NationStates Jolt Archive

These are 2 websites I found. Regardless of how this vote turns out, I ask you all to at least look at these sites and become aware of the real consequences of prostitution.

http://www.feminista.com/archives/v1n5/depasquale.html

Quote from the website:

Prostitution: what is it? It is the use of a woman's body for sex by a man, he pays money, he does what he wants. The minute you move away from what it really is, you move away from prostitution into the world of ideas. You will feel better; you will have a better time; it is more fun; there is plenty to discuss, but you will be discussing ideas, not prostitution. Prostitution is not an idea. It is the mouth, the vagina, the rectum, penetrated usually by a penis, sometimes hands, sometimes objects, by one man and then another and then another and then another and then another. That's what it is.

http://www.prostitutionrecovery.org/how_prostitution_works.html

Quote from the website:

CONCLUSION

People who have had luckier lives, as well as those who profit from the sex industry in some way, frequently refer to prostitution and pornography as "victim-less crimes". They point to a tiny fraction of sex workers who actually might be involved by choice. They selectively read history to find some tiny minority, somewhere, at some time, who gained something in the sex business.

The very selectiveness of their attention indicates that, on some level, they know that for almost everyone, involvement in the sex industry is a terrible misfortune.

As many an old cop will say, "Anyone who thinks prostitution is a victimless crime, hasn't seen it up close."

These are 2 websites I found. Regardless of how this vote turns out, I ask you all to at least look at these sites and become aware of the real consequences of prostitution.

http://www.feminista.com/archives/v1n5/depasquale.html

Quote from the website:

Prostitution: what is it? It is the use of a woman's body for sex by a man, he pays money, he does what he wants. The minute you move away from what it really is, you move away from prostitution into the world of ideas.


Don't wish to be bit nitpicking but there is such a thing as a male prostitute. Visit a public toliet in a quaint little town called 'London'. The writers of this site will find a fair few. I have not quoted the rest because it is not anything that comes as a revelation. The point is this. For many nations (has never been for mine, so this resolution made no difference) it works like this: woman turns tricks. Woman gets caught. woman gets arrested. Woman either spends a night in the cells, is prosocuted and fined, and I'm sure in more authoritarian nations, gets serious jail time or worse.

The result? well it certainly hasn't proved to be a detterrent now has it? Women and men suffer infinitely. They suffer in the first instance by the dehumanising act of making a commodity not out of their labour, but out of themselves. The suffer in a secondry way by not being accorded protection under the law. They suffer thirdly by not being able to unionise and affiliate to union organisations, to bargain for better conditions. They suffer forthly by beoming part of the criminal fraternity. Jail, pimps, fines, pimps, jail. That so far has protected no one.

Perhaps to keep prostitution illegal would mean opening the floodgates to more prostitutes. I hardly think so given that it is not the most attractive of occupations. If it does then at the very least, these prostitutes can be protected by the law and not prosecuted by it. At the very least, money spent on fighting the always losing battle of keeping prostitutes off the streets can be spent on programmes to find these men and women better employment options if they so wish. At the very least, sex workers can think of themselves as the same as, and the equal to, any other worker, with all the rights that entails. In our nation that means the right to form a union and affiliate to Albion Trades Union Congress, who have a significant amount of delegtates to our soviets.

I do not doubt for a moment that prostition is dangerous to both body and mind. I do not doubt that it is morally dubious to say the least, that a society should prodcuce women and men who have to sell themselves as products to be consumed. But the state, infexible and clumsy as it usually is, will not make society less harmful and more moral by criminaling those we seek to protect.

Oh no it's not nit-picking, I am aware of male prostitution. There is alot less source material out there on male prostitution. I think male prostitution is an issue that is often overlooked, and I assure you London is not the only city in England with that public toilet situation. Nottingham has quite the reputation too.

Legalising prostitution will not solve any problems, it's the wrong approach. Prostitutes are not the criminals, they are victims of the crime of prostitution that the clients are committing. They are the real criminals and to legalise prostitution means legalising their right to buy sex.

