NationStates Jolt Archive

I have proposed international support of the UN and the international community to start a solar energy program in the desert. The desaert is almost totaly inpopulated and a perfect zone to start that kind of advance in enrgy explotation of the sun.

I will support it. Thats a great idea!

Confederacy of the Isles UN Delegate
Hung Tony

Who gets how much of this energy? How is it transported?
Will the nations in which the deserts are located get an extra share? (That seems fair.)

The Federation of Soltak offers its support of this proposal.

It is Theoretical that the solar energy is to be transported by pipelines or that kind of physical transportation. Remember that each continent has at least one desert. And for small far away islands, the solution is simple: Since there is a small amount of energy demand, so instead of energy (probably coal) generators, that nation could implant solar energy receptors in each house.

This is an internartional act. Remember that we don´t need to limit ourselves into only the desert. If this gets aproved, we could advance in stages like solar energy from floating receptors, maybe some receptors in the steppes and other alternative energy resources: Hydroenergy, wind energy, and even biological energy.

While solar energy in itself is a good idea, there are some issues that I hope you have provisions for. First, I wish to demonstrate my credentials for speaking on this matter. The Commonwealth of the Pure Existence's environmental situation is beyond perfection. We manage the environment to guarantee protection of all life. I want to know more about this plan in terms of waste product potential. Photocells require a significant amount of mercury, a highly toxic chemical. Even if it is the desert, we need to consider the environmental ramifications. Furthermore, if you plan to be conducting said operations in the territories of other nations, you should be prepared to make concessions to them in terms of extra enery or other considerations.

Yours,
Maestro Proteus
Progenitor and Caretaker of the Commonwealth of the Pure Existence

While solar energy in itself is a good idea, there are some issues that I hope you have provisions for. First, I wish to demonstrate my credentials for speaking on this matter. The Commonwealth of the Pure Existence's environmental situation is beyond perfection. We manage the environment to guarantee protection of all life. I want to know more about this plan in terms of waste product potential. Photocells require a significant amount of mercury, a highly toxic chemical. Even if it is the desert, we need to consider the environmental ramifications. Furthermore, if you plan to be conducting said operations in the territories of other nations, you should be prepared to make concessions to them in terms of extra enery or other considerations.

Yours,
Maestro Proteus
Progenitor and Caretaker of the Commonwealth of the Pure Existence

Interesting points. But the idea is that the solar energy receptors would be international property. The idea of constructing those in the desert is precisely why the other nations wouldn´t mind in leting an international project on constructing such solar power receptors. And if they do? Well, the consessions should be accepted in the UN in votes. Let´s remember that such nations shall recieve a benefit since they are the home countries of those solar energy fields. That means that the demand of energy for the desert nations would be pleased with the energy those countries need. That means that those countries would recieve what they explicitly need. Let´s not forget that we are talking about un-ending energy resources. And so, with the construction of those fields, energy would not be a limited resource, and could be easily shared. But for that, we need international support and I hope that the UN delegates accept such proposal.

And about enviromental issues, well the huge and multiple solar enegy receptors would not harm the ecosystem. They just recieve the solar energy and transform it to electricity for our needs. That would be the same as to build millions of sand structure in the desert. The fauna and flora would not be affected from those buildings. Mercury could be covered in different ways so that the chemical doesn´t affect the sorroundings. There are many chemicals that could be used for solar energy receptors. Today´s technology enables whole houses to recieve enougth energy with reserves for rainy days and not in desert areas with mere 2 square meters. We are talking about whole buildings of 4-5 stories. Now, with the billions of square kilometers this world´s desert has, we could bring enougth energy to all humanity, without fighting or competition. And in the future we don´t need to get limited to the desert only, we could expand to outer space too.

This, as I said, is just a first step to a project that gradualy becomes more complex but efficient. We need to overcome the idea of limited energy resources, and use our most common energy form we have in this solar system and probably in the whole galaxy: Solar energy.

