NationStates Jolt Archive

We've been tossing some ideas around over in teh zOMG s3rkr1t Mod's Hideout, and we decided to see what the rest of you might be interested in. Basically, we're looking at ways of making the forums more interesting, and perhaps alleviate some of the congestion in NS, II and General. Not saying it's going to happen ... not saying we're even considering it ... just getting some ideas together to toss to the admins as a "what if?" at this point.

What we're looking for from you are specifics of how YOU would change the forums, on three basic levels: Top Level, Sub Forums, and descriptions. Post your suggestions (or quote this list and make your own changes in bold).

NationStates Roleplay (In-Character)
Lives & Times (Focusing on the individual citizens within and amongst the nations.)
International Incidents (A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events.)
International Cooperation (Where nations come together with treaties, embassies, and sporting events.)
Commerce & Industry (Supporting international trade of all sorts, but especially the weapons business. Booyah!)
NationStates Gameplay (In-Character or not, it's up to you)
National Facts (Show the world why your nation is fabulous.)
Regional News (Tell us what's happening in your region, and why we should join you there.)
The United Nations (Where UN members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.)
Got Issues? (A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.)
Nuts & Bolts (Problems, solutions, and speculations about the game)
Moderation (Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.)
Technical (Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.)
NationStates 2 (Rumour, innuendo, and vicious slander about the much-anticipated NationStates sequel.)
Archives (A dignified resting-place for the greatest threads of all time.)
General Discussion (Everything non-NationStates)
NationStates General (For discussion and debate about almost anything.)
In the News (What's going on in the so-called 'real world'?)
Chat & Spam (Where national leaders simply enjoy each others company)
Jennifer Government / Max Barry (About the Jennifer Government book and movie, as well as Company, Syrup and Max Barry in general.)

Please don't post to say simply "good idea" or "hate it" - use the poll for that. Let's get some creative juices flowing here.

(Please - no squirrels or llamas.)

Llama llama...I mean...certainly you want "separate" tech levels, not "seperate"?

Sorry.

Two things; the description for "Lives and Times" should perhaps be expanded to "Focusing on the individual citizens and leaders within and amongst the nations". As it is it sounds a bit like it's focusing on civilians. Civilians are nice and all, but national leaders are generally more interesting.

I'm also virulently opposed (and as I am sick at present, that's a lot of virulence) to the idea of splitting up the forums based on tech level; the idea of roleplaying one tech level and not interacting with others is rather cliqueish and restricts roleplay. Sure, people can do it if they want to, but I see no reason to enforce it. Plus there are as many tech levels as there are hairs to split, so you'd need a lot of sub-forums.

~ Tsar the Unwell.

Fixed the spelling of "separate", not that it matters much.

First, Tsar, I hope you feel better soon.
I would like to see General split into something more like a news forum and somewhere to discuss politics and religion. As an erstwhile Generalite, I think probably we need a chat and spam forum, but I don't want to see it called that -- perhaps we leave that as General and call the other two by the names Fris proposed.
With any luck, that makes some sense.

Do I really need to say it?

Though, I don't really visit here much anymore.

To be honest, I wish that there'd be a politics forum and a religion forum, not one for both. I'd rather not hear people debating about religion, and I'm sure there are some religious types who feel that politics should be banned in favor of worshipping god (or FSM or Max Barry or whoever).

I really only know General, so I'm talking about that.

I know we talk a LOT about religion ... that probably won't change ... but it seems odd to make a whole (whatcha call it?) room (?) for that.

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Pro: It might help with threads that don't start off about religion, but get hijacked. People could yell "go fight in the pews, you hijackers!"

It might actually be possible to talk about other religions or mystical philosophy, without it always turning into a Christian-bashing thing. Most people here have no stake in any religion but Christianity, perhaps Islam or Judaism. Those posters might be more reasonable if threads started off being about comparative theology or a specific religion.

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Con: The room might attract even more posters who have no interest in anything but arguing about religion. It's hard to see the relevance to Max Barry or the Nationstates game, II, or the UN. Admittedly I know nothing of NS 2 -- does it have religious components?

It kind of locks the religion into the structure of the forums, too. On an equal footing with politics, which is really more core to the NS theme.

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Of course, I'm not saying people shouldn't talk about religion ... there's a lot of passion there and that will always be more interesting and lively than say, economics.


I like the idea of Chat. Some posters will probably just hang there being boring, but that's better than wandering into serious discussions and being boring.

I like the idea of News -- a LOT. Instead of discussions about a current event getting diffused into political policy and left/right camps, there could be a sticky saying that posters are expected to actually read the story or bring some knowledge of it from other sources.


(Stickies matter even if in truth a lot of people either never wred them, or have mostly forgotten what they said (mea culpa on that one.) They're a thing any poster can point to to show someone who is being an ass what they did wrong. It shouldn't have to be told directly from a mod to be taken seriously.

Different stickies for the different rooms would be great. That would set a different tone in the different rooms.)

-----------------

One more idea (I have to go, sorry): Could we have more strictly PG-13 room (forum, whatever it's called). No swearing or sexual references or even talking about relationships? It would just be nice not to have that when you aren't feeling like it.

As an added bonus, creepy stalker types would head straight for it and be dead easy to pick.

