NationStates Jolt Archive

I would like to see a longer description for each nation state as well as a complete list of enacted laws and/or a complete legislation history.

Thank you for your time.

A complete list of all legislation ever passed? Do you realize that that would make some national descriptions go on for pages?

I have my nation set to receive two issues per day, because I want to get everything up to "World Benchmark" as quickly as I can. (I'm almost there.) Now, I've been around for a little over half a year, so if all legislation was included, I would have nearly four hundred laws listed in my national description. This is simply not feasible.

And what if I was an April 2003 nation set to receive issues twice a day? I would then have about fifteen hundred laws listed in my national description. That's a bit much. :rolleyes:

It's easy to think such things when you've only been here a couple of days.

Simply because my nation has only been active for a few days does not mean I have failed to consider that nations here for quite some time would have a rather extensive list. In fact that is why I would like such an “excessive” list, so that when my nation is one, two, three years old I can go back and see what laws I enacted during my first days, months, years on the game, as well as see what laws have been mitigated or repealed by other more recent ones.

Besides your challenges have little merit, first off I said, “I would like to see a longer description for each nation state as well as a complete list of enacted laws and/or a complete legislation history.” The wording clearly implies two separate requests. First off I ask for a “longer description.” In which I purposely use a subjective term that leaves room for interpretation open to the moderators and game designers so that they can enact it (if they choose to do so) as they see fit. I then go on to ask for a separate unabridged list of enacted laws. Thus mature nations would not have descriptions that would go on for pages they would have a “longer” description and a separate page with the legislation history on it.

Much data is already put forth for the user to sift through and much of that data the user has no history with, for example the 132,134 nations, the 15,958 regions, or the arguably more relevant 98 “UN Resolutions Throughout [sic] History”. While the 98 resolutions do take up 20 pages the issues are far less robust and from what I’ve seen thus far in the game take up only a few lines, that along with whatever header would accompany it would allow for a much greater number of issues per page when compared to the resolutions.

Furthermore the NationState owner would have a history with the information and be able to navigate through it far more concisely than one would the nation, regions, and “UN Resolutions Throughout [sic] History” lists, especially if the information was sorted in some fashion relating to the real world date. Besides if you were unwilling or unable to wade through the wealth of information this would provide, you would not have to.

If you have taken no part in designing or implementing of this game how do you know what is feasible? The results of the legislation obviously have to be recorded so that they can affect your nation, as such how less feasible would it be for these results to be accessible for the user. Granted it would take more resources, but an infeasible amount? I find that doubtful. But like you said, “It's easy to think such things when you've only been here a couple of days.” :rolleyes:

you want to know what laws you passed? write them in word pad

this has been sujested and denied once or twice a month sence i started to play ns

This isn't going to happen.

From your nation's data in the Centre, I can see that you've received [ '8', '1', '15' ]. Just three, not too bad, but that doesn't show how you picked; double the length for that information ('1' = Option one; '2' = Option two; etc.).

Now, for my nation, we get a much larger block:

[ '7', '6', '30', '5', '35', '2', '14', '3', '21', '31', '34', '13', '33', '27', '16', '28', '10', '24', '17', '20', '22', '8', '0', '23', '42', '26', '55', '54', '56', '50', '1', '39', '47', '38', '57', '59', '45', '37', '64', '60', '51', '66', '36', '61', '49', '25', '29', '63', '58', '62', '68', '41', '71', '75', '69', '77', '76', '43', '53', '82', '81', '84', '85', '86', '88', '89', '46', '90', '93', '96', '95', '91', '97', '98', '78', '100', '102', '101', '104', '105', '106', '107', '109', '111', '115', '114', '112', '103', '116', '118', '119', '121', '122', '126', '130', '131', '124', '132', '143', '142', '140', '136', '138', '147', '145', '148', '150', '154', '155', '156', '159', '161', '162', '163', '164', '166', '167', '168', '170', '174', '83', '73' ].

This also eliminates duplicates, as well as issues I've dismissed. Again, double the length for how I chose. Everybody gets issue '0' to start with, and I most certainly did make a choice on it, so this isn't even a complete list. Representing via number would take up the least amount of space, but be horribly inconvenient to read, much less translate to useable information.

Also note that this is just issue numbers. Imagine how much longer it would be to list every title. Then add dismissed issues, duplicate issues and choices.

'Evil Woody Thoughts' is new enough that the game recorded his date of creation; specifically: 209 days ago. At 2 issues/day, that's 418 data points. 836 if you want how he decided. Again, this is just numbers for one, slightly larger than average, nation.

Now, multiply it by the 130,000 some-odd nations in the game.

Next, imagine how much longer the updates would take to update these massive lists.

Oh, and the fact that since this information wasn't recorded, it's already lost for many nations.

If you really want to have a log of every issue you've received and how you decided, feel free to open up Notepad and do a little copy/paste action. There's no compelling reason to add this to the game.

