NationStates Jolt Archive

Binding rules are here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=5812823&postcount=59

Ok, I have received many requests for rulings on which scripts are legal, and which aren't. I am posting my proposed guidelines here for public comment. I want your input and will consider it before making my final rulings.

This is only a draft, and non-binding


Any script that automatically sends Telegrams (with the sole exception of sending 1 reply to a received telegram) is illegal.
Any script that automatically posts regional messages is illegal.
Any script that accesses the forums is illegal.
Any script that kicks or bans nations from a region is illegal (unless controlled by the region's founder).
Any script that accesses the NationStates server more often than every 5 minutes is illegal.
Any Game Moderator, Admin, or Tech Modling may judge a script to be legal or illegal, separate from the above guidelines.


A few notes.

Rule 1 allows you to have an automated reply message from your Nation, but it can only be a single response. This will prevent spam.
Rule 4 is waived for founders.
I will immediately rule all region hopping scripts (such as The NationStates Bunny uses) to be exempt from Rule 5, PROVIDED that they are used within reason.


http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

Sal: Looks good. Rule 4 would mean delegates in regions without founders can't use a script (like Francos did?)

Rule 4 only prohibits the script from kicking or banning nations. The script may do pretty much anything not specifically listed here. (And I still have no evidence that FS was using scripts).

Hmm, looking at this more makes me realize that #5 will have to be rewritten to be clearer (either that or more broad and open to mod interpretation).

Just curious, but why not outlaw the bunny? What purpose does it serve?

Greetings to All and Sundry,

I would say that the Founder rule (Number 4) would not be available for the Delegate Francos, since the Pacific Regions are Nation Spawning game constructs; despite the way some view such Regions.

I really like the rule preventing scripts to be used to prevent annoying recruiting telegrams from spamming the Civic HQ Board.

I would agree with Nothingg, that spy scripts, such as the Nation States Bunny should be banned. Their main use of such units is to detect password protection for Invader Groups and unnecessarily spam the Comings and Goings Record for Regions.

Grande Elector Bruce

The Green and Pleasant Dominion of The Bruce

I don't think Francos Spain uses a script... just one hell of a fast typer... :P

Well I think its a good idea. Im founder of mercia the next generation (under playa chk is back) And i am also the nationstates shark....Personally its a good idea.
Sepcially only the founder can kick people out...Cause if some one invaded you and you were on vacation they couldve kicked everyone out before and now they wont be able too :)

Perhaps this would create too much work, as I don't know how many scripts are currently in play, but why not require that all scripts be submitted for review to Tech Modling/Admin (or their designee), prior to use? I guess I'm old-fashioned, or perhaps it's the professor in me coming out, but the idea that someone would deploy unauthorized scripts in a game to which they have no legal claim is a little unsettling.

but, if only founders could ban people, what about the older regions like the Pacific, LUE, South Pacific, etc, would they then have 2 put up with troublesome nations and not be able 2 ban them? i like all of the proposed rules, except #4, since if you ruled over a large region, and there was no founder, and someone was trying to invade constantly, and it would be very tedious and time consuming to search through all nations in that region to find the invaders, that i say delegates should be allowed to use scripts that automatically ban ppl from regions. anyway, that's just my 2 cents.

Looks good. Region-hopping scripts are probably OK if they are used by one player at a time every now and then, but if people simultaneously send half a dozen puppets on a journey, that's automated Regional Happenings spamming. It's that sort of scenario which should be legislated against.

Regarding rule no. 1:

I think it should be legal for the founder/delegate to use a telegram script if it is to send out the regional password. This might actually encourage some invaders to do so.

Argh double post.

Any script that automatically sends Telegrams (with the sole exception of sending 1 reply to a received telegram) is illegal.

I love this idea. It would make things much easier for the entire fourth of the NS playing population who live in the Pacifics or RR. First of all, it would stop players who send auto-recruiting messages to us. Secondly, it would put the tech-savvy and non-tech-savvy on an even playing field when it comes to the much-coveted Delegacies of these regions. It gets tiring to compete with someone who endorsement-swaps at an inhuman rate.


Any script that automatically posts regional messages is illegal.

This also makes sense. I've seen plenty of players who post the exact same message (advertising, propaganda) in a region over and over again, posting new ones as soon as the old is cleared. It's annoying as hell, often a script, and not technically spam.


Any script that accesses the forums is illegal.

The only purpose of a forum script that I can think of is to spam, and if such a rule adds another black mark to the record of such players, good.


Any script that kicks or bans nations from a region is illegal (unless controlled by the region's founder).

Francos Spain may not use a script, but others like him would. This might provide a counter to them.

Regarding rule no. 1:

I think it should be legal for the founder/delegate to use a telegram script if it is to send out the regional password. This might actually encourage some invaders to do so.I think thats a good point.

My current thoughts.


I'm thinking about allowing scripts to access the server much faster (as in 1 request every 5 seconds).
I am NOT planning on allowing delegates to use banning scripts.
The Bruce, if you notice, rule 4 Prohibits FS from using scripts in that way.
If a region hopper abuses their privilages, they will still be punished.
I will be willing to certify scripts as legal that would otherwise be banned upon individual review. Examples of this are region hopping scripts, and possibly scripts to send out passwords.

Why can't password-telegramming scripts be made fully legal?
I would imagine a 'case-by-case' system would generate a lot of work for mods, such as pawing through telegram inboxes etc.
If people don't want to receive the telegrams, there's always the ignore function now.

I may rule that they, as a catagory, are legal, I'm just not going to build that directly into the guidelines at the moment. I think that they will be ruled as a special case, just like the region hopping scripts.

Ok :D

btw: You chose the Rejected Realms over Europe? :o :x

Perhaps this would create too much work, as I don't know how many scripts are currently in play, but why not require that all scripts be submitted for review to Tech Modling/Admin (or their designee), prior to use? I guess I'm old-fashioned, or perhaps it's the professor in me coming out, but the idea that someone would deploy unauthorized scripts in a game to which they have no legal claim is a little unsettling.

I considered this, but it is, unfortunately, unenforcible. Thus I must depend primarily on people abiding by the rules of their own free will, and specifically addressing violations as I find them (or they are reported to me).

Perhaps this would create too much work, as I don't know how many scripts are currently in play, but why not require that all scripts be submitted for review to Tech Modling/Admin (or their designee), prior to use? I guess I'm old-fashioned, or perhaps it's the professor in me coming out, but the idea that someone would deploy unauthorized scripts in a game to which they have no legal claim is a little unsettling.

I considered this, but it is, unfortunately, unenforcible. Thus I must depend primarily on people abiding by the rules of their own free will, and specifically addressing violations as I find them (or they are reported to me).

P.S. Yeah, the RR has been my home since the very beginning. I originally moved there to blend in and not really be noticed. My profile has since increased, but I stay there because it's friendly and has become the home region for this nation (plus, it helps to keep down the spam, which they also have troubles with).

