NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm new here and this has probably been discussed before, but I couldn't find any references under the search

I also appreciate that this may be something that is being considered for v2

But, the RP trade aspect could, in my opinion, be greatly enhanced by the presence of a means to actually use GDP funds*, so that trading actually has some meaning

It shouldn't be too difficult to automate since all it rquires is a field in the DB to hold the available funds

A property list of items could be created in one or more fields linked to each nation, of disposable resources. These could be very general categories - raw materials, military power, education, etc. - with simple integer values to keep things simple

Nations could then trade with each other realistically. Maybe even regions. Then trade and resource management would actually have some impact.

Perhaps someone could even develop a stockmarket utility to keep track of the average trade value of all transactions for each category

As long as the number of fields is kept to a minimum then the storage and server impact would, hopefully, not be impossible to maintain or detrimental to the service



Anyhow ... Just an idea



*These could be easily calculated by means of something similar to the GDP calculator proposed here: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109479

NationStates is not going to have any major changes made to it. Just the odd tweak to make it perform better.

Post your ideas in the NationStates 2 forum, they'd go down better in there.

It was my impression that this is exactly what you had to do in the rp forums, and that, if you didn't... you'd be shot. (probably with an ignore cannon)

Using Excel and the GDP calculator its not that hard to keep a balanced national budget, if you were so inclined.

One of the major problems is that this automatically forces all RPing nations into the modern western economic model, which many don't want and which mods have on numerous occasions said they are not going to encourage.

Even the GDP calculator is not officially endorsed because the game does not want to impose restrictions on how it is played. What about societies without money? or where there is such equality that no one profits from others on the stock market?

The money system we have already works fine. Any addition to this as you suggest would only expose how basic it is and stifle the active and imaginative economy that thrives in the environment we have.

Well, it wasn't the difficulty of balancing my own budget that I was driving at, so much as the usefulness of a systemwide, accurately measured accounting/economic/trading system

It was more about what could be done with the data ... such as a stock-exchange, exchange-rate mechanism and so forth that would have been interesting

And whilst I can maintain my *own* data easily enough, doing so for the entire game would be the kind of herculean task for which computers were invented, but which I, as a mere mortal, could not hope to keep on top of

But, it seems that this is something that is going to be included in NS2 (if anywhere), so I'm not gonna push the issue

One of the major problems is that this automatically forces all RPing nations into the modern western economic model, which many don't want and which mods have on numerous occasions said they are not going to encourage.

Even the GDP calculator is not officially endorsed because the game does not want to impose restrictions on how it is played. What about societies without money? or where there is such equality that no one profits from others on the stock market?

The money system we have already works fine. Any addition to this as you suggest would only expose how basic it is and stifle the active and imaginative economy that thrives in the environment we have.

Well, I'm not sure that it *would* force people to adopt the Western model ... It would only be a generic calculation of who had how much of each resource available to them ... and then averages taken across the board as a general guideline to people as to what the average value of certain resources was

As in the real world, however, no-one would be *obliged* to trade at a given level ... Anyone would be free to set their own prices and trade in whatever resources they like ... There would be no reason not to agree an exchange of missiles for foodstuffs, for instance

Even the GDP calculator is not officially endorsed because the game does not want to impose restrictions on how it is played.
Even the GDP Calc is not endorsed, because it is in all honesty, pardon me for saying, a piece of junk, and I suspect that admin knows it.

It uses civil rights instead of tax rates (and even then there is only a small difference between a nation with "Outlawed" and "Frightening" CR for the callc's "tax rates"), encourages massively unrealistic deficit spending, fails to take in civilian infrastructure (it can't that being several hidden factors), and Max knows what else.

Sounds like real government practise to me

Sounds like real government practise to me

Real Governments can not godmod. They can have high tax rates, or low tax rates and claim spend large amounts, however they not have low tax rates and actually spend large amounts for example.

The GDP Calc effectively is widely backed godmodding.

Sounds like real government practise to me

Real Governments can not godmod. They can have high tax rates, or low tax rates and claim spend large amounts, however they not have low tax rates and actually spend large amounts for example.

