NationStates Jolt Archive

http://members.fortunecity.com/thracetailteann/html/gnp.html

and

http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php

Those are the two most popular ones I am seeing. Now, mods, tell us, please.. which one is more realistic? And who created Pipian, does anyone know? I would like to know how it calculates it's figures exactly because a large number of people are 'ignorant' to other vairous socio-economic policies that would be able to be implemented.

In my personal opinion, Pipian is more realistic.. but I want a Mod to rule on this and settle this.. since it can cause severe problems in RP's.

(Edit: I'm sorry if is in the wrong place, but logically this seems to be a 'technical' issue.. as it does seem technical)

I dont speak for them but I dont think the Mods will give a ruling on this. In my limited experience they tend to let RP alone to rule itself.

http://members.fortunecity.com/thracetailteann/html/gnp.html

and

http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php

Those are the two most popular ones I am seeing. Now, mods, tell us, please.. which one is more realistic? And who created Pipian, does anyone know? I would like to know how it calculates it's figures exactly because a large number of people are 'ignorant' to other vairous socio-economic policies that would be able to be implemented.

In my personal opinion, Pipian is more realistic.. but I want a Mod to rule on this and settle this.. since it can cause severe problems in RP's.

(Edit: I'm sorry if is in the wrong place, but logically this seems to be a 'technical' issue.. as it does seem technical)
I don't use pipian as it is the most unrealistic of the two.
One it uses civil rights which have absolutely nothing to do with your economy.
Two it ignores your tax rate.
Of course, Pipian is the most realistic if your one of those leftist ideologues from the US who believe that ideology is the most important determinant of life. But if you take an economics course, you will learn that the Pipian calculator is based on false premises.

The Pipian also ignores things like unemployment. The lowest unemployment rate you can have is 5%.
Not to mention all the people who aren't included in the unemployment rate but can't work either because they don't want to or they are disabled or too old to work.
In reality, most nations spend more on welfare and social security these days than they do on war cause of their large senior citizen populations.

The Pipian also ignores things like unemployment. The lowest unemployment rate you can have is 5%.
Not to mention all the people who aren't included in the unemployment rate but can't work either because they don't want to or they are disabled or too old to work.
In reality, most nations spend more on welfare and social security these days than they do on war cause of their large senior citizen populations.

The Pipian also ignores things like unemployment. The lowest unemployment rate you can have is 5%.
Not to mention all the people who aren't included in the unemployment rate but can't work either because they don't want to or they are disabled or too old to work.
In reality, most nations spend more on welfare and social security these days than they do on war cause of their large senior citizen populations.

The Pipian also ignores things like unemployment. The lowest unemployment rate you can have is 5%.
Not to mention all the people who aren't included in the unemployment rate but can't work either because they don't want to or they are disabled or too old to work.
In reality, most nations spend more on welfare and social security these days than they do on war cause of their large senior citizen populations.
[OOC: I think Pipian is more unrealistic looking at the military budget alone. In Pipian, my military budget hovers in the $10 billion territory... with the key word being HOVERING because there are some fluctuations that seem to have no rhyme or reason to them. It also seems to ignore the factors that are built into your country by the game itself. In addition, it hasn't increased as sharply as my population has.

As for the other method, it's imperfect in the sense that it relies solely on user input for things such as economic level and government type rather than accessing the information from the game itself, which seems to be Pipian's advantage. However, it seems to take into account a wider variety of factors than does Pipian, so it would seem to be more realistic than Pipian's. Of course, having a nearly $17 billion defense budget is more attractive to me than having one that at times barely scratches $10 billion. But if my economy starts going down the tubes, you can bet I'll hesitate before putting military build ups before the welfare of my own people!

I've said before that I believe Pipian is a good general guide to the amount of spending your government can allocate toward the military. I believe that perhaps the reality may fall somewhere in the middle (in other words, perhaps there's a level between the Pipian calculator and this other one that is more accurate).]

