NationStates Jolt Archive

While reading through the queued proposals, I stumbled across the proposal titled "Ban Minimum Wage Laws."
We in Griffindon emplore our fellow delegates to please, PLEASE approve this proposal, and for all UN members to vote for it when/if it goes to vote.
This is a great and needed proposal.
We would also like to extend our appreciation to Godownia for addressing this issue.

Ulrich Nelson
Griffinian UN Repressentative
Fairhaven UN Delegate

"The government of Big Melon will not support this misguided proposal and will do everything in our power to see that it does not reach quorom.

Everyone deserves a minumum living wage."

Eggbert Honeydew
Big Melon UN Representative
Camp Randall UN Delegate

everyone deserves a minimum amount of pay, im delegate of a regon and im sooooo not suporting that

tag for later, well-reasoned, anti min-wage post

i think everyone deserves the right to a decent wage for a decent days work. some people have altogether too much money and some altogether too little. minimum wage at least makes sure that people can scrape by.

No the minimum wage prevents poor people from earning higher wages. Developed nations with higher minimum wage have a greater percentage of people making the minimum wage and a lower average income than developed nations with a lower minimum wage.

But the biggest problem with minimum wage is that it causes unemployment and black markets. It's a form of price-fixing. And all price-fixing is bad for the economy. The structural unemployment for that particular job varies directly with the square of the difference between the minimum wage and the equilibrium wage, that is what that person would be making without the minimum wage. In addition, a lot of people, this is especially true of poor farmes in the southwest, can't afford to pay people minimum wage, so they pay people less than that (this is called a black-market job). Mexican workers easily accept this. The problem arises from the fact that black market contracts are, by definition, illegal. Therefore, the employer could cheat the worker by refusing to pay and the worker couldn't do anything about it.

The minimum wage primarilly benefits upper-middle-class teens such as myself while harming the poor workers that it allegedly helps.

Abolish the minimum wage NOW!

yeah if this comes to a vote I'll probably have to go against it

Our nation maintains a miniumum wage, and is in favour of all countries adopting a minimum wage. As a result, we cannot support your motion to prevent future legislation; furthermore, we do not consider it to be good practice to pass motions ruling against any future motions of a certain type. The correct approach is not blanket bans, but arguing and voting against the adoption of each motion case-by-case, on the merits or demerits of the proposal.

However, with that being said, neither do we approve of most of the minimum wage proposals put to the UN. Writing a UN policy for a minimum wage is extremely difficult, and must - as with all UN resolutions, in our opinion - be written in language sufficiently broad as to allow for regional differences and divergent economies. The UN, in our view, is not the correct forum for comprehensive, binding legislation, but rather the fucntion of the UN should be the development and statement of guiding principles and standards that can be interpreted sympathetically to local needs by member nations.

Regards,
Mr. John Major,
Chair, Senate Foreign Affairs committee
The Confederacy of the Missouri

My little playthings live and die at my command. Of course they will work for free if it is My will.

*Ahem*. That is, the United Nations should be pleased that my subjects and those of other nations are willing to make any necessary sacrifices for the greater good, keeping the Khadhulu economy and others powering along.

Besides, minimum wages are a domestic matter, and should not be interfered with by outside agencies.

"The government of Big Melon will not support this misguided proposal and will do everything in our power to see that it does not reach quorom.

Everyone deserves a minumum living wage."

By what standard?

No the minimum wage prevents poor people from earning higher wages. Developed nations with higher minimum wage have a greater percentage of people making the minimum wage and a lower average income than developed nations with a lower minimum wage.

But the biggest problem with minimum wage is that it causes unemployment and black markets. It's a form of price-fixing. And all price-fixing is bad for the economy. The structural unemployment for that particular job varies directly with the square of the difference between the minimum wage and the equilibrium wage, that is what that person would be making without the minimum wage. In addition, a lot of people, this is especially true of poor farmes in the southwest, can't afford to pay people minimum wage, so they pay people less than that (this is called a black-market job). Mexican workers easily accept this. The problem arises from the fact that black market contracts are, by definition, illegal. Therefore, the employer could cheat the worker by refusing to pay and the worker couldn't do anything about it.

The minimum wage primarilly benefits upper-middle-class teens such as myself while harming the poor workers that it allegedly helps.

Abolish the minimum wage NOW!

OOC (very much so): Nations with a higher minimum wage have a larger percentage of people making the minimum wage because those who would be making LESS then the minimum wage now are making the minimum wage - nothing wrong with that.

