NationStates Jolt Archive

Just another poll...

Communism is a legitimate form of government; as such, yes, it should be allowed.

I think I may be misunderstanding your question.

Shaviv
Emissary

there are communist member states in the real un. they are soveriegn states, so why should they not be allowed here? communism is simply another way of ruling a country. its not inherently evil so whats the problem?

Jixie

there are communist member states in the real un. they are soveriegn states, so why should they not be allowed here? communism is simply another way of ruling a country. its not inherently evil so whats the problem?

Jixie

Communism is not what many think it is. Lots of people believe that communism is simply the opposite of democracy, however this is not true. Here's what I was taught in history - Marx believed that after the proletariat overthrew capitalism, a period of dictatorship of the proletariat was needed - called socialism (though this is only one of the many definitions of the word). This dictatorship oversees the destruction of the class system and the equal distribution of wealth, and gradually government fades away to leave a free society of equal people, who all contribute what they can and take what they need ("from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"). This final stage, which has never truly been reached, is true communism.

The Soviet Union was ostensibly socialist, working towards communism. However, many would contend that Stalinism does not really count as a Marxist form of government, and that it was a corruption of socialism, as is North Korea's government and some others. So in truth, we have little experience of Marxist socialism, let alone communism and cannot therefore judge it. Please note though, I am myself not a Marxist.

You could whether or not a large number of ideologies should be allowed in the UN. Why just single out Communism?

The Empire is COMPLETELY OPPOSED to this idea of communism in the United Nations because the UN is a group of organizations with the fact of each country having an equal and shared vote in world affairs. If communism was to be encorperated into the UN, the United Nations would just fall apart and die. Communism is absolutely stupid when encorperated in the UN and so this cannot be allowed.

i don't like communism, because it doesn't work in real life because people don't want to be equal why being ruled by a leader who drives a bentley,

The Empire is COMPLETELY OPPOSED to this idea of communism in the United Nations because the UN is a group of organizations with the fact of each country having an equal and shared vote in world affairs. If communism was to be encorperated into the UN, the United Nations would just fall apart and die. Communism is absolutely stupid when encorperated in the UN and so this cannot be allowed.

I think that he was asking, should communist countries be allowed in the UN, not should the UN be communist.

Communism looks great on paper, but it never works in real life.
I believe that only tried and true forms of government should be allowed into the UN. Although some might argue that communism has been tried and has proven it's legitamacy, what it always come out to be is a dictatorship :twisted: .

Roma Noctrum

Communism looks great on paper, but it never works in real life.
I believe that only tried and true forms of government should be allowed into the UN. Although some might argue that communism has been tried and has proven it's legitamacy, what it always come out to be is a dictatorship :twisted: .

Roma Noctrum

The Empire is COMPLETELY OPPOSED to this idea of communism in the United Nations because the UN is a group of organizations with the fact of each country having an equal and shared vote in world affairs. If communism was to be encorperated into the UN, the United Nations would just fall apart and die. Communism is absolutely stupid when encorperated in the UN and so this cannot be allowed.

The whole point of communism is equality... So what's your point? Besides, that's not what the UN is. The Security Council has much more power than the other member nations. And China for example, and Vietnam, are both communist and in the UN. And it hasn't fallen apart yet, though the States are doing the best they can to make it do so..

For those people who think that communism is bad,are you people really that stupid?Do you really believe all that government propaganda that communism is bad,the US wants you to believe that communism is bad because it is a threat to their wealth.I bet most people here haven't even read "Communist Manifesto".Yeah sure there might be some imperfection but nothing can be perfect,like the US for example,they call themselves a democracy but they're really just another republic.You see communism is the purest form of democracy,where there is no homeless,no jobless,no hunger,and equal distribution of wealth,even the Dali Lama when he went to China to learn more of Marxist ideology said that he was attracted to the idea of distrbution of wealth and equallity for all people.

i don't like communism, because it doesn't work in real life because people don't want to be equal why being ruled by a leader who drives a bentley,

At the end point of communism there is no leader because there is no government.

Communism proper, as well as its various off-shoots (such as socialism, democratic socialism, social democracy and so on) are perfectly legitimate ideologies and the UN has no business discriminating against nations practicing them. As an historical note, the founding members of the real-world UN included the USSR, a nominally-communist state.