5. Any script that accesses the NationStates server more often than every 5 minutes is illegal.

What does an access constitute here? One request, or running the script? (or: one task?) For a script that calculates a region census from the XML feed, the following happens (at least, the way I implemented it) :
- region XML is pulled
- <NATION> tag is parsed
- nation XML is pulled for each nation residing in the region

I do this for about 40 regions (varrying from 1 to 80 nations in it). With 5 minutes in between single server accesses (simply put: with a pause of 5 minutes in the script for each XML feed pull), the runtime is more than a day easily. With a 5 second delay we're still talking about a runtime of about an hour.

Also, I'm hereby asking for special permission to run a script that pulls the entire list of regionnames, without the time limitation, once every few weeks. Basically, all 780+ or so pages of the regionlist are being pulled. This is to update the data used in Tactical Grace's Regional Directory. At 5 minutes per page this would take over 2.5 days, which is far too long. At 5 seconds it'll still take over an hour.

Please note that this rule has a few consequences:
- a small number of tasks become way too timeconsuming to perform, and they will simply not be done. (you can forget about me ever doing my own NS Census ;) )
- overall a similar amount of data is pulled, but spread out over more time. So it doesn't save a lot of bandwidth, but could prevent peak bandwidth surges due to script use. Is this currently a problem?


Also, my suggestion for a seventh rule:
7. No script may run during the two hours of the major server update.

Ballotonia

Ballotonia, I'm not going to be judging individual scripts yet, and am still considering ways to throttle them, and you comments are noted.

As per limiting them to away from the daily update, I would be opposed to that, but I'm interested in hearing other opinions.

Most of these look good, and, if I do say so, it's about time we had a ruling on scripts. The only one that concerns me is #5. The current NS portal doesn't have many automated scripts in, but it does include an autologin script that sends a page request to the site every 2 seconds. When I start work on v2, there are going to be quite a few more automated functions, effectively running in the background to perform maintenance functions (check nation dates to see if they're near expiring, periodically check and archive telegrams etc.). How is this going to stand with the ruling on #5

I'd also like clarification on how you would define 'access' with regard to the forums, and how automated something needs to be before it's classed as a 'script'. For example, the PNP allows you to login at a single click, but it requires that click to do so, and only really automates the process of feeding in the post variables. If somebody repetitively clicks this button, does that classify as illegal use of a script?

Phoebos, some good points. Since I have a tendancy to review your code, you won't be in especially bad shape.

Definition of Access (for all purposes including throttling) is loading a single URL.

Accessing the forums will be defined as loading any URL beginning with http://www.nationstates.net/forum/.

A script that simply duplicates the actions of a bookmark or something similar (because a program that you are writing happens to work that way) would probably be acceptable. In fact, if you just label it a Bookmark, instead of a script, you might be able to sidestep the problem in that specific instance. A script must contain some degree of brains or automation.

All throttling is based on what the script does, if they user presses a button triggering a script faster than throttling allows, it is not the fault of the script.

Script: Any automated process that passes more than a single request on to the NationStates server. (Excepetions are made for handcrafted WebBrowsers for loading frames or redirection)

5) Any script that loops/iterates through multiple things (such as Nations, Regions, Nationlisting Pages, etc.) must limit itself to 1 iteration per 3 seconds. (A reasonable number of requests may be made at each iteration).


Example:
A script to check the telegrams of all of my nations could load the 3 or so different pages to check the telegrams for each nation as fast as the network would allow, but could not check more than 1 nation every 3 seconds.

Ok, I have received many requests for rulings on which scripts are legal, and which aren't. I am posting my proposed guidelines here for public comment. I want your input and will consider it before making my final rulings.

This is only a draft, and non-binding


Any script that automatically sends Telegrams (with the sole exception of sending 1 reply to a received telegram) is illegal.
Any script that automatically posts regional messages is illegal.
Any script that accesses the forums is illegal.
Any script that kicks or bans nations from a region is illegal (unless controlled by the region's founder).
Any script that accesses the NationStates server more often than every 5 minutes is illegal.
Any Game Moderator, Admin, or Tech Modling may judge a script to be legal or illegal, separate from the above guidelines.


A few notes.

Rule 1 allows you to have an automated reply message from your Nation, but it can only be a single response. This will prevent spam.
Rule 4 is waived for founders.
I will immediately rule all region hopping scripts (such as The NationStates Bunny uses) to be exempt from Rule 5, PROVIDED that they are used within reason.


http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
1. Love, but as Spof pointed out, maybe an exception for sending regional PWs?
2. Like, but won't stop annoying n00b regios who do it by hand, but pay less attention to the regions that they are posting in than the scripts.
3. Don't get.
4. Definitely. Pease do not change this rule to accomodate founderless regions though.
5. What is meant by "within reason"? Is time between hops, data being gathered, or both being limited?
6. Good disclaimer clause.

:D

since i've got no idea what scripts are, i'm gonna have to ask about them and say "good job" in advance.

Umm Sal, what will the rulingon nation creation scripts be?

I currently create nations by hand, and this gets tiring when I'm creating like a dozen nations at a time.

I was thinking about creating a nation-making script whereby I entered the nation settings the way that I intended to answer the questions, and the region that I want to move to for when I'm creating a set of nations.

Would this be legal, assuming that I was not going to be using the puppets for something illegal or moving them into a region to annoy the delegate?

This would be especially useful for experiment regions, especially ones on populationgrowh where you want them to be created as close together as humanly possible.

Also nation loggin scripts(that also checked and answered issues) would be legal as long as they obeyed the query rule right?

Hmm, I'm really glad I put this up for public review.

Qaal, my initial thought is to ban all nation creation scripts. In fact, I have contemplated ways to do that in code on our side. Even if we don't do that, I would support that ban. Once again, specific exceptions might be made.

Yes, nation login scripts and related would all be reasonable as long as they obeyed the query rule. I would note that it would not only throttle how many nations per second (1 nation per 3 sec) but would throttle ALL loops. Thus, also 1 issue addressed per 3 seconds. Just recieving the TGs would count as a single step (it's a single request), and deleting any number of TGs would count as a single step (it's also a single request), but if you wanted to code an autoresponse mechanism, It would have to be limited to 1 reponse per 3 seconds.

An in response to your earlier post:

Thanks, I think that an exception would be made for regional passwords
Better than nothing at least
The forums are unstable enough as it is without being hammered by automated code.
I have no intentions of changing this rule to allow delegates to do this. Founders only.
Within reason would probably be how often (and how large) the traversals are.
I always cover my ass.


Oh, to anyone who deals with NetWorkRadio (that is the right name?), I would be happy to make exceptions for scripts to distribute the news including allowing automated posts, and some other stuff. Just contact me when (or before) the rules go into effect.

P.S. Please note that I have not included punishment guidelines. I dislike them as I feel that each case must be decided upon it's own merits, and I trust the moderators to do so. Needless to say, they could consist of anything from a "Please don't do this again, but no formal warning." Up through and including calls to the ISP and legal authorities.

The rules all look good but I have an issue with the time limitation. Currently I have some scripts that collect region information by gathering all of the nationnames and then iterating through the nations to gather the data. When the script works it can complete a region of 50 nations in about 35 seconds. Of course this is with no delay. Inserting a delay into every loop would slow down the script to about 3 minutes.