Also, let´s not forget that we are not limited on horizontal construction of what I like to call "solar receptor cities", but also we can construct whole stories after stories of solar energy receptors. Those zones don´t need space, we could exploit every little milimeter to fill. (Remember that those receptors are not totaly horizontal, but actually they are diagonal structures).

If you are specific about the environmental protection/safeguards to be put in place, I will support.

Remember, just because you do not live in a dessert, does not mean animals do not

If you haven't noticed, I WAS talking about the animals. As I said, there is no reason why the animals would be affected by those structures, which btw will take a minor percentage from the desert lands.

As I was saying, there could be many ways to protect the flaura and fauna. Between them, there could be glass specificly engeneered to let the maximum amount of light to pass through that glass. The glass will protect the enviroment from the heat and dangerious materials of the solar receptors.

Other methods could be more complicated, chemicals which warn off animals. But that is not necesary, I think, and very risky.

I also believe that those structures are inofensive to the animal and plant life of the zone. There will be teams which will take care of the solar power receptors to ensure the safety of the animals, plants and the receptors as well. For example, if a plant manage to grow and bother the arival of light to the solar receptors (most possible examples, cactuses), then the UN manteinance team would relocate either the solar generator or the Cactus to a more comfortable place (the solar generators could be huge, as much as 15 meters high). There is no reason animals are put in danger from those kind of structures. But if it is, then the teams would be asigned to relocate the animal to a more safe place.

But then again, there is no reason why the fauna and flora are to be put in danger from such structures. But some measures could be taken in case those rare events happen.

A nice topic,
We are all Humanoids have a few questions though;

What happens to the creatures dependent on sunlight trapped underneath miles upon miles of solar arrays?

What is to stop those Desert nations that will ultimately physically own the source of the majority of the worlds energy holding the rest of the world to ransom?

What percentage of GDP will be required for the initial build or will this just be an arbitrary amount of cash, whereas the poorest nations pay more for what they may never benefit from.

The proposal has merits but needs these and other specifics answering.

Edwaurdo
Prime Minister
We are all Humanoids

Of cource, I was thinking of different diagonal structures which move in the direction of the sun. I believe that the amount of space between each one of those solar receptors would be enougth for those creatures that need sunlight, which normally would be more likely plants and reptiles.

A nice topic,
We are all Humanoids have a few questions though;

What happens to the creatures dependent on sunlight trapped underneath miles upon miles of solar arrays?

What is to stop those Desert nations that will ultimately physically own the source of the majority of the worlds energy holding the rest of the world to ransom?

What percentage of GDP will be required for the initial build or will this just be an arbitrary amount of cash, whereas the poorest nations pay more for what they may never benefit from.

The proposal has merits but needs these and other specifics answering.

Edwaurdo
Prime Minister
We are all Humanoids

The idea is to also protect those solar receptors with legal and if it is required military international/UN support. But, there would be no reason to take power of those receptors, since there would eventually be enougth energy for all the countries.

There are a few concerns I have here. All of have at least been touched on already.

First, solar power stations are not commonly known as reliable sources of energy, both because of weather concerns and because the sun is usually going down or already down when the use of the electrical grid is at its peak.

Second, who will control these power stations? Is the UN planning to steal land from those nations that own these deserts? Is the UN planning to turn over control of the new international electrical grid to the desert nations? I don't believe that either course of action is wholly acceptable. There may be some middle path, but I haven't thought of one yet. Perhaps negotiation for the purchase of lands, but that is not a guaranteed success.

Third, the desert actually does have an ecosystem. Constructing massive solar power stations would obviously harm the species that native to that ecosystem. Building the photoreceptors themselves produces many toxins and uses that one magical chemical in some abundance: oil. Solar power stations are known for taking up large spaces to produce moderate to scant amounts of energy, and all of that land we'll be developing is land where the animals of the desert cannot find food, cannot find water, and cannot burrow, and where plants of the desert will not grow.

Fourth, I wonder just how much of the NationStates world is composed of desert lands. The amount is probably very different from that of the real world, one way or another. That amount would also depend on whether you're going to take the player's word for their nation's terrain (which I think would yield a lower number) or the game's environment description (which I think would yield a higher number).

