NationStates Jolt Archive

His Most Enlightened One's opinion is that abortion should be legal, for there are far too many in this world who, without abortions, would be forced to bring up children that they are either unprepared to care for, or not willing to care for. Can it honestly be said that it was the right thing to do to let an impoverished woman attempt to take care of a needy baby, when she herself was already struggling to support herself? Such a situtation damages both the mother and the child. Hence, such a situation should not be allowed to exist in the first place.
Abortion has the benefit of both saving a mother from a baby she cannot/should not be having AND the baby from a potentially damaging lifestyle.

The question should not be "Pro-Life vs Pro-Choice"....it should be "Will this baby have a good life?"

*Note* I intend to propose U.N legislature based upon this poll/discussion, so be forewarned!*/Note*

and who are you to define a different person's life as "worth living?" so we should execute those who don't have worthwhile lives (according to our standards?) not that i disagree with abortion, but you are not presenting the issue the right way.... too many people in the world? we could all fit in the state of texas with plenty of room.

If I have a tumour growing inside me, I'll get an operation to remove it.

who's to say you aren't a parasite to society? cut him off! cut him out!

Yes, it should be legal.

No one should be forced to accept another's spiritual opinion about the life or lack of life of an unborn child.

A woman has a right to choose about her own body.

Rias Delmion
Prime Minister
Progressive Party Head
People's Republic of Darranack

right. and governments should be able to choose what citizens contribute to it or don't, and remove those tumors. :P

Perhaps another reasoning is in order here:

In my opinion, and I certainly hope everybody would agree on this, I would much rather see a being die a quick and, and the most, relatively painless death than a slow, agonzing death from improper treatment.

To all Pro-lifers: Are you to say that a rape victim who was impregnated by the rapist should just "suck it up" and take care of a child she neither wanted nor can afford to take care of?? All because the baby, who certainly is alive, but only partially and is not concious, has a right to life???

Indeed, but only with the expressed consent of the childbearing lady. Abortion will become a redundant issue soon, once we have the technology to harvest babies without the need of a host body. :o

www.abortionisprolife.com

I think the question at hand here is not whether the unborn child is alive or not, but whether or not the child can be considered conscious or not.

That's irrelevant. The question at hand is whether the woman has the right to her own body or not. The child has no RIGHT to be in the mother's womb, it is only in there by the mother's permission. The mother has the right to revoke that permission at any time.

I can see abortion as an option for the rape/incest cases, but the people who just have sex without first thinking of the consequences get very little of my sympathy when they get pregnant. If they don't want the baby, there is always adoption.

And what of those who do not wish to put their child up for adoption, finding it against their values or the like?

actually, the fetus is there because she's been shackin' up with some bastard. :twisted:

Our opinion is that, abortion is such a divisive issue, that any resolution which passes would do more harm to the UN than good for its people, born or otherwise. We would abstain on a pro-life issue, but would vote against a pro-choice issue.

If it's alright to kill a developing human being after six weeks, why not twelve weeks?
If it's alright after twelve weeks, why not twenty-four?
If twenty-four, why not forty-eight?
If any time before birth, why not the split second after birth?
And so forth.

Please note: I'm not anti-abortion, but I feel like playing devil's advocate today.

To all Pro-lifers: Are you to say that a rape victim who was impregnated by the rapist should just "suck it up" and take care of a child she neither wanted nor can afford to take care of?? All because the baby, who certainly is alive, but only partially and is not concious, has a right to life???

That argument doesn't hold up. If the anti-abortion types see abortion as murder, why would they want to allow it in cases of rape? You're going to have to be very convincing to get them thinking they should support what they see as murder because someone got raped. They would say, in most cases, that it does indeed suck for the mother, but that the child is alive and has a right to stay that way.

Do we kill children because they're the product of extramarital couplings? No. Why should we revoke the right to life of those who are the product of rape?

Besides: ADOPTION.

And what of those who do not wish to put their child up for adoption, finding it against their values or the like?

You have three options: (1) Give your child to some other capable person's care through adoption, (2) Keep your child and shut up, (3) Murder your child.