These scripts are not run automatically but rather at user request. I would like to see where scripts that are run at user request would be allowed to run full bore. as long as the running time of the script was less than 30 minutes.

As far as automatic scripts, the loop delay of 3 seconds would be good (The only one waiting is a computer) with a delay between kicking off the scripts of at least 1 minute.

Should there be some rule where the IP address of the script server is submitted with an e-mail contact so that administrators of offending scripts can be contacted instead of just shutting off their servers?

Why even have things defined so strictly... there are many ways to make sure that scripts don't overrun the server or bother folks. With most scripts except the stats generators likely serving one of a few functions, basic versions of those could be made accessible as pre-approved downloads. Everything else would have to go through a techie unless it meets some hard restrictions (say, cannot send data to any other user, cannot affect a nation but one's own and is triggering a maximum of 5 server requests per human action), leaving only simple macros available to unapproved use.

Well well well...

A couple of things that may be misconceptions....

1. Retrieving 1 web page is not a single request to the server... especially when you are using frames. Each frame is a separate request. Each image within that the frames is a separate request. Granted, that logically they can be considered one request, but there is no easy way for the server to know that the 40 requests that it just received were for one web page and all the frames and images associated with it.

2. There is no sure fire way to tell if what is accessing the web server is a script. Granted again, if my nation has been moving for 8 hours non stop, that it certainly would be enough circumstantial evidence to convict me.... But, my point is that scripts can spoof any type of web browser they like. They do not report themselves as scripts.

3. I suspect that one reason for banning the use of scripts is designed to reduce the load on the servers? But if the same scripts still run with 3 second delays built in, the server is still under the same load.... just distributed over time. But due to network lag and various other things that cause delays the majority of a scripts time is spent waiting for responses anyway. The data that is download is small! In fact, a script that retrieves data from the servers can reduce the load over downloading the data manually because it generally does not request the images and additional frames that may be part of the larger web page.... Sooo I would suggest that you do not put any limits on scripts that retrieve data.... but rater find some way to discourage the repeated retrieval of unnecessary data. I think it would be fine for a regional delegate/founder or whoever to run a census once a day on his region, but it would be pretty much a waste for him to do it on all of nationstates every 4 hours..... that might create a constant high load that would affect the servers... In other words, you could continue to allow people to use scripts to help enhance their game play, but keep an eye out for flagrant abusers. And if you look at the amount of data that is downloaded in a census for a region, you are probably in the 100K range. Just downloading the regional page would generate that much traffic (again images are the culprit (yes I know that images can be cached)).

4. You do not want to get into the business of code review. You may know php, but there are a dozen other script languages that can be used and I am sure some of them are not nearly as pretty as perl. And what would the purpose be when you cannot tell if it is a script unless it wants to be known.


Anyway, that is my ramblings.

The NationStates Bunny.

Qaal, my initial thought is to ban all nation creation scripts. In fact, I have contemplated ways to do that in code on our side. Even if we don't do that, I would support that ban. Once again, specific exceptions might be made.
I'll ask in advance two questions then:

1. Currently, when the server and my LAN are both working properly, it takes me under two minutes to create a nation of the political leanings that I am aiming for, and move it into the correct region (and even create a region for eack on occasion), and I'm getting quicker. I often leave my computer, or do something else, for what could be a delay in an autoscript, yet I create them manually. How would I prove that I do not create them with autoscripts? Similarly, I often use names very close together when running tests. I could write a script to use different names, and if I had it do it in my normal pattern, there would be no way to tell whether I was using a script riht now (well you can tell now that I'm not since I don't know any languages other than HTML, and QBasic, but that won't be lasting very long{I hope, although tis *is* my father we're talking about, whose going to be teaching me}).

2. Can I get a ruling on this now: Do you think that I will be able to get an exception made to create nations for expriments using a script, rovided that they are not names that no sane person would want for a normal nation (eg "QAWSDT01"-"QAWSDT24"), provided obviously that I contact you or a GM with a brief description before creating each one (when my father teaches me Java that is, I'm still running my experiments the old fashioned way :x , over half a year after he promised to teach me :evil: )?

NS Bunny, you make some good points, especially regarding enforcement.


I realize this, and thus have corrected the throttling to take this into account. I'm still not happy with it at all.
Yeah, I know, we do what we can.
That is the reason for throttling them. By slowing them down, we help to prevent massive hits to the server.
I'm pretty good and learning more. But this doesn't directly apply, see below.


The biggest thing, is that I think that the majority of players are willing to abide by the rules of a game. However, at the moment, there are no rules, and thus no one knows what they can and can't do. By codifying these I think that many people will voluntarily follow them. Also, there is no good way for me to guarentee that the code that I review is the same as what they are executing. Thus, I would request an outline of what the code does, and how fast, and review that.

Qaal,


See comments to The NS Bunny regarding enforcement and compliance.
No rulings yet, sorry. However, I would most likely allow it to people performing experiments such as yourself.

Qaal,


See comments to The NS Bunny regarding enforcement and compliance.
No rulings yet, sorry. However, I would most likely allow it to people performing experiments such as yourself.

I saw. I'm the type of person who always likes to put my two cents in, no matter how annoying it may be to other people. I've been trying to excercise restraint, and I feel have succeded fairly well in things like not responding to threads that only a mod can answer, but I'm still working on it on other things.

Oh well. I certainly hope that it turns out that way.

At any rate, I realized that I've been a bit ingrateful. Thank you, Sal, for taking the time to ask for our input, when I'm sure that you would have much prefered to simply have gone and codified these rules case closed.

I haven't noticed any thing of the sort, Qaal. I posted these guidelines because I knew that I hadn't thought of everything and I wanted more eyes. I value the questions that you are asking as they are helping me to improve the rules.

Thank you.

Very good.

I think setting down reasonable (not draconian!) guidelines will be sufficient. It will give us scripters some room to play, while keeping in mind the limitations of the hardware and network.

I think flagrant violaters will be pointed out by their "neighbors" and after some cursory investigations, they can be warned or banned... depending on the type and frequency of violation.

As far as throttling traffic... your best bet is probably (and you thought of this I am sure) to pick a few pages that are routinely hit by scripts and put a reasonable limit (1 or 2 seconds might be sufficient)... (similar to what you all did to the messages).

Good luck!

The NationStates Bunny

Just checking making a script to send telegrams of World Cup Scores be illeagal?

<snip>

I will be willing to certify scripts as legal that would otherwise be banned upon individual review. Examples of this are region hopping scripts, and possibly scripts to send out passwords.


I think this is the only way you'd be allowed a multiple telegram script, and I somehow can't see one for World Cup scores being made as an exception to the rule. Although perhaps if it was opt in, and you had a short enough response time on removing names if requested...

<snip>

I will be willing to certify scripts as legal that would otherwise be banned upon individual review. Examples of this are region hopping scripts, and possibly scripts to send out passwords.


