NationStates Jolt Archive

Abortion is the murder of an unborn child, end of story. We must to an end to this silent genocide. Every day thousands of potential lives are killed by sluts and whores who in the first place should not have been having sex.

It matters not what religion you are, you will realize that if abortion is not stopped there will be no future. If you are Chritian, Jewish, etc. you should vote for this.

If you don't belive abortion is wrong, I personally pray that your parents should have aborted your sorry ass. "Curse to they who support death, praise to those who save lives."

*Delegates please support: Anti-Abortion proposal

BTW: polls screwd up

Abortion is the murder of an unborn child, end of story. We must to an end to this silent genocide. Every day thousands of potential lives are killed by sluts and whores who in the first place should not have been having sex.

It matters not what religion you are, you will realize that if abortion is not stopped there will be no future. If you are Chritian, Jewish, etc. you should vote for this.

If religion has nothiong to do with it, why bring up Christians and Jews etc?


If you don't belive abortion is wrong, I personally pray that your parents should have aborted your sorry ass. "Curse to they who support death, praise to those who save lives."

*Delegates please support: Anti-Abortion proposal

So an unborn child has a right to live, but people who dont agree with you dont? Doesnt that contradict your statement? Doesnt killing say, a slut (your words, not mine) eliminate the 'potentional life' she could make?

Also, since you voiced that these so called 'sluts' and 'whores', who per your own words, "who in the first place should not have been having sex." as well, who determines who is a slut/whore etc? Personally I dont believe in polyamory, but I know there's some nations out there that do and thus will probably be offended by said statement.

Just something to ponder...

Religion should not be a main factor, where as if you belong to a religion you should understand that you mainly believe that life is to be preserved. As in your question about killing sluts who have abortion, those who are going to have abortions should be arrested forced to have the child, then either convinced it is wrong or be shot.

What about cases of rape or deformity? Not every woman who get's pregnant accidentally is a 'slut' or a 'whore'.

What about cases of rape or deformity? Not every woman who get's pregnant accidentally is a 'slut' or a 'whore'.

I am very conservative when it comes to abortion. however, I support it when the woman's life is in danger

Here is a great site on pro-abortion. Please read it and think before you make you decision. http://www.abortionisprolife.com/

My nation does not care what religion or faith your nation falls under, or what moral beliefs you hold. You have no right to tell my people what they can and cannot do to their own bodies, I personally do not like abortion and doubt under any circumstance I would condone it but it is not mine or YOUR place to say what anyone else can believe is or isn' right.

My nation does not care what religion or faith your nation falls under, or what moral beliefs you hold. You have no right to tell my people what they can and cannot do to their own bodies, I personally do not like abortion and doubt under any circumstance I would condone it but it is not mine or YOUR place to say what anyone else can believe is or isn' right.

Okay . . .

No not okay, if I did read the initial message correctly, you defined women who have abortions as "sluts and whores"

Right, before the lynch mob take you out and do to you what you got coming, I'd like to pioint a few things out...

One, I am a guy, this is unbiased sex wise, so to speak.

Secondly, you are a ignorant fool,

Thirdly the serious stuff:

Have you ever heard of a medical abortion? Its basically what occurs when it is found that the birth may or will lead to if not the death of one party (Mother or child) then both parties, this can be from enviromental effects, genetic or other.

Now, accidents happen. This is one reason I am pro womens choice for abortion. Its is my belief and that of those in "my nation" that a woman should ultimately control what is done to her body. And when an abortion is carried out before the embro is at the stage of high (human) level thought patterns it is technically not a sentient being and is little more then a clump of cells, sorry if that is a little impersonal and cold, but thats the way it is biologically.

Next, not wanting to use too emotive an argument, if a woman is pack or singely rapped, and this event leads to pregnancy, should she be restricted from preventing the birth, if that is her choice, after all, the simple psychological benefit due to her control of the rejection can in itself be healing to her after all she endures. And after all that, its the least a society that failed to protect her can allow for her to do. IF it is her choice.

