NationStates Jolt Archive

I am certain that the benevolent Father of NS had no mean intention. This must clearly be an oversight on his part. Nevertheless, a wrong must be redressed. The Vatican Flag flies along with all other flags of sovereign states in the United Nations:

I urge all UN Regional Delegates to consider the following Proposal:

Vatican Flag Act

WHEREAS the Vatican is a non-voting permanent member state of the United Nations; and,

WHEREAS the Vatican represents the largest family of development and charitable organizations in the world; and,

WHEREAS the Vatican represents about 21% of the entire human family; and,

WHEREAS the Vatican City-State is one of the foremost advocates of human rights, political and religious freedom among the members of the United Nations; and,

WHEREAS the Vatican is recognized as a sovereign state by all members of the United Nations:

THEREFORE: The Vatican flag should be an option among all the other national flags in NS.

As much as I agree with you here, being religious myself, some other nations may see the word Vatican and dismiss your ideas completely. Nevertheless, it's a good idea even though it has the potential to spark religious debate.

Although our nation is notorious for its lack of religious belief we feel your point is well made and agree whole-heartedly. Freedom of Belief is as important as Speech or Movement and should be recognised accordingly.

Two wrongs don't make a right. Keep the Vatican out. The Vatican has no place in the UN. It does represent 21% of the "entire human family." Most catholics disagree with the Vatican on birth control. And I'm sure there's much disagreement on other issues. Also, since the Vatican is a dictatorship, run by the pope, it doesn't really "represent" any one. I would agree that they represent tyrany though.

This isn't even about freedom of belief - the Holy See is a sovereign state recognised by almost every country on Earth. For its flag to be omitted when even flags of non-sovereign nations (for want of a better term - I explain what I mean in the example below) make it into the list just doesn't make sense.

For example, Wales, Scotland, England, and the various isles in Great Britain all get their flags in the list as well as the Union Jack for the whole of the UK - in effect each of these countries gets covered twice, and other countries, like the Vatican City, get nothing!

it's a state, they have a government, they should be in. simple as that. this is coming from someone who's agressively secular in government too. if you're not going to have the vatican's flag, you may as well not have libya's for being bloody boring. :)

Two wrongs don't make a right. Keep the Vatican out. The Vatican has no place in the UN. It does represent 21% of the "entire human family." Most catholics disagree with the Vatican on birth control. And I'm sure there's much disagreement on other issues. Also, since the Vatican is a dictatorship, run by the pope, it doesn't really "represent" any one. I would agree that they represent tyrany though.

That line of reasoning doesn't hold any water at all, lots of dictatorships are recognised as sovereign states by the UN, and the Pope is elected.

The fact is that it is a sovereign state, and everybody recognises it as such. Why shouldn't its flag be up there with other sovereign states?

Two wrongs don't make a right. Keep the Vatican out. The Vatican has no place in the UN. It does represent 21% of the "entire human family." Most catholics disagree with the Vatican on birth control. And I'm sure there's much disagreement on other issues. Also, since the Vatican is a dictatorship, run by the pope, it doesn't really "represent" any one. I would agree that they represent tyrany though.

That line of reasoning doesn't hold any water at all, lots of dictatorships are recognised as sovereign states by the UN, and the Pope is elected.

The fact is that it is a sovereign state, and everybody recognises it as such. Why shouldn't its flag be up there with other sovereign states?

if they dont contribute no flag - if the pope wants to join the site and vote on issues then fine -but being a religous leader is not a reason to place their flag here(damn pushy christians.....)and being elected by the other government officials (or church officials)is NOT elected(in real elections the people vote).

if they dont contribute no flag - if the pope wants to join the site and vote on issues then fine -but being a religous leader is not a reason to place their flag here(damn pushy christians.....)and being elected by the other government officials (or church officials)is NOT elected(in real elections the people vote).
Nobody is suggesting giving religious leaders flags you idiot. They're suggesting putting the flag for the WORLD'S SMALLEST SOVEREIGN NATION (the Vatican City State) in the list of selectable flags on the site. Any argument for or against having the Vatican's flag being selectable shouldn't be based on one's personal feelings about Roman Catholicism or about religion in general!

It is a nation which happens to be run by the Church. The fact that it is run by the Church is irrelevant to the discussion unless you contend that this somehow disbars it from getting its flag on the list with all the other national flags for all the other nations in the world.

That line of reasoning doesn't hold any water at all, lots of dictatorships are recognised as sovereign states by the UN, and the Pope is elected.

