NationStates Jolt Archive

Frisbeeteria would like to offer this preliminary draft of a new UN proposal.

A Proposal to recognize English as the Official Diplomatic Language of the NationStates United Nations

Here in the lands of NationStates we hear the melodic sound of thousands of different languages being spoken. Such diversity adds to the richness of our world. In the Halls of the UN, multiple languages can cause cacophony and discord. Here, where the power of the written and spoken word carries such weight to all member nations, we should strive as an organization for the greatest degree of clarity and precision.

Therefore, let it be resolved that all Proposals, as presented for the approval of UN members and Regional Delegates, be written in the English language.

Notes:
We do not call for a requirement that native languages be discarded, nor ban them from these halls and forums. This resolution is limited to the languages of the proposals themselves. Should any non-English speaker wish to make a proposal, let him request translation in these forums, in his native language, in hopes that another member nation might assist him in presenting his proposal in English. Failure to follow this resolution will result in neither penalty nor sanction, only the fact that most Delegates will be unable to read it to approve it.

Recommended coding:
Description: A resolution to increase democratic freedoms.
Category: The Furtherment of Democracy
Strength: Mild

This concept started in a discussion here (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=121656).

We enthusiastically request all comments, criticisms, arguments for, arguments against, and anything we haven't thought to include. Phrasing and grammar are fair game for criticism.

We will monitor this topic and make changes from time to time, resubmitting drafts until we either have a great proposal or decide to abandon the project. It will NOT be submitted as a proposal for at least a week to allow as many nations as possible to comment.

Reposting the thread that lead up to this:

I don't think the problem is the resolutions, the problem is the morons that interpret them.
You're forgetting who and what you are, Centropolis. We're presumably politicans and diplomats, and words are the tools of our trade. It's important that we use them correctly and precisely if we are to accurately represent the intent of this game.

Look around the site and see what is going on. Ask yourself if Francos Spain is rules-lawyering with his dictatorial control of the Pacific. Ask whether Danakar is rules-lawyering with his anti-religion "UN Proposals". Joccia and Galdania are role-playing the loopholes in the Euthanasia proposal quite cleverly, in my opinion. It's a controversial issue, and they've done an excellent job of arousing strong opinion.

There are some who use the English language well on this site, and others who don't. The ones who write well tend to get the most responses because they're entertaining and/or informative. The poor writers get flamed or ignored. If that encourages a poor writer to work on his style, then I'd say NationStates has accomplished a worthy goal right there.

You are ... making the assumption that everyone on the site has English as their first language.
Not at all. I quite specifically stated that "There are some who use the English language well on this site" This IS an English language site, though there are most certainly regions and forums in other languages. I won't embarass myself trying my poor Dutch and German on those boards, though I do enjoy trying to read them. The Slavic languages I can't begin to decipher, but they look purty.

My father is a native Nederlander. The Netherlands is a small country and not many outsiders speak the native language well. In acknowledgement of that fact, the Dutch are among the finest linguists on the planet. They know that to communicate with the world beyond their borders, it is they who need to adapt, not the world. And they've done so damned well.

The international language of diplomacy in NationStates is English. That's a fact. If you want to be understood by the vast majority of members on this board, you will post in the UN forum in English. If your native language is French or German or Spanish, you're certainly welcome to practice your language skills here. If you're not understood, it's a clear message that you need to work on your English skills.

As a nation virulently opposed to the recent acts enacted by the UN, my country was forced to withdraw from this august body. However, it is clear that there are some members who do intend to reform it and bring it back to its glory days.

The English language is a pain in the butt. I hereby demand that all nations speak the language of Itakeitall in all further UN discussions for my personal ease. We speak @!%$ *&^

Feel free to ask for translation guides

Regardless of the nature of the original language of the site, there is no need to craft a resolution forcing, FORCING , all other nations to abide by it. I can tell you with absolute certainty that if this body does wish to force me to do anything of the sort, I will henceforth converse only in French (a language I personally do not favor, but can still manage) in protest. It is no right of yours to demand any such thing, nor is it your jurisdiction to overturn that most sacred of rights, Free Speech. If you cannot figure out a post in the language it is written in, feel free to improve your language skills.
I have a reputation as an excellent dog trainer. My method is simple - I learn from watching the animal what it is likely to do next anyway, and right before it acts I tell it to do so. The dog looks well trained and I look like a genius.