Who are you, to limit and restrict a persons decision to make the ultimate choice about THEIR future. Many are unable to go on with a pregnancy, and it is recorded that many who were forced to ultimately suffered magnified post natal depression, culminating in suicide.

You can be callous, you can order around people and tell them to do, but you have no right to control how they think, nor the chemistry and creative abilities of their bodies, for better or worse.

Oh and by the way, I've never heard of a "pro-abortionist" activist throwing a bomb into a building to kill and maim, and to the "pro-lifes" who do, well, how exactly "pro-life" is that.

After all, the ones that throw bombs or shoot the security guards are no better then those that slay innocent passers by because of their religious choices, would you dictate those to us too?

With little regard for opinions, but with regard to your strenght to voice them, A Rep of Komokom.

Ahem, I clicked the linky above to the abortion (pro) site, and figured this was appropriate to sum up my opinions

" I cannot project the degree of hatred required to make those women run around in crusades against abortion. Hatred is what they certainly project, not love for the embryos, which is a piece of nonsense no one could experience, but hatred, a virulent hatred for an unnamed object...Their hatred is directed against human beings as such, against the mind, against reason, against ambition, against success, against love, against any value that brings happiness to human life. In compliance with the dishonesty that dominates today's intellectual field, they call themselves 'pro-life.' "
— Ayn Rand

And if that aint it in a nutshell, then nuttin is.

With sadnss at the emotional and physical extremes perpetuated by mis-informed individuals, A Rep of Komokom.

Abortion is the murder of an unborn child, end of story. We must to an end to this silent genocide. Every day thousands of potential lives are killed by sluts and whores who in the first place should not have been having sex.

It matters not what religion you are, you will realize that if abortion is not stopped there will be no future. If you are Chritian, Jewish, etc. you should vote for this.

If you don't belive abortion is wrong, I personally pray that your parents should have aborted your sorry ass. "Curse to they who support death, praise to those who save lives."

*Delegates please support: Anti-Abortion proposal

BTW: polls screwd up


I should point you to two thread you may find interesting. You will have to find them yours self

"Abortion 2." Long and detailed discussion of many of the issues without trolling (abortion 1 was shut down because of that)

"Leave your beliefs out of it" I should point out started by someone religious (although nowhere near as crazy).

Abortion is the murder of an unborn child, end of story. We must to an end to this silent genocide. Every day thousands of potential lives are killed by sluts and whores who in the first place should not have been having sex.

It matters not what religion you are, you will realize that if abortion is not stopped there will be no future. If you are Chritian, Jewish, etc. you should vote for this.

If religion has nothiong to do with it, why bring up Christians and Jews etc?


If you don't belive abortion is wrong, I personally pray that your parents should have aborted your sorry ass. "Curse to they who support death, praise to those who save lives."

*Delegates please support: Anti-Abortion proposal

So an unborn child has a right to live, but people who dont agree with you dont? Doesnt that contradict your statement? Doesnt killing say, a slut (your words, not mine) eliminate the 'potentional life' she could make?

Also, since you voiced that these so called 'sluts' and 'whores', who per your own words, "who in the first place should not have been having sex." as well, who determines who is a slut/whore etc? Personally I dont believe in polyamory, but I know there's some nations out there that do and thus will probably be offended by said statement.

Just something to ponder...

The message says pro-life but the medium/style says my way or the highway. Like this:

http://www.ozyandmillie.org/2002/om20020301.gif

To the estemed political body of Collaboration we applause and bow at their graciousness.

The comic was pretty good. Reminds me of a Phil Moresey one where a kid is selling a newspaper and different aliens are all protesting it ("Oh look! It's square! How vulgar!" "It has no color!! For shame, discrimination against reds and yellows!" etc..).

Now I have to wonder where I put all my Vaughn Bode comics..

Personally, i think it is the womans right to choose. I am not going to defend my view or try and convince anyone else.

I also think that the original posting is a load of idiotic twaddle rather than an inteligent persons belief in the rights of an unborn baby.