I think this is the only way you'd be allowed a multiple telegram script, and I somehow can't see one for World Cup scores being made as an exception to the rule. Although perhaps if it was opt in, and you had a short enough response time on removing names if requested...

Actually, for something like this (assuming that it was opt in),I would consider it acceptable, assuming that it didn't trigger too often.

Just to make sure: In the modded version of Phoeboses portal that I made, there is a featuer that allows the user to define a signature (one for each forum), and will automaticaly insert it at the end of a post (provided it isn't there). It is activated when the user hits the "Submit" button on the "Post a Reply" or "New Topic" pages, and it puts the text into the post data before submiting it.
(the exact code is on Phoebos's site)

So: Does this count as a forum-accessing script?

\/ in action \/

-----
The Most Serene People's Republic of Naleth
"Life is a suicide mission"
Shameless Plug for Adelaide (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=display_region/region=Adelaide)
Getting Help Page (http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/index.cgi/page=help)
The Tech FAQ (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81296)

Neat trick. I'll have to check out your code for that.

No, I would not count that as a forum accessing script because the page would be loaded anyway (for the user) in the exact same manner without that code. It does not interact with the forum, but solely a local copy of a page that exists outside of (and for reasons other than) the script).

Neat trick. I'll have to check out your code for that.
It better be neat, it took me forever to figure out how to get it to work :evil:.

No, I would not count that as a forum accessing script because the page would be loaded anyway (for the user) in the exact same manner without that code. It does not interact with the forum, but solely a local copy of a page that exists outside of (and for reasons other than) the script).
K, thanks, I didn't think it would I just wanted to make sure.

I only take issue with rule 6. I agree that a similar rule is necessary, but until there are pages with lists of everything with no page numbers, just a giant list, my scripts have to access each nation/region page in turn. That means that in order to have a realistic processing time they need to request one page in the list directly after another. 5 minutes is unreasonable for that kind of process.

Edit: Oh, and regarding enforcement I think you'll find a lot of scripters are pretty conscientous and want to follow the rules whether or not there's a mod looking over their shoulder.

MrNonchalant, later in the thread I modified it to one iteration through the program (such as 1 region or 1 nation) every 3 seconds.

SalusaSecondus, this is how I plan my script to work. It will copy data out of Excel then TG that info to one nation. It will then pull out more data from Excel and TG it to another nation and so on(For about 92 nations). Is that OK?

Please realize that no formal rulings have been made yet. But, as that would be explicitly opt-in, that would be fine, just don't hammer us too hard, the messages don't have to go out fast.

Salusa: Excellent. Then these guidelines I'm fully in support of.

In fact I think I'll go put a unique User-Agent on my bots so it's easier to track them if necessary.

Salusa: Excellent. Then these guidelines I'm fully in support of.

In fact I think I'll go put a unique User-Agent on my bots so it's easier to track them if necessary.

That would be appreciated.

Guidelines are appreciated, thanks!

Any script that accesses the forums is illegal.
I can see the need for this restriction. I'll go back to archiving threads I'm afraid of disappearing out of sight manually.

My current thoughts.

...
I'm thinking about allowing scripts to access the server much faster (as in 1 request every 5 seconds).
This would be good for me. I use scripts to archive regional happenings during invasions, and when they really heat up 5 minutes are too long. (during the Corinthe invasion, even 1 minute would have been too long, yikes!) When things slow down, I throttle back (so as not to hammer the server), and I don't run them all that often. (Unfortunately, when I do run them is probably when the server is under the most stress, with invasions). I've also, every couple of months, run scripts to survey nations in the south pacific; I'll go and insert delays into those.
Perhaps a weekly limit on script downloads in addition to a rate limit would be appropriate?

I can easily change the user-agent, perhaps we can all put 'nsscript' into our user-agents to make scripts easier to track?

Oh, and for survey type scripts, if legal at all, what would be a good time of day/week to run them?

---P.S.---
Looking back at the archives of the Corinthe invasion, I was downloading the regional page every 11 seconds after 4:00 AM. That proved to be adequate for capturing the posts.

looks good....






PS
I'm not dead yet(just in case anyone noticed my absence)

Salusa: Excellent. Then these guidelines I'm fully in support of.

In fact I think I'll go put a unique User-Agent on my bots so it's easier to track them if necessary.

That would be appreciated.
My latest creation's user-agent is:
[code:1:779abdcc09]
Mozilla/4.0 (compatible; MSIE 6.0;Windows NT 5.0; .NET CLR 1.1.4322; MrNonchalant)
[/code:1:779abdcc09]
And it queried one page every 30 seconds until certain conditions had been met, at which point it accessed another directly after the final 30 second query. It did not telegram, post region messages, access the forums, or eject.

What about using a script to gather data from the XML datafeed?

Techincally if somebody had their site set up to gahter data from the feed for various regions or nations and allowed a search, and then somebody exceded the number of server hits using a search, potentially with a script, would either the site or the user of the site be held accountable (assuming that either was an NS user)?

With XML data feeds generally the best option is to have it's data update periodically to a local database.

MrNonchalant is correct. The best way to do this is to cache the data, however, if you script only grabs once per load, it would be legal.

I'm contemplating throwing out the throttling and just requiring that people be reasonable. If they are unsure, they ask me, and I withhold the right to judge a script to be illegal.

MrNonchalant is correct. The best way to do this is to cache the data, however,

if you script only grabs once per load, it would be legal.

I'm contemplating throwing out the throttling and just requiring that people be reasonable. If they are unsure, they ask me, and I withhold the right to judge a script to be illegal.
But wat if (I'm not sure why one might do this, but it seems to be a possibility) somebody has a search function to find say, the most recent government activity of all ations in a search.

Since I am not particarly fluent in technical lingo, I'm not quite clear what you said for the second half of this sentence. :?

Throttling? :?

I'm pretty sure "throttling" is in refrence to guideline #5, Qaa.

I think the telegram rule should be reworded to say 'unsolicited telegrams.'
That would be useful for regions such as the Pacific Army where often a telegram must be sent out to all nations informing them of something important.

I think the telegram rule should be reworded to say 'unsolicited telegrams.'
That would be useful for regions such as the Pacific Army where often a telegram must be sent out to all nations informing them of something important.
I just hope that this rule gets implimented soon. It looks like Joser is making a last desperate recruitment campaign, so I really can not wait until it is banned.

I think that I may contact Vanquez(who I think is Joser's puppet-master) about it in the mean time though.

Ok, these are now binding (though still up for discussion)


No script may send unsolicited telegrams. (1 reply message is permitted to a received telegram)
No script may post regional messages without permission of founder (or delegate if no founder exists). Edited
No script may access the forums (ie, any page with a URL starting with http://forums.jolt.co.uk/)
No script may kick or ban nations (unless controlled by the region's founder).
Scripts may not be used to endorse or unendorse other nations.
Scripts may not access the server excessively.
No script may create a nation. Edited
No script may create a region. Edited
Any Game Moderator, Admin, or Tech Modling may judge a script to be legal or illegal, separate from the above guidelines.

