NationStates Jolt Archive

Human beings, by nature, are pattern based beings. When a child sees an other child behaving badly, the observer just sees the action, and the immediate result. A young child does not readily logically deduce ramifications or causes. A young child simply sees, and then does.

I wish my ambassador to propose that logic be taught in the earliest stages of education and that open debate classes be provided in all grades.

The educational framework listed below is a suggestion.

Reading and writing first.
Logic alongside grammar with more reading practice.
Math, composition, debate and an elective.
Advanced math, Critical thinking, government, literature, composition, and an elective.

A nation's greatest asset is it's people. Don't let them be idiots.

Illaria holds that it is not the realm of the UN to decide such things.

Even in that case, we inquire as to what form of logic the ambassador from Rational Humans was referring to. Logic is a big field.

Although I am not in the UN, and that the UN would find it difficult to enforce such a proposal, it is a good idea.

Illaria: it would start with simple expressional based logic:

If P is false: does that make the expression: (P and Q are true) false?

What is the denial of that expression?
How to recognize a tautology.


Simple, basic logic first, and then a move towards general fallicies and practice spotting and fighting them.

This is one of the best resolutions that I've seen in a long time, (that doesn't say much), I think the only people who can try to squash a resolution like this are those who disagree with educating the masses in order to maintain blanket ignorance throughout their nation. The Democratic States of The Narcissist likes the proposal and says gung-ho, finally a step in the right direction.

this proposal shouldn't effect countries whose citizens do not have the right to vote as logic would merely be a form of cultural torture to these citizens. :D

This is one of the best resolutions that I've seen in a long time, (that doesn't say much), I think the only people who can try to squash a resolution like this are those who disagree with educating the masses in order to maintain blanket ignorance throughout their nation. The Democratic States of The Narcissist likes the proposal and says gung-ho, finally a step in the right direction.

this proposal shouldn't effect countries whose citizens do not have the right to vote as logic would merely be a form of cultural torture to these citizens. :D

Albion Soviets agrees entirely with the above statement. In fact the idea makes us smile all over. Logic is not only indespensible, but it is life enriching and, dare we say it, fun.

Hear hear!

Education is well and good, but micromanaging EVERY nation's educational system across all cultures borders and military line is silly for a UN resolution.

That aside, I think that logic is a very difficult thing to teach at young ages. Explicit logic really isnt something a child should have to grasp while learning the fundamentals of language and math...

The Earth and Beyond agress that most of the subject you mentioned are indeed top priority in edcution. Although, thats only our opinion, the real people that choose what is important, is the person who studies himself. Now, for there is a problem of kids not knowing what they really want till around 12-18 age by average, some basic must-study subjects should be chosen for them, by the government and the parents together.
So, the obvious ones will be basic maths, read/write, language, history of your country / of the world etc etc, that and the school should supply subjects that the student doesn't have to learn, from painting to astronomy, the students could go for few try lessons, and found out themselves, and what they really interested in.
All this studying should be done in a 5 year period, 6 to 11. Then, there should be education institution for every subject a person could think of, and it should be well funded. Everyone at that age should choose what he wishes to learn, for success comes with will - if you don't like what you learn, less chances you'll do well at it.

Education should be a national-level issue though. Different leaders want different things from their people.

that's the best proposal like ever
period

...history of your country / of the world...

History is a subject of hearsay and opinions. Over the years, capitalist corperations and propiganda have tainted the truths. Children in the USA are taught at a vunerable age that their forfathers were infallible role models (where jefferson was a sex fiend, washington was a coward, and adams was a rage-o-holic). These poor students were also spoon fed the ideas that they helped the indiginous people by teaching them how to grow corn when in fact the forigners slaughtered the native americans after they learned from them how to survive in the new land.

History books are full of lies, making them wholy worthless.


...the school should supply subjects that the student doesn't have to learn, from painting to astronomy, the students could go for few try lessons, and found out themselves, and what they really interested in...

Any student that does not excell at rational thinking is a liability to your country. In the Commonwealth of Rational People, the uneducated have only one right: the right to core education.

