NationStates Jolt Archive

Greetings from Boblovia!

We are still a relatively small nation from Darkest Appalachia, and are testing the waters with our first UN proposal: "Poor grammar breeds terrorism!"

In the interest of peace and understanding, our proposal mandates UN nations provide education to all children and adults. This would include mandatory schooling of children from the ages of 6-18, the establishment of government-funded scholarships and financial aid, and vouchers for every adult citizen to be used toward continuing education courses. Honorable delegates, I implore you to approve this proposal. After all, if we can't spell or read, how will we communicate, and if we can't communicate, how will we work together to make the world a better place?

Thank you for your time, and may Bob's Secretary smile upon your nation.

--Archbishop Kaffee I. Gut, council head of The Republic of Boblovia

Fascinating. This is the first time that the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has been implicated in terrorism. The problem is that it is a little known fact that what is often known as bad grammar is usually just naturally occuring language change. When people use prepositions in a new way or ignore noun-verb agreement, that is part of how languages change. Trying to stop it is a foolish attempt to enforce conformity.

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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

Perhaps (and by that I mean "bullshit" :wink: ), but do you want language to deteriorate so far that it's incomprehensible because everyone has their own "creative" approach to spelling four and five letter words?

Remember, kids, "i" before "e" except after "c." It's that easy.

Link to proposal: http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=UN_proposal1/match=Poor%20grammar%20breeds%20terrorism

Poor grammar breeds terrorism!

Category: Social Justice; A resolution to reduce income inequality and increase basic welfare.
Strength: Significant

Proposed by: Boblovia


Description: As it is a known fact that misunderstanding leads to conflict, and as it has been observed that at least fifty percent of all UN proposals contain gross and frequent misspellings and improper syntax, the Republic of Boblovia moves that in the interest of peace, the UN enact among its nations mandatory funding for the education of all children and adults, focusing specifically on those subjects which are related to proper communication: writing, grammar, literature, and graphic design.

If this proposal becomes international law, the Republic of Boblovia believes misunderstanding will become a thing of the past and nations all over the world will put down their nukes (gently!) and sigh, "Ohhhh, so that's what you meant!"


Approvals: 22 (Boblovia, The Discordia, Markodonia, Soltak, Secluded Sanctuary, Fenris Ulf, Gapominion, The tangerine man, Shee City, The Cognoscenti, Footsteps, The TechnoGeeks, Jontes, Immanent, Kristinuria, Lawritania, Navelgazia, Fruitful Stability, Overwhelming Fury, Sulon, Monstranian, Pentastar)

Status: Lacking Support (requires 114 more approvals)

Voting Ends: Fri Dec 26 2003

the education of citizens threatens the power of leaders in nations(especially mine, a stupid public is an abiding public). I opose this proposition, as education is for the weak!

The people who cannot be understood because of improper grammar are too inarticulate and stupid to be understood even if they had perfect grammar.

I approve of an educated populace but the underlying premise is flawed.

Edited for spelling. Oh, the irony.

Perhaps (and by that I mean "bullshit" ), but do you want language to deteriorate so far that it's incomprehensible because everyone has their own "creative" approach to spelling four and five letter words?

Did you know that French developed from Latin by the process you refer to as bad grammar? All languages did.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

An educated populace is a stronger and wealthier one. Although I am in favor of the idea at its base, this is not the correct way to correcting this problem.

Education Minister of Nationalist Pacifica

Perhaps (and by that I mean "bullshit" ), but do you want language to deteriorate so far that it's incomprehensible because everyone has their own "creative" approach to spelling four and five letter words?

Did you know that French developed from Latin by the process you refer to as bad grammar? All languages did.

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Actually, French developed from Latin when Roman soldiers in Gaul attempting to learn the language spoken by the 'barbarians' in the region in an effort to communicate with their prisoners. The 'barbarians' spoke what is referred to as Old French, and, when merged with Latin, became what we now know as the French language.

Bad grammar didn't have much to do with it. If it did, they forgot to teach me that when I got my BA in linguistics.

*shakes head*

Ridiculous, trying to legislate spelling and grammar -- also it is discriminatory against our member nations for whom English is not their primary language.

Stop worrying about form, and worry about content instead.

*shakes head*

Ridiculous, trying to legislate spelling and grammar -- also it is discriminatory against our member nations for whom English is not their primary language.

Stop worrying about form, and worry about content instead.

Unfortunately, for those member nation's who do not speak English as a first language, content matters very little if not eloquently and intelligently presented.

