NationStates Jolt Archive

This is just a short suggestion but it would be nice to have a nations GDP shown as opposed to a general idea of the size of their economy.

I believe that that would require the game to actually calculate a nation's GDP.

The region of Texas has a very nice calculator for GDP, among other things:

http://nsdossier.texasregion.net/

Don't ask me where they get the numbers, but it's fun. :)

Don't ask me where they get the numbers, but it's fun.

GDP, if my memory serves me correct... is calculated with,

GDP = Investment x Gov't Expenditures x Consumption + Net Trade

Net Trade = (Imports - Exports)

__________

I don't believe that it would be too hard to calculate a GDP for every nation,
Commerce funding implies that trade is occurring- therefore trade isn't a necessary feature for GDP to be calculated. If NSeconomy and others can do it with what little facts we do know about a nation - theres no telling what these people could do with stats that the "oppressive" (ha) admins hide from us.

Quite, but those programs must be using some formula that gives dollar numbers to nation stats; I don't think any such numbers exist in the code.

I am not entirely sure, but the actual game might not calculate such specific purposes. There is underlying code that is not seem and it does affect the game mechanics, but is behind the scene and would probably be difficult to translate into monetary terms.

So what stats seem to be missing from, say, this (http://nseconomy.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?nation=Bokkiwokki)?

We've seen this suggestion before.

It's my understanding that when people makes these types of *ahem* "suggestions", they aren't open to the idea of a third party statistic generator, they want it in game. It would take significant reprogramming to implement this idea, and a plethora of others that seem to come with increasing regularity. Of course, there are those who are satisfied with the third party option, and there are many of those out there.

It's my understanding that when people makes these types of *ahem* "suggestions", they aren't open to the idea of a third party statistic generator, they want it in game.

Considering the newness of the OP, they could simply not be aware of the third party calculators existence.

Personally I am in support but as Kryozerkia quoted it does require recoding at significant levels.

Personally I am in support but as Kryozerkia quoted it does require recoding at significant levels.


Well I'd trust the guys/gals that are actually in charge then - but I must still question how hard it actually would be to do it,

I mean, you just need to put a figure on consumption from all of the industrys,

For example, If the industry of @@NATION@@ is 100% fishing, then the consumption would be a predeterimned figure like, 5 x @@Population@@ with the tax rate effecting it as well. However if the industries of @@NATION@@ arn't 100% fishing, like let's say 50% with basket weaving (the predeterimned figure being 6, for example) taking the other half,
then the forumla would look like
(((5\2)* @@POPULATION@@)+((6/2)*(@@POPULATION@@)))*(-Tax Rate + 100) = Consumption

But I have no clue how the industry works because I've never seen the code obviously, I'm just guessing that's how the industries are broken down.

It's nice, but I kind of wanted to know what the individual industries were producing, in goods, services, and currency (This forum is really active...I didn't check for a couple of days and I missed a lot.)

individual industries

I'd love to see a break down of the industries in @@NATION@@.
That would be great.

(This forum is really active...I didn't check for a couple of days and I missed a lot.)

It can go pretty fast, technical is one of the slower movers.

I'd love to see a break down of the industries in @@NATION@@.
That would be great.

Aside from the huge coding problems this would entail, this would surely kill off RP wouldn't it?

If RP is freeform then it can develop interesting industries and ideas, leading to the great community we have today, with Errinundera having a great synthetic leather industry for example.

Telling people what industries they have and their relative sizes to any degree of accuracy will either just get ignored by the RP community here, or put them off making the creative RP that they would otherwise have posted, for fear of those people who will insist that such industry doesn't exist.

Aside from the huge coding problems this would entail, this would surely kill off RP wouldn't it?

If RP is freeform then it can develop interesting industries and ideas, leading to the great community we have today, with Errinundera having a great synthetic leather industry for example.

Telling people what industries they have and their relative sizes to any degree of accuracy will either just get ignored by the RP community here, or put them off making the creative RP that they would otherwise have posted, for fear of those people who will insist that such industry doesn't exist.


RPers already ignore most of the game anyway.... :)

Not that I do nation RP, but I could see Somewhereistonia's point. As I understand it (someone correct me if I'm off, here), NS2 has not appealed to RPers because the level of detail it provides seems official and therefore limiting. It's one thing to ignore a fairly linear population growth that leaves your nation single-handedly outnumbering the population of Earth, and another to ignore a detailed statistical summary of your economy. As long as those things are kept off-site, they can be useful for the players who want to use them and remain mere unofficial approximations for those who don't. Thinking of how I approached NS when I started - I wrote down every issue I answered and every TG I received, thinking that these things would need to be worked into any national history I created - I could see how additional official statistics would worry RPers.