This board already uses English as its primary language. Why not take something that's already largely unquestioned and codify it as law? The RL UN has several Official Languages, but it started with the (then) universal diplomatic language of French. Now they offer translations in many languages, and their website is published in four of them.

We don't have their budget.

Salusa has already announced that NS will not be translated. I don't know about NS II. There is an existing topic called Translators wanted (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=104358), that exemplifies the volunteer nature I'm proposing. This proposal fulfills that need, but in a role-play sense.

I don't really understand your objection, unless it's sheer cussedness. If it's that, I DO understand. Perfectly. :)

Lubria sees little wrong with Frisbeeteria's mild proposal. It is nice to see a nation understand that not all UN Proposals be draconian in wording or force.

I believe the UN has also tried to create a universal language. How many esperanto speakers do we have in the room? Can I see a show of hands? Point taken. It's hard to get everyone on the same page, most of the boards are already on the same page. If only in the intreast of better communication and understanding, this resolution should be passed.

Frisbeeteria would like to offer this preliminary draft of a new UN proposal.

Recommended coding:
Description: A resolution to increase democratic freedoms.
Category: The Furtherment of Democracy
Strength: Mild[/color]

We enthusiastically request all comments, criticisms, arguments for, arguments against, and anything we haven't thought to include. Phrasing and grammar are fair game for criticism.

We will monitor this topic and make changes from time to time, resubmitting drafts until we either have a great proposal or decide to abandon the project. It will NOT be submitted as a proposal for at least a week to allow as many nations as possible to comment.

Thank you! We agree with the Lubrian opinion that it is nice to see a UN proposal that is having a "mild" strength.

The irony here is that this proposal and the other Frisbeeterian proposal both may have more long-term impact on the NationStates United Nations by focusing our future debates to substanstive issues.

It is also nice to see that some care was taking in crafting the category as well.

I hope to bring this proposal forward to the North Pacific as well.

Could we in fact revert back to Latin? I prefer the precise language, no mucking about language with all the thrill of a sliced cucumber. Latin became a political question in the middle ages (UK) with a change in the bible to English. Or better yet Chinese is spoken by the billion. I suppose taken to the vote the Chinese might scrape it? There will be no fudged articles, no misinterpretations, just the epic struggle to re educate half the nation.

Chinese is atrociously hard to learn and pronounce. Seriously, I'm a native speaker. There are tens of thousands of characters that need to be learned... Its a tonal language, which makes it very hard to pronounce for anybody who's not used to it.

The Rogue Nation of Greenspoint supports this proposal.

James Moehlman
Asst. Manager ico U.N. Affairs

Since in the real world Spanish is the offical language of more countries than any other, it seems the logical choice would be Spanish if a singular language is to be used.

English is a harsh and cumbersome language, has irregular verbs, and is not at all phonetic. People from different Englsh speaking countries even have trouble understanding one another.

Spanish, on the other hand, is a soft and non-agressive language, has regular verb conjugations and is entirely phonetic. Any citizen of any one of the dozens of Spanish speaking countries can not only understand one another, but can even communicate with those from Italian and Portugeese speaking countries.

A partir de este tiempo adelante, no tendria sentido mejor para que todos nosotros hable español?

The point however, is that a majority of this virtual community already speaks english. This is not a philisophical choice for a fake offical language for our fake UN.

Looks suspiciously like a Game Mechanics proposal...

Looks suspiciously like a Game Mechanics proposal...