"Average" income is meaningless - a few very high earners can make the average very high while few people actually earn that much money.

The minimum wage isn't flawless, but it helps because those at the bottom get more, which means that they can buy more goods and therefore benefit the economy. That reduces unemployment.

do it in your own country. don't try to corrupt mine as well.

No the minimum wage prevents poor people from earning higher wages. Developed nations with higher minimum wage have a greater percentage of people making the minimum wage and a lower average income than developed nations with a lower minimum wage.

But the biggest problem with minimum wage is that it causes unemployment and black markets. It's a form of price-fixing. And all price-fixing is bad for the economy. The structural unemployment for that particular job varies directly with the square of the difference between the minimum wage and the equilibrium wage, that is what that person would be making without the minimum wage. In addition, a lot of people, this is especially true of poor farmes in the southwest, can't afford to pay people minimum wage, so they pay people less than that (this is called a black-market job). Mexican workers easily accept this. The problem arises from the fact that black market contracts are, by definition, illegal. Therefore, the employer could cheat the worker by refusing to pay and the worker couldn't do anything about it.

The minimum wage primarilly benefits upper-middle-class teens such as myself while harming the poor workers that it allegedly helps.

Abolish the minimum wage NOW!

We need some kind of minimum wage high enough to ensure that everyone has enough for an acceptable standard of living. And in my opinion, an "acceptable" standard is quite high, because I believe that, in a society that could easily achieve it, all human beings deserve a good quality of life. I'm not sure about the benefits of high or low minimum wages, except that whatever it is must fulfil the above criterion.

How do you work out the equilibrium wage? Couldn't it easily be higher than the minimum wage?

No the minimum wage prevents poor people from earning higher wages. Developed nations with higher minimum wage have a greater percentage of people making the minimum wage and a lower average income than developed nations with a lower minimum wage.

But the biggest problem with minimum wage is that it causes unemployment and black markets. It's a form of price-fixing. And all price-fixing is bad for the economy. The structural unemployment for that particular job varies directly with the square of the difference between the minimum wage and the equilibrium wage, that is what that person would be making without the minimum wage. In addition, a lot of people, this is especially true of poor farmes in the southwest, can't afford to pay people minimum wage, so they pay people less than that (this is called a black-market job). Mexican workers easily accept this. The problem arises from the fact that black market contracts are, by definition, illegal. Therefore, the employer could cheat the worker by refusing to pay and the worker couldn't do anything about it.

The minimum wage primarilly benefits upper-middle-class teens such as myself while harming the poor workers that it allegedly helps.

Abolish the minimum wage NOW!

We need some kind of minimum wage high enough to ensure that everyone has enough for an acceptable standard of living. And in my opinion, an "acceptable" standard is quite high, because I believe that, in a society that could easily achieve it, all human beings deserve a good quality of life. I'm not sure about the benefits of high or low minimum wages, except that whatever it is must fulfil the above criterion.

How do you work out the equilibrium wage? Couldn't it easily be higher than the minimum wage?

The eqilibrium wage is the wage that would be earned in a purely free-market system (no price-fixing). For example, the equilibrium wage for McDonald's cashiers in a inner-city area might only be $4/hour. The minimum wage artificially raises it $1.15/hour, which causes a lot of unemployment and black markets.

If the equilibrium wage is above the minimum wage, then the minimum wage will have NO EFFECT. So a minimum wage of $0.01/hour would be teh same as no minimum wage at all, since all jobs have equilibrium wages of higher than $0.01 an hour.

Whereas the equilibrium wage for corporate lawyers might be, say, $200,000 a year. Et cetera.

No the minimum wage prevents poor people from earning higher wages. Developed nations with higher minimum wage have a greater percentage of people making the minimum wage and a lower average income than developed nations with a lower minimum wage.

But the biggest problem with minimum wage is that it causes unemployment and black markets. It's a form of price-fixing. And all price-fixing is bad for the economy. The structural unemployment for that particular job varies directly with the square of the difference between the minimum wage and the equilibrium wage, that is what that person would be making without the minimum wage. In addition, a lot of people, this is especially true of poor farmes in the southwest, can't afford to pay people minimum wage, so they pay people less than that (this is called a black-market job). Mexican workers easily accept this. The problem arises from the fact that black market contracts are, by definition, illegal. Therefore, the employer could cheat the worker by refusing to pay and the worker couldn't do anything about it.

The minimum wage primarilly benefits upper-middle-class teens such as myself while harming the poor workers that it allegedly helps.

Abolish the minimum wage NOW!