RPers already ignore most of the game anyway.... :) I would argue that RPers actually don't ignore most of the game, if you define the game by what is included in the code, rather than all the offsite elaborations the political and military players have added. Ignoring offsite political aspects is a perfectly legitimate way to play, just as the gameplay folks ignore utterly the complex histories, embassies, world wars, etc. that go along with the RP world on Jolt - neither is coded and therefore neither is unavoidable. In the end, it's all about what is recognized in the code and what isn't. You can easily escape from the political/military side of the game, or anything else you don't like, by Founding and sitting in your custom region, picking and choosing whether or not to join the WA, dismissing issues that don't apply to your nation as conceived, etc. Numbers coded in and attached to your nation description are harder to ignore.

While I'm all for change and improvement, I think we need to concentrate on those suggestions that would enhance forum-based communities (whether gameplay, RP, or whatever), which are in large part what makes NS unique. If someone believes adding a certain bell or whistle would damage their community, I think we ought to take those concerns seriously, and focus on finding features (say, a field for your capital city) which would enhance the NS experience without provoking such anxiety.

While I'm all for change and improvement, I think we need to concentrate on those suggestions that would enhance forum-based communities (whether gameplay, RP, or whatever), which are in large part what makes NS unique. If someone believes adding a certain bell or whistle would damage their community, I think we ought to take those concerns seriously, and focus on finding features (say, a field for your capital city) which would enhance the NS experience without provoking such anxiety.


Forum based communties is only one part of NationStates - In fact what makes NS unique from its sequel is Regions.

I think we must avoid being biased, we shouldn't avoid helping national customization in favor of forum based communities. Though I myself partake on the forums most of the time - the majority of NS does not, it is all in-game for them.

So why not help out the ingame players a bit?

I'm not saying we should go all gungho with in-game war calculators and shit like that.

But the biggest help that the admins can give to forum based communities is to figure out how to put URLs in the factbook or some sort of ability to advertize your affiliations on your nation's page (with links).

If you do that, a couple tweaks and improvements to the game will only draw in more potential forumgoers with a stronger attention span - not kill the forum.

_______________

Sorry for being brief - I'm not on a good instrument for typing.

While it's a circular argument to claim, on a forum, that forums are what keep us all coming back to the game, I think it is primarily such communities that set NS1 apart from NS2. NS2 tried to foster regional communities (through the highly customizable Alliance mechanic) without understanding what made them tick, and as a result most of us on the forums are utterly disinterested in NS2.

Forum communities are indeed only part of NS, but I honestly see no reason why the casual player wouldn't have a better time playing NS2. It has all the features an issues-only player could want.

I agree that a few more tweaks and customization would do NationStates some good - the forum players as well as the issues-only players. But I don't think that every tweak and customization would have a positive effect. I'm asking that we stop and consider which ones will enrich our experience and contribute to what makes NS unique - the community - and which might be harmful to that community. That could help us narrow down that big list of changes to a few that we think are of the highest priority.

No worries about being brief... brevity can be a virtue (not that I would know).

Forum communities are indeed only part of NS, but I honestly see no reason why the casual player wouldn't have a better time playing NS2. It has all the features an issues-only player could want.

Communication - People join NS with their friends, atleast I did.

Regions allow for a community of friends to grow - an ugly world system breaks them up and divides friends.

The Unibot Field Equation for OMAC

No communication = No Communities = No game activity.

If RP is freeform then it can develop interesting industries and ideas, leading to the great community we have today, with Errinundera having a great synthetic leather industry for example.

Telling people what industries they have and their relative sizes to any degree of accuracy will either just get ignored by the RP community here, or put them off making the creative RP that they would otherwise have posted, for fear of those people who will insist that such industry doesn't exist.

Such as our Treacle-mining & refining industry, for example...

But the biggest help that the admins can give to forum based communities is to figure out how to put URLs in the factbook They have said in the past that they do know how to do this...
... but that they won't do it, because that's yet another detail that they'd have to police in order to prevent abuse (such as links to pornography, or to neo-Nazi sites).

They have said in the past that they do know how to do this...
... but that they won't do it, because that's yet another detail that they'd have to police in order to prevent abuse (such as links to pornography, or to neo-Nazi sites).

Could you not just post such a link on a RMB already?

The world system of NS2 was a problem, but not the whole of the problem. The group of folks I play with didn't want to bother with it because it was too detailed. It required tweaking stats in order to accomplish anything (horror!). And the fact that you got separated into worlds doesn't explain why the RP crowd didn't like it - the constraints its extra information put on RP are what did that, is what I'm hearing.