Have you had a word with Jennivier, Sal? This nation is breaking at least two of those rules.

Suggestion for something to add:

No script may create a region.

Reasoning: sometimes there's a mad rush to be the first to refound a region. Using a script to be the first is IMHO an unfair advantage.
(basically, using a script in any 'the first' race is IMHO unfair. This is just the only case I can think of right now)

Ballotonia

I'm thinking Sal. Could you make no regional board messages without permission of founder, and only if there is no founder delegate has permmission?

There is at least one region which has in the past invaded some of my puppet regions, taken over delegacy, and then invited ther regions to send a representative to the mother region. And then until recently, one of my puppet regions had a delegate who struck me as the type of person who would just say "go ahead" to any who asked.

I'm not sure whether or not I agree with Ballotonia, but here's how easy it was to steal a region for myself recently:
[code:1:eddb52e3c7]C:\php>php -f recreate.php
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
moving...
finished
C:\php>[/code:1:eddb52e3c7]
I was asleep while this ran.

Points taken, rules amended and clarified.

No script may send unsolicited telegrams. (1 reply message is permitted to a received telegram) So, like Myrth brought up, as in the case of the Pacific Army, I recently sent out 170 telegrams by hand after Menelmecar advised me not to script them, but this boundary seems pretty gray. I would say they are solicited because those were all people who had at some point expressly moved into the old region... the reason I ask is because I may be sending them all telegrams again and it would be nice to not do it by hand.



So, Sal, can we look at punitive retroactive action here for disallowing regional creation scripts? As in, can a GM clear out that region so we can have a fair chance of refounding it?

I'm not sure whether or not I agree with Ballotonia, but here's how easy it was to steal a region for myself recently:
[code:1:6e53493cfa]C:\php>php -f recreate.php
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
querying...
moving...
finished
C:\php>[/code:1:6e53493cfa]
I was asleep while this ran.

*UGH* :x

MrNonchalant, don't you realize how unfair it is to use scripts in competitive situations like that? It's putting other players at a horrible disadvantage for not being able to program (which has nothing to do with the game itself). And that comment is coming from someone who ALSO uses scripts, but only for basic data collecting.

Salusa, thank you for ammending the rules in this regard.

Considering MrNonchalant's comment above, and script already in use, perhaps it should be made specific that any use of scripts to compete in any form would be just as unfair? Reading MrNonchalants question in a different thread, it has occured to me it is possible to run attack / defense situations by script as well. This could even go as far as using remotely controlable agents. *SHUDDER*

Ballotonia

MrNonchalant, tell me, how many variables in the PHP source code and configuration files - I assume you're using 4.3.4 or above - did you change in order to change it from a website scripting language to execute this command script?

Also, which environment are you compiling the source in?

I'm using PHP 4.2.3 on a Windows 2000 system with Apache 1.3.27. The command line output is from using php's built-in CLI, which is detailed here (http://www.phpfreaks.com/tutorials/86/0.php).

As for not using scripting in any competitive situation, that's kind of neutering it's capabilities. I'm willing to guess that if the rules become too restrictive people won't bother following them.

As for not using scripting in any competitive situation, that's kind of neutering it's capabilities. I'm willing to guess that if the rules become too restrictive people won't bother following them.

No, it is still useful for maintainance and data gathering. 3rd party apps. TG vacation messages. Noticies when a nation joins (or leaves) a region. Lists of nations with endorsements, etc. They are permitted to do practically any form of data gathering, processing, or analysis. The guidelines are just requiring people to perform the game changing options.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

Any experienced player hardly needs scripts (whatever they are) to do what Francos Spain does. He does not need to have good typing skills either. He just needs a mouse with a back button.

Same for the bunny. I hope they don't outlaw the bunny, as it gives us some idea of open and free regions. The bunny just scales the regions in alpha order and enters regions that have no password, back keys out and enters the next on on the region list. Boring, but effective, especially if scaling the whole list. As long as he does not spam the message boards as quite a few others do, I have no problem with this player.

Would your nation's dossier be considered scripts in a way?

Scripts not outlawed could still make Francos's life easier. I have one in my posession that scans given regions for endorsement amounts. Every evening I run it on Atlantic regions and can from there avoid quite a few "surprise" attacks. With Francos he could set the region to Pacific, the endorsementrs to 15 and click enter, 10 minutes later he'll have a list of everyone breaking that particular NPO law. I've actually run my script on the Pacific as a test, not a single person but NPO senators have more than 15 endorsements. It's eery.

Is it okay to run a script that telegrams the entire region once per day with the password that's just been set? I would be doing this anyway, just not with a script. I'm MrNonchalant by the way, just so I'm not accused of trying to circumvent moderator wrath by using puppets.

I appologize for the delay, it took me a while to notice the new post.

Scripts used to send out the password of a region, to it's natives (and other people if the OPT IN, such as your fellow invaders, if you are an invader),ONCE, upon changing the password, are hereby catagorically ruled LEGAL. HOWEVER, The messages that they send out are still bound by standard rules regarding spam. Thus, if it is judged that an exessive number of telegrams are being sent (which would tie in to the password being changed an excessive number of times) would still be illegal under standard anti-spam measures.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

P.S. A note to any would be scripters here. Please remember that there are anti-spam measures built directly into the telegram engine in the game, so be sure to include a delay in your script, otherwise it won't work.

I am still trying to figure what a script is.

Wouldn't it be best to put more data like the endorsements in the xml feed?
This way all scrips that only gather information could use the xml feed...

There would be no need to load a real NS page and the traffic will go down quite a bit...

And I suggest that rule #5 does not apply to xml data...

The forum is no longer located at http://www.nationstates.net/forum/

The forum is no longer located at http://www.nationstates.net/forum/

And note that the GoogleBot, among others, scans the Jolt forums (including the NationStates forums now) regularly.

The forum is no longer located at http://www.nationstates.net/forum/

Rule Clarification:

True, therefore no scripts that automate processing and posting to the Jolt Forums are prohibited.

Any script that automatically posts regional messages is illegal.

:D so we can't spam our own user-created regions? *giggle* Not that I would...I'm just saying that if you're the founder, don't you have complete rule over your region? :D

No script may post regional messages without permission of founder (or delegate if no founder exists).

Actually, if you look at the link in big bold text at the top of the thread that goes to the official rules. You'll see that founders can post to the regional boards.

*UGH* :x

Considering MrNonchalant's comment above, and script already in use, perhaps it should be made specific that any use of scripts to compete in any form would be just as unfair? Reading MrNonchalants question in a different thread, it has occured to me it is possible to run attack / defense situations by script as well. This could even go as far as using remotely controlable agents. *SHUDDER*

Ballotonia


Does your recent evading of game mechanics to prevent you from losing endorsements following your banning from the North Pacific fall into this category?

Your use of region hopping scripts in that context effects competition in the game precisely as you describe in your post quoted above. I would agree with you that it is unfair to the rest of us and I would hope a moderator sees it that way as well.

Does your recent evading of game mechanics to prevent you from losing endorsements following your banning from the North Pacific fall into this category?