I'll be around in about four hours ... and I won't be drunk tonight. Not doing THAT again, nosir.

Yes, I was the first to vote "blogs" ... typical :rolleyes:

I often type up stuff which starts on topic but ends up just being a personal rant. I copy it out to a text file and keep it for my own use, but I'd be happy to whack it on a blog.

Also, there isn't enough space in the signature to use that as a blog ... doesn't stop me trying. ;)

What's "forum 7" please ?

I actually disagree with the idea of splitting NSG into it's components. I just feel that keeping everything under one roof is better for the community. I mean, we've had this same setup for over 3 years now. Why mess with success?

Although I would like some Forum 7... *conspiracy*

EDIT: Yes, I voted for changes. I waffled.

Well, this could be interesting.

My thoughts:
Roleplay - I reserve judgement. I don't know enough about the current atmosphere in NS and II to judge what effect the changes may have.

Gameplay - One forum to talk about your nation and one to pimp your region? I haven't been in gameplay for a while, but it strikes me that overspecialisation of subforums would create a sense of emptiness in what would probably be a lesser used part of the site? Does that make sense?

Nuts and Bolts - Fair enough.

Now, General. This is interesting. An observation I will make is that many of the news threads in the current configuration often evolve into debates on the issues behind them. So, would having two seperate areas for debate and news have any effect? Apart from sectioning off all the pure debates into one area? Would the news section be somewhat limited if it was solely concerned with commenting on the days events? I like reading a news article and then seeing the debate spiral off into uncharted realms. Would this be stopped in the new news forum?

As for Chat & Spam, I do feel that there are fewer 'friendly' threads these days, though I will not get into the 'it was better in our day' debate. While a C&S section would allow this, I feel that possibly it would end up being slightly apart from the 'serious' fora, and that this would be detrimental to the tone of General in general (sorry). In my opinion, one of the main strengths of General was - and is - the ability to mix serious discussion and lighthearted fun; and I don't want to see this become diluted. It may be that all this takes is a change in Moderations attitude to 'friendly' threads*/a change in attitude of certain posters. If the second is the case, then no amount of forum fiddling will change it.

I guess my main point is that too many small, specific forums may turn NS from one large room where everyone mingles together, into many smaller rooms that aren't as connected. I feel that this would be detrimental to the site in the long run.

As for the legend that is Forum 7, lets leave it as just that - a legend.


*I should point out that my personal opinion on the decline of 'friendly' threads is that it has occurred partly because several old time posters have moved on, leaving their previous aquaintances on their own; and partly because some long time posters (which the forums rely on for their sense of community) seem unable to let vendettas lie.

EDIT: Yay bolding. Also, thank you for bringing this into the public like this, I'm sure we all appreciate being able to contribute to the site we've wasted/spent so much time on. :)

General Discussion (Everything non-NationStates)
NationStates General (For discussion and debate about almost anything.)
In the News (What's going on in the so-called 'real world'?)
Chat & Spam (Where national leaders simply enjoy each others company)
(Please - no squirrels or llamas.)

"A modern society institutionalizes change as one of its primary principles"

I'd never ever post to NS while technically sitting in a Social Sciences lecture.

Anyhow, I don't think that the splitting of NSG will work, because of several reasons:

1) I think the lines between the three fora in spe are way too blurred. Much discussion about somewhat general topics is initiated by talk about some happenings in the alleged RL/W, and I think it's terribly inefficient to try and seperate the two. The same goes for "chat" and "general discussion" on the other end of TheScale. There are some threads that are easily categorized in this system, but most are some sort of overlapping.

2) If NSG is famous for one thing, it must be for its unlimited capacity for derailment, and it would be terribly unusual for one thread that legitimately started in one category to still be justified there ten posts later. You underestimate NSG's, umm, dynamics and content-flexibilty :]

3) With these two things said, I presume it'd just be the same old mishmash more or less arbitrarily divided into three subfora, and it's be very annoying to have to navigate through those instead of staying in the one and only NSG (once again, I don't think the three subfora would draw noticeably different crowds)

That, and squirrels are a superior life form.

I have to agree, General could be left intact as one big chunk of a forum. Chat could turn into a serious debate, news could turn into a serious debate, and serious debate could be derailed into senseless chat.

Perhaps if we can have a spammy forum where we can post games (word games, mafia games, other games) and spam... but I believe jolt has a spam forum already...

But the question nagging me is, what would happen to existing threads? Would they be moved... all??

General Discussion (Everything non-NationStates)
NationStates General (For discussion and debate about almost anything.)
In the News (What's going on in the so-called 'real world'?)
Chat & Spam (Where national leaders simply enjoy each others company)
The institution of a chat/spam subforum that is not Jolt's default chat/spam forum could make sense - the Jolt spam forum is VERRRRRRRRRRRY spammy, much much more so than the average spammy NSG thread that gets shunted over there because it's too spammy for General. As in, they're doing "Count to one million" threads over there.
So it could be nice to have a sort of medium between General and Jolt's spam hell, a place not really so much for crappy spam as for social threads.