The mother has a responsibility to care for her child -- she can avoid that responsibility by putting the child up for adoption or by *gasp* using contraceptives. If she finds something to dislike in abortion, that is not an acceptable reason to murder her child.

That's irrelevant. The question at hand is whether the woman has the right to her own body or not. The child has no RIGHT to be in the mother's womb, it is only in there by the mother's permission. The mother has the right to revoke that permission at any time.

Kind of like how the child will have no right to be fed or housed? Should parents have the right to throw their children out on the streets? Should parents be allowed to stab their children with kitchen knives for no other reason than "They became inconvenient."?

A woman has a right to choose about her own body.

But should she have the right to choose what happens to her child's body? Should she be allowed to kill another human just because it shares her genetic code? If everyone has the right to life, why aren't we concerned about the child?

Once an egg is fertilized, its genetic code is undeniably that of a human. Science has yet to conclusively find the point or period in which a child becomes sentient -- largely because the definition of "sentient" is quite subjective. For those who want to use birth as the border -- define the beginning of "birth."

A baby is alive right from conception even when it's one lonely cell. Abortion is murder. The woman has a right to her own body, ok, so do I, I can pick up a knife and stab it at somebody else's heart. What the heck the child has no business there, yeah they don't control where they are it's not their fault. God intends to have the child born therefore the child must be born. Here's another arguement of mine

If a baby was just born and the mother takes out a gun and blows it's head off, is it murder? Hell yes! WHy should that short period in between when it's in and when it's out matter who cares where the baby is living!

heck, some nation leaders are less self-aware than a fetus...

While I don't personally like abortion very much, outlawing it is not the answer.

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Mliêstôlkakûmek(Love all as you love yourself)
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg

Yet another example of how the UN is a liberal gay bar

http://invisionfree.com:54/54/181/emo/signstop.gif

In my term as Queen of Astin, I have found that less intrusion into the lives of women tends to raise morale of the people. The question should not be one of religion or of the beliefs of the leader, it should be in the hands of the people. While I could not imagine getting an abortion, for some it is the best choice in a set of bad choices, thus I will not limit it. That is the beauty of pro-choice: it is not necessarily advocating abortion, it is, literally, advocating choice.

~The Queen of Astin~

I think abortion should be legal. I feel this way as a result of the social and economic divisions that occur in the world. If abortion is illegal, the rich will always be able to travel to an area where it is legal to have an abortion performed by a safe, certified physician. The rich could also bribe trained phsicians to perform abortions inside the area where it is illegal.
The poor, however, will have no such luck. They will have to live by what the government and the rest of the society decides about their fate. Those who still desperately feel that they need abortions will be forced to have the procedures executed in alleys with coat hangers. This will oftentimes result in not one, but rather two deaths. Since avoiding death was the original goal, this outcome is not what was wanted.
Although there will be many individuals who will say that these "coat hanger procedures" will never take place, I am convinced beyond a shadow of doubt that, if abortion is made illegal, we, as citizens of the world, will have this fate to turn around and face. Many countries, most notably the US, have had reportings on collosal scales of such "coat hanger procedures" while abortions were illegal in their nations.
In conclusion, I have not tried to argue about where life begins, whether abortion is right or wrong, or anything of the like. I simply belive that if the rich individuals in a society have the procedure available, then the poor should also. I do not think that abortion is right. However, outlawing it will simply cause more deaths, and a gross inequality between individuals of different social classes.

so yeah.. i've gotten in to this exact debate a million times... and have always stood firm in my belief that a woman should have the choice... not just because it's her body, but because you cannot and do not know the exact details of every single one of these women's ordeals that have led up to this decision and besides that... it's not your choice to make... i mean, it's nice and all to say that it should be illegal, but no matter what it will happen.. and whoever it is that aborts the fetus will have to live with themselvs and their actions for the rest of their life and they don't need anyone else telling them that they did the wrong thing, because guess what... it isn't your life... so back off... you need to shut up and let the people decide whats right for them and thats all you can do. this does not mean that i would ever do that or that i agree, but it is not my decision to make for other people... and it's nobdy else's but there own, so just back off. Thanks :)

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Actually, nowadays, medicine is no longer about curing and healing.....medicine has turned into researching of side effects, other complaints, R&D, anything but actually healing the wounded. Heaven forbid something like that happen!!