Knowing how to paint or weave baskets is not considered a rational thinking skill. It is considered a diversion and is provided not by the government, but by contract work that is administered the government at the demand of the people.

An uninformed citizen cannot vote or hold positions of marginal importance, instead they're potential damage is restricted to factory work or labor camps.

The best way to avoid stupid mistakes is to make educated decisions.

Concerning history and historical accuracy:
Information flow is a societal and cultural function... The control of it is a gray area.

BUT, calling History books wholly worthless is nothing more than dramatics. There's value in all information.

Concerning rational thinking:
Sometimes, logic is blind to the simplest thing. Some of the blindest people are the most logical, as logic will grant you only unalienable truths in an ideal world. While it makes logical sense to have the highest possible economic power, it may not be practical.

Logic alone cannot rule decisions. There is no practical element to the logical.

I was refering to 'basic' history, you're 6-11 years old, you need to know who were the presidents of your country, and basic knowledge about the world wars. Ofcourse, learning detailed history, is one of the thing you choose afterwards.
Besides, history is supposed to be FACTS, but ofcourse History is always written by the winners, and it's never truely correct or shows the all picture. But thats all we have.

Concerning unknowns:
When you someone is not provided with an entire account of a situation, then that person will not understand fully the consequences of his actions.

Taking such blind steps is not only irrational, but can potentially be the worst thing one can do.

Take an example from America: Around the 1990's, El Salvador had a non democratic government, demanding representation and a new economic model, the FMLN (rebels, forgot their name) was forced to resort to gurilla tactics to make themselves heard. In retaliation to these attacks, El Salvador created death squads that attempted to follow Tzu's art of war to the letter: Destroy the will of the people. 70 thousand civilian and combatant deaths later, the FMLN had gaind marginal ground.
American representitives claimed they needed to support the original El Salvador government in times of social unrest, effectivly criminalizing a division of people who would gladly throw away their guns if given a vocal power in their corrupt government.

Most government funded classrooms never get to hear the side of the FMLN, they only outline the civil unrest through national capitalist spin. The school texts mainly pin the unrest upon religious differences and communism, which were not the primary goal of the FMLN. The primary goal of the FMLN was to restore the power back to the people, to have a democracy.

In effect, the "Push to preserve democracy and freedom" was doing the exact opposite: entitling dictatorships and repressing revolution.

However, it is agreed that not all history books are condemneble, but a large enough percentage of them are to scrap the entire forced education of the subject until a definitive timeline is discerned (which may never happen).

The Truth is that not everything is logical. Take for example the book Catch 22, in it a man is forced into behaving in a continually illogical manner. He is forced to fly missions because he has no legal way to leave. The only option left to him is to behave in an insane manner to be allowed to leave. The only way that he can convince his superiors that he is insane is to continue flying missions. To ask to leave shows that he retains his sanity.

Also basket weaving and Painting are important parts of basic childhood skills. These skills promote creativity and allow an outlet of self expression. These skills teach about color choice, patterns, style, and composition. And they are the foundation of later skills such as commertial art which is used in advertising, and if you know how much people spend on advertisements at the superbowl then I dont need to go into why that's important. Said skills are also used in CGI which is used in computer games and movies. These skills are used in any kind of design, architecture, interior design, clothes design, furniture, etc.

Sincerely,
Yossarian Schmidt, Minister of Education
Queendom of Zirconlandia

Double post, sorry my computer is slow today... :lol:

The Truth is that not everything is logical. Take for example the book Catch 22, in it a man is forced into behaving in a continually illogical manner. He is forced to fly missions because he has no legal way to leave. The only option left to him is to behave in an insane manner to be allowed to leave. The only way that he can convince his superiors that he is insane is to continue flying missions. To ask to leave shows that he retains his sanity.

Sadly we must admit that not everything is logical. However, what you fail to see in the book Catch 22 (I've been reading it for a while... why havent I finished it? because I cannot stand to read more than a few pages a week from that horrid book... but I am reading it) is that the entire story line is based on making fun of the ill thought out things.

The illogical themes that he keeps attacking (the girl that wont marry him because he loves her, the army's twisted stance on sanity, milo's blinding obsession with capitalism, and the superior officer's disregard for both responsibility and sanctity of human life) are not unavoidable. With propper education and lesson's in logic, all of these things can be avoided.