OOC (very much so): Nations with a higher minimum wage have a larger percentage of people making the minimum wage because those who would be making LESS then the minimum wage now are making the minimum wage - nothing wrong with that.

"Average" income is meaningless - a few very high earners can make the average very high while few people actually earn that much money.

The minimum wage isn't flawless, but it helps because those at the bottom get more, which means that they can buy more goods and therefore benefit the economy. That reduces unemployment.

Not even the notorious pinko Alan Krueger argues that the minimum wage reduces unemployment. He argues that the minimum wage is economically sound, but concedes that it causes unemployment. It's an economic fact that the minimum wage (or any sort of upwards price-fixing) causes unemployment. That's why Germany, with Western Europe's highest minimum wage, has Western Europe's highest unemployment. If you still don't believe me, just think about it this way: If Congress passes a law making it so that pencils must sell for more than $50/each, very few people will buy pencils. Since long-term supply is constant, this means that you will have a huge surplus of pencils. Apply that to the labor market. A surplus of labor is called "unemployment".

If you think average income is meaningless, go live in East Timor. Very few of their people make more than any other person, but the average income is quite low. Fact - Countries with higher average income tend to have higher qualities of life.

That's why Germany, with Western Europe's highest minimum wage, has Western Europe's highest unemployment.

Huh. There are many reasons for Germany's unemployment, the minimum wage is not one of them. This is because Germany actually has no statutory minimum wage. I believe Luxembourg currently has the highest minimum wage rate in Europe, and it doesn't have the highest unemployment.

Sorry to get all factual, there... :wink:

The position of the government of the Commonwealth of Miles Bush remains that the minimum wage should be maintained. We will therefore vote against it, and call upon on all other civilised socially aware governments to do the same.

That's why Germany, with Western Europe's highest minimum wage, has Western Europe's highest unemployment.

Huh. There are many reasons for Germany's unemployment, the minimum wage is not one of them. This is because Germany actually has no statutory minimum wage. I believe Luxembourg currently has the highest minimum wage rate in Europe, and it doesn't have the highest unemployment.

Sorry to get all factual, there... :wink:

Of countries with actual economies... Germany has the highest minimum wage. Any first year econ student, even communist econ students, will tell you that, in a free-market economy, the minimum wage, or any other sort of price-fixing, causes unemployment. There is a way that you can have an above equilibrium minimum wage without causing higher unemployment, but that involves restructering the whole economy around the state, which is even worse than a little unemployment.

"The government of Big Melon will not support this misguided proposal and will do everything in our power to see that it does not reach quorom.

Everyone deserves a minumum living wage."

By what standard?

A wage with which they can buy the basic necessities - food, housing, clothing, etc. Not a wage high enough to make outlandish purchases, but a wage high enough to ensure they have life's basic necessities.

Minimum wage is just wrong-headed. Governmrnt has no place limiting the voluntary agreements individuals are allowed to enter into.

yeah, duh... let people take advantage of others with less to begin with... great.

"The government of Big Melon will not support this misguided proposal and will do everything in our power to see that it does not reach quorom.

Everyone deserves a minumum living wage."

By what standard?

A wage with which they can buy the basic necessities - food, housing, clothing, etc. Not a wage high enough to make outlandish purchases, but a wage high enough to ensure they have life's basic necessities.

And who shall pay for this, and why would you force someone to pay a higher wage than might otherwise be required for a position?

Minimum wage isn't enough to live on really... an hour's work should be worth at least the $5.15 it is now... just because that's time you're taking from someone...

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for. What is the point in having a strong, economically powerful government if it is only for the benefit of the few rather than the many.
The whole point in government should surely be to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible in the fairest way as possible. Abolishing the minimum wage would be in gross neglect of the responsibilty of government.

Wages are a private matter between employer and employee. If an employee is willing to work for less, that's his decision and HIS ALONE. If his time is worth more to him than what the employer offers--if he finds the value he gains by accepting the employer's offer to be less than the value he must expend to uphold his end of the bargain--he is free to reject the offer.

If, on the other hand, he finds the value he gains by accepting the employer's offer to be greater than the value he must expend to uphold his end of the bargain, he is free to accept the offer, whatever that offer may be. It is his decision. No one else's.

Why is that the point of a government? Doesn't that then hurt the highest few that have to pay for the people who have't made their way in life?
It's unfortunate, but they have to be held accountable for the fact that they've lived a sorry excuse for a life, or enjoy poverty.