He's not elected by the people. He's not even elected by the people's representatives. He's elected by people appointed by the previous pope. The people have no say in his election. He's not elected in any democratic sense of the term.

The fact is that it is a sovereign state, and everybody recognises it as such. Why shouldn't its flag be up there with other sovereign states?

Not everyone recogonizes it as a soverign state. I don't.

if they dont contribute no flag - if the pope wants to join the site and vote on issues then fine -but being a religous leader is not a reason to place their flag here(damn pushy christians.....)and being elected by the other government officials (or church officials)is NOT elected(in real elections the people vote).

I think you missed the point entirely. The sovereign state known as the Vatican City and the approximately 1 billion Catholics in the world are two separate entities. The bishops who vote for the new pope are the equivalent of a representative from their district (in this case, a diocese). The pope is not and does not claim to be any kind of tyrannous monarch. The fact of the matter is that the Vatican City (not the pope) is its own state, with it's own flag, recognized by the *real world* UN. By making the VC flag available on the site, we would not be converting all NSUN nations to Catholicism, but simply recognizing a sovereign state that happens to contain the leader of one f the major world religions.
Would you prefer also, that we eliminate Israel because it is inhabitaed primarily by people of the Jewish faith?
Remember, tolerance is key.

That line of reasoning doesn't hold any water at all, lots of dictatorships are recognised as sovereign states by the UN, and the Pope is elected.

He's not elected by the people. He's not even elected by the people's representatives. He's elected by people appointed by the previous pope. The people have no say in his election. He's not elected in any democratic sense of the term.

"The people" of the Vatican City State are almost entirely clergy people. There are either about 900 or 1700 people in the Vatican City (I'm sure it is one of those, I've forgotten which), and the vast majority of them are either nuns, brothers, priests, and so on, or employees of the various branches of the Roman Curia. It isn't like there is some huge secular population here that is being lorded over by a heartless dictator.

But yes, I do know that the Pope's election isn't one in the style of a representative democracy. But is that relevant? The Vatican City State is still a sovereign nation.

The fact is that it is a sovereign state, and everybody recognises it as such. Why shouldn't its flag be up there with other sovereign states?

Not everyone recogonizes it as a soverign state. I don't.

It isn't up to individuals to recognise the existence of a sovereign state, it is up to governments. If you mean IC that's one thing, but if you're OOC like I am, then to be blunt, get off your high horse. Your national government (whatever it is) recognises the Holy See as a sovereign state - your individual recognition is irrelevant.

But as I understand, all this proposal about is adding the Vatican's flag to the list of flags which a new player can select for their nation. All sorts of dictatorships, theocracies, and other totalitarian states have their flags selectable. So why not the Vatican? Why not let new players have that option?

"The people" of the Vatican City State are almost entirely clergy people. There are either about 900 or 1700 people in the Vatican City (I'm sure it is one of those, I've forgotten which), and the vast majority of them are either nuns, brothers, priests, and so on, or employees of the various branches of the Roman Curia. It isn't like there is some huge secular population here that is being lorded over by a heartless dictator.

But yes, I do know that the Pope's election isn't one in the style of a representative democracy. But is that relevant? The Vatican City State is still a sovereign nation.


WHEREAS the Vatican represents about 21% of the entire human family; and,
It's relevant to the extent that the above quote is used to justify the argument. Beyond that, no, it's not relevant.

WHEREAS the Vatican represents about 21% of the entire human family; and,
It's relevant to the extent that the above quote is used to justify the argument. Beyond that, no, it's not relevant.

But that quote is pretty accurate. The Holy See represents the religion of 1 billion people. It is also a sovereign nation. The quote is probably irrelevant to the discussion of recognising its flag, but it isn't inaccurate.

The Vatican City State's government is not a representative one. However, the Holy See does represent the religious beliefs of a huge proportion of the human race. The Holy See has two roles, as the government of the Vatican City State, in which capacity it isn't representative, and as the head of the Catholic faith, of which it most certainly is representative (since it defines the Catholic faith).

UND was just trying to get the point across that the Vatican is a pretty significant country despite its tiny size, at least that's how I read it.

WHEREAS the Vatican represents about 21% of the entire human family; and,
It's relevant to the extent that the above quote is used to justify the argument. Beyond that, no, it's not relevant.