The GDP Calc effectively is widely backed godmodding.

Actually, they can and *do* ... which is where international debt comes from

Sounds like real government practise to me

Real Governments can not godmod. They can have high tax rates, or low tax rates and claim spend large amounts, however they not have low tax rates and actually spend large amounts for example.

The GDP Calc effectively is widely backed godmodding.

Actually, they can and *do* ... which is where international debt comes from

Well, yes, but a nation would have to RP the borrowing of money from another, concenting nation.

Well ... in light of the comments about the whole money issue here, I guess that would be the only option as it stands

Although we have posted this elsewhere on the forums, advertising our services, this is not spam, so please bear with us.

We are posting this in response here, as we feel it may have some bearing on the issues discussed here - specifically with regard to the difficulty in/desirability of establishing an ERM

-- --

We are an independant offshore data storage institution

Our team of dedicated owner-employees are experts in the field of security and data protection and can offer a service second to none when it comes to protecting your assets

All financial transactions are transparent and secure and our privacy policy guarantees your confidentiality

Our rates are competative and flexible - tailored to suit your needs and means

For peace of mind contact us today

-- --

FIA does not have a currency per se. We hold data.

For the purposes of generating our own wealth we charge our clients a fee, calculated to serve both their and our interests to the mutual benefit of all.

Our GDP is, therefore, held in multiple demoniations and calculations are based upon the Tuple - a nominal virtual currency representing a variable ratio between our service charge to a client and their national currency.

We charge a flat rate in Tuples which is identical to all clients. This way our service fees are transparent to all but the client concerned.

-- --

If nations were to trade through us, with FIA acting as a broker, then the issues of variable exchange rates would be resolved to a not inconsiderable degree.

We and the client will set the Currency:Tuple exchange rate.

Each nation would see the exchange managed in Tuples.

All transactions between two clients would then be brokered by FIA, thus relieving the individual nations of the need to scour the world looking for the various exchange rates available.

Since the Tuple is a virtual currency, the final outcome of the deal can be an exchange of goods or materials rather than currency, but this is masked by the Tuple ERM and so confusing extraneous detail is eliminated.

If all nations' transactions are measured in Tuples then it is possible to compare deals and select the best one available, without the chaos caused by comparing various and variable exchange rates.

Everyone is a winner.

-- --

Hope this helps

Although we have posted this elsewhere on the forums, advertising our services, this is not spam, so please bear with us.

We are posting this in response here, as we feel it may have some bearing on the issues discussed here - specifically with regard to the difficulty in/desirability of establishing an ERM

-- --

We are an independant offshore data storage institution

Our team of dedicated owner-employees are experts in the field of security and data protection and can offer a service second to none when it comes to protecting your assets

All financial transactions are transparent and secure and our privacy policy guarantees your confidentiality

Our rates are competative and flexible - tailored to suit your needs and means

For peace of mind contact us today

-- --

FIA does not have a currency per se. We hold data.

For the purposes of generating our own wealth we charge our clients a fee, calculated to serve both their and our interests to the mutual benefit of all.

Our GDP is, therefore, held in multiple demoniations and calculations are based upon the Tuple - a nominal virtual currency representing a variable ratio between our service charge to a client and their national currency.

We charge a flat rate in Tuples which is identical to all clients. This way our service fees are transparent to all but the client concerned.

-- --

If nations were to trade through us, with FIA acting as a broker, then the issues of variable exchange rates would be resolved to a not inconsiderable degree.

We and the client will set the Currency:Tuple exchange rate.

Each nation would see the exchange managed in Tuples.

All transactions between two clients would then be brokered by FIA, thus relieving the individual nations of the need to scour the world looking for the various exchange rates available.

Since the Tuple is a virtual currency, the final outcome of the deal can be an exchange of goods or materials rather than currency, but this is masked by the Tuple ERM and so confusing extraneous detail is eliminated.

If all nations' transactions are measured in Tuples then it is possible to compare deals and select the best one available, without the chaos caused by comparing various and variable exchange rates.

Everyone is a winner.

-- --

Hope this helps

If all nations' transactions are measured in Tuples then it is possible to compare deals and select the best one available, without the chaos caused by comparing various and variable exchange rates.