Yes. As we have seen, one thing the government is good at, is keeping people poor. We shouldn't allow all nations to be able to suppress people with the stamp of approval from the UN... They can do that in their own little countries, but we cannot approve this abomination.

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for.

No, the purpose of government is to govern--to ensure that no individual uses fraud or violence against the person or property of another individual without his consent, to settle disputes that arise between individuals, and to protect individuals from foreign or domestic aggression. Beyond that, government has no place regulating the private agreements between individuals--including wages.

Yes. As we have seen, one thing the government is good at, is keeping people poor. We shouldn't allow all nations to be able to suppress people with the stamp of approval from the UN... They can do that in their own little countries, but we cannot approve this abomination.

How is not regulating private agreements between individuals suppressing anybody? Hell, it's making people more free!

If you think that telling people what agreeements they may or not make is an abomination, then you're an amoral scumbag.

The government needs to govern people... Not allow them to do whatever the hell they want. People are corrupt and will abuse any power you give them. Are you really trying to abolish the middle-class again? This proposal will create an ever-growing lower class, destroy the middle-class, and feed the abusive upper-class.

Society does not exist as CLASSES--it exists as INDIVIDUALS. Each individual is free to decide for himself what his time is worth. If someone offers him less, he's free to reject that offer. It's a private matter between employer and employee--stop trying to stick your nose in where it doesn't belong.

I swear, I get sick and tired of you right-wingers trying to force everyone to conform to your ideals. As long as you're not being physically harmed, what's the problem?

Don't call me right-wing because I'm right. I'm hardly right-wing because I think people have rights... That's like calling me facist for thinking guns are appropriate in certain situations... While I believe nuclear warheads should rarely rarely (if ever) be used.

I swear, I get sick and tired of you right-wingers trying to force everyone to conform to your ideals. As long as you're not being physically harmed, what's the problem?

Ith, I normally don't disagree with you but I can't let that one slide... If I remember my politics correctly it's the right wing that favors capitalism... Anyway I do beleive the minimum wage is left-wingish / socialistic policy not conservative / right-winged capitalist dribble.


Anyway onto the proposal. Caras Galadon urges all proper-minded and socialist nations to NOT approve this resolution. Besides opening the populace to exploitation by the evil and demented system of capitalism, it would reck my economy. My wage lwas are hte central part of the regulation of my economy along with tariffs. I imagine it'd have a similar effect on other socialist economies.

I swear, I get sick and tired of you right-wingers trying to force everyone to conform to your ideals. As long as you're not being physically harmed, what's the problem?

Ith, I normally don't disagree with you but I can't let that one slide... If I remember my politics correctly it's the right wing that favors capitalism... Anyway I do beleive the minimum wage is left-wingish / socialistic policy not conservative / right-winged capitalist dribble.


Thanks. I think he wanted to eat me. :)

Its bad and good, but I do think that the good is more.

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for. What is the point in having a strong, economically powerful government if it is only for the benefit of the few rather than the many.
The whole point in government should surely be to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible in the fairest way as possible. Abolishing the minimum wage would be in gross neglect of the responsibilty of government.

Government has no business involving itself in the economy, period.

I swear, I get sick and tired of you right-wingers trying to force everyone to conform to your ideals. As long as you're not being physically harmed, what's the problem?

Ith, I normally don't disagree with you but I can't let that one slide... If I remember my politics correctly it's the right wing that favors capitalism... Anyway I do beleive the minimum wage is left-wingish / socialistic policy not conservative / right-winged capitalist dribble.


Anyway onto the proposal. Caras Galadon urges all proper-minded and socialist nations to NOT approve this resolution. Besides opening the populace to exploitation by the evil and demented system of capitalism, it would reck my economy. My wage lwas are hte central part of the regulation of my economy along with tariffs. I imagine it'd have a similar effect on other socialist economies.

How would it wreck your economy? If one of my economic policies is killing the Jews, abolishing Jew-killing would help my economy, not hurt it.

Society does not exist as CLASSES--it exists as INDIVIDUALS. Each individual is free to decide for himself what his time is worth. If someone offers him less, he's free to reject that offer. It's a private matter between employer and employee--stop trying to stick your nose in where it doesn't belong.

I swear, I get sick and tired of you right-wingers trying to force everyone to conform to your ideals. As long as you're not being physically harmed, what's the problem?

You do realise that here your advocating a viewpoint which is extremely right wing. Sadly it is not always the case that an individual can pick and choose whatever job they like because they're not qualified to do so. Hey I suppose all the Asian kids who work in sweatshops for appalling rates in appalling conditions have done so because they've decided what their time is worth, rather than the fact that they actually want something to eat.

but ithuania doesn't seem to be able to see that.