It is the goal of The Republic of B33F to create a Christian based society. Being a Christian myself, you obviously know what my view is. The classic phrase 'would you like it if [whatever] happened to you?' could be put into affect here. If you were the baby, you wouldn't want to be killed without a say in it. No-one has the right to decide what they do with a life, not even a mother. From the moment of conceivement, there is a potential for a human being to be formed. Even if you consider it to be 'a clump of cells' it will eventually become a human being.

I wonder if any of you know how an abortion occurs? I won't go into great detail about it, but as far as i know, unless the method has changed, the baby is literally vacuumed out. It will come out in pieces, like an arm, then a leg, the torso then the head etc.

If a woman wants an abortion, you can't throw her in jail, and this issue is fantastically difficult to make illegal. Before it was made legal sometime in the 1970's i believe, there were illegal methods of abortion, many of which led to death of the mother and of course the baby. I believe that no-one has the right to kill a human being, even what some of you consider 'a clump of cells' that will eventually become a human being. Abortion is murder.

I cannot at this point reach a decision on what to do on enforcing a law, it wont be me who makes the final decision. I can only give my opinion.

We at Outer Uiguria see this kind of anti-abortion resolutions as a threat to our sovereignty and an attempt of cultural and religious imperialism.

If a women wants an abortion, she will get one: legal or not, with most of the time infortunates result due to the lack of expertise of the one doing it.

Can you accept the responsability of killing 2 ppl just for an idea? If someone choose to do it, she has her reasons to do it, interfering could be criminal.

Anyway, think of what will happend to the "unwanted kid" ? Being hated, falling down the road of crime, suicide?

What good is in arguying about saving a life that will be ruined anyway? most of these kids ends up in a shelter anyway, and now THAT's criminal!

The nation of Blumploslovakia is Anit-Abortion, but in no way will we support a resolution pertaining to the outlaw of abortion. This is not an international issue, and therefore should not be dealt with by the UN. Abortion laws should be determined by each nation, and not by the international community.

The delegation of the Nation of Aquincum would support a law banning murder, which abortion is. However, the wording in this proposal is revolting and entirely inappropriate. You only give our cause a very bad name. Who will you convince like this? You are arrogant and way too self-righteous. Besides, how many abortion supporters are now allies of the pro-life cause? The founder of NARAL! Roe, of Roe v. Wade! Pray instead that your opponents eyes are opened, and yours too, that you may not be smitten with the same fate that you wish upon all those who happen to be wrong on one issue!

B33F, in response to your comment, by those same rules everytime one was to masterbate he should be arrested because he destroyed billions of "chances at life". abortion is legal, if you dont like it, dont do it, but dont push your beliefs on the rest of the world.

B33F, in response to your comment, by those same rules everytime one was to masterbate he should be arrested because he destroyed billions of "chances at life". abortion is legal, if you dont like it, dont do it, but dont push your beliefs on the rest of the world.

i see what you mean, although i did state it was my own opinion and i think you should have the freedom of speech to a certain level. as for masturbation, there is no chance of a baby with no concievement. i believe that as soon as a woman concieves, that abortion is wrong. just my opinion

It matters not what religion you are, you will realize that if abortion is not stopped there will be no future. If you are Chritian, Jewish, etc. you should vote for this.

If you don't belive abortion is wrong, I personally pray that your parents should have aborted your sorry ass.
*Delegates please support: Anti-Abortion proposal

BTW: polls screwd up


Ok, passage 1....


So youre saying that our entire future depends on so called "sluts" having children they don't want anyway?

Passage 2...
Can you say "hypocrit?"

To be anti-abortion is to be anti-female. A male has the right to do whatever he wants with his body. A female must have those very same rights! What is the purpose in screaming about fetus murder when in most cases where abortion is sought the conception was the result of either drugs or alcohol or rape or extreme poverty and ignorance?

In all of those cases the child would either be deformed or lead a miserable existence. Why force people to ruin lives for one moment of folly? It continues an endless cycle of poverty and infringes on a woman's right to choose.