What I don't see working at all is the separation of "News" and ""Everything Else". Buh? If you take out the social/awards/advice/fun/recipe/whatever threads and put them into a new Social/Spam subforum anyway what else will you be left with but serious discussion? And I really don't think it makes sense to have one forum for "This was in the news today" and one for "Let's discuss this general philosophical question" - for one, because discussions of the latter variety most often develop out of the former and, for another, because it'd be horribly boring. And would mean that Spam would be huge, News big and Other tiny.

And now for the caveat:

Thinking about the many threads we have about bizarre/funny news, or about threads that get derailed from their original topic, or about non-social yet also non-deadly-serious topics - where would they go? Wouldn't the suggested separation into subfora only lead to the separation of "fun" and "serious" topics, period? Not being able to make a few lighthearted remarks in a thread because you'd get told to "knock it off, this isn't the social forum" would REALLY take the fun out of even the serious debating.
And seeing how many posters during the last few months have already been complaining about social threads being pushed to spam or locked, to further "cleanse" the serious debates of anything non-serious seems not exactly conducive to the "forum experience" (gah, ad speak).

General isn't exactly overrun with threads these days and hasn't been for many months now, so why not just leave it as it is? It has both serious and fun and it's still more than easy to avoid one of those if you want. Which, really? The vast majority of people don't.

As for Chat & Spam, I do feel that there are fewer 'friendly' threads these days, though I will not get into the 'it was better in our day' debate. While a C&S section would allow this, I feel that possibly it would end up being slightly apart from the 'serious' fora, and that this would be detrimental to the tone of General in general (sorry). In my opinion, one of the main strengths of General was - and is - the ability to mix serious discussion and lighthearted fun; and I don't want to see this become diluted. It may be that all this takes is a change in Moderations attitude to 'friendly' threads*/a change in attitude of certain posters. If the second is the case, then no amount of forum fiddling will change it.

I guess my main point is that too many small, specific forums may turn NS from one large room where everyone mingles together, into many smaller rooms that aren't as connected. I feel that this would be detrimental to the site in the long run.
Or I could have just quoted Turquoise Days and said "Aye"...

I believe the idea for "In the News" was for copy/paste... ah... spammers. As opposed to using an article to generate discussion or as the base for their point, the people who post an article with no comment (or the ever-enlightening "discuss").

I believe the idea for "In the News" was for copy/paste... ah... spammers. As opposed to using an article to generate discussion or as the base for their point, the people who post an article with no comment (or the ever-enlightening "discuss").

Ah, okay, thanks. But, um, who could possibly want a forum for that?

Ah, okay, thanks. But, um, who could possibly want a forum for that?

I know who would want it. I'll refrain from mentioning the names of certain deleted nations.

I'm of the opinion that the better question is: What kind of people would want it, and why would we want them here?

II works great as is. If you have to add something, then maybe add a storefront forum, but don't divide up the roleplay.

Forum 7, of course.

And the other thing I'd like to see is a serious debate subforum, probably a subset of General. Stay on topic, write properly, forbidden from derailing, etc. Maybe allow proper formal debate (chosen speakers, chair, questions and comments from audience, etc)?

So somewhere that serious debaters could go, without having to worry about derailment and trolling. Would be really cool to have it with a proper formal debate group - past debates, comment threads for debates, etc.

Chat & Spam (Where national leaders simply enjoy each others company)I'm not opposed to the idea in principle, but it might need a better description: the way it's phrased now feels IC when I think the purpose is supposed to be OOC.

I know who would want it. I'll refrain from mentioning the names of certain deleted nations.

I'm of the opinion that the better question is: What kind of people would want it, and why would we want them here?

Never knew he was "spamming"..

I don't think there's a neccessity to split II into MT/FT etc. Maybe a year ago, but not anymore, because I don't find it hard, confusing, or tiring to find an rp in mt and judging by the number of ft threads, confusing, or tiring to find an ft rp. So I don't think thats neccessary. Nor do I really think storefronts or any of these are neccessary but I think it is a good idea; a subforum of II for storefronts would be good because it opens up a whole new area where we can improve on our RP and simultaneously make it easier to find them.

Also, maybe splitting General into politics/religion and off-topic would be good, but I'm not a generalite and I'm not qualified to speak on behalf of generalites.

However I don't think splitting up II into stuff like that would be good. Firstly it makes more moderation work and lots of arguments as to what is what. Secondly, it marginalises the communtiy and makes it much more smaller; it would be much harder to become recognised. Thirdly, there's just no need for it.

I must say I do like the idea for a separate forum for storefronts, but here's what I think would be a better Roleplay setup:

* Lives & Times
This'd be good as a character RP forum so that peeps like Steel Butterfly and Rave Shentavo are sequestered away :p

* International Incidents
* International Cooperation
I think these should be merged into a single forum. Otherwise, you're breaking things up too much.

* Commerce & Industry
A STOREFRONT FORUM! YAAAAAAAY!


With the Gameplay forum thing, I think it would be better if the layout was something like this:
* National and Regional Incidents (National Facts and Regional News merged)
* The United Nations
* Got Issues?

The Nuts and Bolts stuff looks good, but I think you're splitting a bit too much up with the General Discussion stuff.
NationStates General (For discussion and debate about almost anything.)
In the News (What's going on in the so-called 'real world'?)
Chat & Spam (Where national leaders simply enjoy each others company)
All of that could be in a single forum. The instant you a general forum, it's going to get all of that type of thing. Though you could leave a Spam forum separate.