Fifth, as I mentioned earlier, you need oil to build photoreceptor panels. This may not sound like a concern at first, but these panels have a limited lifespan (especially placed in rough terrain like a desert). Given that, I would actually question their efficiency -- why go to all the trouble of obtaining one energy source and shipping, refining, shipping, building, shipping, constructing, installing, staffing, continually funding, maintaining, repairing and replacing them into another source of energy when we could use the original energy source at a lower cost and, some would argue, a higher efficiency?

...there would be no reason to take power of those receptors, since there would eventually be enougth energy for all the countries.

Which would only serve as that much more motivation for some nations, groups, or individuals to control it -- it powers the world.

I would support such measure

8) Hi 1st I think its a brilliant idea, however we like the idea f putting solar recepticles on every publicbuilding around the world, except those with fragile or glass roof's and those of special historic interest.

After that we would put moderate sized wind turbines on all hi rise buildings!

And then we would change all nuclear power stations, (remember their huge lakes to cool things?), to water or kinetic energy production, like transfynydd!

After that all dams could have water turbines, then all ships could have solar and wind generators!

desert ecosystems are fragil ecosystems
anyone who thinks the're just empty hasn't really looked closely
out there

carlemnaria's appraoch is distributed generation.
not only do public buildings have both photovoltaic and solar thermal
and those public buildings include the craftufacturing centers and communal barns
as well as meeting places and other facilities
but nearly every home has them as well, feeding back into the grid.
many homes have wind harvesters as well, and all of our dams have generators.
the only slack left over is taken up by methane home gensets, the only fuel burned, and a few small nuke plants.
we burn no coal, oil or gas other then methane from 'biomass' to produce our energy
even our transportation systems use either fuel cells or stored energy recharged from the mostly solar/wind net

but the thing i'm trying to get at is the lack of need for large capitol concentration of generation in a small number of diseconomicly large facilities, and instead the widely and universaly distributed m.a.i.n.e. system

(which stands for: multiple alternative integrated network for energy)

you don't need to build giant pink elephants, even out in your deserts.

and we don't burry the spent fuel waste from our nuke plants either

we slice them up and put them into highly effecient micro-nuke fully safe and sealed home nuke gensets.

when the depleted fuel no longer has the umph to power them it's REALY depleted, to the point that it IS then safe to simply burry withOUT the need for special precautions

though most rural homestead do also have methane digesting (generating) toilets instead of ceptic tanks.

where industries (such as those making solar cells, little trains and ag/construction robots) need concentrated amounts of energy, in addition to their own incident solar and wind, they are located next to dams up in the hills

=^^=
.../\...

*Stands up and speaks*

I, Ira Heuer, Vice-Roy of Areya,

Completely endorse your idea of solar energy in the desert. Though the idea of forcing every house hold in the whole world to have Solar Energy panels is absurd. What of the poor people who live in tiny houses who cannot support the weight of a panel, and that endangers their lives?? What if the panels crack, who will come to repair them? Will there be a hotline one could call to request a repair? Only panels in the desert can work without conflict, and I am yet to see a negative reason with panels in the desert.

*Sits down*

this idea isnt very well thought out no ones coming in my country to build noting i dont want and if they did they sure arent taking it OUT of my country my countrys in the desert......how is that sopposed to work

Every ecosystem is fragile. And as I said, the ecosystem would not be harmed in any way. Furthermore, this is just a first step. As we expand the solar generator quantity, and improve te technologies of those receptors, we could improve the quality of the energy recieved, and improve all aspects of those structures.

And tell me: Yes, manufacturing those receptors take preety much energy. But is it better to produce a clean energy source, which doesn´t harm furthermore the ecosystem of the planet, which by the way it is almost an unlimited resource of energy? Or to extract a depleting source, which harms the sorroundings, and it´s price is geting higher by the minute, as demand rises?