Yes, it would. It was indeed (and still is) my suggestion that such scripts should be deemed illegal as well.

Your use of region hopping scripts in that context effects competition in the game precisely as you describe in your post quoted above. I would agree with you that it is unfair to the rest of us and I would hope a moderator sees it that way as well.

You do not know of what you speak. I suggest refraining from using flawed assumptions in an attempt to condemn others. Your campaign to tar my name belongs in Gameplay, not in Moderation.

Ballotonia

Yes, it would. It was indeed (and still is) my suggestion that such scripts should be deemed illegal as well.



You do not know of what you speak. I suggest refraining from using flawed assumptions in an attempt to condemn others. Your campaign to tar my name belongs in Gameplay, not in Moderation.

Ballotonia

I note that you do not deny the facts and also that your first comment contradicts your second. Said scripts should be illegal precisely because they allow a player to interfere with game mechanics in such a way to avoid the effects of those mechanics that every other player is subject to. In short, you benefit by altering the mechanics of the game for your own purposes.

I note that you do not deny the facts and also that your first comment contradicts your second.

I try to never deny facts, as they are... facts. We merely seem to disagree on what are or are not facts. Since you are the one making claims about what I am doing, and I know quite clearly what I do or not do, I do regard my knowledge of the topic at hand to be more accurate than yours.

Said scripts should be illegal precisely because they allow a player to interfere with game mechanics in such a way to avoid the effects of those mechanics that every other player is subject to.

Wrong. I agree that the scripts as you describe should be made illegal, though not for the flawed reason you provide. Do you have any experience / knowledge of what scripts do / can do? If not, I would suggest you start off asking questions to enhance your understanding, not make error-riden accusations.

In short, you benefit by altering the mechanics of the game for your own purposes.

I do not alter the mechanics of the game, such powers are left to Game Admins. I am not a Game Admin.

Ballotonia

I do not alter the mechanics of the game, such powers are left to Game Admins. I am not a Game Admin.

Ballotonia

allow me to restate for clarity:

Your usage of the aforementioned scripts allows you to interfere with game mechanics in such a way to avoid the effects of those mechanics upon yourself that every other player is subject to.

And we still do not disagree on the facts. It seems like you are in agreement that usage of the sort of scripts that have allowed you to duck the effects of game mechanics that affect everyone else should be illegal. The question of current or future illegality is best left to a moderator or game admin.

Ballatonia perhaps you could clarify exactly what you are doing that is making FL so excited? this thread currently does not state this very clearly in so many words.

Scripts that take allot of hard work out of the hands of players, incourage lazyness and are bad for the game. It makes whole regios inactive and will cause their downfall. They sleep happily because they think that the all-mighty script of Ballotonia will protect them. When newbies join that region, they see a whole lot of inactive nations, a delegate who only becomes active to do some mysterious ejections, and get bored. In 28 days they are gone.
This game is only fun if you have to work hard, and constantly have to guard your step, counting oponent's endorsements and watch out for swappers.

I refuse to accept the outcome of a script as proof, unless it is verified by a game moderator, or the mechanics of the script can be checked upon.

Ballatonia perhaps you could clarify exactly what you are doing that is making FL so excited? this thread currently does not state this very clearly in so many words.

I think that for me to do so is one of Faithful Lutherans' objectives. By making preposterous claims of cheating I might be goaded into revealing detailed information about how I play the game, which would be very useful information for anyone, like Faithful Lutherans, who chooses to play on the 'opposite side' of me.

What I do and how is information available to the Moderators so they can verify that I indeed do what I do in a NS-legal manner. Faithful Lutherans should not attempt to utilize accusations to gain in-game information / advantage, and I will hence not cater to his accusations other than pointing out that he's wrong and should take it to the moderators instead of making those unfounded public accusations.

Ballotonia

Ballotonia's scripts have been vetted and approved by the NS staff.

Unless Faithful Lutherans has any claims that can be backed up by something other than wild speculation, they are strongly urged to quit making baseless accusations.

- The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game Moderator

What is a script. I want to follow the rules, but i cannot if i do not understand them.

What is a script. I want to follow the rules, but i cannot if i do not understand them.

If you don't know what a script is, then you aren't going to break these rules.

I have a friend who really hates the bunny, turtle, kangaroo, etc. The reason is that she wants to see the last ten significant regional happenings, and one pass of all of the animals (and the kangaroo seems to hit twice as many times as the other two) basically spams out the entire regional happenings (well, 80% of it.)

She hasn't complained to the mods (she just whines to me) because the bunny, etc. are older nations than hers so she figures they are OK in what they do even though it spoils aspects of the game for her.

I tend to agree, I think these animals are regional happenings spammers. Let them move once per update if they want to. But their fun is stealing other players' fun.

Just 2-cents worth. I'm sure that you can find many regions whose happenings boards are full of nothing but animal tracks.

Alright, a couple things.

1. A loophole in the "Now binding" regulations. Article number 3 sates that we can't use scripts on the forums begining with "www.nationstates.net/forums" well, now that we've moved to Jolt, that isn't acccurate. Just pointing it out before there is a three page bitchfest complete with forum spam and flaiming

2. As a person who doesn't have a ton of time to scan the forums, would it be allowed to program a bot to do a search on the forum ever twelve hours or so to tag relevant threads for veiwing? Now that we've moved to Jolt, and googlebots are allowed to scan the forums, why can't players? It would be a heck of a lot easier to find relevant things in General, NS, II, UN, pretty much everywhere.

3. What is the standing policy on loopholes? If some one finds one and uses it, will they get off, or will they get a warning or ban? And, if you use a loophole and get caught, does it increase the severity of your offense?

Just a couple things to consider and think about.

Number One has now been fixed.

Number Two I'm afraid I don't know about.

Number Three I can answer.

The rules are not set in stone for very good reasons, and one of the larger of those reasons is to prevent people breaking the rules through the use of loopholes. Someone who uses a loophole to break the rules will in all probability find themselves punished as if they had broken the rules in a more conventional manner.

~ Tsar the Mod.

#2, I'd prefer to leave the forums untouched by bot as they are suffering from userload enough already.

#3, This is a very odd question, and usually falls to my opinion of each individual one. The overarching rule of NationStates is "Play Nice" and I'll use that to judge the script.

So, basically, exploiting a loophole can result in anything from "Neat idea, I'll codify it as legal" to "Neat idea, but don't do it again" to "Warning" to "Deletion" depending on my opinion of the specific case.

Okay, thanks guys, I was just wondering because I don't have time to trawl through the forums so I was going to make a SCAR bot that scanned the forums for threads that might be relevant, maybe some time when we arn't already killing Jolt.

Question for Salusa: A script to query all the nations in NationStates is impossible... (it would take 5 days with the 3 second rule, and over a day without any throttling). However, I would like to gather some stats about the 'world'. So, is it at all possibly you can archive ALL the XML fields and send it to me (it would probably only be about 10MB), or should I just take a small crosssection (a few thousand nations) and hope that that is a big enough sample for a reasonable estimate, or is it possible to ask you for the very stats that I want?