- Frank, Jester for His Most Enlightened One

So the woman gets the chocie to murder? Who cares WHERE the baby is living the fact is that it IS living

First of all this whole topic is one of opinion not of facts, because people just have an opinion on what life is and when it begins and then they play God.

But the fact is people should not have the right to murder a child who could live a life of his/her own. And there is no excuse because there is always adoption agencies and foster parents who would gladly take in children. Even rape victims whould have that child and give it upm for adoption, because there is no excuse. Frankly, it is very selfish for women and men when they make irresponsible choices like having unprotected sex to just say well just kill it so I don't have to deal with it!

OCC: And if isn't murder to kill a unborn baby, then why is Scott Peterson on trial for killing his unborn son?

The UN has no right to deal with this issue, and that's that. Let each country deal with it their own way... go on, decrease the surplus population.

I agree with New Babel.

Yay! :lol:

And if isn't murder to kill a unborn baby, then why is Scott Peterson on trial for killing his unborn son?

He's on trial for killing the child because it was in the third trimester of pregnancy when he allegedly did so -- laws restricting abortion ban it during that period. The supposed double-standard many people see is actually caused by a lack of research on their part.

The UN has no right to deal with this issue, and that's that.

I'm inclined to agree, although as far as the game mechanics are concerned, I believe it would be a legal proposal. Considering the general voting history of the UN, I think the main obstacle to such a proposal would be delegate-endorsements.

ITS THEIR CHOICE NOT YOURS! :evil: OMG HOW DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW HOW TO GET OUT OF THE BED IN THE AM!!!!!!!!!

ITS THEIR CHOICE NOT YOURS! OMG HOW DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW HOW TO GET OUT OF THE BED IN THE AM!!!!!!!!!

1) Capslock is bad for your health.
2) Bit many exclamation points, there. Questions end with question marks.
3) Your argument is about on par with "Nyah!"
4) We can't even tell which side you're attempting to support.

The way I see it, if people are having casual sex, the sperm and egg would be wasted anyway. If something goes wrong like the condom splits or whatever, what difference does it make? The sperm and egg were never intended to meet in the first place, so I have no problem with abortion

By that logic, it's none of my buissiness if someone chooses to murder my brother outside of a convenience store. Perhaps you don't know this but the basic rights of a human being do not include being able to kill another human being. It is that simple. In abortion the mother exercises her nonesistant right to take a life. This is simply not the way things work. Abortion is murder in the name of medicine, but is it not medicine's job to heal rather than harm?

The mother is exercizing HER right to life when she removes the baby from her body, because the right to life includes the right to your body, whereas if you shoot your brother in front of a convenience store, his body is sovereign from yours and therefore you are infringing on his right to life. The baby's spot in the mother's womb is a privilege, not a right.

These arguments go nowhere because both sides take a presuppositional stand--you argue not to be convinced, but to convince. It can't be won, and shouldn't be attempted.

Think about this, even if you did make abortion illegal, would it really go away? Think about what black markets are for. Alcohol was made illegal and look at it now. Various narcotics are illegal, and yet people still readily use them.

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The way I see it, if people are having casual sex, the sperm and egg would be wasted anyway. If something goes wrong like the condom splits or whatever, what difference does it make? The sperm and egg were never intended to meet in the first place, so I have no problem with abortion

ugh.. that is the worst argument for abortion that ive ever read in my entire life...

My opinion on this matter is that the government has no right to pass legislation on someones reproductive organs, be them male or female.

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So you are telling me that the Uterus (sp?) of a woman isnt a reproductive organ?

Many medical texts say it is and what a woman does with her reproductive system is her business not that of the government.

No, we're saying a FETUS isn't.

But where does the fetus, embryo, or zygote reside?

But where does the fetus, embryo, or zygote reside?

In the uterus.

Are you saying that things within other things should be counted as being part of that same thing? By that logic, water in a bucket would be considered part of the bucket. The fetus is obviously not the mother.

Are you saying that, should I find you inside my house, I can kill you, no questions asked? My house, my property, after all. What goes on inside my home is not the government's business.