Plus, we need Forum 7. Anything less is a tragedy.

I believe the idea for "In the News" was for copy/paste... ah... spammers.

Not so much exclusively for that purpose, Hack - it's just that we wouldn't be so quick to enforce the rule forbidding that type of post. However, I'm swayed by the apparent majority that see that sort of division as too fractious.

I still think General is too big, and that worthy topics get pushed off the front page too quickly. I think it would be nice if someone was discussing some international topic, and it didn't get shoved to page four by a bunch of "Ask a ..." clones or five discussions about 'NSG royalty'. Find me a way to do that, and I'm happy.

But the question nagging me is, what would happen to existing threads? Would they be moved... all??
We're still designing this bridge, and you're already crossing it. We're nowhere near that point.

I'm not opposed to the idea in principle, but it might need a better description.
Am I the only one with a working keyboard? Write one! If it's good, maybe we'll use it.

Throwing my own two cents into the ring, if no one minds.

NationStates Roleplay (In-Character)
Lives & Times (Focusing on the individual citizens within and amongst the nations.)
International Incidents (A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events.)
International Cooperation (Where nations come together with treaties, embassies, and sporting events.)
Commerce & Industry (Supporting international trade of all sorts, but especially the weapons business. Booyah!)

The biggest problem I can see here is that there's no real clear-cut difference between II and IC - I can see a future where IC is just sports RPs, while II is everything else. No Endorse suggested merging the two - I'd be more of the opinion that a separate forum for Sports RP would work just as well, or a separate forum for war - I'm not sure, but it would work nearly as well, as far as I can see.

NationStates Gameplay (In-Character or not, it's up to you)
National Facts (Show the world why your nation is fabulous.)
Regional News (Tell us what's happening in your region, and why we should join you there.)
The United Nations (Where UN members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.)
Got Issues? (A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.)


"National Facts" is a really cool idea, actually. This works pretty well, I would say.

Nuts & Bolts (Problems, solutions, and speculations about the game)
Moderation (Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.)
Technical (Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.)
NationStates 2 (Rumour, innuendo, and vicious slander about the much-anticipated NationStates sequel.)
Archives (A dignified resting-place for the greatest threads of all time.)

No problems here.

General Discussion (Everything non-NationStates)
NationStates General (For discussion and debate about almost anything.)
In the News (What's going on in the so-called 'real world'?)
Chat & Spam (Where national leaders simply enjoy each others company)
Jennifer Government / Max Barry (About the Jennifer Government book and movie, as well as Company, Syrup and Max Barry in general.)

I can see the idea behind this and agree immensely - the only problem I can see is that the NSG forum is not really defined - essentially, it's what it is now, and will result in the same type of thing. A "serious debate/news" forum and a "Chat" forum would work just as well.

Guys, many NS'ers never even get to the forums. Because their nations are dying of boredom before they even discover them. And many forum contributors have such a loose connection to the game nowadays they're even forgetting to log into their nations and loosing their forum posting privileges.

It's the game which brings people to the forums. The game. Anyone remember the game ? Issues ? Founders ? Delegates ? Anyone ? I posted here last month about my concerns for the game. In the intervening period we've lost nearly 2,000 nations .... this point in the year we should be seeing an increase in game activity not a reduction.

Kudos to you guys for loving the forums and wanting some change to enhance "your thang" ... but I think you're losing focus ... it's the game which deserves our immediate attention and not the forums. IMHO.

Guys, many NS'ers never even get to the forums. Because their nations are dying of boredom before they even discover them. And many forum contributors have such a loose connection to the game nowadays they're even forgetting to log into their nations and loosing their forum posting privileges.

It's the game which brings people to the forums. The game. Anyone remember the game ? Issues ? Founders ? Delegates ? Anyone ? I posted here last month about my concerns for the game. In the intervening period we've lost nearly 2,000 nations .... this point in the year we should be seeing an increase in game activity not a reduction.

Kudos to you guys for loving the forums and wanting some change to enhance "your thang" ... but I think you're losing focus ... it's the game which deserves our immediate attention and not the forums. IMHO.

Game? There's a game involved? :eek:;)

Seriously, I'd love to see changes to the game, but that doesn't mean they can't revamp the forums. I'd love to see a "National Facts" section.

Definite support for splitting the "Gameplay" forum into more specifically defined entities.

The one category we don't have that I'd most like to see is a place where people could post IC threads of things going on within their nation that wouldn't necessarily involve interaction with others. Elections, for example: anything written in IC RP style. "Sound off on what's new in your part of the world." ...come to think of it, this could be merged into "Regional News". Maybe "Local News" to name an IC forum, with a separate area for factbook-style information?

As far as a better description for spam/chat, maybe something like "For lighthearted, casual chatter; smilies accepted with open arms."

I think that the two roleplaying forums need to be merged then divided.

RP Forum with subforums:
Character RP - where the rp is focused on characters rather than national over view
National RP- where the wars, and the incidents and embassies reside
Store Fronts - trade and commerce
International sports- for all of thsoe playing in various world leagues etc

Game Playwith sub forums:
National News
Regional News
The UN
Got Issues
Fact Books

I think that the two roleplaying forums need to be merged then divided.