If you can't speak English in a coherent fashion, you shouldn't be participating in this game.

And, I've noted quite often, that those individuals with language problems aren't foreign, their American, or British, or what have you, and are just plain stupid.

Most people who learn English as a second language speak and write it quite well.

This is not language arts class. I view bad grammer in game as an accent a country has. Loosen up.

Actually, French developed from Latin when Roman soldiers in Gaul attempting to learn the language spoken by the 'barbarians' in the region in an effort to communicate with their prisoners. The 'barbarians' spoke what is referred to as Old French, and, when merged with Latin, became what we now know as the French language.

If you were to leave out the useless -s on verbs in the singular third person,

He works-->He work.

You'd still be understood. It would be considered bad grammar. However, this simplification of useless grammatical suffixes(useless morphology) has been going on for a thousand years in some form. English used to mark nouns for whether they did the verb, were done to by a noun, were indirectly affected or possessed something. Now only the ending for possession(-'s) remains. That is simply how languages change. French(and Spanish and several other languages, too) went through a similar process of morphology simplification.

It had nothing to do with "barbarian languages" or any nonsense like that. You must have not paid attention in linguistics class when they explained that linguistics DESCRIBES, not prescribes. There is no such thing as bad grammar if it is just as capable of expression as the standard grammar.

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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

The occasional lack of capitalization or punctuation, or improper word selection is, while not great, something that I will accept.

When a document is so riddled with poor grammar that I can hardly grasp the meaning, or don't care to try to do so, then I have a problem.

If you can get your ideas across without me needing to run your post through spell check four times and then ponder for a half an hour, I generally don't object.

*shakes head*

Ridiculous, trying to legislate spelling and grammar -- also it is discriminatory against our member nations for whom English is not their primary language.

Stop worrying about form, and worry about content instead.

Unfortunately, for those member nation's who do not speak English as a first language, content matters very little if not eloquently and intelligently presented.

If you can't speak English in a coherent fashion, you shouldn't be participating in this game.

And, I've noted quite often, that those individuals with language problems aren't foreign, their American, or British, or what have you, and are just plain stupid.

Most people who learn English as a second language speak and write it quite well.
In your attempt to write eloquently, you used the wrong "their". They're means they are, not their.

I see that I did ... Thank you for correcting my error.

As mentioned previously, these are one of the things that I seldom notice and rarely object to, as they don't affect my overall understanding of the post.

However, I do find it quite ironic that I made a grammatical error in my own critique of others. :P

Thanks again for pointing that out. :)

Don't be so elitist, Soltak.

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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

I don't think that I was being elitist at all.

Personally, I find it not only ironic, but also humorous that I made a grammatical error in a post that was designed to critique people who make such errors.

I appreciate that Allevery pointed it out, so I said so.

Yes, the Sapir-Whorfs that you threw in, and your love for poor grammar......are you perhaps a fellow linguist?

Then you should understand that excessive and blatant grammatical errors are foolish. A language develops "naturally" from variations - these variations arise when there is no reference. Presently we have countless dictionaries and literary sources which teach us how to write. Yes, local variations will still ensue, but when trying to speak normal, mainstream, non-dialiectical English, it is best to refer to such sources and be correct. This isn't just that fascinating localized variation that we gasp at, this is simple carelesness.

As for the resolution, I don't agree with it, just for the record...it's absurd.

But yea...

You go on about how people should use grammar that conforms to some arbitrary standard. It's not so much elitist as conformist.

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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

I don't think there's anything arbitrary about it. It's what the average person can understand.

Speaking incorrectly isn't nonconformist, it's an indicator of ignorance.

Speaking incorrectly isn't nonconformist, it's an indicator of ignorance.

So only your dialect is the correct one. That's conformism. Everyone who speaks a different dialect is ignorant. Very prejudiced.

I'll askl you a question relavent to this discussion: Is there such a thing as a primitive language?

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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

Linguistically speaking, Latin and Greek and examples of what could, by a slightly informed person, be categorized as 'primitive' in that they are the base languages for many others.

And I didn't say that only my dialect was the correct one. If you're British, Australian, a 'Red Neck,' what ever, I can still understand you if you make the attempt at speaking coherently.

We're not discussing dialects, we're discussing coherent writing and speaking. There's a difference.

Linguistically speaking, Latin and Greek and examples of what could, by a slightly informed person, be categorized as 'primitive' in that they are the base languages for many others.

But they are certainly just as expressive as today's languages. They aren't primitive.

We're not discussing dialects, we're discussing coherent writing and speaking. There's a difference.