Pro-choice! Anything else is fascist.

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

While I personally don't like abortion very much, you shouldn't force your views on others until we can prove that a fœtus is actually sentient as the pro-life people say.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mliêstôlkakûmek(Love all as you love yourself)
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
They say, "You say 'heavy deposit
of fat on the thighs and butt' as
though it were a bad thing."

a haggared man walks in surrounded by a security detachment.

Umm..when more pertinant issues to debate hits the floor, could someone TG me please? See, I had to become a dictatorship for a short time to help stop a small war within my borders started by non-Necrotasian citizens who felt their ideals should be imposed on my society, not to mention the bastards tried to kill my daughter. :evil: So instead of staying here at the UN HQ in NYC, I'll be back at Necrotasia trying to gather my forces and stop these cowardly terrorists.


-Chairman J.Manning
Republic of Necrotasia

"The Derminian government believes that once the conception between an egg and a sperm occurs, the sole rights of the woman is dissolved. While the Representative of Malava states that to be "anti-abortion is to be anti-female," the Commonwealth of Derminia would like to remind them that this stance dissolves the rights of the father and the child.

Three rights exist once a successful copulation occurs; the right of the mother, father and unborn child. As a member of the United Nations, we should propose that we protect unborn children from the mistakes of their parents by enacting laws that prevent the loss of rights from any of those three invovled."

Minister Vitay
Ministry of Cultural Affairs

The Great Nation of Putergeeks supports a woman's right to choose.

We have made our position on this matter known in the past.

You say you support the woman's choice, but what about the child? Does not the child too have a voice.

Murderers, thats what you are.

Abortion not only kills the potential child, it has a prone to harm the mother. Don't believe me, look up the side effects of abortion, they are harmful not only to the child but, to the mother.

Effects have varied to: blindness, paralysis, brain-death, cancer, and others

You say you support the woman's choice, but what about the child? Does not the child too have a voice.

Murderers, thats what you are.

Hahahahahahahahaha!
Oh your serious :shock:

So you are saying that killing a clump of cells is illegal. Okay never touch anything ever again, you might just scrape off some cells. Never let your body fight off disease as germs are almost the same things as cells. Never let guys masturbate as it kills millions of chances at life. Never let people have an operation to make sure they cannot impregnate or become pregnate. Cancel IVF as in the process of finding a viable embryo they kill a few eggs and sperm.

Or you could not, and not be a moron.

Abortion not only kills the potential child, it has a prone to harm the mother. Don't believe me, look up the side effects of abortion, they are harmful not only to the child but, to the mother.

Effects have varied to: blindness, paralysis, brain-death, cancer, and others

I have had, a brief, search on the side effects and have found that there could be a increased risk of breast cancer, though some believe there is still no conclusive evidence.

Everything I have found is biased, depending on the pro or anti stance.

I haven't found anything about the rest of the side effects you have listed. Could someone post an url, as i am a fairly lazy person, where the side effects mentioned are listed.

There are undoubtedly some risks with abortion but they don't seem much different to having a baby. I had complecations with both my sons births.

I just want to thank you for acknowledging that I am not crazy.


My pleasure. All in the sprit of the tread you started.

For the record i do not think you are crazy at all but above i did say "not AS crazy" implying you are a little. Sorry about that.

i think UnitedNationsSpaceComm has similar views to me. what i think he means is that as soon as a woman concieves, theres a pontential for a human to be made. i believe that as soon as a woman concieves, there is a human being. to kill that potential is the same as murder. the baby deserves a say but it can't speak. so just let it live!

Here is the definition of murder: unlawful premeditated killing of a human being v 1: kill intentionally and with premeditation;
Source: WordNet ® 1.6, © 1997 Princeton University

So murder is killing a human being, according to this. That means that you consider that clump of unsentient cells to be a human, this makes all my afformentioned points valid. Also don't give me that "It could potentialy be a human" crap. This would mean every egg and sperm that died would carry the same weight as a embryo because they could end up a human. And if they have the same weight as an embryo then they have the same weight as a human, which you must agree is just stupid.