RP Forum with subforums:
Character RP - where the rp is focused on characters rather than national over view
National RP- where the wars, and the incidents and embassies reside

The problem with this is that many of the more experienced roleplayers, and some of the newer ones, like myself, incorporate character roleplay heavily within our national roleplays. The more in depth we go, the better our story is, the better the roleplay is. As such, I don't think we should distinguish between these types of roleplay.

Game Playwith sub forums:
National News
Fact Books

My image of Nation News was a essentially factbooks. If you write IC, it's IC. If you can't roleplay, it's OOC. Either way, National News is self-roleplay, though you could conceivably have outsiders participating in your threads. I'd probably make a rule that nations can only create threads about their own nations (even puppets would have to have a forum account), and the OP would have the same sort of thread ownership currently enjoyed by OPs in NS and II.

I'd prefer to have an integrated wiki in the game, but it's probably not practical. Having done both, I'm certain it would be harder to moderate. NSwiki has proven that national factbooks are a natural fit ini wikis.

I'd prefer to have an integrated wiki in the game, but it's probably not practical. Having done both, I'm certain it would be harder to moderate. NSwiki has proven that national factbooks are a natural fit ini wikis.

And once NSWiki gets on a better server (no offense but this one sucks), it will prove even a better fit.

Amending my previous remarks; I would not be opposed to a Serious Debate forum as a subforum of NSG.

NSG is a community where nigh everybody brings something positive to the community. It's not just "I'm here for the serious debate" or "I'm here for the funz and chat". Many posters are a mix of both. I feel that seperating the community into 2 or 3 different forums would detract from the community as a whole.

Now, after that, why would I support a Serious Debate subform? It's obvious that some people on NSG love debate. I mean, they live for it. It seems fair for them to be given a place to conduct long term, well moderated debates, free from the spam that clogs up some threads. However, this should be a subform to highlight that Debate is just a part of the "Generalite Experience". Perhaps I'm overly romanticizing what amounts to internet chat, but I feel that debate is just something that we do, not the thing that defines the forum as a whole.

I definitely like Tanaara's concept of Roleplay divided into subforums. I would definitely keep II and NS as they are, but put them under a single RP header, and split off certain kinds of threads to their own subforum.

NationStates (RP forums)
*International Incidents (RP)
**for war, terrorist strikes, peace summits, etc.
I see II becoming more specialized, focusing more on immediate happenings rather than long-running threads. Wars, sneak attacks, emergency diplomacy, nuclear meltdowns, that sort of thing.

*NationStates (RP)
**for general embassy threads, annual conferences, international travel, etc.
NS would be the place for more established RPs, like long national dramas, travel stories, marriages, parties, embassy threads, alliances, etc. Many threads that currently reside in II would be put in NS instead, if only to reduce the load on one forum and make things clearer.

*NS Life (RP)
**for sports threads, newswires, regional happenings, storefronts, general commerce, etc.
As it is now, there are storefronts, newswires, and sports threads spread throughout NS and II. Having them all in one place would make for easy reference and navigation, and clearly delineate which threads should go where. You want weapons, go to NSL. You want embassies, go to NS.

*United Nations (RP, debate)
**duh.
Nothing in the UN forum needs to be changes, in my opinion. It works pretty well as it is.

Gameplay
* for factbooks, regional recruiting, flags, world leaders, capitals, ISO codes, etc. RP-optional
All that other stuff. I thought about putting embassy threads here, but since most of them are RPed they should go in NS. Things that aren't directly related to RP (ISO codes, factbooks, national flags, currencies) should go here, because they're peripheral game material.


Granted, there's not much of a change from the current paradigm, but as someone else mentioned, "why mess with a good thing?" I figure if there are small adjustments rather than large-scale changes, we can test the paradigms to see how they work out.

These were written on the fly, of course. I couldn't think of any pithy names for new forums.

Ahhh, don't break up General. Even if this sort of thing keeps 'worthy' threads on the front page, there's, what, only a fifth as many posters looking?

.

Could we really work the whole moderated debate thing? I mean, in an internet context in general it doesn't seem too functional...

I'm still interested in this thread, hopefully post later today.

Oh boy yeah, I have some opinions.

Could we really work the whole moderated debate thing?Oh, I'd love to have a forum with moderated debates. Sadly, I don't think that it would work properly: time zones, bad schedules, lack of time for Moderators; all that jazz.

What might work, though, would be a subforum akin to a blending of Jolt's "Serious Discussions" and our "International Incidents". In other words, a forum dedicated to actual serious discussion, with heavily enforced rules on etiquette and suchwise. It would probably be a low traffic forum, but would (hopefully) have a very high signal to noise ratio.

Not so much exclusively for that purpose, Hack - it's just that we wouldn't be so quick to enforce the rule forbidding that type of post. However, I'm swayed by the apparent majority that see that sort of division as too fractious.

I still think General is too big, and that worthy topics get pushed off the front page too quickly. I think it would be nice if someone was discussing some international topic, and it didn't get shoved to page four by a bunch of "Ask a ..." clones or five discussions about 'NSG royalty'. Find me a way to do that, and I'm happy.