That is what i first thought but it doesn't seem to change the game...much but i support it anyway :wink:

Free texas said
<Quote>
Spanish, on the other hand, is a soft and non-agressive language, has regular verb conjugations and is entirely phonetic. Any citizen of any one of the dozens of Spanish speaking countries can not only understand one another, but can even communicate with those from Italian and Portugeese speaking countries.
</quote>
Are you sure?. True. Spanish is spoken as it's read, so there's no trouble with pronunciation, but think of the drawbacks. There are a lot of conjugations (and a fair number of irregularities too) and words have gender,a real handicap for people studying Spanish. And communicating with italian and portuguese..... well, it's not so easy. people living in Spain even find it sometimes hard to communicate with spanish-talking people from south or central america .
On the other hand I'm completely supporting the idea of a "translation forum", where people can post their UN proposals in their native language and somebody will translate it into English in their spare time.(Taking into account the number of people here I find it hard to believe there isn't people fluent enough in both English and another language in this forum) Nevertheless, some sort of mechanism should be developed in order to avoid having some proposals translated several times

Looks suspiciously like a Game Mechanics proposal...
I don't see that at all. It doesn't mandate choice of language, doesn't sanction anyone who doesn't follow it, or attempt to modify the game in any way. It simply points out that those who don't follow this resolution probably won't see their proposals approved, and suggests alternatives.

Had I attempted to make English the International Language of NationStates and just stopped there, you would be correct.

Perhaps this: "...Delegates, be written in the English language."
could be changed to this: "...Delegates, should be written in the English language."

Looks suspiciously like a Game Mechanics proposal...
I don't see that at all. It doesn't mandate choice of language, doesn't sanction anyone who doesn't follow it, or attempt to modify the game in any way. It simply points out that those who don't follow this resolution probably won't see their proposals approved, and suggests alternatives.

Had I attempted to make English the International Language of NationStates and just stopped there, you would be correct.

So, how does saying that proposals should/must be written in English constitute "A resolution to increase democratic freedoms"?

The Confederacy of Caligatio fails to see the use of this proposal, as English is already the common language of the United Nations.

It would be much appreciated if the nation of Frisbeeteria could clarify what exactly this propsal drives to achieve that has not already been done.

Todd M.
President of the Confederacy of Caligatio

The proud nation of Bahgum, agrees that English should be the language of the UN. However, the resolution should make clear that the abomination that is 'US English' should be unacceptable, and that member states should take the time to learn to spell words such as 'colour', 'sulphur' and 'humour' properly. Furthermore, we do not accept the use of the words, 'butt' for 'bottom', or flashlight' for 'torch', as for 'fanny' that's a whole other moral issue.......

That's it for now, i'm off down t'pub.
Sithee!

So, how does saying that proposals should/must be written in English constitute "A resolution to increase democratic freedoms"?
It will further democracy within these chambers and in the laws that the UN distributes, Hack. Facilitated communications are one of the best tools of the democratic ideal, and a common language is certainly a facilitator of communications. Also, you are required to pick something in order to submit a proposal, and this was the closest one I could see. I'm not married to it, and would welcome alternate suggestions.

the resolution should make clear that the abomination that is 'US English' should be unacceptable
Have to disagree. Wat we r trying to mkae clear is that wile not jest ne1 can rite clearly in English, we can nonetheless recognize valid variants of the tongue. And equally, reject as unworthy the invalid variants.

English is already the common language of the United Nations
English is the common language, but it is not the official language of diplomacy.

It would be much appreciated if the nation of Frisbeeteria could clarify what exactly this propsal drives to achieve that has not already been done.
Ahhh, this is indeed the heart of the matter. It is the contention of the Frisbeeterian Delegation that not all proposals need to change the world. This is a small, mild, simple bit of housekeeping; mirroring most legislatures and organisations' need to self-police in the interest of clarity. I don't WANT it to do anything. We're TIRED of having huge decisions passed over our objections. This bit of relatively meaningless fluff would be a nice break.

The Allied States of Lesser Tyrannus tends to agree with the proposal at hand.

Metaphorically speaking, English as the official language of the NS UN is like making gasoline (petrol) the official fuel for vehicles. True, there may be more environmentally sound fuels, but if you pull into any gas station the world over, you'll find good ol' OPEC gasoline. Do we see Hydrogen powered cars used in some places? Yes. Solar? Again, yes. Horse and buggies? Absolutely! Are they used widely enough to warrant making them the rule, and not the exception? Not at all.
Worldwide, English is taught in more schools than any other language. It has surpassed French as the lingua franca. (According to Technology Research News, 70% of the "Internet content" is written in English, though only 44% of Net users speak English as a mother tongue.) There may be easier languages to learn, languages that are more precise, etc. But until the nature of the world changes, English seems to be the best overall choice. Especially for the NS UN. For goodness sake, there's no sanction nor penalty for "failure" to comply.