While anarchism is far better, we of Letila believe that communism isn't any worse than those iron fist consumerist states and the idea of a capitalismless society with no state is at the heart of both true communism and anarchism.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

Communism is not what many think it is. Lots of people believe that communism is simply the opposite of democracy, however this is not true. Here's what I was taught in history - Marx believed that after the proletariat overthrew capitalism, a period of dictatorship of the proletariat was needed - called socialism (though this is only one of the many definitions of the word). This dictatorship oversees the destruction of the class system and the equal distribution of wealth, and gradually government fades away to leave a free society of equal people, who all contribute what they can and take what they need ("from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"). This final stage, which has never truly been reached, is true communism.

The Soviet Union was ostensibly socialist, working towards communism. However, many would contend that Stalinism does not really count as a Marxist form of government, and that it was a corruption of socialism, as is North Korea's government and some others. So in truth, we have little experience of Marxist socialism, let alone communism and cannot therefore judge it. Please note though, I am myself not a Marxist.

Very well said.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!

Good one, (sniff), :lol:

We should really be questioning whether capitalism is valid. From Letila's POV, it's quite terrible.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.
The state only exists to serve itself.
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic
of attractive women.

Rampant neo-liberal capitalism is a very dangerous thing indeed.

Now now, I don't see why Communism shouldn't be allowed in there when psychotic dictatorships that would shoot people just for the heck of it are allowed in the UN.

Like I said folks, this is just another poll. I have not really formed a complete opinion on Communism, and I was interested in what other people think without writing something that might offend somebody.

Communism is not what many think it is. Lots of people believe that communism is simply the opposite of democracy, however this is not true. Here's what I was taught in history - Marx believed that after the proletariat overthrew capitalism, a period of dictatorship of the proletariat was needed - called socialism (though this is only one of the many definitions of the word). This dictatorship oversees the destruction of the class system and the equal distribution of wealth, and gradually government fades away to leave a free society of equal people, who all contribute what they can and take what they need ("from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"). This final stage, which has never truly been reached, is true communism.

The Soviet Union was ostensibly socialist, working towards communism. However, many would contend that Stalinism does not really count as a Marxist form of government, and that it was a corruption of socialism, as is North Korea's government and some others. So in truth, we have little experience of Marxist socialism, let alone communism and cannot therefore judge it. Please note though, I am myself not a Marxist.

The reason this so-called "final stage" hasn't been reached IRL is because communism DOES NOT work!

What makes you think capitalism is the perfect choice? Just because capitalism has been in the game for a longer period of time, doesn't make it any better or a more complete form of government. Capitalism as well as communism both are not "complete", but I believe both can work to their own extent. Communism isn't just another word for oppression and death - people in China and Vietnam (for example) ACTUALLY live. Just because they don't live like we proud westerners do, doesn't make them inferior to me.

Of course, you could say communist form of government is more bent on oppression (just look at N-Korea), but still I believe it doesn't have to be that way. I don't expect anything excellent or perfect from communism - I expect a different way of thinking and living.

Just some thoughts there.

Whatever the reason, though, the empirical evidence seems to weigh against Communism, oor heavy state regulation of the economy in general.

Now, you want to run an economy into the ground? Try Fascism, as it appeared in Italy.

In relation more to Yonyi's points (which are very well-made, might I add) than anything else, I once heard the USSR described as having

Taken the Dictatorship of the Proletariat and turned it into the Dictatorship of the Professional Dictator
If only I could remember who wrote it.

Additionally, while in the vein of political/historical quotes, about Fascist Italy - there are some zingers in Paul Kennedy's Rise and Fall of the Great Powers. Of particular note
...and an airforce which had shown itself capable of bombing - if not necessarily hitting - Abyssinian tribesmen.
It seems as though this was one of the rare occasions where the presence of an ally would be more of a hindrance to the aims of the allied power than those of its enemies.
The second one referring to British strategic thought regarding the prospect (later realised) of the Axis being formed.

The reason this so-called "final stage" hasn't been reached IRL is because communism DOES NOT work!

As humanity stands today, you're probably right. But I'd like to imagine that social and mental progression will one day allow humans to be selfless. Even so, as I said, I am not quite as far left as to be Marxist, because I believe that effort and ability should be rewarded to some extent, and with people as they are today, that reward will need to be material wealth or power, and the former is more democratic. Also, I intensely disagree with the idea of having a dictatorship to oversee the progression - if you need a dictator to make it work, that means the majority must be against it, in which case it can't work anyway.