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for.

No, the purpose of government is to govern--to ensure that no individual uses fraud or violence against the person or property of another individual without his consent, to settle disputes that arise between individuals, and to protect individuals from foreign or domestic aggression. Beyond that, government has no place regulating the private agreements between individuals--including wages.


Democracy comes from the word 'demos' meaning rule by the many. Given that government power is paid and provided for by the people of any given country and only legitimated through their electoral support how could you possibly argue that a government should not attempt to represent it's people's best interests. The idea of democracy is that we elect representatives to put forward our views rather than electing them so that they can allow themselves to become richer while the vast majority of people become poorer.
It's odd because I'm actually fairly right-wing when it comes to business as it benefits the economy, but if you begin to abolish systems like this which allbeit lead to a stronger economy - you have to wonder who the economy is working for and what is the point in paying for a government which does not represent the people's interests.

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for. What is the point in having a strong, economically powerful government if it is only for the benefit of the few rather than the many.
The whole point in government should surely be to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible in the fairest way as possible. Abolishing the minimum wage would be in gross neglect of the responsibilty of government.

Government has no business involving itself in the economy, period.

I disagree

i don't believe the government should do everything people want, but they should do whatever is in their best interests... not whatever they're interested in... 8)

i don't believe the government should do everything people want, but they should do whatever is in their best interests... not whatever they're interested in... 8)

I would pretty much agree with that.

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for. What is the point in having a strong, economically powerful government if it is only for the benefit of the few rather than the many.
The whole point in government should surely be to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible in the fairest way as possible. Abolishing the minimum wage would be in gross neglect of the responsibilty of government.

Government has no business involving itself in the economy, period.

I disagree

You can disagree all you like. But the politicians have no ability to understand the economy, since they do not have any bit of the necessary data. All they can do is unbalance the economy.

Politicians only screw the economy up? Well, they are awfully good at it, but I think they have the hidden potential to actually help the economy.

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for. What is the point in having a strong, economically powerful government if it is only for the benefit of the few rather than the many.
The whole point in government should surely be to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible in the fairest way as possible. Abolishing the minimum wage would be in gross neglect of the responsibilty of government.

Government has no business involving itself in the economy, period.

I disagree

You can disagree all you like. But the politicians have no ability to understand the economy, since they do not have any bit of the necessary data. All they can do is unbalance the economy.

What on earth are you talking about - government has access to a vast array of data concerning the economy.

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for. What is the point in having a strong, economically powerful government if it is only for the benefit of the few rather than the many.
The whole point in government should surely be to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible in the fairest way as possible. Abolishing the minimum wage would be in gross neglect of the responsibilty of government.

Government has no business involving itself in the economy, period.

I disagree

You can disagree all you like. But the politicians have no ability to understand the economy, since they do not have any bit of the necessary data. All they can do is unbalance the economy.

What on earth are you talking about - government has access to a vast array of data concerning the economy.

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for. What is the point in having a strong, economically powerful government if it is only for the benefit of the few rather than the many.
The whole point in government should surely be to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible in the fairest way as possible. Abolishing the minimum wage would be in gross neglect of the responsibilty of government.

Government has no business involving itself in the economy, period.

I disagree

You can disagree all you like. But the politicians have no ability to understand the economy, since they do not have any bit of the necessary data. All they can do is unbalance the economy.

What on earth are you talking about - government has access to a vast array of data concerning the economy.

Whoops

How would it wreck your economy? If one of my economic policies is killing the Jews, abolishing Jew-killing would help my economy, not hurt it.

I'll point out that Jews are probably the single largest part of capatilist economy. Anyway, have you read my national description? Private enterprise is illegal in my country ((capitalism is too BTW)). Now let's think this would cause me to assume a very carefully controlled economy. Anyway if the government controls the economy then in essence banning the minimum wage would would be putting the power back with the people it appoints to lead a particular company, taking out some of hte government control starting an unbalancement. Add to that the government appointed these people to oversee all this, I'm going with the assumption here that most people are inherently neutral or evil and highly corruptible, and I can just see them droping to paying people less than 2.5 rupees ((current min wage. 1 rupee = approx. 2 USD)).

Ok let's sum that up, basically it's introducing an uncontrollable variable into a controlled system, namely putting power with individuals, causing unpredictable results. In other words what I'm saying is, it isn't broke so don't fix it.


EDIT: This was supposed to be as Caras Galadon. I'm just his puppet. Sorry there global.. I'm just too lazy to delete it and log in as CG and repost it...