Well, see the thing is, Pipian doesn't base it off of Civil Rights alone. Civil rights -does- have an effect on your economy. No matter what you say. A happier populace generally produces more than an unhappy one, and it will be of better quality too. Not to mention, the other.. namely Thrace, bases it's decisions -soley- off of Income Tax. While it may be the only game apointed method, it most definatly is not the only way to measure economy. And also, when you do military budgets with Thrace, it gives a large number difference between Pipian and itself. Take Credonia for example. Right now, at his heightened state, his Military budget is 35 percent of his national budget. Thrace gives him just about 11 trillion dollars in defense spending, whereas Pipian gives him only 4. He only has a Powerhouse economy..

This question stands, if the mods wont answer the previous (I've noticed, however, that in the stickies Pipian is the only one suggested..) who made Pipian?

Well, see the thing is, Pipian doesn't base it off of Civil Rights alone. Civil rights -does- have an effect on your economy. No matter what you say. A happier populace generally produces more than an unhappy one, and it will be of better quality too. Not to mention, the other.. namely Thrace, bases it's decisions -soley- off of Income Tax. While it may be the only game apointed method, it most definatly is not the only way to measure economy. And also, when you do military budgets with Thrace, it gives a large number difference between Pipian and itself. Take Credonia for example. Right now, at his heightened state, his Military budget is 35 percent of his national budget. Thrace gives him just about 11 trillion dollars in defense spending, whereas Pipian gives him only 4. He only has a Powerhouse economy..

This question stands, if the mods wont answer the previous (I've noticed, however, that in the stickies Pipian is the only one suggested..) who made Pipian?

Not to mention the fact that I role-play as a corporate ran state. I don't want to tax my people. That puts limits on what they can spend on my products which I sell to the people. Doujinshi Corporation is basically a monopoly.. controlling most of the market, but there is some inport/exports. Taxes are low for a reason. I'd prefer them to be nonexistant. The thing about Thrace, it doesn't take into account the "Type" of government you have (as far as I can tell..) I have a Compulsory Consumerist State. With next to none/no income tax, Thrace gives me no money at all.. when in reality I would have abou the same amount any other Frightening econo. would.

Not to mention the fact that I role-play as a corporate ran state. I don't want to tax my people. That puts limits on what they can spend on my products which I sell to the people. Doujinshi Corporation is basically a monopoly.. controlling most of the market, but there is some inport/exports. Taxes are low for a reason. I'd prefer them to be nonexistant. The thing about Thrace, it doesn't take into account the "Type" of government you have (as far as I can tell..) I have a Compulsory Consumerist State. With next to none/no income tax, Thrace gives me no money at all.. when in reality I would have abou the same amount any other Frightening econo. would.

Government would have little effect on your income. Example: Everyone always believed that all capitalist nations make more money than communist nations. However, the only capitalist nation making more money than, say, China, is the United States.
Taxes, as you already noted, aren't the only factors in determining the economy. I named a few. Another factor is the availability of private investment funding. Which in your case, would the engine the drives your nations economy if you have no taxes. But you would still have fees. Let alone that no nation has absolutely no taxes. There are only places with no income tax but everywhere, there are sales taxes, corporate taxes, property taxes, inheritance taxes etc. In NS the only tax taken into account is the income tax.
Nevada has no income tax but they are doing just fine in providing services to their people.
Also the size of your national marketplace plays a role in how strong your economy is also. America currently has the biggest marketplace in the world. Hence, Americans have the worlds strongest economy.
Where the marketplace consists of things such as yard sales, you will have tendency to see very weak economies. Where as where you a wide diversity of goods and services available for consumption, you will tend to see the opposite. Therefore it is not the economic system that matters but the size of the marketplace and what regulations are imposed on it by government.

Yes, well look at this.

1.683898 trillion - National Budget
0.252584 trillion - Military Budget

That is from Thrace..