Cheers :)

Ballotonia's scripts have been vetted and approved by the NS staff.

Fair enough. I'll consider that the official response to the numerous moderation requests I submitted on this point through FAQ in February.


Unless Faithful Lutherans has any claims that can be backed up by something other than wild speculation, they are strongly urged to quit making baseless accusations.

- The Most Glorious Hack
NationStates Game Moderator

With respect Hack,

Your validation, quoted above, of the existence of the scripts I refer to makes my point. Ballatonia was (as the nation Better Times) using scripts to bounce from region to region thereby avoiding the effects of the update. In my already stated opinion, this allowed Better Times to dodge the effects of game mechanics for his own benefit. Better Times has denied this in public on more than one occasion, but has admitted to it elsewhere when he felt more "secure". Were I to produce said "back up" you refer to, I highly doubt NS moderation would do anything as you have just stated that his scripts are "vetted and approved" and my source would then be burned to no effect.

I don't care one iota for the "detailed information" that Ballatonia claims I want as I don't have time or knowledge enough to write scripts to circumvent the effects of an online game. After all, this is a game.

I go with what I saw admitted to by Ballatonia and the results of his region hopping were proof enough for me. The point is moot for more than one reason now as Better Times is no longer in the UN.

Hack, I don't plan to engage you further on this as your first comment answered my concerns and the only reason I responded here was your 2nd comment, quoted above, about "wild speculation" and "baseless accusations" which we all know are miscategorizations of my statements.

edit: this is FL and I was logged into a different nation when I saw your post

Ballatonia was (as the nation Better Times) using scripts to bounce from region to region thereby avoiding the effects of the update.

You do not know what I do and how. Please stop making this accusation.

In my already stated opinion, this allowed Better Times to dodge the effects of game mechanics for his own benefit.

You are entitled to your opinion. Your opinion however does not determine the game rules, but feel free to propose the rules to be changed to make such moving around illegal.

Better Times has denied this in public on more than one occasion, but has admitted to it elsewhere when he felt more "secure".

Since it is not illegal to move ones nation around, there's no issue of 'admitting' anything. I also will not 'admit' to what my puppet nations are, what I'm doing in-game or what I plan to do in-game, other than informing a mod/admin when and if required. Example: if I were on an undercover mission, you can count on me denying that in-game, or even lie about it in-game (!). That's part of how the game is played. I do not owe you or anyone else a full and correct statement of what I may or may not be doing at any particular time. It's very simple: if you think I may be violating a rule, you ask the mods to check it out using the Getting Help page. Regardless of how that continues, you are not owed an explanation of what the other player does in-game.

Were I to produce said "back up" you refer to, I highly doubt NS moderation would do anything as you have just stated that his scripts are "vetted and approved" and my source would then be burned to no effect.

Feel free to provide whatever 'evidence' you feel you may have to the moderators, who will include it in their evaluations for whatever it is worth.

[...] about "wild speculation" and "baseless accusations" which we all know are miscategorizations of my statements.

Your opinion isn't automatically raised to the level of something "we all know". For one, I tend to agree with Hack here. ;)

Ballotonia

I also will not 'admit' to what my puppet nations are, what I'm doing in-game or what I plan to do in-game, other than informing a mod/admin when and if required. Example: if I were on an undercover mission, you can count on me denying that in-game, or even lie about it in-game (!). That's part of how the game is played. I do not owe you or anyone else a full and correct statement of what I may or may not be doing at any particular time. It's very simple: if you think I may be violating a rule, you ask the mods to check it out using the Getting Help page. Regardless of how that continues, you are not owed an explanation of what the other player does in-game.

Thank you. That confirms a great deal. In light of this, how can anyone believe the rest of what you are saying.

Also, reread my post. I didn't ask for anything from you. I stated what I believe to be factual and reported it to the mods some time back. In my opinion, Hack has already ruled on this and that particular issue is closed IMHO. My concern was the obvious mischaracterization of my comments and reporting to the mods.

This is not an accusation, but an observation. Hack has been around the game a long time and I remember him from when I first started in NS almost 2 years ago. If he says your scripts are within the rules, then they obviously are. My original report was filed 2 months ago and I consider Hack's answer to be the final word on that.

I do know however, that I can comment when I believe I've been mischaracterized and that I can do so without input or threats from the likes of yourself Ballotonia. Lets look to the rest of your commentary:



Feel free to provide whatever 'evidence' you feel you may have to the moderators, who will include it in their evaluations for whatever it is worth.

you say that here. Now, lets look at what you say by NS TG to me (since you've given me leave to put this up)


OL, please stop making public accusation of cheating. If you have a complaint, file it with the mods. I do *NOT* cheat. I do *NOT* violate NS Rules.

You have no clue about what has happened or how, and your accusations are quite baseless and false.

If you continue this *I* will file a complaint against *YOU* for defemation of character.

Free4All

Obviously you are concerned enough about something to send the above ludicrious threat. Your so called "defamation of character" charge isn't a NS in game issue, but sounds like a threat of RL legal action. Please feel free to attempt to make good on your "threat" :LOL: I won't even comment on the level of nutjobbery your so called "threat" drops to except to say that I've kept the TG.

Thank you. That confirms a great deal. In light of this, how can anyone believe the rest of what you are saying.

the modforum is OOC, he did say ingame. might also be a good idea to stop using the modforum for your ingame political motives.
gameplay is a nice forum for that...

Obviously you are concerned enough about something to send the above ludicrious threat. Your so called "defamation of character" charge isn't a NS in game issueWell, I think the mods decide wether it is or not.
And of course Ballo is concerned, wouldn't you be when you're accused of cheating, multiple times, and the mods said it wasn't the case.

Just my thoughts.

I'm backing up ze Dutch.

Faithful Lutherans: Hack investigated you accusations and declared that Ballo's actions and scripts are legal. Therefore, "baseless accusations" is an accurate assessment of your statements.

I don't know what evidence you did or did not submit to us, as yet, so I can't comment on the "wild speculation" part with confidence. However, any evidence presented to Mods that depends upon confidential sources will be kept confidential by the Moderators; this is covered by the requirements of Moderator Neutrality. So, you do not need to worry about spies or informants being exposed because their testimony was used in an official complaint filed by Getting Help request.

I have confirmed the telegram from "Better Times" to "Faithful Lutherans". It is legal. Furthermore, I believe that it is justified. If you press this matter further without presenting evidence to Moderators (whether priavtely or publicly), then I will slap you with official warnings for defamation and spamming a sticky topic.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
NationStates Game Moderator

Where do you get these scripts at? Like the one for letting a founder eject a nation if it has over so many endorsements. Could somebody please tell me? In my opinion these scripts need to be given to everybody or it is not fair.

Where do you get these scripts at? People sit down and write them.

In my opinion these scripts need to be given to everybody or it is not fair.Neither is life.