I don't know that the problem is that pronounced. I write the most tragically unpopular threads known to General and I usually have to wait an embarrassingly long time for them to finally drift out of sight to hide my shame. Hell, right now at 6AM PST there is a thread that was locked at 8:50 PM PST still lingering on the front page.

Clone threads are banned and I think creating a place for them is kinda pointless-and I was someone who enjoyed Forum 7. But as fun as it was, it was pointless. I don't think it will slow NSG down so much or really give slow topics that much more of a chance (really, if no one is commenting then the thread isn't taking, is that really other thread's fault?) I think the trade off in not having to police clone threads will be having to constantly shuffle threads and deal with requests to move threads that fall into some gray area.

Further, I don't think the 'royalty' threads are that much of a threat to discussion. We had that war a long time ago and the debaters won. There is no more Paradise Club, the current whateverthehellthey'recalling it is the first of its kind in months. Social threads are rare and I think the complaint that they shove debate topics off the front page is out of date. I was there, I was on the side of the debaters, it was an issue, but we won and it's not so much anymore.

The lasting, page consuming threads on NSG really are issue/debate threads. Sometimes not the most serious discussions, and sometimes pure internet threads ("Who would win-") but then again, where would that thread go? It's BS, but it's not social, it's an actual discussion. See the potential gray areas? I think you're creating more hassle for your self while solving a problem that at best just isn't that bad and at worst just doesn't exist anymore.

Oh, I'd love to have a forum with moderated debates. Sadly, I don't think that it would work properly: time zones, bad schedules, lack of time for Moderators; all that jazz.

What might work, though, would be a subforum akin to a blending of Jolt's "Serious Discussions" and our "International Incidents". In other words, a forum dedicated to actual serious discussion, with heavily enforced rules on etiquette and suchwise. It would probably be a low traffic forum, but would (hopefully) have a very high signal to noise ratio.

If we do this, can we have a Formal Debate subset of it. Prechosen speakers and topics, questions and discussion permitted only after first major arguments, etc.

Think a debate society, through an internet forum.

Edit: If you wanted to do moderated debate, maybe appoint people who have established themselves as reasonable debaters as moderaters for just that forum. So these people have mod powers inside that forum, but are subject to strict restrictions on how they use their power. They'd have to be people who don't mind being flamed occasionally, and are prone to rational discussion instead of shouting wars.

Maybe appoint people who have established themselves as reasonable debaters as moderaters for just that forum. So these people have mod powers inside that forum, but are subject to strict restrictions on how they use their power.
I don't see a need to give Debate Moderators any special abilities. I could see a debate forum where the OP laid out the topic, the participants, and the Debate Moderator(s) for that thread. I don't think that someone who moderates a discussion on gun rights necessarily being the same moderator for a China vs. Taiwan debate. Maybe the equivalent of an II [OOC - interest] thread could be used to set it up.

As for granting special or limited powers to another sub-group while we're on Jolt - ain't gonna happen. They took over a month just to turn one Mod's normal powers back on after his nation accidentally died. Getting them to do normal maintenance is like pulling teeth ... and I've personally no interest in getting them to sit still for the series of root canals that this would entail.

Reasonable people can arrive at reasonable consensus. If a serious debate forum were to exist at all, it would require reasonable people already. The details should be easy.

As a generalite, I wouldn't want sub-sections. The thing I enjoy is the (sometimes unnexpected!) mixture of the serious and frivolous. Stumbling upon threads that you wouldn't have clicked on otherwise is actually pretty fun. Compartmentalization makes for less lively forums, in my experience.

I don't see a need to give Debate Moderators any special abilities. I could see a debate forum where the OP laid out the topic, the participants, and the Debate Moderator(s) for that thread. I don't think that someone who moderates a discussion on gun rights necessarily being the same moderator for a China vs. Taiwan debate. Maybe the equivalent of an II [OOC - interest] thread could be used to set it up.

As for granting special or limited powers to another sub-group while we're on Jolt - ain't gonna happen. They took over a month just to turn one Mod's normal powers back on after his nation accidentally died. Getting them to do normal maintenance is like pulling teeth ... and I've personally no interest in getting them to sit still for the series of root canals that this would entail.

Reasonable people can arrive at reasonable consensus. If a serious debate forum were to exist at all, it would require reasonable people already. The details should be easy.

Okay then, just kicking out ideas.

But yeah, for any sort of serious debate forum, having 'OOC' planning topics would make things much easier. (you can tell I'm in the debate society at my school, can't you?)

WRT to General, I have come around to the view that sub-forums would make things worse. I'm NO LONGER in favour of Chat or News or Blog sub-fora.

Fris feels that General is too big, and it probably is, but splitting it up will only create another level of confusion, another thing to bicker about with "you posted in the wrong place, sucky polls are banned here" etc etc.

It's really up to the users to encourage what they like and ignore what they don't. Like the War on Trolls or whatever it's called, it's just an opportunity for users who are frustrated with each other to waste the time of mods.

Most of the things I'd want changed are probably Jolt issues, either Jolt-wide or inherent in the vBulletin interface. I want structured threads (or at least forward-linking to replies), I want more useful smilies (particularly the post smilies, but why not just ditch the in-post gun smilies?) and I want user rating of each other's posts. I want the option of longer polls and of polls within posts.