I oppose this resolution but I'd support a resolution that states the following.

1). Prostitution is a criminal offence.

2). The offence of prostitution is committed by the client not the prostitute.

3). Prostitutes are victims of prostitution, not perpetrators.

Btw, I just realised that when I said 'quaint litt'e town' it looks really snotty. I was trying turn London into an imaginary place...literally a quaint little town (because in Nation States, it doesn't exist). I know it looks pompous and horrible but it wasn't meant to.

Your idea sounds interesting. I would certainly give it some thought.

IF this resolution passes I will seek to introduce an amendment making the act of purchasing sex illegal.

So while being a prostitute would be legal, using one (and using is the word I'd use) would be illegal.

Sometimes a problem must be solved by looking at it from another perspective, in this case focusing on the client instead of the prostitute.

Like the "drug war" prostitution is not a "supply" problem where we need to stop women from becoming prostitutes. It's a "demand" problem because men want sex. And they are willing to pay money for it, hence the demand.

An industry is going to be created any time a demand arises for a product/service, whether it's legal or not. It's just the illegal ones create an underground black market whereas the legal ones are regulated, cleaner, taxable, and cheaper.

Stop the men willing to pay for sex, and the problem of prostitution ends in a day. (Similarly stop people from wanting drugs, the "drug war" ends).

It's not about supply, it's about demand. And if there is a demand, there will ALWAYS be someone willing to feed the demand, and make money doing it.

People who have had luckier lives, as well as those who profit from the sex industry in some way, frequently refer to prostitution and pornography as "victim-less crimes". They point to a tiny fraction of sex workers who actually might be involved by choice. They selectively read history to find some tiny minority, somewhere, at some time, who gained something in the sex business.

Precisely... yet none of the sex deprived little kids realise that. They think every prostitute is Julia Roberts and they want to be doing it.

Precisely... yet none of the sex deprived little kids realise that. They think every prostitute is Julia Roberts and they want to be doing it.

Second time I have read that statement and the second time I have failed to understand it. Do you mean the proposer, evryone who had defended the proposal, or just some nations that have supported the resolution on the grounds that prsotitution is fun. If you m,ean the latter, then you should name them. I certainly would. Cuts down on confusion.

If on the other hand you mean that only a sex deprived child could possibly support the resolution who believes that every prostitute is Julia Roberts, then you are merely indulging in hyperbole and empty rhetoric.

[edit]
Having re-read the proposal, I find that it does not advocate prostituion as a worthwhile profession. It points out that prostition is an established fact-- that criminalisation has not made it go away and that the money spent on getting sex workers off the streets could be spent on poverty relief. therefore you clearly could not have meant the original proposer. If nations are voting on the resolution on the basis of what the proposal says, then you cannot be referring to the vast bulk of them, at least not on face value. So the question becomes even more pertinent: who do you mean.

If this resolution passes, La Habana will consider leaving the UN. because im shocked and apalled that this resolution even reached quorum in the first place, and it shows how immoral and corrupt that the UN has become.

If this resolution passes, La Habana will consider leaving the UN. because im shocked and apalled that this resolution even reached quorum in the first place, and it shows how immoral and corrupt that the UN has become.

Agreed!

The democratic states of Hirota would also consider resigning from the UN!

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/hirota.jpgThe Democratic States of Hirota (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=hirota)

Okay bye bye. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

Okay bye bye. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

we said consider, try reading before you make idiotic statements.

The only reason the hirotan government would remain in the UN is in the vain hope that common sense would prevail and that some degree of decency would take hold amongst the majority. You don't encourage the growth of this hope into reality.


http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/hirota.jpgThe Democratic States of Hirota (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=hirota)

@Hirota - just because New Eriu is not making good arguements or just being daft, doesn't mean he/she is wrong. I disagree with your views and personally think prostitution SHOULD be legalised, but ... you will lose all chance of making your views known and education of the 'other side' if you leave the UN. Please stay and debate.

