NationStates Jolt Archive

I've noticed that in NationStates, the following people get a fancy badge:

U.N members
U.N Delegates
Forum Moderators
Game Moderators
Admins

But not regional founders?

Why not?

I feel there should be.

Anyone agree?

Time for a bump, I feel.

As a region founder, I feel I should get some sort recognition for recrutment, updating things, keeping it active, etc etc. And I feel a badge would make me feel proud.

But, I think you should only have the badge on your nation if you stay in the region you created.

This is a question that cannot be answered by players. therefore,
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v488/frisbeeteria/moved_sm.jpg to Technical.

Time for a bump, I feel.
One bump every 24 hours is usually sufficient in the Nuts & Bolts forums and Gameplay. 9 minutes is a bit overdoing it.

One bump every 24 hours is usually sufficient in the Nuts & Bolts forums and Gameplay. 9 minutes is a bit overdoing it.

Whoops.

Wont happen again.

Whoops.

Wont happen again.

Wait TNM I think you just did it again. :)

Wait TNM I think you just did it again. :)

Hey Kall glad to see you on here.

it like a badge of honor. give it to them they deserve it.

it like a badge of honor. give it to them they deserve it.

Good point.

It's harder to create a region than it is to join the U.N.

yeah the lack of regional talk drove me here. Atheist Haven coming around pretty nicely though.

yeah the lack of regional talk drove me here. Atheist Haven coming around pretty nicely though.

Ta for the compliments.

Oh, Kall, have you been doing any advertising in a feeder region, namely The North Pacific?

BTW, for those who can't guess, Kall was one of the first to join the region

not too much today, just a few. Looks like a pretty slow day all over.

not too much today, just a few. Looks like a pretty slow day all over.

So you do, right?

Good, because I was wondering if anyone apart from me was spamming other regions.

I feel we should get a badge as well. Make it red, I say.

Anyway, I really feel we should get one. I agree in the fact that it's harder to create a region with people actually in it (not 2 or 3) than it is to join the U.N. It took me a month to finally get 13 people, and after my hard work I am hosting a merger between us and 2 other regions. Hey, if anyone wants to merge with us, too, that's alright with us. However, the way we are making the region is already set up, so you won't get any control, or delegacy, or nothing. You can, though, be a part of a new region rising from the depths of the NationStates virtual ocean. From several regions of 15 and less, we will create one of 50 or more! JOIN US!!!

Oh, and give me a badge already! :(

Just a couple of remarqs. If you create a region, and you're in another region, should the badge still show, since you're not that region's founder? If it's a standard badge "founder", and the foundernation is in some random region, you won't be able to tell which region he's founder off. And suppose it's a badge which states the region's name (eg "Founder of Region X"), then you'll have to keep in mind 1 nation can be founder of several regions at the same time. However I do agree that in most cases a regional founder plays a significant role in a region, becoming a founder is easy as hell.. you'll only have to click twice (move to a new region, create a new region).

Some idea of mine that has something to do with this. On the region-page, both delegate and founder are mentioned at the top, but only the flag of the UN Delegate is shown. Maybe the founder's flag could also be shown?

I sometimes feel that at the top, the founder is only added as an afterthought.
And a reminder to all, without regional founders, you would still be in the Pacific! And no one likes the Pacific.

Also, why are there still, like, 7000 nations in the Pacific, even though it only takes 5 seconds to move?

If I recall correctly the reason behind this was that Max himself directed that the position of delegate should have more emphasis than the founder as a seat of power. Same reason why the founder doesn't have its flag beside it on the region page while the delegate does.

If I recall correctly the reason behind this was that Max himself directed that the position of delegate should have more emphasis than the founder as a seat of power. Same reason why the founder doesn't have its flag beside it on the region page while the delegate does.

Which is illogical considering that the founder can deny the delegate access to regional control, thus leaving the delegate with less power.

Aye, I think we should.

That way we know who our enemy is :sniper:

Hahahaha. Just kidding.

Yes, the badge is a good idea.

While I certainly wouldn't mind a founder badge(or one for each founder nation, heh), it is indeed true that it's far easier to found a region than become a delegate. The point about recruitment is true, although it's easy to create a region and fill it with puppets (as I used to do a lot, and still do to some extent in my main region).