*Stands up and speaks*

I, Ira Heuer, Vice-Roy of Areya,

Completely endorse your idea of solar energy in the desert. Though the idea of forcing every house hold in the whole world to have Solar Energy panels is absurd. What of the poor people who live in tiny houses who cannot support the weight of a panel, and that endangers their lives?? What if the panels crack, who will come to repair them? Will there be a hotline one could call to request a repair? Only panels in the desert can work without conflict, and I am yet to see a negative reason with panels in the desert.

*Sits down*

As there are power generators in each city, those could be an alternative power generators. As I repeat for the x time, this is a first step for humanity to change it´s energy resource. As we improve our technology, we can improve the amount of energy each panel recieves, the relations between the ecosystems and the panels themselves, and the comodity of having one on one building. Also, this is a first step to have an alternative energy source. Maybe years from now, energy will come from special bacteria which produces it, or from wind power, or the improvement of hidroenergy generators.

Ok, we have 20 supporters for now... I think this is advancing well...

27 supporters. I hope we reach to the 136 needed.

And as I said, the ecosystem would not be harmed in any way.

If you say it enough, it must be true, right? It's especially great that you don't have any substance to that statement, just a nice "Nyah!" to all of the data.

And tell me: Yes, manufacturing those receptors take preety much energy. But is it better to produce a clean energy source, which doesn´t harm furthermore the ecosystem of the planet, which by the way it is almost an unlimited resource of energy? Or to extract a depleting source, which harms the sorroundings, and it´s price is geting higher by the minute, as demand rises?

You missed my point. This "clean, magical, renewable" energy source is ENTIRELY dependent on the "dirty, evil, deplenished" energy sources it is supposed to be replacing.

There is no perfect power source.

The point is not to eliminate totaly the Oil energy, but to have a first step towards it. It means that the use of Oil will be dramatically reduced.

And there is no reason for that to harm the ecosystem. Bring me one proof that those structures harm the ecosystem in any way.

I do not believe that this is dangerous to the enviroment, if approached correctly.

*supports it*

-- Republic of Superpower07

I would suppor the idea. However, how would us in the pacific receive our share of this newly created energy? I believe that your idea is a great one, we just need to figure out how everyone would get a portion.

Well, the illimited original resource, the sun, would make it possible to the whole world reserve energy. Slowly and gradualy the whole world will become more dependant on solar energy, and each one would recieve share.

Since the sun gives us illimited energy, to share it would be absolutyely no problem.

Let's not forget that small far away islands could just put solar power receptors around it, since those do not need a vast amount of electricity.

If the island is large, then pipes or cables would transport the energy to those islands. Or use the solar power receptors on top of roofs of buildings.

Also, I repeat that this is a first step on a large scale project to use cleaner means for energy.

Ok, 97 more supporters to go! (40 supports)

The point is not to eliminate totaly the Oil energy, but to have a first step towards it. It means that the use of Oil will be dramatically reduced.

The use of oil will be dramatically reduced by introducing a massive power network that will be entirely built and maintained by the use of oil?

And there is no reason for that to harm the ecosystem. Bring me one proof that those structures harm the ecosystem in any way.

You mean to tell me that you honestly believe that paving and developing land does nothing to change the environment in any way? Never mind all the oil that you'll be using along the way.

Think about it this way:

From using oil energy to all the world constantly, we use it for the production of one structure. Yes, it will make a huge difference.

And no-one talked about paving the landscape. The solar receptors will be harmless to the ecosystem, and it will be adaptable of the conditions of the desert.

Ok, just 89 more delegates to support... We have around 24 hours or so to reach it.

50 supporters. Ok, this is the last day, we need 87 more, or it is the end for this proposal.

Ok, 70 supporters, just 67 more. If you support this act, then you could help by making it known to different parts of the world, or advertising it to different regional delegates for this act.

I telegramed the esteemed leader of the nation of Tawhy in an effort to teach without resorting to this forum. It didn't work, so I will post a reply here. This proposal is a good expmple of why I am not a UN member.