@ New Eriu - Come on mate. Surly you can make a better case than that. After all, you're in the right ;)

Prostituition is not the oldest profession: Hunters or Gatherers were actually the oldest.
Pwople didn't start selling themselves till after cities started because you spent the whole day looking for supplies.
Now maybe they mean Sex is the oldest activity, but that doesn't help Prostitutions case since they are selling something without a license.

Prostituition is not the oldest profession: Hunters or Gatherers were actually the oldest.
Pwople didn't start selling themselves till after cities started because you spent the whole day looking for supplies.
Now maybe they mean Sex is the oldest activity, but that doesn't help Prostitutions case since they are selling something without a license.
Women and men who could not provide for themselves probably sold sex for things they needed. Food, clothing materials, whatever. Accepting money or objects for sex is prostitution.

@Hirota - just because New Eriu is not making good arguements or just being daft, doesn't mean he/she is wrong.

No, it just means he doesn't know the facts behind it, along with the majority of those nations who have voted in favour of this proposal.

I disagree with your views and personally think prostitution SHOULD be legalised, but ... you will lose all chance of making your views known and education of the 'other side' if you leave the UN. Please stay and debate.

There is little point debating to a group which (in the majority) appears to be morally corrupt, ignorant induviduals, who probably spend most of their time wishing prostitution was legal so they would not have to resort to imagining that every woman in the world is just like those that are in their "magazines" under their presidental bed instead of having any understanding of the real world. I saw one comment posted on here which said something along the lines of "besides, most of them are nymphos anyway so they are gagging for it" which perfectly sums up how deluded some of our fellow delegates really are, how ignorant and immature they are.

You might have valid reasons for supporting prostitution, but I'm pretty certain the majority have no idea of the facts behind the case, and I'm pretty certain the resolution was proposed by someone who has no ideas of the facts.

What is the point debating with idiots?

http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/hirota.jpgThe Democratic States of Hirota (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/target=display_nation/nation=hirota)

These...um.."studies" to which you gave us the links are about prostitution in countries in which it is illegal. We are talking about legalizing prostitution (like in the Netherlands). The act of legalizing and controlling it brings about a different dynamic. Women will be in more control than they have ever been.

'nuff said

I disagree with your views and personally think prostitution SHOULD be legalised, but ... you will lose all chance of making your views known and education of the 'other side' if you leave the UN. Please stay and debate.
Voof-land will stay and debate, but will not remain in the UN. Because if it did, then it would have to accept this corrupt legistlation which oversteps the bounds of the UN and imposes upon our morality, with no tolerance for our diversity.
We are eager to debate, but we will not let our rights be trampled upon.

Begin Transcript: Teakland’s Address to the Members of the United Nations

(Quincy Chiang, a short, slim, Chinese man with long black hair approaches the podium, a slim brown-covered book in his hand. He re-adjusts the microphone, pulls a set of rounded reading glasses from inside his emerald-green suit, and begins to address the gathered world leaders.)

On behalf of the humble people of Teakland, I humbly submit to the members of the United Nations that the Legalize Prostitution proposal is yet another proposal that will only serve to create another division in our organization. I am well aware that people who disagree with U.N. proposals have the opportunity to leave if they see fit to do so, and therefore hope to avoid the “If you don’t like it, why don’t you just leave” argument. I will not approach this from the perspective of the “People should be allowed to do what they want with their own bodies” argument, because regardless of whether you or I like to think so, there are religious nations that would disagree. And I will not approach it from the “Leave nations their own sovereignty” angle, because to belong to a body such as this, you give up part of your sovereignty in the process. I therefore ask the U.N. delegates to open their U.N. Member Charters to the first page, as I read what is written there. The United Nations has four stated aims:

“To maintain international peace and security…” Obviously, legalizing prostitution does not fall into this category.

“To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace.” It could be argued that legalizing prostitution would be part of self-determination, true, but this passage refers to the friendly relations among nations, and so the proposal does not fall into this category.