The Brevious had a great habit which could be a guide for users to make the General forum better for themselves: when he agreed to a post he was answering, he'd tag his reply with the thumbs-up, and on the rarer occasions when he wanted to argue, it would be the thumbs-down. Unfortunately, those two, the angry and the plain-smile post-summary smilies are the only really useful ones.

Making our intentions plainer is something that posters can do for themselves and probably doesn't even belong in this discussion. I just want to point out that it's possible and there will still be plenty of chaos for those who like that.

So is this in the works or what?

Even if I'm no longer really active around here, quick comment. On the whole, I like the suggestion in the OP, with one mild caveat. I'm a little uncertain about seperating "In the News" from General. It's a blurred line, since most topics in General seem to stem from current events. I can't say I'm in any way opposed to a News forum, but I just thought I should point that out.

*fades back into nothingness*

I'm quite content with the forums the way they are, actually. As per the suggestions in the OP, I know they aren't set in stone, some are mildly interesting ideas, but the only one I really like is the "In the News" section, a sanctuary for those annoying copy-and-paste spammers. Otherwise, splitting the Gameplay forum makes little sense, as it is used for precious little as it is, and dividing up the homes of the NS and NSG communities seems a tad cruel. Well, maybe not cruel; I could just see why one or two of them would be upset, or at least annoyed.

splitting the Gameplay forum makes little sense, as it is used for precious little as it is,
You apparently have no idea how many regional ads we get in the wrong forums. New players need EXPLICIT direction, and Gameplay as currently defined doesn't grab their attention.

The Nation section would pull some of the factbooks out of the RP section and move them to Gameplay. My vision is of a mix of RP and non-RP factbooks. My ideal vision is a forum that opens NSwiki while logging you in with your nation name on your own nation page. As long as we're using pie in the sky, might as well ask for whipped topping too.

I also moved UN and Issues into a Gameplay section, rather than Roleplay and Technical. The four elements of gameplay are nations, regions, issues, and the UN (discounting the Raiding game, which nobody writes about on public forums anyway). Thus, we're not so much splitting as reorganizing.
dividing up the homes of the NS and NSG communities seems a tad cruel. Well, maybe not cruel; I could just see why one or two of them would be upset, or at least annoyed.
You underestimate our delight in annoying the player base. What's the use of god-like powers if you don't use them from time to time to screw with the Little People?

What about UN RP? The UN Forum, as distinct to the UN in NS itself, is RPed quite dramatically, especially in cases such as the Strangers Bar.

[edit] Hopefully that made sense. I think I had a tad too many commas there.

Oh, I'd love to have a forum with moderated debates. Sadly, I don't think that it would work properly: time zones, bad schedules, lack of time for Moderators; all that jazz.

What might work, though, would be a subforum akin to a blending of Jolt's "Serious Discussions" and our "International Incidents". In other words, a forum dedicated to actual serious discussion, with heavily enforced rules on etiquette and suchwise. It would probably be a low traffic forum, but would (hopefully) have a very high signal to noise ratio.

I love that idea.

I don't see why NationStates needs a chat/spam forum when Jolt already has one. I can easily see that forum turning into the exact same thing the jolt spam is minus the FinalFrontier bot spam.

I'd like to see Hack's idea be the only addition/change to Anything & Everything.

I think I'll echo the suggestions not to try and divide general up. The big appeal of general is that it's debate and discussion on almost everything, that and there's a great mish-mash of spam and serious, even within individual threads.

Though, a forum for very serious formal debates might be good. I seem to remember a few attempts to make such threads in NSG that never caught on, but they might if they had their own forums.

Even if I'm no longer really active around here, quick comment. On the whole, I like the suggestion in the OP, with one mild caveat. I'm a little uncertain about seperating "In the News" from General. It's a blurred line, since most topics in General seem to stem from current events. I can't say I'm in any way opposed to a News forum, but I just thought I should point that out.

*fades back into nothingness*

i have to say i like the way General is now. the idea of splitting off current affairs would leave General either barren or just full of spam with the occasional good thread.

i think the mix of General is great, and its the mix of people there that makes it great. hive off a large number of those to a different place (eg In The News) and that mix is lost. its the mix, the people and the range of topics that's made me stay on this forum for as long as i have; which is far, far longer than i've stayed with any other online community of any sort before or since.


save NSG!

my two cents :)

I would like to see a one on one debate section. I have brought this up before, actually. I think that there are far too many times when a person is debating in a thread with one other person, then leaves for a bit, and comes back and has to search through so many new posts, and also possibly have to address other people who reply to something they have said. So, in order to alleviate that, there would be a new forum where people can challenge others to one on one debates. I think that would be a very fruitful forum.

Also, it might be worth a try to split up General into Politics, Religion, and then Chat/Spam. It would be more easier to browse through the topics.

" If it ain't broke, don't fix it... "
- Some Conservative on Subject XYZ

We've been tossing some ideas around over in teh zOMG s3rkr1t Mod's Hideout, and we decided to see what the rest of you might be interested in. Basically, we're looking at ways of making the forums more interesting, and perhaps alleviate some of the congestion in NS, II and General. Not saying it's going to happen ... not saying we're even considering it ... just getting some ideas together to toss to the admins as a "what if?" at this point.