I also think that if this were to be instituted (which Siro has indicated was initially shot down for a reason), that it should as Puppet nr variable (Bleasedale, right?) suggested that it should only apply to founders in their regions. Otherwise, it could get pretty confusing.

So really, I'm ambivalent. If Max changes his mind, fine, if not, I don't really care. I just, as always, want to get my 2/144ths of a drachauq in.

Which is illogical considering that the founder can deny the delegate access to regional control, thus leaving the delegate with less power.
Except that it takes no effort to be a Founder. All you need to do is come up with a name nobody else has. Being a Delegate actually requires the support of other people.

Except that it takes no effort to be a Founder. All you need to do is come up with a name nobody else has. Being a Delegate actually requires the support of other people.

Ummm..NO! Being a regional delagate does require support, but that support wouldn't be there if the founder hadn't been recruting or somehow otherwise getting people to come. So there would be no support for the delagate if the founder did not get support for the region.

Oh yea, :sniper: shot you down!

Oh yea, :sniper: shot you down!

Hardly.

Ummm..NO! Being a regional delagate does require support, but that support wouldn't be there if the founder hadn't been recruting or somehow otherwise getting people to come. So there would be no support for the delagate if the founder did not get support for the region.

Oh yea, :sniper: shot you down!
First of all, it may not be the case in every instance that a founder brings nations to the region.

Secondly, the delegate must obviously have popular support and recognition to have become delegate. Whereas being founder does not necessitate popular support. Often, where a founder is heavily backed, that nation is also delegate.

But is not the founder mechanism simply an auxiliary element created for regional security? This is obviously reflected in the many regions that have a generic founder; more so in those with a shared founder.

One particular region has such a founder named 'Vigilant Guard'. A delegate denotes someone appointed or elected to represent others. It is this 'representative' nature of the delegacy, as opposed to the guardianship.

Might I just also note that the strongest supporters of this suggestion are in fact founders of regions they are in the process of building. Now the question is this: to found a region for the region ___ or for personal recognition?

[edit: note: obviously not definitive: there is chance I am mistaken about certain assumptions]

Ummm..NO! Being a regional delagate does require support, but that support wouldn't be there if the founder hadn't been recruting or somehow otherwise getting people to come. So there would be no support for the delagate if the founder did not get support for the region.

Oh yea, :sniper: shot you down!Who says that the founder has to do the recruiting?

Who says that the founder has to do the recruiting?

At the very beginning, the founder is the only one there, so he or she has to do all the work.

Just to weigh in, I'd like a founder badge, and I agree with English Humour that it should only be put on a nation if that nation is still in the reigon in question. Also, the founder flag would be nice to have on the regional page.

On the founder vs. delegate debate, I'm the founder of my region that currently has just over 100 nations in it and I've been the delegate before with a peak of something like 35 endorsements. From my experience, acting as the founder is much harder, as our delegate position is mostly a figurehead thing anyway. But even aside from that, in my region and in other regions, the founder seems to be the head of the internal region, while the delegate seems to be more of the head of regional relations.

The thing is, I busted (and still do bust) my ass to get my region where it is today. While I've recently been getting help from a couple of good nations in my region, I had to do virtually all the recruiting in addition to running the region and enforcing the law, not to mention constantly finding things to keep people happy and busy in the region as well as active. So while anyone can start a region, to actually make it a GOOD region, the founder has to do way more work than anyone else in the region unless they luck out and get a bunch of intelligent and dedicated people underneath them in a short amount of time.