Doujin Gross Domestic Product

Population: 695,000,000
Civil Rights: Very Good
Economy: Frightening
GDP per Capita: $35,000
GDP: $24,325,000,000,000
National Budget: $13,019,907,600,000

Percentage of GDP Spent on Defense: 8.03%
Percentage of Budget Spent on Defense: 15%
Military Budget: $1,952,986,140,000

http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.php?nation=Doujin&defenseprovided=1&defense=15&militarybudget=1

That is from Pipian. Now you tell me how that would compete against other people with 100% tax rates (which would give them almost 0 economy as no one would have money to buy anything) with 11 trillion at 35% tax rate? (I'm referring to Credonia)

The mods don't endorse any GDP calculator. It's a role-play thing, work it out with whomever you're interacting with.

Not to mention the fact that I role-play as a corporate ran state.

In which case, you will also need to factor in your profit and loss account. Obviously, my calculator is fairly useless to you for RP purposes. I think we discussed this before, but I forgot that you were a corporate state.

Though income tax and sales tax (if you look at the code, I've included a sales tax, albeit imperfect) are not the only indicator of economy, they are the best indicator of your budget. I don't mind Pipian, but most governments do collect income through taxes, and to ignore them is a greater error than to over-emphasise them.

For most RP purposes, those two calculators will give you a good estimate, especially if both players agree on one to use.

Can anyone post a link to Pipian's code? I read it before, but I'd like to see how exactly it calculates your budget.

Well, see the thing is, Pipian doesn't base it off of Civil Rights alone. Civil rights -does- have an effect on your economy. No matter what you say.

So you think an All-Consuming Economy with good civil rights is better than a Frightening Economy with no civil rights? That's absurd.

Civil rights don't necessarily make people happy, and happy people are not necessarily the most productive. Civil Rights weren't too fantastic under Stalin, but the Soviet Union under his rule in the 1930s experienced one of the fastest periods of economic growth in history.

If you give people too many civil rights, they slack off. If you break out the whips and chains, they work like bastards.

I personally don't like the Pipian calculator.

And, it is nothing but the extreme of arrogance to justify your arguments with the phrase 'No matter what you say', no matter what you say. :P


Also, I'm not too fond of the way the other calculator uses government category in the calculations. My GNP is actually lower now that I have a Frightening economy and Compulsory consumerist state, than it was when I had an All-Consuming economy and Iron Fist Consumerists.

I don't use pipian as it is the most unrealistic of the two.
One it uses civil rights which have absolutely nothing to do with your economy.
Two it ignores your tax rate.
Of course, Pipian is the most realistic if your one of those leftist ideologues from the US who believe that ideology is the most important determinant of life. But if you take an economics course, you will learn that the Pipian calculator is based on false premises.
Wha-? I'm a "leftist idealouge" and have those same problems that you do. Actually those are part of the same problem. It uses civil rights to determine tax rate nstead of tax rate to determine tax rate.

It also exagerates the economy ratings immensely. This is fine if it were just as a parody like the rest of the game, by RP is supposed to be realistic is it not? To ive you an example. When I was a 500 million+ nation with an imploded economy and 100% tax rate, it said that I had a fraction of the buget of a 50 million nation with a Good economy and a 5% tax rate.

Personally, I like The Damned People's system the best. Perhaps I should figure out how to turn it into a calculator.

Well, see the thing is, Pipian doesn't base it off of Civil Rights alone. Civil rights -does- have an effect on your economy. No matter what you say.

So you think an All-Consuming Economy with good civil rights is better than a Frightening Economy with no civil rights? That's absurd.

Civil rights don't necessarily make people happy, and happy people are not necessarily the most productive. Civil Rights weren't too fantastic under Stalin, but the Soviet Union under his rule in the 1930s experienced one of the fastest periods of economic growth in history.

If you give people too many civil rights, they slack off. If you break out the whips and chains, they work like bastards.

I personally don't like the Pipian calculator.

