NationStates Jolt Archive

Clone humans having the same equal rights as those of us born to natural parents? I for one am appalled by this ridicules “equality” of these creatures. I am for the cloning of humans, but granting them equal rights and citizenship? I must say, that Nodrovia is ardently against this resolution. Not only does it allow clones the same rights, it bring them equal to the original human. Another things, cloning the human in the Scientific world is relatively young letting these things loose may cause unknown pandemonium. The clones should be the in the sole ownership of the government. They should not be allowed to walk the streets with out proper identification papers that include the fallowing: Name, person cloned by, picture ID, DNA code, date of cloning, government ownership pin number. If this resolution is passed allowing clones equal rights not only does that disgrace human dignity but also is just rather appalling.

Clones are human beings, so the universal bill of rights is valid for them. If it would be valid only for persons with unique DNA, twins would also not be meant by it.

Clones are born the SAME WAY normals humans are. The only difference is that they have the same DNA is someone else. Clone factories like the ones in Star Wars II are impossible. Please realize this.

What'd be cool for my nation if I could ban Star Wars episodes I, II and III the same way South Korea bans North Korean films.

Anyway, of course clones should have equal rights. If they're fully human, they should have human rights. A clone is not an android, as it is made from flesh and blood. Twins are made from the same DNA (I think....), and they have equal rights to everyone else, so why not clones? I vote FOR this resolution.

I agree with this, clones should not have equal rights because they have no soul whatsoever, right? God didnt make them, man did, and last time i checked man is not God. Clones cant measure up truly to human beings so why consider them the same as them.

Without referring to things that have no scientific base, WHY are clones inferior to people? They are born just like normal people are. They are basically an identical twin. If you can use the scientific method to set up an experiment to support the statement "we have souls but clones don't," then I'll take your argument seriously.

What'd be cool for my nation if I could ban Star Wars episodes I, II and III the same way South Korea bans North Korean films.

Anyway, of course clones should have equal rights. If they're fully human, they should have human rights. A clone is not an android, as it is made from flesh and blood. Twins are made from the same DNA (I think....), and they have equal rights to everyone else, so why not clones? I vote FOR this resolution.

There's two main kinds of twins: Fraternal and Identical. Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. These twins ARE NOT genetically identical. An identical twin is what you get when a fertilized egg is somehow cut in two during the initial stages of pregnancy. In this case, the same zygote is split into two and each cluster develops into a separate baby. These twins came from the same parent cell. Thus, they ARE genetically identical.

What makes the soul of a person? I can not answer this question, do you?
Clones are no artificial man-made creatures but they are born the same way normal people are born. Why should one heap of cells develop a soul while others should not?

Whether or not God makes man (and I'm not sure about that), new human beings are always born from the actions of other humans. Whether through copulation, in vitro fertilization, or cloning, the result is a full person invested with all the capacities of a human being. Thus, clones should have all the rights of any other human being. That clones are somehow subhuman is as baseless an argument as racism or sexism, if not more so.

I sense something inherently wrong about this....I am not God, nor would I ever pretend to be.


I have yet to see a valid reason for cloning anything, let alone humans.

I sense something inherently wrong about this....I am not God, nor would I ever pretend to be.


I have yet to see a valid reason for cloning anything, let alone humans.

Let's say there's a gay couple that wants to have kids and no one's willing to let them adopt.

I sense something inherently wrong about this....I am not God, nor would I ever pretend to be.

I have yet to see a valid reason for cloning anything, let alone humans.
C'mon, you don't think the world could do with another dozen William Shatners or so?

Rhetorically yours,
The Rogue Nation of Futplex

Fine-here's the hard-core answer (not necessarily my opinion):

They chose to live a sexual life that did not include the opportunity for reproducing....GET USED TO IT and LIVE WITH IT!!!

I think we have had enough 'Shatner' s----one broke the mold, so to speak- :)

I wish we had a majority of educated people in the UN.

*sigh*

It all comes down to a nature v. nurture debate, which is commonly tested with identical twins. One side argues that how people develop is most strongly influenced by their genome. The other side argues that the environment they live in is more important in development.

Clones have the same DNA as another individual (or perhaps two, or more, if its twin/triplet/etc DNA, but I digress). This DOES NOT mean that they are exactly the same as anyone else. Have you ever wondered how you might have turned out if you had made a different choice in life?

The fact that a clone shares DNA does not make it any easier or less easy to make it a "copy" of another person, in terms of personality, tastes, ideology, etc. The difficulty in producing an exact copy of a person with a clone could equally be compared to using someone with completely different DNA from the individual intending to be copied.