Keep your beliefs out of it? How on earth do you run your country if not by your belief system?

My nation does not care what religion or faith your nation falls under, or what moral beliefs you hold. You have no right to tell my people what they can and cannot do to their own bodies, I personally do not like abortion and doubt under any circumstance I would condone it but it is not mine or YOUR place to say what anyone else can believe is or isn' right.

No one wants to tell your people what to do with their bodies ... abortion is doing something to someone else's body, namely the child's. You do not have a natural law right to commit acts on someone else's body.

Likewise, if your nation decides to become pedophiles you may insist no one can tell your people what to do either. But if the UN votes against your right to be a pedophile, you either leave the UN or enact the legislation.

Yes, there actually is right or wrong ... no matter how many poorly educated Foucault readers insist there isn't.

slightly off topic but someone commented earlier that we had forgot the child and fathers rights, so for the father i would like to add that i think any father who does not want a woman to concieve his child should have the right to say so, and if he is willing to pay for the abortion and the woman refuses he should be free from having to pay child support.

possibly confusing so let me paraphrase
1 guy gets girl pregnant
2 guy doesnt want baby, girl does
3 guy forks over the cash for an abortion
4 responsibility is now on the girl, if she has the abortion sad but ok, if not then the financial responsibility lies on her now, however this action would also forfeit ANY right to see or have custody of said child by father unless permission granted by mother since legally it is now solely HER child.
(cash nessesary may be raised above cost of abortion ie:mental hardship, various doctor bills ect ect.)

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

And the unripe potato, from the moment of its budding, is not just "that clump of cells". It is a unique potato being, not quite a "person" yet, as some would argue, but it is still an individual with rights that it cannot voice, or cry out in pain when they are violated. Those of you who argue that it doesn't have rights, I have not seen one argument for why that cannot also apply to a potato who is already ripe but has a handicap of some sort - rotten potatoes, moldy potatoes, sprouted potatoes, peeled potatoes, are they not potatoes? What is the difference between them and an unripe potato? The simple, but incredibly biased, answer would be that they have been ripened. Most more complex, less insulting to yourself , answers all boil down to being freshist (discriminating based on freshness or level of decomposition).

Sigh, how many times do we have to hear all this stuff?

If Abortion is murder then, masturbation is genocide.
Did you know that everytime a guy cums he cums 200 million sperm? 200 million. That's each load...one load. That means the I have wiped entire nations of my chest with a grey gym sock. Entire civilizations have flaked and crusted in the hair around my naval. Why haven't the religious right attacked this? It seems to me that whenever any church steps out to say something it's always to condemn it, if they want to attract more supporters they need not be so restrictive and negative.

As far as I'm concerned abortion is fine by me. I see the pro-life movemnt as restricting the rights of women, in a way outlawing abortion is the first step to dismantling what women have worked for since the beginnings of the feminist movement.

While both sides have their valid arguments I fail to see how labelling women who have abortions as sluts or whores is a) going to win you support and b) is a very immature and not very well thought out statement.

As for the post that mentioned abortion being essentially a vacuum sucking out bodyparts, this is totally not true for the vast majority of abortions. Most abortion take place in the first or early second trimester meaning that the "baby" (if you can call it that) is still nothing more than a grouping of cells that have not yet taken a human form.

What this thread needs is less swearing and insults and labelling and more constructive arguments that actually present a case, whether it be for abortion or against it.

Thank you for your time.

I wonder if any of you know how an abortion occurs? I won't go into great detail about it, but as far as i know, unless the method has changed, the baby is literally vacuumed out. It will come out in pieces, like an arm, then a leg, the torso then the head etc.