Finally, referencing the UN Resolution sticky doesn't support your position in the slightest. That sticky was created and is maintained by a player, entirely of his own volition. The only thing the Mods did was grant it a sticky. We don't update it, nor do we ever plan to. What you are suggesting is to recode the game itself, something that we do not plan to do.

Simply because my nation has only been active for a few days does not mean I have failed to consider that nations here for quite some time would have a rather extensive list. In fact that is why I would like such an “excessive” list, so that when my nation is one, two, three years old I can go back and see what laws I enacted during my first days, months, years on the game, as well as see what laws have been mitigated or repealed by other more recent ones.

Besides your challenges have little merit, first off I said, “I would like to see a longer description for each nation state as well as a complete list of enacted laws and/or a complete legislation history.” The wording clearly implies two separate requests. First off I ask for a “longer description.” In which I purposely use a subjective term that leaves room for interpretation open to the moderators and game designers so that they can enact it (if they choose to do so) as they see fit. I then go on to ask for a separate unabridged list of enacted laws. Thus mature nations would not have descriptions that would go on for pages they would have a “longer” description and a separate page with the legislation history on it.

Much data is already put forth for the user to sift through and much of that data the user has no history with, for example the 132,134 nations, the 15,958 regions, or the arguably more relevant 98 “UN Resolutions Throughout [sic] History”. While the 98 resolutions do take up 20 pages the issues are far less robust and from what I’ve seen thus far in the game take up only a few lines, that along with whatever header would accompany it would allow for a much greater number of issues per page when compared to the resolutions.

Furthermore the NationState owner would have a history with the information and be able to navigate through it far more concisely than one would the nation, regions, and “UN Resolutions Throughout [sic] History” lists, especially if the information was sorted in some fashion relating to the real world date. Besides if you were unwilling or unable to wade through the wealth of information this would provide, you would not have to.

If you have taken no part in designing or implementing of this game how do you know what is feasible? The results of the legislation obviously have to be recorded so that they can affect your nation, as such how less feasible would it be for these results to be accessible for the user. Granted it would take more resources, but an infeasible amount? I find that doubtful. But like you said, “It's easy to think such things when you've only been here a couple of days.” :rolleyes:

Sorry, I missed the "or." It's 5 in the morning here. :rolleyes: A longer national description, such as an extra paragraph or two, would meet with my support, but, as RTW pointed out, if you want to keep tabs on legislation, nothing is keeping you from recording your own records. I stand by my point that implementing your second request on a scale of a million nations would be impractical. The servers for this game/the forums (mostly the latter, I'll admit, but I do have occasional problems getting into NS itself) are on the fritz often enough as it is, and this would place an additional burden on the game servers.

Something I failed to bring up: For a nation such as mine, how is the game going to dig up six months of archival records that don't exist? The short answer: it won't. And as far as cumulative effects on stats, I believe the game keeps a running tally of stats but not the issues (excepting the five or so most recent) behind them, so it would use the existing stats, not previous issue resolutions, in calculating the effects of your decision.

Basically, pre-existing (i.e. yesterday's) stats+effects of last issue resolved=new stats

not cumulative previous legislation+effects of recent legislation=stats

But I don't code the game, so the last few lines were just crackpot theories on my part. And I really need to go to bed.

Edit: Sorry Hack if I duped some of your points; we were typing at the same time. :)

'Evil Woody Thoughts' is new enough that the game recorded his date of creation; specifically: 209 days ago.

Hey, thanks for that info Hack! I've been looking for that myself, and I'm too lazy to calculate it from the day my Jolt account was created! :) :p

Finally, referencing the UN Resolution sticky doesn't support your position in the slightest. That sticky was created and is maintained by a player, entirely of his own volition. The only thing the Mods did was grant it a sticky. We don't update it, nor do we ever plan to. What you are suggesting is to recode the game itself, something that we do not plan to do.Crap, I knew I forgot to do something ...

Furthermore the NationState owner would have a history with the information and be able to navigate through it far more concisely than one would the nation, regions, and “UN Resolutions Throughout [sic] History” lists, especially if the information was sorted in some fashion relating to the real world date. Besides if you were unwilling or unable to wade through the wealth of information this would provide, you would not have to.


It is a lot of work to organize many of these things, however, it is possible to go through and record your own nation's votes in a public place:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=344311

That thread includes a list of all the adopted and failed resolutions, in chronological order, along with the new numbering system that was adopted in late 2004. There is a blank form that you can copy and paste into your own post, and then I'll update the index to point to your nation. I update the ballot about twice a month.

As for keeping track of your nation's laws, many players have written their own constitutions or newspapers to talk about the laws in their nations. If you want to keep track of daily issues, I suggest making a spreadsheet and writing the issue number and option number each day. If you do choose to do this, please write your three main stats and tax rate and see how they change based on the issues, because I've LOVE to get my hands on this sort of information. Curiousity on my part! :)

At the International Democratic Union (IDU) forum, Groot Gouda and myself have been tracking the Top 10 Lists for the IDU since early Fall 2004.

http://s4.invisionfree.com/The_IDU/index.php?showforum=23

(I hope that link works ... for some reason invision doesn't like it when I'm on NS at the same time and spits out very odd looking links.)