A government is supposed to represent the best interests of the people it is ruling for. What is the point in having a strong, economically powerful government if it is only for the benefit of the few rather than the many.
The whole point in government should surely be to raise the quality of life for as many people as possible in the fairest way as possible. Abolishing the minimum wage would be in gross neglect of the responsibilty of government.

Government has no business involving itself in the economy, period.

I disagree

You can disagree all you like. But the politicians have no ability to understand the economy, since they do not have any bit of the necessary data. All they can do is unbalance the economy.

What on earth are you talking about - government has access to a vast array of data concerning the economy.

Not the nitty-gritty of it. Not the day-to-day aspect. All it can do is get some generalities and induce the balance to sway from where it has an equilibrium.

How would it wreck your economy? If one of my economic policies is killing the Jews, abolishing Jew-killing would help my economy, not hurt it.

I'll point out that Jews are probably the single largest part of capatilist economy. Anyway, have you read my national description? Private enterprise is illegal in my country ((capitalism is too BTW)). Now let's think this would cause me to assume a very carefully controlled economy. Anyway if the government controls the economy then in essence banning the minimum wage would would be putting the power back with the people it appoints to lead a particular company, taking out some of hte government control starting an unbalancement. Add to that the government appointed these people to oversee all this, I'm going with the assumption here that most people are inherently neutral or evil and highly corruptible, and I can just see them droping to paying people less than 2.5 rupees ((current min wage. 1 rupee = approx. 2 USD)).

Ok let's sum that up, basically it's introducing an uncontrollable variable into a controlled system, namely putting power with individuals, causing unpredictable results. In other words what I'm saying is, it isn't broke so don't fix it.


EDIT: This was supposed to be as Caras Galadon. I'm just his puppet. Sorry there global.. I'm just too lazy to delete it and log in as CG and repost it...

You do realize that government is comprised of individuals right? The government is basically a trigger-happy association of individuals. If you work with the assumption that individuals are highly corruptible, then it follows that governments are even more corruptible due to the fact that their power is amplified.

The economy isn't supposed to be a controlled system... that's called growth.

I think without a minimum wage law we could have more cheap labor from Mexico.

How would it wreck your economy? If one of my economic policies is killing the Jews, abolishing Jew-killing would help my economy, not hurt it.

I'll point out that Jews are probably the single largest part of capatilist economy. Anyway, have you read my national description? Private enterprise is illegal in my country ((capitalism is too BTW)). Now let's think this would cause me to assume a very carefully controlled economy. Anyway if the government controls the economy then in essence banning the minimum wage would would be putting the power back with the people it appoints to lead a particular company, taking out some of hte government control starting an unbalancement. Add to that the government appointed these people to oversee all this, I'm going with the assumption here that most people are inherently neutral or evil and highly corruptible, and I can just see them droping to paying people less than 2.5 rupees ((current min wage. 1 rupee = approx. 2 USD)).

Ok let's sum that up, basically it's introducing an uncontrollable variable into a controlled system, namely putting power with individuals, causing unpredictable results. In other words what I'm saying is, it isn't broke so don't fix it.


EDIT: This was supposed to be as Caras Galadon. I'm just his puppet. Sorry there global.. I'm just too lazy to delete it and log in as CG and repost it...

You do realize that government is comprised of individuals right? The government is basically a trigger-happy association of individuals. If you work with the assumption that individuals are highly corruptible, then it follows that governments are even more corruptible due to the fact that their power is amplified.

The economy isn't supposed to be a controlled system... that's called growth.


I agree with you that there should be as few controls as possible on an economic system, but you can't simply ignore the rights of the workers. What's the point in an economy that turns out a huge GNP if it only benefits a small percentage of the population. Furthermore it seems fundamentally wrong to build a society on an unfair principle whereby those to weak to protect themselves are exploited for the benefit of the economy.

The companies would pay people as little as they can get away with if there were no laws against it.

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Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
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The companies would pay people as little as they can get away with if there were no laws against it.

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Would they?

What evidence have you of that?

The companies would pay people as little as they can get away with if there were no laws against it.

According to that logic, everyone would be making subsistence wages. That Malthusian position has been throughouly refuted over the last two centuries. The vast majority of even blue-collar workers make higher than minimum wage, so that shows that even without laws, people are still paid well.