In my opinion either all of these legal scripts should be announced to the public or they should all be illegal. Just because somebody is bad at NationStates does not mean that they should be able to cheat with these scripts. Why not just then make what these scripts do, as general functions within the game? In my opinion these scripts should not be allowed. It takes away from the game. That is my two cents.

Just because somebody is bad at NationStates does not mean that they should be able to cheat with these scripts.
1. people who use scripts are sometimes some of the more established players
2. since the moderators have ruled these scripts legal it isn't cheating to use them.
Why not just then make what these scripts do, as general functions within the game?
most scripts are just automated versions of ingame functions anyway so technically they are already functions within the game.

As for whether they should be allowed or not i think they should. Its not as if other people cant use the same scripts as either:
1. you can learn to write them yourself
2. you can find someone who is willing to show you some scripts that you can use.

Ok, these are now binding (though still up for discussion)


Scripts may not be used to endorse or unendorse other nations.


I know of a few players who use these endo Tarting scripts. As they are able to avoid detection from the MODS....I would like to suggest a way to catch these members.

I am have no knowledge of how to write scripts or how they work...but in using scripts created by players i think i found a way to catch those using an Endo Tarting Script. I discovered it once when i was switching UN's....i had just resigned from the UN and accepted my UN status on another nation right after. Immediatly I was endorsed by a nation (who shall remain nameless). Mind u I had the Acceptance Email in my inbox for days and looked at the nation immediatly after i accepted. I believe only a endo script could possibly have endorsed me so quickly. SO, a player who uses an Endo Script and has it running in a region might possibly be caught in this way.

Hopefully, this helps...if not...oh well...hope the MODS catch these cheaters.

I believe only a endo script could possibly have endorsed me so quickly.

... and this is where you're wrong ;)

Ballotonia

SO i was told on IRC....its called Pre endorsing....I hope the MODS can spend some more time on this issue. Perhaps more advanced players with knowledge of scripts can help.

I see your not worried at all Ballotonia!! ;) :sniper:

SO i was told on IRC....its called Pre endorsing....I hope the MODS can spend some more time on this issue. Perhaps more advanced players with knowledge of scripts can help.

The technique you refer to has been ruled legal (although it may become impossible when/if the game coding is altered). I fail to see what's there to investigate, especially considering you do not provide specific details. I would suggest however that if you were to make accusations of cheating against specific individuals that you contact the mods in a non-public manner.

I see your not worried at all Ballotonia!! ;) :sniper:

Your use of double-! worries me though. Tells me you've spent too much time with Poltsamaa. You've been subverted! :p ;)

Ballotonia

Enough of this sniping in Technical. It has no place here. It really has no place anywhere on NationStates.

Knock it off, NOW.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator
The One-Stop Rules Shop

I've done an NSWiki page on Scripts, as it was a 'Requested Article'. However, it's pretty basic - maybe someone more knowledgeable about such matters could check it over for mistakes, and add anything I've omitted?

Edit: the article can be found here (http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Scripts).

No script may send unsolicited telegrams. (1 reply message is permitted to a received telegram)

Is it OK if I can use a script or some other way of automation to send telegrams notifying UN Delegates about a Proposal?

One method I though was to have VB simulate the clicks required to send a telegram once every 15-18 seconds. That way, I can simply provide a list and the program will do the telegram sending.

Sending over 500 telegrams sure is hard work. Hats off to those who have done it without any automation!! :cheers:

Is it OK if I can use a script or some other way of automation to send telegrams notifying UN Delegates about a Proposal?

One method I though was to have VB simulate the clicks required to send a telegram once every 15-18 seconds. That way, I can simply provide a list and the program will do the telegram sending.

Sending over 500 telegrams sure is hard work. Hats off to those who have done it without any automation!! :cheers:
No you can't (unfortunately) use a script to TG people about a proposal. What I've always thought would be helpful though is a script to compare the names of delegates you've already TG'ed against a list of all known delegates. This would prevent sending out multiple TG's. It could also cull out the ones who have already approved your proposal.

No you can't (unfortunately) use a script to TG people about a proposal.Excuse me, but on what authority can you categorically state this? If you've seen it posted elsewhere, feel free to post a link. If you haven't, then you're speculating. Don't.


Salusa is the final authority on scripts, but my initial inclination would be to say 'no'. Sending TGs to delegates who specifically state in their WFEs that they don't want them is against the rules. I doubt you have a script sophisticated enough to interpret the intent of all the different ways that could be phrased, so you'd have to manually visit each region before adding them to your list of names. That's enough work that clicking the Delegate name and pasting a boilerplate TG wouldn't be a lot more.

That would count as an unsolicited telegram and thus that script would not be permitted.

Excuse me, but on what authority can you categorically state this? If you've seen it posted elsewhere, feel free to post a link. If you haven't, then you're speculating. Don't.
It's always been my understanding that a TG campaign in support of a proposal constituted "unsolicited telegrams". Thus using a script would not be allowed.

That would count as an unsolicited telegram and thus that script would not be permitted.
I respect your final authority on this and won't use a script.
By script, my understanding is that, the script is written in CGI/ASP/PHP/etc... and queries the NS server.

But what about making a VB prog to simulate the mouse clicks on my computer? I can simple provide a list of whom I want to telegram and the prog will do the rest under my supervision. That way, the telegram is sent automatically after 15-18 seconds.

BTW, I didn't do bad for my first attempt. I got around 80 approvals :-) [Manual telegrams]!!


It's always been my understanding that a TG campaign in support of a proposal constituted "unsolicited telegrams". Thus using a script would not be allowed.
Is it considered that way in NS? I believe almost everyone does it. Is there any other way to promote your proposal?
There are some UN delegates as far as I know, who don't bother to check the proposals. So telegram is the only way to ask support.



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Umm... I am a newbie myself, please answer my questions gently :P

Is it considered that way in NS? I believe almost everyone does it. Is there any other way to promote your proposal?
There are some UN delegates as far as I know, who don't bother to check the proposals. So telegram is the only way to ask support.

A telegram campaign is alright, but you have to send the TG's manually.

In all fairness, some delegates dont want to be bothered with proposals. When I was a delegate, not only would I ignore any proposal telegrammed to me, but I made it a point to vote nay on the resolution if it came to pass (then again, I voted nay on almost every resolution that was up anyway cuz I didn't agree to them)

Personally, I think all UN telegrams should be out-lawwed as unsolicited, and only allow people to push their resolution in the UN forum.

But what about making a VB prog to simulate the mouse clicks on my computer? I can simple provide a list of whom I want to telegram and the prog will do the rest under my supervision. That way, the telegram is sent automatically after 15-18 seconds.

It's automated access of the NS server isn't it? That's a script.

Is it considered that way in NS?
Haven't I already made it clear that it is considered unsolicited TGs and thus you may not use scripts for it?

It's automated access of the NS server isn't it? That's a script.

Oooh!! I didn't think of it that way. No prob, I shall not do it then


Haven't I already made it clear that it is considered unsolicited TGs and thus you may not use scripts for it?
Nope, I was referring to sending telegrams as campaign advertisements (Yeldan's post), whether they are automated or manual.
Anyway, it doesn't matter now!