Coherent speaking? Using certain constructions and such would be considered bad grammar to you but are allowed in some dialects. You are prejudiced.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

Linguistically speaking, Latin and Greek and examples of what could, by a slightly informed person, be categorized as 'primitive' in that they are the base languages for many others.

But they are certainly just as expressive as today's languages. They aren't primitive.

We're not discussing dialects, we're discussing coherent writing and speaking. There's a difference.

Coherent speaking? Using certain constructions and such would be considered bad grammar to you but are allowed in some dialects. You are prejudiced.



Latin & Greek: I didn't say that they were primitive. I said that a person 'slightly informed' of linguistics might categorize them as such. I didn't say that I did.

Your second point: I honestly have no idea what you mean.

Dialect: a regional variety of language distinguished by features of vocabulary, and pronunciation from other regional varieties and constituting together with them a single language.

Grammar is neither mentioned nor plays a part. You lost the earlier debate and now you're trying to steer the issue away from what is being discussed.

Let me provide a few examples:

Mid-west American: Good morning. How are you today?
'Red Neck': Howdy. How ya doin'?
Queen's English: Good morning, mate. How are we today?


These are dialects. We know what everyone means here, yes?


goodMorning how are you today. this is an example of, an, grammar poor ... see point.


"This is an example of poor grammar and construction. See the difference between that and a dialect?"

Also, we're discussing, mainly, writing. I'm sure I could more easily divine one's meaning if I could hear them speak, but I can't be sure.

Mid-west American: Good morning. How are you today?
'Red Neck': Howdy. How ya doin'?
Queen's English: Good morning, mate. How are we today?


These are dialects. We know what everyone means here, yes?

And they differ noticeably in grammar. A real linguist doesn't believe in prescriptivism.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

There's difference in grammar, but it doesn't veer into being incoherent. It ventures nowhere close.

And, I don't know if I'm a 'real linguist' or not, but I do have an undergraduates degree in it. And I should think that it counts for something.

If not, I wasted a lot of money those four years.

It amazes me that so many people spend so much time bashing other peoples grammer. LOL. I mean this is a game not english class.

Whatever, just don't legislate linguistic prejudice.

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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

I still think you throw 'prejudice' around far too much. Stupid people often speak incorrectly. That's just a fact.

But I agree that we've taken this too far. Let's just drop it.

How can people understand each other withpout some common language?

If that common language is whatever I in my egalitarian nonconformity choose it to be, how will I be understood?

On the other hand, perhaps this is a problem which should not be discourages, as it would make terrorism more difficult since individual agents could not understand each other's speech.

"Are you a terrierist?"

"What does that mean? I oppose the millinery-industrial complex."

"I don't care about military cornflakes! Are you a tenorist?"

"I am a detergent rebel, fleadom fighter, rabbleutionary!"

"I can't understand you, spy!"

"whatever you said, back at you!"

Bang!

Bang!

Two dead insurgents, uh, detergents.

Too true. Reminds me of the Tower of Babel story, Collaboration.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

All I intended to do was write a farcical proposal that gently made fun of something I frequently observe in the UN: pathetically poor spelling and grammar. It's not strictly a joke proposal, as my fictional nation values education first and foremost, but, to its critic above, of course it's absurd. Isn't that obvious? The whole game is absurd. I thought that was the point, at least that's what I gathered from the game's "issues" which run the gamut from whether or not to execute drunk drivers to federally subsidized S&M conventions.

However, this serious discussion of linguistics is fascinating.

New Labor and Soltak: thanks for throwing in some interesting arguments and more than a dash of common sense.

Letila: I've never taken any linguistics classes, but I do know that the best way to be taken seriously is to prove that you are intelligent, educated, and dilligent, and the easiest way to demonstrate that is to spell correctly. Those interested in playing a "serious" game should understand that no official document passed around the UN would contain gross misspellings no matter what language it was written in. It's just a matter of presentation, and to claim that misspellings should be accepted and encouraged because it'll turn Latin into French really is absurd.

It isn't a big deal, though, to repeat, all I intended to do was poke fun.

teh terroists yeh dey have bad grammar i say w3 n00k3 dem.

This proposal, whilst... interesting... does have some valid mandatory education points. We need to have all types of people in a scholarly enviroment so as to introduce them to new world views. If not, then the prejudices formed from them being alone with only their types of thought would probably lead to terrorism.

Me gots grammar good

The sad thing is, this proposal is probably going to reach quorum before mine :D . Legalise marijuana. Tokes for everyone, and I'll build a communal bong.