Having said that, I'd far rather people attempted to reach communism than anarcho-capitalism.

Communism is not what many think it is. Lots of people believe that communism is simply the opposite of democracy, however this is not true. Here's what I was taught in history - Marx believed that after the proletariat overthrew capitalism, a period of dictatorship of the proletariat was needed - called socialism (though this is only one of the many definitions of the word). This dictatorship oversees the destruction of the class system and the equal distribution of wealth, and gradually government fades away to leave a free society of equal people, who all contribute what they can and take what they need ("from each according to his ability, to each according to his need"). This final stage, which has never truly been reached, is true communism.

The Soviet Union was ostensibly socialist, working towards communism. However, many would contend that Stalinism does not really count as a Marxist form of government, and that it was a corruption of socialism, as is North Korea's government and some others. So in truth, we have little experience of Marxist socialism, let alone communism and cannot therefore judge it. Please note though, I am myself not a Marxist.

The reason this so-called "final stage" hasn't been reached IRL is because communism DOES NOT work!

Hmmm. Or maybe it's because the revolutions we've seen happened in agrian societies, as opposed to advanced capitalist societies which Marx believed would be neccesary?

Communism is allowed in the UN by default. If you have a problem with that, submit a proposal outlawing it.

Lord Evif, Goobergunchian UN Ambassador
Founder of the DU Region

Like I said last time, this is just another poll. I have not currently expressed any opinion on Communism, so it is extremely unjust of you to assume that I have a problem with it. I merely formed this poll/topic to see the opinions of others on this particular form of statemenship.

Dictator Corrin
Armed Republic of Kel-Moria

Just another poll...

Communism is NOT a legitimate form of government, but no government is truly legitimate and a diversity of ideas is what creates progress. Thus, it should be allowed in the UN.

Communists always talk of revolution, but we capitalists look forward to a real revolution, in the style of Berlin, 1989-- completely bloodless and they all went shopping afterwards.

Perhaps this is what's going on in China today... with the new underground mall complex beneath the People's Square in Shanghai and all...

Violence is a nice way to achieve your ends, but somewhat obsolete in this day and age.

Violence is a nice way to achieve your ends, but somewhat obsolete in this day and age.

Really??? Because people like you supported the war on Iraq. And I dont care that they caught Saddam, if the yanks would really care about freeing Iraq they would have given the people power already, not installing their military and imposing a new dictator.

I'm an Anarchist and I think communism should be allowed. Everyone who disagrees is a neo-fascist. There's no other choice.

Btw the "communist failure" was caused by not attracting the people, because of installing an unjustified dictatorship, not giving people the democracy they needed, and because it happened in 3rd world countries. And the "western" propaganda helped a lot.

Violence is a nice way to achieve your ends, but somewhat obsolete in this day and age.

Really??? Because people like you supported the war on Iraq. And I dont care that they caught Saddam, if the yanks would really care about freeing Iraq they would have given the people power already, not installing their military and imposing a new dictator.

I'm an Anarchist and I think communism should be allowed. Everyone who disagrees is a neo-fascist. There's no other choice.

Btw the "communist failure" was caused by not attracting the people, because of installing an unjustified dictatorship, not giving people the democracy they needed, and because it happened in 3rd world countries. And the "western" propaganda helped a lot.

Only... not because I opposed the war on Iraq.

Communism happened in 3rd world countries because 1st world people realized it was stupid since capitalism was working fine.

Communism led to dictatorship because it was inevitable since, without a market and prices, there is no way to determine what to produce other than a central authority, which means, in practice, dictatorship.

No democracy in history has ever existed that also had a planned economy.

more bottomless arguments, communism v. capitalism v. socialism v. whatever else is out there.

There are no final answers yet. As most are still in a huge disagreement.

Violence is a nice way to achieve your ends, but somewhat obsolete in this day and age.

Really??? Because people like you supported the war on Iraq. And I dont care that they caught Saddam, if the yanks would really care about freeing Iraq they would have given the people power already, not installing their military and imposing a new dictator.

I'm an Anarchist and I think communism should be allowed. Everyone who disagrees is a neo-fascist. There's no other choice.

Btw the "communist failure" was caused by not attracting the people, because of installing an unjustified dictatorship, not giving people the democracy they needed, and because it happened in 3rd world countries. And the "western" propaganda helped a lot.

Wow dude. People like you piss me off for one simple reason. But first off, lets get some definitions out of the way.

