MINISTRY? what the f---? my laws are my laws, no? i thought the UN was about external politics?

If you join the UN, does this mean you have to conform to some bullshit UN template of the ideal state?!? what is the scope for diversity? exploring the potentials of different political systems? I am interested in having an influence on international affairs but I am certainly not willing to give up my precious sovereignty.

unfortunately, the UN in this case does, even though it shouldnt, effect national sovereignty.

it sucks, but its one of the prices u have to pay to be in the UN
but just get bak at it by putting in ur own proposal and try to change things.

or if u really hate it, resign and ull be completely independent, but then u cant controll a region.

Enough already.

DubyaShrubland, good point. What the telegram actually means is that wherever you were in violation of the resolution, you are now not in violation of the resolution. That mightn't make sense, but I think you get the general drift.

Alex II, this topic will be locked due to your incessant and foul-mouthed diatribes. UN Resolutions are legally binding on nations - as per the FAQ which you claim to have read - and that's a situation which is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future.
Additionally, you are now officially warned for flaming and you will be deleted for a future offence. There is nothing wrong with debating a topic, indeed it is encouraged, but leaping and jumping around while swearing and calling people names because they disagree with you is not on. I was under the - clearly mistaken - impression that this was actually the United Nations, rather than some third-rate schoolyard. Clearly it is a schoolyard and as such needs to be treated like one.