Thus, we arrive to the issue of clone rights. Two points:

1) If you can't tell them apart from a normal person, they're not any different
2) If you can't tell them apart, how do you plan to keep them from impersonating a "natural born" in order to enjoy those rights?

It is both unethical and folly to try and keep clones from the rights described in the Universal Bill of Rights.

Captain-General Grim
Federation of Corinto

What'd be cool for my nation if I could ban Star Wars episodes I, II and III the same way South Korea bans North Korean films.

Anyway, of course clones should have equal rights. If they're fully human, they should have human rights. A clone is not an android, as it is made from flesh and blood. Twins are made from the same DNA (I think....), and they have equal rights to everyone else, so why not clones? I vote FOR this resolution.

There's two main kinds of twins: Fraternal and Identical. Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. These twins ARE NOT genetically identical.
:roll:

I know this comment might make be seem like a smart ass but while this is true Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. This means that they share 50% of DNA with each other so they
are not completely disimilar

:wink:

What'd be cool for my nation if I could ban Star Wars episodes I, II and III the same way South Korea bans North Korean films.

Anyway, of course clones should have equal rights. If they're fully human, they should have human rights. A clone is not an android, as it is made from flesh and blood. Twins are made from the same DNA (I think....), and they have equal rights to everyone else, so why not clones? I vote FOR this resolution.

There's two main kinds of twins: Fraternal and Identical. Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. These twins ARE NOT genetically identical.
:roll:

I know this comment might make be seem like a smart ass but while this is true Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. This means that they share 50% of DNA with each other so they
are not completely disimilar

:wink:

What'd be cool for my nation if I could ban Star Wars episodes I, II and III the same way South Korea bans North Korean films.

Anyway, of course clones should have equal rights. If they're fully human, they should have human rights. A clone is not an android, as it is made from flesh and blood. Twins are made from the same DNA (I think....), and they have equal rights to everyone else, so why not clones? I vote FOR this resolution.

There's two main kinds of twins: Fraternal and Identical. Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. These twins ARE NOT genetically identical.
:roll:

I know this comment might make be seem like a smart ass but while this is true Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. This means that they share 50% of DNA with each other so they
are not completely disimilar

:wink:

I know they aren't. But if they aren't 100% the same, then they aren't completely identical now is it?

What'd be cool for my nation if I could ban Star Wars episodes I, II and III the same way South Korea bans North Korean films.

Anyway, of course clones should have equal rights. If they're fully human, they should have human rights. A clone is not an android, as it is made from flesh and blood. Twins are made from the same DNA (I think....), and they have equal rights to everyone else, so why not clones? I vote FOR this resolution.

There's two main kinds of twins: Fraternal and Identical. Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. These twins ARE NOT genetically identical.
:roll:

I know this comment might make be seem like a smart ass but while this is true Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. This means that they share 50% of DNA with each other so they
are not completely disimilar

:wink:

I know they aren't. But if they aren't 100% the same, then they aren't completely identical now is it?

To set the record straight, fraternal twins share no more of their DNA than siblings.

I think cloning entire organisms is an important first step to cloning particular organs. I'm not an expert, but I seem to recall that all of the DNA in our bodies is the same. Some how, our cells get these instructions to be blood cells or heart cells or whatever. Without being able to test stem cells, another controversial medical field of research, and to perfect our cloning skills, how will we perfect cloning hearts or corneas or anything else?

This is just utter madness! This is not a decision that should be made the honourable United Nations. It is a purely moral one and should not have been brought before the UN in the first place.

Equal rights for clones. Only if they are raised as humans.

If upon birth of a clone or before you take action to insure no higher brain function they you can chop em up for parts.

If they have brains, those brains will be just as human as other people and as such they would be humans.

They must be kept in a persistant vegetative state in order to use them as science tools. With much the same rights as a dead person.

I see it actually as an equal protection for those cloned and those who don't want to be cloned. It also allows nations to restrict genetic research on their territory. And by stating that each individual holds the rights on his own genes, there's no way corporations can get a copyright on these (hey, think about having to buy a license before being legally allowed to reproduce).

At first I also thought 'OMG a cloning issue', but the proposal is actually well thought out and sensible. Cloning is out there, and whatever your religious beliefs are, you won't close this box of Pandora again.

A cloned individual grows just like any other human being, it is partly formed based on his genetic layout, but also based on the environement he grows up in. He feels and thinks like any 'normal born' human, he's not a machine or in any other way artificial. So a clone deserves the same rights as a human being.