The delegate position, meanwhile, can be simply acquired via good politicing. While this can be something of an art form in and of itself, it's nothing that is hard to do by any means. The hardest part about being delegate for me was dealing with all the telegrams to support every supid resolution that got put fourth. For every one good telegram I received, about 20 very bad ones came though. Now, just as with founders, good delegates and bad delegates do exist, but even when I've seen a dedicated, hard working delegate in a region, the region still usually (I have seen some examples that clearly defy this, but not many) doesn't go anywhere with an inactive or apathetic founder at the helm. Hell, why should the delegate work to build someone else's region when they can go make their own? And, while I understand the initial reasoning in giving the delegate a seemingly more important role than the founder, isn't that a bit slanted for a political simulation game? I mean, really, it's very biased towards democracies if you think about it. In regions like mine, for example, democracy simply does not exist on any meaningful level. I call my region's shots and answer to no one else in my region, it's a total dicatotorship, but one that works and one who's populace is very happy with the way their region is ran. So, like I said before, our delegate is basically a figurehead who has no real power besides to be harassed and to approve proposals. While the democracy slant is fine and cool and all, as this is Max's baby before anyone else's and he is our resident lord and master, I'm just saying that the importance of the delegacy in any given region is not the same as in any other region and is always based on what the founder believes is the correct level of the importance of the delegate (Feeders, RR and Lazarus excluded). The delegate answers to the founder, and not the other way around.

And my last argument for the importance of the founder over the delegate (though both are important) is that the founder is the last, best line of defense. Being an invader region from time to time, I can tell you that regions that have active, involved founders are NOT going to be invaded by us or anyone else because we will fail. Meanwhile, active delegates don't mean a damn thing to us besides a little more challenge that is still easy to overcome. Living, active founders are regional guardians that, short of being deleted for some reason, are eternal protectors of their region with basically god like power in a region. They can go through password blocks, cannot be banned and can always get to the RCs, as well as lock out the delegate. The delegate, meanwhile, does not have these powers and his power relies on popular support that is easily broken. In fact, one of our tactics when we capture a region is to boot the delegate right away. If he doesn't show back up by the update of his endorsments, he will come back to a region powerless. He abilities and powers are limited and fleeting, the founder's are not. Delegates come and go, founders are consistant (well, unless they die).

And the above security point plays nicely into why the founder should get a nice big, bright badge and his flag on the regional page. If I see a big "Regional Founder" badge on some nation that is always active and clearly dedicated, his region is going to be safe. Likewise, if his flag is a standard that is clearly seen by all that enter the region and is something to be both feared and respected by all who would do harm to his region, as he is a vigilant founder, that flag will instill both a sense of pride in his region and a sense of fear in those who wish ill upon them. Now, find me a delegate that can lord that sort of power over his region.

So, here's an idea, how about making a threshold of some sort to get it. Say a region gets 20 nations, the founder gets his badge. 50 and he can get his flag on the regional page or something like that. This would give the founder a couple of extra incentives to work to build his region and would hopefully get rid of the 10,000 regions with 10 or fewer people in them. Or, alternatively, and I'm sure this would require some work to implement, make it so that the founder, in the RCs, has the option to specifiy who is the important one in the region, the founder or delegate. If he clicks the "Democracy" button, the delegate gets his flag. If "Dictatoship", founder gets his flag. Maybe take it a step further. If "Anarchy", no flag for anyone, and if "Ineffiecent Socialism", everone gets their flag!

But hey, badge and flag or not, what really matters is where the actual power lies, and I don't think that is going to be leaving the founders anytime soon. So, while a couple of little perks would be nice, the power is where the money's at, and the founders shall always be rich. ;)

You've made some good points, but fail to consider sufficiently in my opinion, what the point of a regional badge/flag, etc.

What? Sure a founder probably contributes the most to a region, and has the most power in a region, but why is this a reason for a founder badge?

"Likewise, if his flag is a standard that is clearly seen by all that enter the region and is something to be both feared and respected by all who would do harm to his region, as he is a vigilant founder, that flag will instill both a sense of pride in his region and a sense of fear in those who wish ill upon them. Now, find me a delegate that can lord that sort of power over his region."

I don't think a regional flag being shown, would deter me any more or less from harming a region. Not to mention why would it being a deterent even be a good reason for a founder shown badge/flag.

Just as you claim that a delegate is purely a figurehead (in regions with founders) and have no actual power, only symbolic, having their flag on the region page and a delegate badge is likewise only symbolic: it has no real effect

You've made some good points, but fail to consider sufficiently in my opinion, what the point of a regional badge/flag, etc.

What? Sure a founder probably contributes the most to a region, and has the most power in a region, but why is this a reason for a founder badge?