Communication - People join NS with their friends, atleast I did.
Not always. Perhaps something to put in the next survey?

The world system of NS2 was a problem, but not the whole of the problem. The group of folks I play with didn't want to bother with it because it was too detailed. It required tweaking stats in order to accomplish anything (horror!). And the fact that you got separated into worlds doesn't explain why the RP crowd didn't like it - the constraints its extra information put on RP are what did that, is what I'm hearing.


Sorry, I was just under the impression that the majority of Roleplayers didn't listen to the stats anyway - I suppose I was wrong, but the sort of stats that NS2 talked about aren't something one can roleplay interestingly anyway?

Not always. Perhaps something to put in the next survey?

We just simply must! How about a section of the quiz that deals with NS2's problems?

I would utterly surprised if no one atleast tried to get their friends into the game.
I think I recruited a dozen or so long standing players.

This is just a short suggestion but it would be nice to have a nations GDP shown as opposed to a general idea of the size of their economy.

Welcome to NS Jolt Nobodishal. I welcome telegrams from all nations on all topics of interest.

A formula for GDP, Exports, Imports, Surplus or Defecits. Oil, Natural Gas
and Agricultural production of respective products.

Base it on a (RW) real world nation. Divide NS population by RW population.
Rounded to next highest number. Times RW GDP, Exports, Imports and
productions respectively.

Best sources to use would be RW nation Statistical Year Books:
Source used for this exsample CIA World Factbook.

Exsample 1.

NS Population 8 Billion.
UK 2008 RW Population 60,943,912

UK 2008 GDP $ 2 Trillion 787 Billion.

UK 2008 Exports $ 468 Billion, 700 Million.
UK 2008 Imports $ 645 Billion, 700 Million.
UK 2008 Defecit $ 177 Billion.

NS Populion 8,000,000,000 divided by RW Populion 60,943,912 =

131.26822389,,,. Rounded to 132.

132 times 2,787 = GDP $ 367,884,000,000,000

132 times 468700 = Exports $ 61,868,400,000,000
132 times 645700 = Imports $ 85,232,400,000,000
Deficit $ 177 Billion.... = $ 23,364,000,000,000
------------------------------------------------------

Data is not equally current but used only as an exsample.

Oil Production: 1.690 million bbl/day (2007est.)
Oil Consumption 1.763 million bbl/day (2007 est.)
Oil Exports...: 1.749 million bbl/day (2005)
Oil Proved Reserves 3.6 billion bbl (1 January 2008 est.)

Here is an interesting link to oil production and other products and information from Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chart_of_exports_and_production_of_oil_by_nation

RW Population of 60,943,912 can be rounded to 60,944,000 to make numbers
easier to work with.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Note Production is Per Day:

Oil Production. 1.690 times 132 = 223,080,000
Oil Consumption 1.763 times 132 = 232,716.000
Oil Exports.... 1,749 times 132 = 230,868,000

Oil Proved Reserves 3,600 = 475,200,000,000

Once we have established production, consumption, exports and import levels we can establish real trade between our nations.

Oil Proved Reserves 3.600 billion bbl (1 January 2008 est.)
----------------------------------------------------------------

Esample 2: UK RW nation population 60,943,912 times 10 or 100 respectively.

GDP, Export, Imports, Productions times 10, or 100 respectively.
RW Population times 10: 609,439,912
RW population times 100: 6,094,391,200

Productions times 10,100 respectively.
-------------------------------------------------

OCC Sources:

Source: CIA World Factbook 2008 population estimates.

http://start.csail.mit.edu/mirror/cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-fact

book/fields/2119.html

Source 2009 - 2008 CIA World Factbook:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/

I would utterly surprised if no one atleast tried to get their friends into the game.

Present! I have never recruited anybody, spoken to any RL person about NS or even mentioned the possibility to any RL person that a concept such as NS might exist.

Present! I have never recruited anybody, spoken to any RL person about NS or even mentioned the possibility to any RL person that a concept such as NS might exist.


...well, we're going to have to see using a survey if you're a majority or a minority.

Please see Post 24 for original post. NationMaster while not perfect as it seems to mix yearly statistics is fairly good. Mostly a detailed overview of CIA World Factbook figures and other sources.

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/uk-united-kingdom/eco-economy

As I stated on Post 24 the best sources to use are RW nation statistical year book sources. On GDP, Exports and Imports by nations. Production of Oil and Natural Gas. Agricultural produce and trade.

Once we have established production, consumption, total exports and imports by nations we can have real trade between our nations.