“To achieve international cooperation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion.” Here is the central problem with this argument. Is the ability to use your body as a business a necessary human right? Is it a fundamental freedom? I would argue that it is neither, especially considering the current manifestation of prostitution in many countries today, with controlling pimps and victimized prostitutes. It is implied, of course, that a legalized prostitution would be problem free; all we need to do is legalize prostitution and the corrupt power structures and abuses will go away. That is not the case, of course, and what we need are guidelines, rules, and punishments to enforce those rules. Sadly, this proposal accomplishes none of this. Without these rules, less concerned nations will be able to ignore prostitution as they have in the past, but this time with the added benefits of being able to tax yet another business. I, for one, do not want to be partnered with any nation that will abuse its young people for monetary gain. That seems to me to be rather contrary to the stated aims of this organization.

Finally, the last aim of the U.N. “To be a center for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.” I include this mostly for accuracy, but also to emphasize the need for harmony amongst our membership, as this has been sadly lacking recently, in my opinion.

I thank you for your time.

End Transcript

*applause erupts from many households all over Voof-land*

Well said!

Prostitution should be legalized for a simple reason - liberalism. The body of the Prostitution is their own. And it is your choice to do whatever you want with it, just like you can sell your furniture, or any other thing which is your own for that matter. Although, prostitution should be taken care of, the Authorities should take care of it happening only by the self will of the Prostitute, and not by force. This, and the Prostitute may put her own boundries and rules for what the 'customer' can do with their body, and any person whom will not follow this rules should be considered as a criminal, and his punishment should be equale to the punishment of a rape case.


-The Earth and Beyond
'If you wanna do it right, do it yourself'

Look people, this whole debate is mis-directed. Some good points have been made, but the issue has not been properly framed. Policy is designed to address a problem. We must look not at the morality of the law, but the effect.

First, we must define the problem. It seems this group has identified two. Some think that prostitution is immoral. Others fear that prostitution laws target the victim. Contrary to what some people have purported, these do not logically lead to contraditory policy outcomes. Read on.

For those of you that have been arguing that prostitution is immoral, you are missing the point. I don't think many people will disagree that prostitition is an illness of society and a harm to the those who must engage in it. However, we are not debating morality (or at least we shouldn't be). We should be debating how policy will or will not address the problem.

Here's a question (think long and hard). Has making prostitution illegal prevented it? How about making drugs illlegal? What about abortion pre Roe-v. Wade. If you are concerned with prostitution, ask yourself what policy will actually address the problem.

It is clear, however, the prostitution laws do punish the victim, which is most often (though not exclusively) and women forced into prostitution because of poverty.

The first clear policy choice to decriminalize prostitution. Then we can stop prosecuting the victims and begin to create better social programs to actually deal with the root causes of prostitution.

These...um.."studies" to which you gave us the links are about prostitution in countries in which it is illegal. We are talking about legalizing prostitution (like in the Netherlands). The act of legalizing and controlling it brings about a different dynamic. Women will be in more control than they have ever been.

'nuff said


Exactly! Thankyou. We are not legalising pimps, we are not legalising physical abuse. We are simply legalising prostitution, which is the act of "performing sex acts for hire" (dictionary) - legitimate prostitutes in _Myopia_ receive all the protection of our worker's and individual's rights legislation, including the UN resolutions banning slavery and the one concerning union rights. If something is done to a prostitute which was not agreed as part of the transaction - for instance if she is beaten or attacked - the client is prosecuted as would be a client of a normal business who attacked an employee of the business. Prostitutes in _Myopia_ are also protected from diseases by contraception legislation and an insistence on regular testing for STDs.


When this resolution passes, simply add in similar regulations in your own nations, and there you have it - safe, healthy, legitimate prostitution where the prostitute is in control.


To Teakland:

Those are the stated aims of the UN in Reality (a NationStates simulator game played avidly by many politicians in _Myopia_ in their spare time). However, there has been no such declaration in NationStates.

Indeed, within the confines of how NationStates functions, it is difficult for the UN to deal with many of those issues, especially war and peacekeeping, which is not even technically recognised by NS.