El Djere, Lord Praetor of Lesser Tyrannus
---
If you want to talk non-english net use, I'll talk it
http://www.translate-to-success.com/internet-language-use.html

Ahhh, this is indeed the heart of the matter. It is the contention of the Frisbeeterian Delegation that not all proposals need to change the world.

The Confederacy of Caligatio agrees on this matter. Most of the issues that have "changed the world" have been ones that Caligatio did not support.


This is a small, mild, simple bit of housekeeping; mirroring most legislatures and organisations' need to self-police in the interest of clarity. I don't WANT it to do anything. We're TIRED of having huge decisions passed over our objections. This bit of relatively meaningless fluff would be a nice break.

Unfortunately, much like Caligatio would not support a proposal just because it couldn't find any negatives, we will not support a proposal just because it "would be a nice break."

Though not all resolutions change the world, some kind of relevance truly is necessary.

English is the common language. Why adopt it as the official language? What's the necessity?

The sovereign nation of Caligatio has supported Frisbeeteria since its beginnings, and especially concerning the Rights and Duties of U.N. Nations bill. However, we still fail to see this particular bill's relevance and cite again that a bill proposed just because it "would be a nice break" cannot be supported.

Todd M.
President of the Confederacy of Caligatio

The United Soviet Socialist States of Kholodsk humbly submits the following modification to the proposed official language draft:

It has been noted that other delegates are promoting languages other than English as possible choices for the official diplomatic language of the UN. Kholodsk suggests, based on the reasoning of several of the other delegates, that Russian be adopted as the official diplomatic language. Russian is spelled completely phonetically and follows a logical structure. It has only four verb tenses, and unlike Spanish, there are ten irregular conjugations in the entire language (it seems that nearly half the verbs in the Spanish language are irregular). Grammar is similar to English word order and requires those used to Spanish and English grammar to learn relatively little more. Pronunciation in Russian also borrows from French, especially the "zh" sound (which has no equivalent in English). Many languages in the world other than English make use of gender, as does Russian. Like Latin, it also makes use of cases, but the cases are six in number and specific in use (note that German also makes us of cases). Word order is a factor, so ambiguity is cut to a minimum. Also, many words are based off of root combinations that make their literal meaning easy to understand even if the word itself is unfamiliar. Such precision allows the UN to clearly communicate its ideas and goals to its emmber nations in a logical and easy to spell and read manner. Whilst cyrillic seems alien to those used to the latin alphabet, it is very easy to learn and no letters make as many sounds as the latin letters do in English. X, as it is superfluous, does not exist (although the character does exist and produces a sound much like the Spanish "j"), nor does C when S and K already exist (also note, the cyrillic character C is the same as a Latin S). A letter makes either one or two sounds, and that is all it is possible of making, unlike english where vowels can have up to five sounds.

For these reasons, Kholodsk advocates that the UN select Russian as the official language of diplomacy.

((OOC: of course, as a native speaker of English, I'm just fine using English as many people understand it and it is becoming a sort of 'common tounge' on the internet, at least in my experience and opinion. I also agree that a lot of the evils of US English need to be cut out and burned at the stake as well as the horrid abbreviations and internet instant message slang. And that's coming from an avid internet user in the US!))

At its heart, this proposal is a good idea.

As written, there seems to be much objection.

I agree with this proposal on one key point:

The NS UN needs to agree on a single language in which the delegates should communicate and in which proposals should be written. This would improve matters by providing more clarity to what the proposals mean.

If someone is much more comfortable writing in Spanish, let them. However, for the (seemingly) vast majority of non-Spanish speakers/readers who are part of the NS UN, along with any proposal drafted in that (or any other) language should come a translation, to English, so that it can be read by all.

A volunteer corps of translation assistants would be of great use.

Despite agreeing with the heart of the proposal, I would have to vote against it, should it come up in its current form. As it stands, it really does nothing to solve the problem and has actually caused more arguments along the way.

Also, until the Good Grammar resolution is invalidated (depite that it cannot be truly enforced), it is the "rule" of the NS UN, and every attempt to adhere to it should be made, lest the NS UN be shown to be a defunct and entirely powerless body.