I'm not sure what you are referring to here, but as most abortions are carried out within the first 3 months of pregnancy, the fetus hasn't actually developed fully formed arms, legs, head etc, they are merely buds emerging from a clump of cells. There isn't even a brain to speak of. Having been a nurse, I can tell you that the marjority of abortions don't result in an indentifiable 'baby,' it is only those late abortions that can be disturbing, but not as bad as bringing a severly deformed child into the world to be kept alive for a number of weeks by artifical means and then allowed to die by having their food supply cut off. Wake up and smell the desperation people. The answer isn't to make abortion a shooting offence, we need to consider educating our children from an early age on how to prevent accidental pregnancy in the first place. I'll guess that the Christians among you would also feel that teaching children about sex at an early age would be wrong. Damned if you do, damned if you don't!!

[/quote]Are retarded people, old people, mutes, infants, are they not human? What is the difference between them and an unborn child? The simple, but incredibly biased, answer would be that they have been born. [/quote]

Yes, that is an amazingly simple answer! The difference would actually be that they are fully formed and thinking beings, not clumps of cells. The arguments remain the same, you say that not all cells have the potential to create a human life. Fair enough. But all sperm cells do have the potential for human life, so how can you just say it's ok for them to die? If we are discussing potential, then we need to consider what happens to every child after they are born. Do they not all have the potential to cure cancer, bring peace to the world, create beautiful art? By not doing everything we can to realise that potential are we not in some way denying them the life they could have had? Where do we draw the line? If a child isn't sent to the best school, should we kill their parents for not allowing that child to reach their potential? Where do you draw the line on interfering in other peoples lives?

Are retarded people, old people, mutes, infants, are they not human? What is the difference between them and an unborn child? The simple, but incredibly biased, answer would be that they have been born. [/quote]

Yes, that is an amazingly simple answer! The difference would actually be that they are fully formed and thinking beings, not clumps of cells. The arguments remain the same, you say that not all cells have the potential to create a human life. Fair enough. But all sperm cells do have the potential for human life, so how can you just say it's ok for them to die? If we are discussing potential, then we need to consider what happens to every child after they are born. Do they not all have the potential to cure cancer, bring peace to the world, create beautiful art? By not doing everything we can to realise that potential are we not in some way denying them the life they could have had? Where do we draw the line? If a child isn't sent to the best school, should we kill their parents for not allowing that child to reach their potential? Where do you draw the line on interfering in other peoples lives?[/quote]

at the moment of conception the child has the unique characteristics of a human. the person has 46 chromosomes and has all the characteristic of a human. and what about down's syndrome people they are missing a chromosome. or what about mentally retarded people they dont have fully developed brains. so if you speak about development then you can kill retards, down's syndrom people and so on.

www.abortionisprolife.com

A website by sensible conservatives

at the moment of conception the child has the unique characteristics of a human. the person has 46 chromosomes and has all the characteristic of a human. and what about down's syndrome people they are missing a chromosome. or what about mentally retarded people they dont have fully developed brains. so if you speak about development then you can kill retards, down's syndrom people and so on.

Leukemia cells have 46 chromosomes too. Surely you aren't arguing for the abolition of chemotherapy? I support the right of the mother to remove whatever objects she wants from her body. Her right to have sex, her right to get an organ transplant, her right to get surgery for cancer is the same right as her right to remove a fetus from her womb.

Yet another UN Resolution that infringes upon a nation's sovreignty.

If Abortion is murder then, masturbation is genocide.

No. Any one sperm has a very low probability of combining with an egg, masturbation aside. Besides, the sperm have not started the process which will lead them to life. That begins when it combines with the egg. After that, if the natural course of things goes by, it has a good chance of becoming a human life.

Here is a great site on pro-abortion. Please read it and think before you make you decision. http://www.abortionisprolife.com/

I still have had no one explain to me how abortion is justified in the third trimester except for when the mother's health was in danger. Depending on if you listen to radical pro-choice or radical pro-life, premature babies born after the beginning of the seventh month after conception have a 70-95% chance of living.

And before I am accused of being radically pro-choice, I do think that abortion should be allowed if the woman's health is at risk, but that is the only circumstance outside of rape where I can see abortion being justified.

Life is an STD with a 100% mortality rate.