And since we don't have international problems (because our nations are all very separate - the only real links between them are the regions and the UN, except those role-played, which aren't recognised by NS), the UN can't really be involved much in those unless we all agree that certain problems exist in the game world.

As to harmony - a political simulator game where everyone agreed would be extremely dull. It is in our interest to make the game more lively by dealing with controversial ideas that will spark debates (not slagging matches).

(having said all this in support of the prostitution resolution, an OOC comment - I would never buy or sell sex, negating the "argument" that we're all sad-acts. I simply believe in the individual's right to sovereigty over his/her own body)

These...um.."studies" to which you gave us the links are about prostitution in countries in which it is illegal. We are talking about legalizing prostitution (like in the Netherlands). The act of legalizing and controlling it brings about a different dynamic. Women will be in more control than they have ever been.

'nuff said


Exactly! Thankyou. We are not legalising pimps, we are not legalising physical abuse. We are simply legalising prostitution, which is the act of "performing sex acts for hire" (dictionary) - legitimate prostitutes in _Myopia_ receive all the protection of our worker's and individual's rights legislation, including the UN resolutions banning slavery and the one concerning union rights. If something is done to a prostitute which was not agreed as part of the transaction - for instance if she is beaten or attacked - the client is prosecuted as would be a client of a normal business who attacked an employee of the business. Prostitutes in _Myopia_ are also protected from diseases by contraception legislation and an insistence on regular testing for STDs.

Yes, my point exactly. I agree completly. People here tend to think the moment they legalize Prostitute, they legalize the corruption in it, which isn't true. All your legalizing is the SELF WILL, of a man or a woman, to earn money in a way, that for some of you may like ridicolus - selling your body. All corruption about it, shall and will be remain illegal, no illegal trades, no pimps that enfroce their will on the Prostitute etc.

Prostitution is a type of slavery that is compelled on the women in the capitalist society, and, therefore, struggle against prostitution is vital to restore the humane respect of women in the society. In the present societies, poverty, lack of social assistance, legal and practical limitations on the way of women employment and, thus, in the way of their independence, male- chauvinistic attitude and the manner and behavior of men as privileged sex in the society are the causes of prostitution to be established, maintained and spread.
Uprooting the prostitution demands struggle against all of the above causes. Moreover, in order to fight against prostitution, the following undertakings are urgent. The government must support the victims of prostitution economically, and provide educational facilities and employment possibilities for them. Procurers must be prosecuted by law and be punished by severe sentences.
The Communist Republic of Europaland

OOC: All right, the first time I've ever replied to anything that anyone's said about my posts! It's going to be short and to the point (well, short for me).

Those are the stated aims of the UN in Reality (a NationStates simulator game played avidly by many politicians in _Myopia_ in their spare time). However, there has been no such declaration in NationStates. . . .
And since we don't have international problems (because our nations are all very separate - the only real links between them are the regions and the UN, except those role-played, which aren't recognised by NS), the UN can't really be involved much in those unless we all agree that certain problems exist in the game world.
Sorry about mixing reality and fantasy, but I got the link to the U.N. off the sticky, and simply assumed that if it was on the sticky, we were using it as a model.

As to harmony - a political simulator game where everyone agreed would be extremely dull. It is in our interest to make the game more lively by dealing with controversial ideas that will spark debates (not slagging matches).
My character is not saying that everyone should agree to be the same; that's not what harmony is, thats monotony. Harmony is about different views working together, and that's what the UN is supposed to be, real or otherwise. And frankly, as has been evidenced by every discussion thread I've ever read, people DON'T agree on things.


IC: The delegate from Teakland apologizes for the use of the "Reality" simulation codes of conduct; it was part of the package we recieved upon recieving U.N. membership. We did not realize that it was a humorous set of fake guidelines. We will post it in the office and all share a good laugh over it. We hope that this incident does not malign our reputation in international circles, and we request that our position on the debate is not weakened by it.

Doesn't anybody think of the customers of prostitutes? They are often overcharged for their services. The customer, as always, is the victim here.