But that quote is pretty accurate. The Holy See represents the religion of 1 billion people. It is also a sovereign nation. The quote is probably irrelevant to the discussion of recognising its flag, but it isn't inaccurate.[

The Vatican City State's government is not a representative one. However, the Holy See does represent the religious beliefs of a huge proportion of the human race. The Holy See has two roles, as the government of the Vatican City State, in which capacity it isn't representative, and as the head of the Catholic faith, of which it most certainly is representative (since it defines the Catholic faith).

UND was just trying to get the point across that the Vatican is a pretty significant country despite its tiny size, at least that's how I read it.

If you want to say that the pope of the catholic church defines the catholic faith, then yes, he does then represent the catholic faith. But, it is still inacurate to say that he represents 20% of the worlds population. He would still only represent the fraction of that 20% that follow catholic teachings to the letter. Now, if he was elected to head the catholic church, then I would agree that he then represents those who call themselves catholics, even though they don't agree with all of his actions/rulings/proclamations, etc.

Back to the main question:

Will we then add the flags of the rest of the 400 or so soverign nations throughout the world? I don't think we would, and most of them have much larger populations.

You can always just go and get a flag from somewhere and make it your custom flag.

i hope one of the catholic nations spots this and gives you a thorough invading you repressor of their manifest destiny you ;)

WHEREAS the Vatican represents about 21% of the entire human family; and,
It's relevant to the extent that the above quote is used to justify the argument. Beyond that, no, it's not relevant.

But that quote is pretty accurate. The Holy See represents the religion of 1 billion people. It is
.....
of which it most certainly is representative (since it defines the Catholic faith).

UND was just trying to get the point across that the Vatican is a pretty significant country despite its tiny size, at least that's how I read it.

There are not a billion Catholics, which is what
would be neccessary to for the Vatican to represent a billion people, or 21% of the world's population.

Even if there were a billion Catholics, an awful lot of catholics do not feel that the pope represents them. Make that 999,999,999 since I am no longer a Catholic.

If anything, the papacy is in this day and age an office which could be used for good or evil according to the intentions of the human who wears the papal mitre.

If the Papal State's flag is represented for these reasons (rather than just including it as another flag) then by all means, the flag of the Sunni Caliphate should also be included.

After all, Islam is the religion of 1.3 billion people. While there is no Kaliphate today, there are a lot of people running around saying that there should be.

Although the Kaliphate is a form of dictatorship, the absence of a state prevents anyone from being oppressed, and keeps
corruption to a minimum.

Also, the flag of the Kaliphate just looks cool.
Black flag, white letters in dotless script.

Back to the main question:

Will we then add the flags of the rest of the 400 or so soverign nations throughout the world? I don't think we would, and most of them have much larger populations.

You can always just go and get a flag from somewhere and make it your custom flag.

In fact, Catholic Europe has already done this. But we've got some pretty insignificant nations with flags in the list, which aren't even recognised as sovereign states. It isn't difficult to upload a flag of one's own choosing, but if there is a resolution which will put the Vatican's flag (or any other sovreign nation's flag) in the list of default flags, I will vote for it. It is nice to have a wide range of choices even before having to upload a custom flag, IMO.

Back to the main question:

Will we then add the flags of the rest of the 400 or so soverign nations throughout the world? I don't think we would, and most of them have much larger populations.

You can always just go and get a flag from somewhere and make it your custom flag.

In fact, Catholic Europe has already done this. But we've got some pretty insignificant nations with flags in the list, which aren't even recognised as sovereign states. It isn't difficult to upload a flag of one's own choosing, but if there is a resolution which will put the Vatican's flag (or any other sovreign nation's flag) in the list of default flags, I will vote for it. It is nice to have a wide range of choices even before having to upload a custom flag, IMO.

I agree. But, then they would also have to lift the ban on the Nazi flag too. That catholic church has killed more people -- all be it over a longer stretch of time -- than the Nazi's have.

This whole discussion is pointless. This resolution tries to change the game, and if you read the FAQ's, you will see that you cannot change the game through the UN. If you want a flag added, go through the proper channels. This will be deleted by the MODS before it can reach a general vote.


This has been an OOC post

A small disclaimer for OOC posts is a registered trademark of Goobergunchia

The issue here is not whether the Catholic Church is right or wrong or whatever. The simple question is...is it a sovereign nation?

Answer=yes. Thus, its flag probably should be a choice. However, the customize option pretty much ensures that if you really want to have the vatican flag as your symbol, you can do so.

Also, as much as it pains me, this IS a valid thread on this forum since it deals with a proposed UN resolution.

However, the proposal in itself is invalid as it forces game changes to be made. If you posted this resolution, it should be deleted.