If anything, the disaster of a book Catch 22 (the author's first attempt... and a poor one at that) cries for everything my country stands for. Education, socialism, and personal representation.

Also basket weaving and Painting are important parts of basic childhood skills. These skills promote creativity and allow an outlet of self expression. These skills teach about color choice, patterns, style, and composition. And they are the foundation of later skills such as commertial art which is used in advertising, and if you know how much people spend on advertisements at the superbowl then I dont need to go into why that's important. Said skills are also used in CGI which is used in computer games and movies. These skills are used in any kind of design, architecture, interior design, clothes design, furniture, etc.


Basket weaving and painting are diversions. They fail to produce anything of any serious practical value. If we want to hold something, we'll pay a mould carver and a chemist to make a bucket. However, people should be able to do as they wish, and classes such as basket weaving and painting and such would not be abolished, but simply not directly funded by the government. The whole concept of paying for someone to make something that carries little to no practical value is very poor business. But if the people are willing to spend their lesiure time and money for such things, and other people are willing to provide it, then our government will contract out the work.

Also basket weaving and Painting are important parts of basic childhood skills. These skills promote creativity and allow an outlet of self expression. These skills teach about color choice, patterns, style, and composition. And they are the foundation of later skills such as commertial art which is used in advertising, and if you know how much people spend on advertisements at the superbowl then I dont need to go into why that's important. Said skills are also used in CGI which is used in computer games and movies. These skills are used in any kind of design, architecture, interior design, clothes design, furniture, etc.


Basket weaving and painting are diversions. They fail to produce anything of any serious practical value. If we want to hold something, we'll pay a mould carver and a chemist to make a bucket. However, people should be able to do as they wish, and classes such as basket weaving and painting and such would not be abolished, but simply not directly funded by the government. The whole concept of paying for someone to make something that carries little to no practical value is very poor business. But if the people are willing to spend their lesiure time and money for such things, and other people are willing to provide it, then our government will contract out the work.

Logic and creativity must be balanced. By teaching basket weaving, the child will learn basic patterns and manual skill, even though they may not be applied, ever. Painting encourages free thought and creativity, necessary to apply logic in ways different than those already set. Logic is but a tool, but creativity will allow us to use it. Consider children's play. Fantasyland is extremely useless, but it encourages growth in the brain and keeps the child's attention better than mathematical equations. It's not totally useless to foster creativity, and government funding will at least help.

I agree that children need better education, and that logic will help greatly, but I believe that this is not a UN decision and that there are limits as to how much logic should be taught.

While I whole-heartedly agree with the analysis promoted by the representative from National Delegates, the nation of Sophista must side with Illaria and others on this issue. It is not the realm of the United Nations to shape the world in the image of its majority. Simply because an idea works in your country doesn't mean it will work in another, and lets not even get into the question of a nation's sovereign right to educate its citizens as they please.

Let the nations choose their own course. If they don't want to teach logic, so be it. If anything, it makes the citizens of countries where logic is appreciated that much better in comparison.

Sincerely yours,
Daniel M. Hillaker
Minister of Foreign Affairs

The Rogue Nation of Greenspoint sees this as yet another proposal where someone has found a good idea for their nation and decided it MUST THEREFORE be a good idea for every nation in the U.N. We find this statement illogical. Societies, cultures and views on education are different from nation to nation, showing that the idea put forth in the proposal not only won't be welcome in some nations, but won't be a good idea in others.

We cannot support this proposal.

While we agree that logic is something that seems to be sadly lacking in the educational curricula of some nations, others, such as The Rogue Nation of Greenspoint, makes sure that it is indeed taught to our citizens at the appropriate time.

James Moehlman
Asst. Manager ico U.N. Affairs

I wonder; in the situation of having this UN and its 'games mechanics' limitations, if the UN does not shape the world to its view, whats the point? Close international co-ordination could just as easily be achieved by a 'free-for-all' international debating forum. I like this idea, and think the UN should be more hard-line than it is.

I still think it's a poor idea