Ofcourse, if it's legalized, their will be set a suitable price. For the moment it'll be recognized as a career, the price will more or less balance itself. For competition will be in this business just like between two companies, you can't let yourself overcharge, or no one will buy from you.

Okay here is a simple counter question for those of you who feel like the next question that Prostiution legal will be helpful:
Quote: Here's a question (think long and hard). Has making prostitution illegal prevented it?
Question:
Was making Slavery legal helping the slaves?
Did the slaves get treated better before or after slavery?
Did making Slavery illegal help these people?
Has making slavery illegal prevented it? No it hasn't and yet most countries have banned Slavery... do you suppose we should make it legal?

Gasp, making things illegal can be good.
Making a law that is broken legal is just rewarding the criminal.
If a people start stealing from you, you'd have the problem of theivery... do you legalize that too?
Its their hands and bodies that stole, don't they have control of what they chose to do with it?
Besides being angry, you have no case because they caused no harm: at least that is the argument for prostitution.

It's not an issue of helping people.

It's an issue of government not infringing upon the fundamental individual rights of its citizens.

It's not an issue of helping people.

It's an issue of government not infringing upon the fundamental individual rights of its citizens.

It's not an issue of helping people.

It's an issue of government not infringing upon the fundamental individual rights of its citizens.

Okay Ithuania, describe why you feel that Prostitution is a "fundamental individual right of a citizen"?

I've have seen how Freedom of speech is...
How pursuit of happiness can be, how right to bear arms can be certain times, right to a fair trial definately is, but I have never heard anyone describne that selling one's body is a fundamental right!
Pleaae elaborate if you are truthful about this. 8)

Okay here is a simple counter question for those of you who feel like the next question that Prostiution legal will be helpful:
Quote: Here's a question (think long and hard). Has making prostitution illegal prevented it?
Question:
Was making Slavery legal helping the slaves?
Did the slaves get treated better before or after slavery?
Did making Slavery illegal help these people?
Has making slavery illegal prevented it? No it hasn't and yet most countries have banned Slavery... do you suppose we should make it legal?

Gasp, making things illegal can be good.
Making a law that is broken legal is just rewarding the criminal.
If a people start stealing from you, you'd have the problem of theivery... do you legalize that too?
Its their hands and bodies that stole, don't they have control of what they chose to do with it?
Besides being angry, you have no case because they caused no harm: at least that is the argument for prostitution.

There's a fundamental problem with your argument - slavery is forcing someone to work against their will without payment. We're talking about legalising the performing of a service for money, with the consent of both parties.

Okay here is a simple counter question for those of you who feel like the next question that Prostiution legal will be helpful:
Quote: Here's a question (think long and hard). Has making prostitution illegal prevented it?
Question:
Was making Slavery legal helping the slaves?
Did the slaves get treated better before or after slavery?
Did making Slavery illegal help these people?
Has making slavery illegal prevented it? No it hasn't and yet most countries have banned Slavery... do you suppose we should make it legal?

Gasp, making things illegal can be good.
Making a law that is broken legal is just rewarding the criminal.
If a people start stealing from you, you'd have the problem of theivery... do you legalize that too?
Its their hands and bodies that stole, don't they have control of what they chose to do with it?
Besides being angry, you have no case because they caused no harm: at least that is the argument for prostitution.

There's a fundamental problem with your argument - slavery is forcing someone to work against their will without payment. We're talking about legalising the performing of a service for money, with the consent of both parties.

Okay Ithuania, describe why you feel that Prostitution is a "fundamental individual right of a citizen"?


I don't "feel" anything, it is an objective fact.

The right at issue is the right to do as you please with your body so long as you do not engage in force or fraud against the person or property of another without his consent--that is, the right of self-ownership.

Actually certain Prostuitutes do work "against their will without payment. "
Its in the US News magazine I think (hope that was right title)
All about Sex Slaves who are basically Prostitutes but are also sex slaves.

They don't know any better so they stay the way they are.
By legalizing this, you make it Okay. Because they can just say they are Prostitutes and the Cops will go away.