ARE YOU KIDDING?
The minimum wage is one of the most important things in civil rights- without it, anyone can be treated unfairly- it will increase poverty. The economy will get more money because there will be more circulation of it (more products bought) meaning no depression in addition to a greater, more stable economy and a stronger nation. :x

ARE YOU KIDDING?
The minimum wage is one of the most important things in civil rights- without it, anyone can be treated unfairly- it will increase poverty. The economy will get more money because there will be more circulation of it (more products bought) meaning no depression in addition to a greater, more stable economy and a stronger nation. :x

How is it unfair if employees agree to it? Let them decide for themselves what they're willing to work for. If no one agrees to work for ten cents an hour, then employees will have to offer more or they'll be up shit creek.

Without a minimum livable wage, what you would have would amount IMHO to a legal form of slavery.

No, it wouldn't. Slavery means you're forced to work under the threat of violence. Slaves in the antebellum US were fairly well compensated, but they were slaves because they were held against their will. Low-paying work is not slavery because the employee ultimately agrees to be there without any overhanging threat of violence.

Ithuania must come from a place where he has lots of lovely job options like flipping hamburgers or cleaning school bathrooms. You're right. your time isn't worth fifteen cents an hour.

Child Labor Laws .... i say once and i will say again a child has no business doin such hard work i say they should be goin to school so they will be the future of tomarrow so they will one day take our place so i am againist it!

Ithuania must come from a place where he has lots of lovely job options like flipping hamburgers or cleaning school bathrooms. You're right. your time isn't worth fifteen cents an hour.

And the minimum wage makes even those jobs unavailable.

Remember, there are downsides to these things. For the minimum wage namely its inefficiency, unemployment, and lost job and promotion opportunities for low-income people.

The only people who really benefit from minimum wage are upper-middle-class teenagers from areas around New York.

No the minimum wage prevents poor people from earning higher wages. Developed nations with higher minimum wage have a greater percentage of people making the minimum wage and a lower average income than developed nations with a lower minimum wage.

But the biggest problem with minimum wage is that it causes unemployment and black markets. It's a form of price-fixing. And all price-fixing is bad for the economy. The structural unemployment for that particular job varies directly with the square of the difference between the minimum wage and the equilibrium wage, that is what that person would be making without the minimum wage. In addition, a lot of people, this is especially true of poor farmes in the southwest, can't afford to pay people minimum wage, so they pay people less than that (this is called a black-market job). Mexican workers easily accept this. The problem arises from the fact that black market contracts are, by definition, illegal. Therefore, the employer could cheat the worker by refusing to pay and the worker couldn't do anything about it.

The minimum wage primarilly benefits upper-middle-class teens such as myself while harming the poor workers that it allegedly helps.

Abolish the minimum wage NOW!

I can honestly say I've never fully understood and even less believed this line of Libertarian argument. Price-fixing is sometimes good for the economy, as in tariffs which can keep domestic companies in business and increase government spending. Minimum wage makes sure that everyone gets paid decently for the work that they do. No one should ever have to work for under a certain amount.

The black market is just as much a problem for employers who can afford to pay decently. Why in the hell does Wal-Mart use illegal workers? Surely a company of that size can afford to pay everyone far more than minimum wage. The black market for labor is a problem for law enforcement, not minimum wage legislation.

Many US states have a lower minimum wage for small employers, which helps mitigate the valid problems you cite about small employers.

Lastly, the only example I've ever heard of no minimum wage being good for an economy is in Singapore. I daresay a country the size of Singapore with an economy that specialized is not a good model for larger, more diverse economies. For that matter, I'm sure the poorly paid immigrant laborers of Singapore would rather make a decent wage and please don't try to convince me that unskilled immigrant laborers would ever make more than minimum wage if there were no minimum wage. There would never be any incentive for a company to do so; they'll just fire anyone who asks for more money.

Whether it is good or not is irrelevant. Minimum wage is just wrong-headed, as wages are a private agreement between employer and employee. Government has no place getting involved.

Whether it is good or not is irrelevant. Minimum wage is just wrong-headed, as wages are a private agreement between employer and employee. Government has no place getting involved.

According to who? You?

According to the only set of rational principles that exists.

Don't bother with Ithuania. As a fundamentalist preacher of the Religion of Capitalism (TM), he believes that his own particular set of twisted morals are the *TRUE* moral values, and anyone who says otherwise is an evil immoral heathen.

(notice the irony: according to every religion is existence, Ithuania is the "evil immoral heathen")

Don't bother with Ithuania. As a fundamentalist preacher of the Religion of Capitalism (TM), he believes that his own particular set of twisted morals are the *TRUE* moral values, and anyone who says otherwise is an evil immoral heathen.