It will never cease to amaze me that both sides of the abortion argument are wrong when taken to either extreme. Compromise is necessary on this subject, but neither side will ever admit it. When the mother's health is at risk, or a rape has been committed, abortion should be allowed. If a man and woman choose to have sex and the woman gets pregnant, the baby should have to be carried full-term and delivered if no risk is present to the mother's life. Why is this so hard to agree upon? Allowing abortion under any circumstances basically says that we don't have to take responsibility for our own actions (e.g. having sex). Banning abortion entirely is stupid also because it says that the baby's health is always more important than the mother's. This is my view on the subject. If you have any questions for me, I will be more than happy to answer them.

If you care so much about the unborn child, take it out of the mother's body and take care of it yourself.

I think it's pretty clear the difference between an embryo, a fetus and a living (albeit unborn) child. Why do you think there is such a thing as trimesters?

You don't own anyone else's body. The church, Christian or otherwise, does not own anybody's body. And, as downright blasphemous as many will consider this: Not even your God owns the body of any woman. It's obvious, isn't it?

Conception is a by-product of sex. When a man and a woman have sex, they ought to know what they're getting into, and they ought to know what could happen, even with birth control. Both the man and the woman; he's as responisble for the child as she is, and he should pitch in for the costs incurred during the pregnancy. Maybe even more so than the woman. But there's no point in killing the mother; the child will probably die anyway. If this comes up, then it becomes an emergency, and an abortion is justified. The way I see it, the only gray area is rape.

And don't talk about the overpopulation problem. If people start to see that sex=children, it might actually reduce population. Or "it's her body." "It's my hotel." "It's my sauna." That means nothing.

And yes, I am still a virgin. But I don't really care.

The argument that a zygote is a human being because it possesses the genetic potential to become what we normally consider to be a human being is a semantic maneuver to cover for the fact the only argument against abortion is religious.

When we say that we value human life, we are not - unless we have a purely religious concept of the world - valuing a magical, ineffable quality that inheres in entities. Rather, we are attaching our values to a certain description of entity.
When we say that we value "human life", we are referring to entities that meet our description of the human life we value. It's the characteristics that we value, not the name "human being". If we wanted to define "human life" as "any living organism with a complete set of homo sapiens genes", then we would be saying "we value the life of any organism that has such a set of genes".

The question then arises as to why we should value the existence of such an organism for no other merits. Plainly, most of us do not, at least as long as there are enough survivors to perpetuate the human race (which is scarcely at issue). Unless we are subject to a religious imperative, we value human life for a reason.

What we are really saying (unless we are speaking from purely religious convictions), when we say that we value human life, is that we value entities which are recognizable as persons - entities that think, desire, communicate, are self-aware, etc.

This is why most of us don't object to the euthanasia of a brain-dead "person" - we don't really consider them a person at all, and, in relation to the reasons for which we value human life, they are not human life. On the other hand, most of us, if we discovered a being which thought, desired, spoke, was self-ware, etc., but did not have human genes, would readily extend our valuation of "human life" to that entity, even though it was clearly not human, because it possessed the characteristics for which we do value human life.

A fetus does not possess these characteristics in any substantial degree, and an embryo certainly does not possess them at all. Therefore, we do not value them as "human life", even if we might concede in other contexts - where we are dealing with different kinds of evaluations - that they are human and living.

The question here is not "When does life begin?", or even "What is human life?", but "Why do we value human life, and when are the attributes that make us value it acquired?"

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A mute person can certainly communicate, and we know that he or she possesses a thinking mind. Mentally retarded people are surely self aware, except in the most severe cases of idiocy, and most people (who do not have a neurotic fixation about genetic structure) do not regard "vegetables" as persons.

A fetus not only cannot talk, it does not have the cerebral structures necessary for communication, or for much of anything else. There is no mind there to communicate with. The difference between a fetus and some other lump of tissue is that the fetus is a precursor of a person - but it is not a person.

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So my arm is a person? My stomach? My left kidney? All of these are merely lumps of tissue, so according to you they are all people.
Uh.... don't like now, your royal Highney, but you seem to have switched sides in this debate....

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