Another thing: If a clone is grown up and manipulated into a brainwashed zombi, then the ones responsible for that are commiting a 'crime against humanity' and are therefore liable for prosectution. By denying clones human rights, these criminals could not be made responsible for anything their clones did... after all, whatever they do: they are just 'malfunctioning machines' and their 'failures' would probably be covered by lot of small print.

I think the resolution fails to totally grasp the human cloning controversy. This resolution over looks the huge moral dilemma. Yes, I will concede that cloning would help issues of infertility; even invitro-fertilization was met with some controversy. However human cloning isn’t really intended to make people who will be walking around. The resolution seems to fail to realize human cloning is controversial because it is a step toward organ harvesting to the ill and for stem cell research. This is why some (many) nations rally against it. There is a highly medical motive at play, which has a very negative connotation in the minds of many, worldwide.

If you clone someone and destroy their brain in early gestation I fail to see the dilemma in harvesting organs. Absent the brain the clone is nothing more than a bunch of organs. With no more rights than a tomato.

OOC - In this game clones are perfectly established, my country regularly clones people, therefore this debate is a just and sensible one and about time too.
Now, back to character.

The Free People of Drakosovar wish to make clear that we would strongly oppose any resolution to convey the same rights to clones as natural humans. If a resolution such as this passed science in Drakosovar would grind to a halt overnight. Our humanitarian programs to create sharks with frikking laser beams in their frikiking foreheads would have to be suspended as a result and this could mean a natural disaster. (after all we'd have to turn all the experimental specimens free wouldn't we...).
As has been stated clones are created by man using modern technology to manipulate DNA. They have no more soul than a telephone. To conceive of these creations as having equal rights or opinions worth listening is unthinkable. In Drakosvar clones have tried to put forward the issue of having rights forward for some time now. These greviances were listened to carefully by our government and we concluded that the simplest thing to do would be to breed clones without a voice box or language centres in their brains. Now they can happily fulfill their function as society's playthings without bothering us with trivial matters such as their opinions or existential worries about their existence.
We would urge the United Nations to adopt the same forward thinking attitude as the Free Lands of Drakosovar.
Drakos, Chief Geneticist and Head of the Drakosovan Bureau of Extermination

If you clone someone and destroy their brain in early gestation I fail to see the dilemma in harvesting organs. Absent the brain the clone is nothing more than a bunch of organs. With no more rights than a tomato.

But this resolution if passed provides rights equal to those granted to you and I. So if the resolution passes, nations like mine who condemn human cloning will be focred to accept human cloning (not locally, but globally), and nations who accepty human cloning for medical purposes, will have to allow complete development of the clone, in order for it to be a functional member of society. So it seems this resolution under-cuts both our views.

If you clone someone and destroy their brain in early gestation I fail to see the dilemma in harvesting organs. Absent the brain the clone is nothing more than a bunch of organs. With no more rights than a tomato.

This may be debatable, but in any case, it has nothing to do with cloning in particular. If you can do this to an early-gestational cloned embryo, you should be able to do it to any early-gestational embryo. Since the resolution only grants clones the same rights as those posessed by other humans, it doesn't attempt to decide this issue one way or the other.

Sincerely,
Miranda Googleplex
United Nations Ambassador
Community of Gurthark

OOC - In this game clones are perfectly established, my country regularly clones people, therefore this debate is a just and sensible one and about time too.
Now, back to character.

The Free People of Drakosovar wish to make clear that we would strongly oppose any resolution to convey the same rights to clones as natural humans. If a resolution such as this passed science in Drakosovar would grind to a halt overnight. Our humanitarian programs to create sharks with frikking laser beams in their frikiking foreheads would have to be suspended as a result and this could mean a natural disaster. (after all we'd have to turn all the experimental specimens free wouldn't we...).


The question was about cloned humans and their rights, not about sharks. Here is the according part of the GenetiCorp resolution

V. That cloned humans shall be accorded the same rights and as naturally born humans.

If it walks, waddles and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.
Human is as human does; we support equal rights.

This is just utter madness! This is not a decision that should be made the honourable United Nations. It is a purely moral one and should not have been brought before the UN in the first place.

I couldn't agree more...except one things. Cloaning is a extremely powerful notion and therefore, dangerous. If in the hands of the person or nation for that matter, we had better look out :shock:

but the bill isn't really affecting those countries that don't support cloning. It gives other countries the choice of whether cloning should be banned or not. Voting against this resolution, in my opinion, is restricting the freedoms of other countries...

actually, now that I think about it...this bill doesn't really say a whole lot at all.