(notice the irony: according to every religion is existence, Ithuania is the "evil immoral heathen")

There was already a rather lengthy minimum wage thread.

It's true now as it was then, wages are meaningless in my country. The tax rate is 100%. Whether I give them a 1 percent increase or 1 million percent increase, it's all tax.

Then why are you talking, old chap? :)

According to the only set of rational principles that exists.

Well you see the idea is that you argue why these principles are rational and others counter-argue.

How long will it be before the poor stop accepting ithuania's oppression?

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Mliêstôlkakûmek(Love all as you love yourself)
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg

You're the one oppressing people--you're the one who thinks it's OK for government to come in and dictate the kinds of personal choices people are allowed to make.

Socialist scum...

why is it every time i anwser a reply no one writes in it again and no one anwser my topics there good topics!

I can honestly say I've never fully understood and even less believed this line of Libertarian argument. Price-fixing is sometimes good for the economy, as in tariffs which can keep domestic companies in business and increase government spending. Minimum wage makes sure that everyone gets paid decently for the work that they do. No one should ever have to work for under a certain amount.

The black market is just as much a problem for employers who can afford to pay decently. Why in the hell does Wal-Mart use illegal workers? Surely a company of that size can afford to pay everyone far more than minimum wage. The black market for labor is a problem for law enforcement, not minimum wage legislation.

Many US states have a lower minimum wage for small employers, which helps mitigate the valid problems you cite about small employers.

Lastly, the only example I've ever heard of no minimum wage being good for an economy is in Singapore. I daresay a country the size of Singapore with an economy that specialized is not a good model for larger, more diverse economies. For that matter, I'm sure the poorly paid immigrant laborers of Singapore would rather make a decent wage and please don't try to convince me that unskilled immigrant laborers would ever make more than minimum wage if there were no minimum wage. There would never be any incentive for a company to do so; they'll just fire anyone who asks for more money.

1) Tariffs are NOT good for the economy. Maybe in the very short term, but this causes technological complacency and reciprocal tariffs. If you look at the 1920s, we had our lowest tariff in 1919-20, then we raised our tariffs throughout the roaring twenties. Other countries eventually did the same and not surprisingly, the crash of 1929 devastated the entire world. Only after multilateral tarriff-slashing agreements in 1933-34 did the Great Depression finally subside everywhere. Europe's heavily tariffed economies right now are performing much worse than the United States, which right now has extremely low tariffs. China did major tariff slashing in the early nineties, and that increased economic growth drastically.

2) Wal-Mart may theoretically be able to afford to pay workers more, but the value of those workers' jobs are LOWER than the minimum wage. If they were higher, then they would be paid higher than the minimum wage. If many workers want to take a job and tehre's only so much demand, the price (wage) will go down and more workers will be hired. It's accepted economic theory. My neighbor could theoretically pay me $20,000 to cut his lawn, but that's clearly above market value, so he would pay me considerably less than $20,000. If hte minimum wage is $20,000, then he will have to pay me a black market wage, which means that I can't legally enforce that agreement, which basically has the same effect as legalizing fraud and enterprise corruption.

3) Minimum wage hurts the economy. Look at Germany. Highest minimum wage of any major country in Western Europe. Highest unemployment, some of hte slowest economic growth.

4) If comapnies fired everyone who asked for more money, they wouldn't have any laborers. VERY FEW workers, skilled or unskilled, make the minimum wage in the United States.

Think about it this way. Let's theoretically set the minimum wage to $1,000,000 an hour. Any logical person who doesn't support laws against bad weather will realize that this will NOT help anybody. Almost no one in teh country will haev legal jobs, we'll have massive black-market activity, negative growth, etc., etc. ANY above-equilibrium minimum wage has that effect, albeit just on a smaller scale.

i need endorsements hlp me some one telegrm me!

Global Market,
most if not all of Germany's problems are not connected to minimum wage:

1) The still nowhere to be seen full reintegration of the former East Germany into Germany. It was thought back in 1990 that the reunification would go very smoothly witht eh East eager for Capitalism.

One of the biggest miscues in this was pegging the old Ostmark at 1 Deutschmark.

2) Being still a more manufacturing ecomony, Germany is going to be more sensitive to fluctuation in commodities, especially oil,stell,iron,copper,etc.

3) They made a huge error in pegging the €uro at 2 DM, it would have better for German consumers to have made it 4 DM=€ 1.

4) They were badly exposed when the Asian markets had the freefall in 1998.

Explain how any of this has to do with minimum wages.