I don't think a regional flag being shown, would deter me any more or less from harming a region. Not to mention why would it being a deterent even be a good reason for a founder shown badge/flag.

Just as you claim that a delegate is purely a figurehead (in regions with founders) and have no actual power, only symbolic, having their flag on the region page and a delegate badge is likewise only symbolic: it has no real effect

On the issue of the flag/badge being shown as a deterent, that's more for an efficient target selection process than anything else. I'll let everyone in on another Empire secret here. Alright, we have scouts who go and complie lists of regions to invade/spy on/whatever. They file their reports and an officer (usually me) from our military will jump through their listed regions and decide what looks good and what doesn't. Of course, we always check the founder. But, if I were to open a region page, and a flag of say Pope Hope was on the founder, I'll just as quickly move along and call it a bad target. Never underestimate a good flag and what it can do. Plus, like I said, a founder's flag can act, to some degree, as a regional flag. The Gatesville founder's flag, for example, pretty clearly gets his region's message across. As for the badge, say some nation sends me a pissy little telegram and I decide to turn his region into a parking lot. I pull up his nation's page and he has the founders badge, I quickly retool to just send him a equally pissy telegram instead. Nothing would really change, but it would speed my life up a little at least. And I am sure though that many regions, especially oft invaded ones, would appreciate any little item that may deter invasions, even if it only works here and there, if at all.

But as to the actual point of the founder badge/flag, it's exactly like both you and I have already pointed out in different ways. Really, it accomplishes nothing, just like the delegate badge/flag. Well, that's not true, the delegate badge makes it easy for nations to quickly identify the delegate if they come across him to spam him with their proposals. But anyway, it would just be an extra little item for the founder to recognize (and in some cases legitimize, as people tend to latch onto crap like that) them for their efforts. This bringing me back to my idea about having nation # requirements for the founder to get his trinkets. But the security thing and all that is basically just me thinking out loud about some possible uses for/results of the badge/flag.

So really, my short point is that yes, the founder badge/flag would have no real definite effect besides being for show. But, the delegate badge/flag is the same way and as you confirm above, the founder gives more to the region and has more power in the region than anyone else. As such, if the delegate gets a little extra recognition, why shouldn't the founders when they do much more work? It's not like it would be that hard to add in, or that much heavier on bandwidth, so why not? What would really be the downside to giving the founders a little extra item or two to recognize their efforts? After all, Nasicournia, 10000 Islands, The DEN Base, The YoungWorld, Bloodmoon Empire and the other 15,991 (as of this writing) regions out there are what make this game what it is, and founders make those regions what they are. Without us, NS would have 7 regions and not many people would probably stick around very long.

Or, alternatively, why not just pull all badges, UN members, Mods, everything? I mean, the badges don't really do anything anyway, and it won't fundimentally alter the game in any way. Mods will still have their powers, UN nations will still have endorsement links, and delegates will still be delegates. If anything, it will save the site some bandwidth, especially if we pull the delegate flags off the regional page. Now see, I'm sure when almost anyone reads that, they'll say, "That's a dumb idea" or something along those lines. Mark my words, if the Founder badge/flag were to be implemented and someone threw the idea to remove them out 6 months later, he'd get torn apart on the boards.

What? Sure a founder probably contributes the most to a region, and has the most power in a region, but why is this a reason for a founder badge


Not like it matters, but didnt you just contradict yourself?

This post is only addressing the question of a badge, nothing else (and I apologize for being brief):

It won't happen.

This post is only addressing the question of a badge, nothing else (and I apologize for being brief):

It won't happen.

Oh, okay then.

Totally understand.

Max has his reasons (even if I do find them flawed) and is probably too busy writing book #3 to worry about this minor concern.

And the rest of the programmers are most likely doing other stuff.

Just keep it mind in case you get terminally bored and want to do something! :)

Max has his reasons (even if I do find them flawed) and is probably too busy writing book #3 to worry about this minor concern.

And the rest of the programmers are most likely doing other stuff
Salusa is not Max. Nor is he [violet], the original Admin.

Salusa is in fact the other site Admin and programmer, and he's the one who's been doing most of the recent bug-fixes and updates. If he says "no", then that's your answer.

There being no further reason to keep this thread open, iLock.