I'd sincerely like to see this debate sans religious nuts... If God didn't want us to clone things, he wouldn't have given us free will now would he?

Now, my opinion is this; I'm all for the harvesting of organs. I don't think that an entire human being must be cloned to reach this end, but if that is the case, the only humane thing to do would be to either destroy the developing clone's brain, or alter it's consciousness so as to give it the relative intellect of a curious monkey. Anything else is demeaning to the human race in general, no matter how one was conceived.

I find preposterous the idea of forcing cloned humans into manual labor and removing their vocal abilities so as to 'not hear' any complaints. This brutal and barbaric, reminiscent of slavery like no other. Anyone with a higher intelligence should be treated with as much respect as any other.

Why shouldnt clones have less rights than the rest of the humans? After all, they don't even have the fault of being clones, they were made that way.

I'd sincerely like to see this debate sans religious nuts... If God didn't want us to clone things, he wouldn't have given us free will now would he?

I completely agree. I feel like people are short changing "God." If s/he exists and is omniscient and omnipotent, then s/he would have seen this coming and allowed it to happen. It's awfully pretentious to think you have any idea what God intends.


Now, my opinion is this; I'm all for the harvesting of organs. I don't think that an entire human being must be cloned to reach this end, but if that is the case, the only humane thing to do would be to either destroy the developing clone's brain, or alter it's consciousness so as to give it the relative intellect of a curious monkey. Anything else is demeaning to the human race in general, no matter how one was conceived.

I find the idea of making a clone and incapacitating its brain for any purpose apalling. For what purpose would it have when we can grow organs in animals? Why create a human life only to stunt it and subjugate it? These are people and deserve to be treated as such.

There's two main kinds of twins: Fraternal and Identical. Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. These twins ARE NOT genetically identical. An identical twin is what you get when a fertilized egg is somehow cut in two during the initial stages of pregnancy. In this case, the same zygote is split into two and each cluster develops into a separate baby. These twins came from the same parent cell. Thus, they ARE genetically identical.


No. Frat twins are created when the egg SPLITS before it is fertilized by 2 different sperm. Two eggs do NOT go through the fallopian tubes at once. Don't speak unless you know what you are talking about.


Clones are born the SAME WAY normals humans are. The only difference is that they have the same DNA is someone else. Clone factories like the ones in Star Wars II are impossible. Please realize this.


Sorry, but no again! Clones can be asexually reproduced as well as sexually. Not like me and you, who were made SEXUALLY.


I agree with this, clones should not have equal rights because they have no soul whatsoever, right? God didnt make them, man did, and last time i checked man is not God. Clones cant measure up truly to human beings so why consider them the same as them.


Funny how you can't prove that God created humans, yet you CAN prove the scintific method. And you can prove that your "soul" is non existant. What you believe to be your "soul" (can be proved) is nothing but your mental preception of brainwaves.


know this comment might make be seem like a smart ass but while this is true Fraternal twins are what you get when TWO sperm fertilize TWO eggs. This means that they share 50% of DNA with each other so they
are not completely disimilar


Once one sperm penetrates the egg, the egg becomes inpenetrable by another sperm. Read my above statement about frat twins.

The Free People of Drakosovar wish to make clear that we would strongly oppose any resolution to convey the same rights to clones as natural humans. If a resolution such as this passed science in Drakosovar would grind to a halt overnight. Our humanitarian programs to create sharks with frikking laser beams in their frikiking foreheads would have to be suspended as a result and this could mean a natural disaster. (after all we'd have to turn all the experimental specimens free wouldn't we...).

It should be obvious from the above quotation why Genetic Modification and Cloning has to be put under some kind of enlightened international supervision. We rest our case.

While you're considering whether clones should have the same rights as non-cloned people, consider this: companies already have just about every right that humans have. Companies can own property, buy stuff, sell stuff, they can even get married (sort of).

Why should a clone, who looks like a human, walks like a human, talks like a human, and has the same DNA as a human, have less rights than a legal construct such as a company?

It should be obvious from the above quotation why Genetic Modification and Cloning has to be put under some kind of enlightened international supervision. We rest our case.

Ah but an enlightened thought or decision is usually found in hindsight of a choice not before. Nothing wrong with making no choice between the present and the time when a choice must be made, for there is plenty of new knowledge that can be discovered between then and the present. Some of mankind’s greatest atrocities were made by the decision of enlightened figures attempting to do what they thought at that time was the morally correct thing to do.