What we're looking for from you are specifics of how YOU would change the forums, on three basic levels: Top Level, Sub Forums, and descriptions. Post your suggestions (or quote this list and make your own changes in bold).

NationStates Roleplay (In-Character)
Lives & Times (Focusing on the individual citizens within and amongst the nations.)
International Incidents (A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events.)
International Cooperation (Where nations come together with treaties, embassies, and sporting events.)
Commerce & Industry (Supporting international trade of all sorts, but especially the weapons business. Booyah!)
NationStates Gameplay (In-Character or not, it's up to you)
National Facts (Show the world why your nation is fabulous.)
Regional News (Tell us what's happening in your region, and why we should join you there.)
The United Nations (Where UN members debate how to improve the world, one resolution at a time.)
Got Issues? (A place to spoil daily issues for those who haven't had them yet, snigger at typos, and discuss ideas for new ones.)
Nuts & Bolts (Problems, solutions, and speculations about the game)
Moderation (Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.)
Technical (Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.)
NationStates 2 (Rumour, innuendo, and vicious slander about the much-anticipated NationStates sequel.)
Archives (A dignified resting-place for the greatest threads of all time.)
General Discussion (Everything non-NationStates)
NationStates General (For discussion and debate about almost anything.)
In the News (What's going on in the so-called 'real world'?)
Chat & Spam (Where national leaders simply enjoy each others company)
Jennifer Government / Max Barry (About the Jennifer Government book and movie, as well as Company, Syrup and Max Barry in general.)

Please don't post to say simply "good idea" or "hate it" - use the poll for that. Let's get some creative juices flowing here.

(Please - no squirrels or llamas.)

I think that the two roleplaying forums need to be merged then divided.

RP Forum with subforums:
Character RP - where the rp is focused on characters rather than national over view
National RP- where the wars, and the incidents and embassies reside
Store Fronts - trade and commerce
International sports- for all of thsoe playing in various world leagues etc

Game Playwith sub forums:
National News
Regional News
The UN
Got Issues
Fact Books


Awesome. I suggested some of these ages ago (search function seems to be down ATM, or I'd linkl my old suggestions) but hadn't seen this til Ardchoille pointed it out.

Here's the lay out I find seems to fit the current play as I see it:
RP FORUMS:
RP Fourum I - Sub national level:
Sub Forum A - Character RP
Sub Forum B - Sport RP
Sub Forum C - Other RP that's non-national

RP Forum II - National level:
Sub Forum A - Wars and conflicts
Sub Forum B - Trade (storefronts, aid, etc.)
Sub Forum C - Diplomacy (embassies and the like)

Meta-RP Forum
Sub Forum A - IC meta-RP Factbooks, ISO listings, con-worlding, etc.
Sub Forum B - OOC - discussion of RPs, setting up RPs, and so on
Sub Forum C - OOC meta-RP check my tank's stats and the like

GAMEPLAY FORUMS:
Region Play Forum - recruiting, crashing, etc.

UN Play Forum - Same as now

Issues and Stats Forum - Qs re issues , issues spoilers, etc.

NUTS and BOLTS:
Technical: Bug reports, general help, ideas for improvements, and questions about how things are meant to work.

Moderation: Who needs it, who got it, who hands it out and why.

Archive: A dignified resting-place for the greatest threads of all time.

NationStates 2: Rumour, innuendo, and vicious slander about the much-anticipated NationStates sequel.

Jennifer Government (book, movie): About the Jennifer Government book and movie, as well as Syrup and Max Barry in general.


GENERAL:
I'm really of two minds here. General Debate (politics/religion/etc.), Conversational, and Forum 7/NSSpam might be an equitable move...

Okay, only just discovered this thread now...

Bring back forum 7... please?

We promise a super uber mega temple to the admin who gives us forum 7!

F7 or GTFO!

Seriously, though, restoring forum 7 would be awesome.

I like to see a forum which covers creativity, from art to graphic design and stories and other things too.

NationStates Roleplay (In-Character)
Lives & Times (Focusing on the individual citizens within and amongst the nations.)
International Incidents (A staging-point for declarations of war and other major diplomatic events.)
International Cooperation (Where nations come together with treaties, embassies, and sporting events.)
Commerce & Industry (Supporting international trade of all sorts, but especially the weapons business. Booyah!)

Honestly Fris I would prefer if you didn't seperate them like this. Most of my big RP's often are all of the first three. Now where would I put my thread? And if the answer is "any which one" then the titles are pointless to begin with.

Are the current forums so bad? This board has been alive for over 5 years! Something's working right.

I'm sick of NSG being at the bottom of the main-portal-thingy the one change that is needed is to move it right to the top (seeing as how it contains the majority of posts and is generally more new guy friendly)

I'm sick of NSG being at the bottom of the main-portal-thingy the one change that is needed is to move it right to the top (seeing as how it contains the majority of posts and is generally more new guy friendly)

Except for the fact that it has the absolute least to do with the game itself. Most places have their general forums on the bottom. NationStates is no exception, and should not be one either.

Bring back Forum 7 :D

I like the idea of blogs.....although I don't agree that my posts are bloggy, it's just my writing style.

Spam is good. I've been spamming elsewhere and some generalites are missing out on my musings on things like music, food, and Paris Hilton.

I can't see anything wrong with the one we have now