Are you saying that, as a baby is being born, it is still inside the mother and can be aborted? Your statement is, after all, that her reproductive organs are not the government's business, and where does birth take place?

The fetus has a different genetic code from the mother. It is not the mother. In this debate, the location of the unborn child is essentially irrelevant -- the central debate is whether or not the child can be considered "alive," although perhaps "sentient" might be a better qualifier. There is no easy, set point where an embryo becomes an independent, living human being. Some people would say that means we should allow abortion, others would say that means we should play it safe and protect the children.

I'm generally of the opinion that, if the government wants to force the usual responsibilities and restrictions on parents, then the government MUST allow parents every oppurtunity to back out of the arrangement. Some people say adoption is sufficient, I don't know.

I am just of the opinon that the government has no right to force women to be walking incubators against their will. I consider it a violation of their rights, and I have said this before and will likely say it again, the rights of the person who exists superceed those of the person who does not. The mother, as it is her body, as more rights than a zygote or an embryo.

Later in development, when the brain of the fetus starts to show activity, around the 26th week, abortions should not be conducted as the ability of the fetus to feel pain, sense its enviroment, etc is starting to come into being. However I feel that late term abortions should still be an option for exceptional situations, where the mothers life is in danger, or where the child will die shortly after birth.

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I have gotten the feeling from past discussions on this board that there is little common ground between the two extremes, sure it would be great if we ourselves could determine when rights should be granted to a child to be, but thats an issue even courts and governments have trouble deciding.

I hardly think we posters on the NS board can solve the issue at hand, the most we have been able to do is b*tch and whine about it...

If you are against abortion, then don't have one.

abortion is wrong... after saying that you can't alienate an entire world by forcing such believes on someone, beyond that, even if abortions were illegal, people would be getting them done in the back seat of a old rusty car (i.e. the sixties and seventies) I personaly would rather have a woman go into a well maintained and very well insured doctors office then have them go into a very unsanitary back room etc. besides, how can you make a woman keep a baby after cases of incest? Or Rape? that would be far worse for the mother and child then anything. and if you believe that line of thinking, how can you say that something is less wrong with any options? Abortion isnt something the UN needs to be focussing on anyways, its a choice that must be made by the person, not by the collective.

A baby is alive right from conception even when it's one lonely cell. Abortion is murder. The woman has a right to her own body, ok, so do I, I can pick up a knife and stab it at somebody else's heart. What the heck the child has no business there, yeah they don't control where they are it's not their fault. God intends to have the child born therefore the child must be born. Here's another arguement of mine

If a baby was just born and the mother takes out a gun and blows it's head off, is it murder? Hell yes! WHy should that short period in between when it's in and when it's out matter who cares where the baby is living!

To say that GOD Intends..... that must mean you have to have a believe in some sort of devine power that is correctly represented in an organized religion, how can we be forcing believes of a higher power on someone?

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why is it that when someone gives a pro-choice opinion they have to be talked to like this?? I personally believe that abortion under any circumstances is absolutly wrong.... but i can't sit here and act like i know everything, and neither can anyone else, thats why it needs to stay legal.

I DISAGGREE to aborition it is a crime it is killing and it should be banned you never know the babby you are killing may be the cure to AIDS or HIVS it is killing and a crime!

The Great Nation of Putergeeks believes that abortion should be legal. Abortion is a decision best made by a woman and her doctor, NOT the UN or any government.

A baby is alive right from conception even when it's one lonely cell. Abortion is murder. The woman has a right to her own body, ok, so do I, I can pick up a knife and stab it at somebody else's heart. What the heck the child has no business there, yeah they don't control where they are it's not their fault. God intends to have the child born therefore the child must be born. Here's another arguement of mine

If a baby was just born and the mother takes out a gun and blows it's head off, is it murder? Hell yes! WHy should that short period in between when it's in and when it's out matter who cares where the baby is living!

To say that GOD Intends..... that must mean you have to have a believe in some sort of devine power that is correctly represented in an organized religion, how can we be forcing believes of a higher power on someone?