Fascism - A system of government characterized by rigid one-party dictatorship, forcible suppression of the opposition (unions, other, especially leftist, parties, minority groups, etc.), the retention of private ownership of the means of production under centrallized government control, belligerent nationalism and racism, glorification of war, etc.: First introduced in Italy in 1922.

Communism - A theory or system of the ownership of all means of production (and distribution) by the community or society, with all the members of the community or society sharing in the work and the products; specifically, such a system as practiced in the Soviet Union since 1917, and later in China, Poland, Czechoslovakia, and other communist countries, theoretically based on the doctrines of Marx, Engels, Lenin, and latterly, Stalin, characterized by state planning and control of the economy, ruthless suppression of all opposition political parties and all deviation within the Party, snf the suppression of individual liberties under a dictatorship; since 1940 expansionest by military action and subversion in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Czechoslovakia, etc.

Though this is a mouthful to swallow, you will notice something. Communism and Fascism have many of the same roots, and more often than not the same end result. Socialism as a theory was actually thought up by a German by the name of Karl Marx. Many people do not know this, but he also stated many of the beginning ideas for Fasicm as well.

Thus, concluding that we are Neo-Fascists for possibly not liking Socialism, is self-destructive. You support Anarchy, yet you call us Neo-Fascists for not supporting Communism as a choice. Hmm, lets take a look at Anarchy as well.

Anarchism - The theory that formal; government of any kind is unnecessary and wrong in principle.

You profess to be agaisnt government yet support Communism. Maybe you should learn to cover your bases better before you pop out a theory that we are all Neo-Fascists for disagreeing with you. You have contradicted yourself too many times, rendering yourself irrelevant.

Dictator Corrin
Armed Republic Of Kel-Moria

Communism is no more a form of government than capitalism. It can exist in a small group of people who live within a state which generally promoted capitalism. A social structure similar to a kibbutz could be effectively communist in terms of how ownership is viewed within that subculture. It might not be possible to legally enforce such views of ownership in a society in which law generally favored private ownership.

Many "Communist" states have been totalitarian, such as the Soviet Union under Stalin. To enforce communism, it would be required to have the state enforce it. In an otherwise non-communist state, a communist subculture could only exist in an enforcable fashion by a set of contractual agreements to share property.

As such, it seems unlikely that one could prohibit all forms of communism without prohibiting the private right to make contracts.

Where it might be difficult for the state to step in and enforce contracts enforcing communist ownership would be when the subculture splits apart. Then you would end up with a large scale situation in which groups of people are effectively "divorcing" each other. It might at that point become necessary for the state to declare some possible forms of contractual communism unenforcable for public policy reasons, since as difficult as a divorce is, it would be exponentially more complex to handle divorces of large groups of people disagreeing about collective ownership.

Such technicalities aside, I don't see how the UN could outlaw communism in all its forms, so it must be allowed by default. What may be intolerable to a free nation is compulsory communism, but I similarly do not see how the UN can permissibly forbid even that, if imposed by an otherwise legitimate government.

The Empire is COMPLETELY OPPOSED to this idea of communism in the United Nations because the UN is a group of organizations with the fact of each country having an equal and shared vote in world affairs. If communism was to be encorperated into the UN, the United Nations would just fall apart and die. Communism is absolutely stupid when encorperated in the UN and so this cannot be allowed.
'IF' ? I understood that a blarge number of UN states are already communist, and far from falling apart and dying, we seem to be thriving. Perhaps the empire should enquire into the track record of communist states, as opposed, say to right-wing dictatorships (also in the UN) before making his judgement.

Greetings.

We just want to remember that we are not discussing if Communism is right or better of anything. We are discussing if we should permit UN states to have such form of government. That is pretty different.

The Free Land of Old Tower thinks that every members shoul be free to adopt whatever form of government they want, if that form is not imposed with force. A Dictatorship is a Dictatorship, no matter of what colour is on his flag.

If you want to see where comunism works ...
study the Australian Koori's

Some will argue that it is a socialst government but the more yo udelve the more it looks like comunism to me :)
and it seems to work.

the argument her though is that the people in the world who want to call their form of government "comunism"
is being told that they cant.

As someone has allready pointed out but maybe not in the same way...............


all the Communist governments of the world "
Question, the capatilists rights to be members of the UN "
" at least we look after our population and not our bank accounts !! "
says comisionare whipmaster.

oh and by the way..... you cant use your properganda to convince us :)