Anyways, my suggestion is that you could do something like what we've done for your region. It isn't really keeping track of the "laws", but it does allow you to go back and see how your nation has changed relative to your allies (whom may share your political views).

For example:
http://s4.invisionfree.com/The_IDU/index.php?showtopic=247

My own publishing industry went down relative to the other nations. Since these are the players with whom I actually interact with, this is all that matters to me. While some of the tech rankings we ignore, others we (as a group) tend to follow. (Interestingly we seem to feel the political apathy, nudest, and crime ranks are valid -- I guess that means we are on par with the many of the rest of the NationStates players.) ;)

Thank you all for your in depth explanations as to why the comprehensive legislative list would be impossible. I will take up your suggestions and simply write up my own list. And thank you Evil Woody Thoughts for clarifying your positions. I understand posting very early in the morning. ;)

I do however still request that the description be made longer, which I imagine could happen without being retroactive. Though if this would also require a rewrite of the game simply ignore me. As I am just trying to bring ideas to a game I already find most enjoyable and not trying to waste the moderators’ time.

If you want a longer description, it's best to make it up yourself and post it either on the forums or on the NS Wiki*.

*Link in my signature

You can't please all the people all the time with this game. For everyone who wants an exhaustive list of laws and details about a country, there is someone who wants less detail. For everyone who admires the extraordinary detail that goes into the longest factbooks, there is someone who thinks spending that much time on a computer game is a pathetic waste of time.

With those things in mind, among others, I this game strikes the best possible balance. It's not going to please everyone, but it gives enough information for the person who wants the basics and it gives a good starting point to the people who want to get creative.

"It's not going to please everyone, but it gives enough information for the person who wants the basics and it gives a good starting point to the people who want to get creative."

Good point.

... or on the NS Wiki*
I'd like to point out to anyone wishing to copy their daily voting record to NSwiki that the wiki community (and admin) prefers that you don't. It's a great place for a detailed national description, and you can really go nuts defining your nation in extraordinary complexity ... but each time you save a page, a complete history of prior changes is maintained. Consequently, daily updates to issues or population or whatnot are considered spamming the wiki.

Keep a spreadsheet of issue choices and UN votes, and codify it into some sort of national law if you so desire. Post updates on such changes to the wiki no more than once a month or so. Ultimately, you're likely to be the only one interested in your actual national changes, so you keep track of it, ok?

User:Frisbeeteria (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/User:Frisbeeteria) (talk) (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Frisbeeteria)
NSwiki Sysop

And during inactive periods they clutter up the Recent Changes page as well.

Goobergunch (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/User:Goobergunch)|? (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Goobergunch)
NSwiki Founder

Hey, thanks for that info Hack! I've been looking for that myself, and I'm too lazy to calculate it from the day my Jolt account was created! :) :p

It's in your nation's XML feed ;)

I'd like to point out to anyone wishing to copy their daily voting record to NSwiki that the wiki community (and admin) prefers that you don't. It's a great place for a detailed national description, and you can really go nuts defining your nation in extraordinary complexity ... but each time you save a page, a complete history of prior changes is maintained. Consequently, daily updates to issues or population or whatnot are considered spamming the wiki.

Keep a spreadsheet of issue choices and UN votes, and codify it into some sort of national law if you so desire. Post updates on such changes to the wiki no more than once a month or so. Ultimately, you're likely to be the only one interested in your actual national changes, so you keep track of it, ok?

User:Frisbeeteria (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/User:Frisbeeteria) (talk) (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Frisbeeteria)
NSwiki Sysop

I wasn't talking about the vote record, just the description.

It's in your nation's XML feed ;)

And because I'm not a technophile, I have no idea how to access this :rolleyes:

There you go:

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/nationdata.cgi/nation=Evil%20Woody%20Thoughts


~ GMB

And, the region XML feed is of course just this (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/regiondata.cgi?region=the_rejected_realms) !

There you go:

http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/nationdata.cgi/nation=Evil%20Woody%20Thoughts


~ GMB

Sweet! Thanks. :)

I wasn't talking about the vote record, just the description.

Yeah, your post was fine. We just get a little paranoid that people will get ideas that have proven annoying in the past.

Goobergunch (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/User:Goobergunch)|? (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/User_talk:Goobergunch)
NSwiki Founder

I think a complete list of enacted laws is preposterous. However, I wouldn't mind seeing a third "Create a Nation" page that allows you to write a history of your nation and/or a geographic description. (i.e. Randomnation was founded in 1726 by a group of colonists from another region…Randomnation is a large mountainous nation, landlocked, but with the major Lake Lac dividing it in two)