My Minister of Science has informed me that solar energy, collected through photovolteic cells, is extremely area inefficient. Huge collectors would result in only small amounts of electricity. It would require the entire region of Nevada in my country to power it's largest city, at 100% efficiency. The region of Orange County could not be supplied with electricity by covering the entire province of California. These cells only have an efficiency of 30% at best, before transmission losses.

Photovoltaic cells do indeed block light. By definition they "catch" light and convert it to electricity. The cells also prevent water from reaching the ground.

This is a first step towards a project that could become much more develope then what we think. Once financial support is recieved from the UN, the international community can invest in a project for the developement of it´s technology. This, as I said, is just the first stone in a large construction project. Why shouldn´t we support it?

Catholic Europe supports this proposal. It is clean, safe and doesn't affect anyone - why didn't somebody think of it sooner?

This is a first step towards a project that could become much more develope then what we think. Once financial support is recieved from the UN, the international community can invest in a project for the developement of it´s technology. This, as I said, is just the first stone in a large construction project. Why shouldn´t we support it?

I thought I explained why not to support it. The energy content is not there to justify building the solar panels. Even at 100% efficiency, meaning all of the available light is converted to electricity, it won't produce enough electricity to justify the project.

I thought I explained why not to support it. The energy content is not there to justify building the solar panels. Even at 100% efficiency, meaning all of the available light is converted to electricity, it won't produce enough electricity to justify the project.

How do you know this? Can you give us figures etc?

I have done the calculations, but they don't type here very well. Look up the energy content of sunlight, and it will explain all.

I have done the calculations, but they don't type here very well. Look up the energy content of sunlight, and it will explain all.
Well, surely some of this project is good. I mean, we should just continue with burning coal and oil and gas and killing the world?

Who says that burning coal and gas is killing the world? I happen to agree that alternate forms of energy production are desirable, but solar energy is not a viable, large-scale solution.

Who says that burning coal and gas is killing the world? I happen to agree that alternate forms of energy production are desirable, but solar energy is not a viable, large-scale solution.

We in Catholic Europe believe that solar-energy is. We support this resolution.

I would be happy to be wrong. But the fact remains that solar energy is not a viable solution to large-scale power needs. Watches and calculators can easily be powered with solar electricity, but even a laptop computer requires too much electricity for solar energy to be a source.

Who says that burning coal and gas is killing the world? I happen to agree that alternate forms of energy production are desirable, but solar energy is not a viable, large-scale solution.

I never said something like that. I just said it is a first step. We can later develope technology to improve Solar receptors.

Ok! Just 40 to go! I think we can make it!

We are so close! Just 35 to go with 102 supporters!

Sounds like a plan! Carpet the deserts with solar panels - nobody's going to miss them.

Well, it wasn´t carpet. And the proposal failed to pass... Oh well, I hope later the world will be prepared for such an act.

As I said, even at 100% efficiency, this will not produce a significant amount of electricity. There can be no vague promises of improving technology later. It will never operate at more than 100% efficiency. It can't be done. I think you need to study the science behind your ideas better before making proposals such as this. The world will never be ready for this, because it won't work. If this had passed, it would waste a significant amount of money, and result in no significant gains in available electricity.

The number of delagates voting for this proposal truly scares me.

I believe that human science is capable of everything. I know that the UN would do much better then countries like you who try to destroy human hope for a better future. Sure, today 100% efficiency is not capable, but later yes. That was this act all about.

Is the envoy from Tahwy capable of reading? There isn't enough power in sunlight to be significant. Period. Forget the efficiency.

Solar power has uses to be sure, but it is not a large-scale solution to power demands of any country.

Human science is not capable of everything. There are laws of physics, and these laws cannot be broken, even by politicians. The laws of thermodynamics cannot be violated, and never will be. If the energy isn't there, it isn't there. The sun does not radiate enough energy to the earth to supply current energy demands. Even adding tidal and wind power into the equation, there is not enough power.

When your nation grows up a bit, you will realize that there are always trade-offs.