Yes I do believe in God and yes it is a HUGE arguement of mine, number 1 in fact. The bible says it's a sin and the bible's God's word

A baby is alive right from conception even when it's one lonely cell. Abortion is murder. The woman has a right to her own body, ok, so do I, I can pick up a knife and stab it at somebody else's heart. What the heck the child has no business there, yeah they don't control where they are it's not their fault. God intends to have the child born therefore the child must be born. Here's another arguement of mine

If a baby was just born and the mother takes out a gun and blows it's head off, is it murder? Hell yes! WHy should that short period in between when it's in and when it's out matter who cares where the baby is living!

To say that GOD Intends..... that must mean you have to have a believe in some sort of devine power that is correctly represented in an organized religion, how can we be forcing believes of a higher power on someone?

Yes I do believe in God and yes it is a HUGE arguement of mine, number 1 in fact. The bible says it's a sin and the bible's God's word

A baby is alive right from conception even when it's one lonely cell. Abortion is murder. The woman has a right to her own body, ok, so do I, I can pick up a knife and stab it at somebody else's heart. What the heck the child has no business there, yeah they don't control where they are it's not their fault. God intends to have the child born therefore the child must be born. Here's another arguement of mine

If a baby was just born and the mother takes out a gun and blows it's head off, is it murder? Hell yes! WHy should that short period in between when it's in and when it's out matter who cares where the baby is living!

To say that GOD Intends..... that must mean you have to have a believe in some sort of devine power that is correctly represented in an organized religion, how can we be forcing believes of a higher power on someone?

Yes I do believe in God and yes it is a HUGE arguement of mine, number 1 in fact. The bible says it's a sin and the bible's God's word

A baby is alive right from conception even when it's one lonely cell. Abortion is murder. The woman has a right to her own body, ok, so do I, I can pick up a knife and stab it at somebody else's heart. What the heck the child has no business there, yeah they don't control where they are it's not their fault. God intends to have the child born therefore the child must be born. Here's another arguement of mine

If a baby was just born and the mother takes out a gun and blows it's head off, is it murder? Hell yes! WHy should that short period in between when it's in and when it's out matter who cares where the baby is living!

To say that GOD Intends..... that must mean you have to have a believe in some sort of devine power that is correctly represented in an organized religion, how can we be forcing believes of a higher power on someone?

Yes I do believe in God and yes it is a HUGE arguement of mine, number 1 in fact. The bible says it's a sin and the bible's God's word

A baby is alive right from conception even when it's one lonely cell. Abortion is murder. The woman has a right to her own body, ok, so do I, I can pick up a knife and stab it at somebody else's heart. What the heck the child has no business there, yeah they don't control where they are it's not their fault. God intends to have the child born therefore the child must be born. Here's another arguement of mine

If a baby was just born and the mother takes out a gun and blows it's head off, is it murder? Hell yes! WHy should that short period in between when it's in and when it's out matter who cares where the baby is living!

To say that GOD Intends..... that must mean you have to have a believe in some sort of devine power that is correctly represented in an organized religion, how can we be forcing believes of a higher power on someone?

Yes I do believe in God and yes it is a HUGE arguement of mine, number 1 in fact. The bible says it's a sin and the bible's God's word

Really, that specifically? I don't recall reading "Thou shalt not abort," anywhere in the Bible.

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yes we should cos I am a 16 year old girl and if I got pregnant I would have an abortion otherwise my life is ruined and so is that childs. I think we should kill the cells that will one day be a baby and save the child a lot of hurt and one horrible life. We'll be doing mother and child a favour

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Just one more thing about this did anyone ever think about the fact that the mother got pregnant, not like a little fairy flying around going, oh she is now pregnant and so is she oh and her too, I mean come on its her fault no matter what. Even in rape i mean how damn stupid do you have to be to not see a guy in a truck slow down, stop and then force you in the car and off to his evil lair. Yeah i am sry that they were raped but even if some godly interference a lady was raped out from nowhere and then got pregnant and didn't want the child, they could at least put the baby up for adoption. Oh and what about the whole loss of lives then and in the future, millions of your very own citizens are stopped from helping make your nation a great one. So if this piece of shit is enacted at least those nations that are affected by it should have a definite drop in Population growth compared to those who outlaw it like i would.