And, it is nothing but the extreme of arrogance to justify your arguments with the phrase 'No matter what you say', no matter what you say. :P


Also, I'm not too fond of the way the other calculator uses government category in the calculations. My GNP is actually lower now that I have a Frightening economy and Compulsory consumerist state, than it was when I had an All-Consuming economy and Iron Fist Consumerists.

Now come on, Nimzonia.. look at the quality of the stuff the Soviet union produced. It was a joke :P When people couldn't produce the amount they were supposed to.. they lied. They made the paper trail, saying there was that many.. it was that good... but in reality.. they weren't that good, and there wasn't that many... meh, I wanna see Thrace and the person who wrote Pipian get together and work another calc out that is better than the two :P

Now come on, Nimzonia.. look at the quality of the stuff the Soviet union produced. It was a joke :P When people couldn't produce the amount they were supposed to.. they lied. They made the paper trail, saying there was that many.. it was that good... but in reality.. they weren't that good, and there wasn't that many... meh, I wanna see Thrace and the person who wrote Pipian get together and work another calc out that is better than the two :P

Yes, the T-34 tank was an attrociously poor piece of kit. And as for the AK-47 and RPG-7, who'd be seen dead using them? :D Those crazy russian engineers, what were they thinking, slacking off like that...

The fact is, the poor reputation of soviet equipment is based solely on a few cases, such as their nuclear submarines, that they rushed the development of in order to keep up with the west (not because the workers were slacking off), and a great deal of US propaganda. If Soviet equipment really was so poor, they wouldn't have put the first man in space; nor would they hold the space endurance records. They wouldn't have been enough of a threat to necessitate a cold war.

Western equipment has been equally prone to failure, even with their superior civil rights. The US space program, for example, suffered similar failures (like that crew burning to death when their high-oxygen air caused a fire) as the USSR. Comet, the first commercial jet airliner, suffered so many catastrophic failures, that it was grounded for years, then completely cancelled.

People lie about how much they've done, and slack off when they have civil rights too - anyone stuck in a dead-end job ends up doing it really half-assed. Nobody likes working. Countries with low civil rights motivate people through other means, such as threatened punishment, or fanatical patriotism.

It's worth noting, that the nations with the highest suicide rates in the world, have good civil rights and strong or growing economies - Norway, and Finland, and such like. And Japan.

I don't think it's worth getting into a debate about civil rights on the tech forum, but the economy value of your country should already take that into account. The idea of a thriving economy with high civil rights being better off than an All-consuming economy with low civil rights, is just silly. The same issues that decide your civil rights, decide your economy value. Therefore, civil rights should not come into the equation when calculating GNP, because they have already been considered in reaching your current economy value.

They should have. You don't know wether they (nationstates) includes that :P And I find it incredibly hard to believe that because I have a 3% income tax I have no money yet they way I RP my nation -should- give me tons of money.. I still want pipian and thrace to get together and make something :P

They should have. You don't know wether they (nationstates) includes that :P And I find it incredibly hard to believe that because I have a 3% income tax I have no money yet they way I RP my nation -should- give me tons of money.. I still want pipian and thrace to get together and make something :P

I have so far answered all my nation's issues to provide maximum economical benefit, with little regard to civil rights. This is why I have a frightening economy, and civil rights that fluctuate between 'below-average' and 'rare'. I find it incredibly hard to believe that Nimzonia should have no money, just because I rule with an iron fist. Not that I ever buy anything anyway, being more into character RP, but for the sake of argument.

And having a 3% income tax rate will drastically reduce the amount of money your government will have to spend compared to nations with higher tax rates. Maybe you should just raise income taxes. I think income tax should be taken to represent all of taxes; any other statistics you want to make up, are GODMODed, to put it bluntly, and there's not much to stop anyone else from making them up too.

In short, I don't see why we should have to accept as standard a contrived calculator designed just so that you personally can have lots of money to spend on ships.