Everyone is a winner.

It's an interesting concept ... but how will your 'clients' know that the exchange rate they are getting with a given nation is comparable to the deal they would get with another?

Let's say my Tuple:Idon exchange rate is 1:2
Another nation (X) has a Tuple:currency rate of 1:1.5
A third nation (Y) has a rate of 1:3

If I were to deal with Y directly, I would get a better deal than if I were dealing with X ... but I won't know this, since all I see is a diferential ratio

Say I want to spend 10 Idons on goods, then the deal with X would be 5 of my Tuples to 6.67 of theirs which is an exchange ratio of 1 Idon to 0.75 of their currency ... costing me 14.67 Idons

But if I choose to do the deal with Y then the ratio is 5:3.33, which is 1 Idon to 1.5 of theirs ... costing me only 6.67 Idons

Clearly, I would be better off dealing with Y, but I won't know this since all I will see is a flat rate measured in Tuples

Actually, they can and *do* ... which is where international debt comes from
Which would raise taxes later on.

Come on. Name me one IRL nation that has a set tax rate, and then looks at its civil rights and says "we have pretty good civil rights so we have this much revenue", and has it actually happen.

Well ... I wasn't trying to say that this wouldn't result in tax hikes

All I was doing was responding to the assertion that nations do not live beyond their means

As far as the the specifics are concerned, I guess it depends on a large number of factors, including the current state of the economy, the temporal proximity of the next elections (if any) and the nature of the deal(s) struck with the creditor nations

Government bonds, for instance, would buy a government considerably more breathing space (say up to twenty years) than a straightforward 'loan' ... allowing them to put off the next tax hike until after the next election or two, covering the cost over a longer period with more frequent, but lower, tax hikes in the meantime, on the expectation of an upswing in the domestic economy and, therefore, GDP

Well ... I wasn't trying to say that this wouldn't result in tax hikes

All I was doing was responding to the assertion that nations do not live beyond their means

As far as the the specifics are concerned, I guess it depends on a large number of factors, including the current state of the economy, the temporal proximity of the next elections (if any) and the nature of the deal(s) struck with the creditor nations

Government bonds, for instance, would buy a government considerably more breathing space (say up to twenty years) than a straightforward 'loan' ... allowing them to put off the next tax hike until after the next election or two, covering the cost over a longer period with more frequent, but lower, tax hikes in the meantime, on the expectation of an upswing in the domestic economy and, therefore, GDP
But not as far beyond their means as the GDP calc allows, not with as much waste as the GDP calc forces on the other extreme (ie outlawed CR and 100% tax rate), and not without consequences later on.

That may be so ... I can't really comment much about the GDP calculator ... I don't know what algorithm(s) it uses in its calculation or which economic model/s it uses ... and I'm not an economist either, so I don't really feel confident that I'dd able to do so without making a fool of myself

But, given that there will, apparently, be no implementation of such a thing in NS1, I would say that for the purposes of maintaining a playing field that is even remotely level it has to be a good thing ... It may be inaccurate, but as long as everyone uses the same one then everyone's finances will be comparably inaccurate, which gives us all some basis for trade other than barter and ERMs

Since all financial dealing will have to be RPed anyway, I don't see that it really matters that much how inaccurate it is ... all it need do is provide some sort of scale that people can use to springboard off ... After all, if one nation gets attacked by an armada that was purchased with funds calculated at a factor of a thousand times that of the GDP of the victim will not know this is an error of scale rather than a even fight and nor will the attacker

We need a basis for comparison and until someone comess up with a better GDP calculator I'd say it was better to use the one we have got than none at all

I kinda like the sound of the idea suggested above by Ayakhustyx ... a sort of de facto ERM not based on any specific gold standard, so to speak ... but I'm uncertain of how they plan to make it work and will need more explanation before I'm willing to commit myself one way or the other ... ... ... If they can satisfy me that it will not be chaotic and wildly in accurate in it's modelling of the relative values of the different currencies, I might consider making use of their service ... It would be nice to see a stock-exchange take off ... the RP potential would be great ... and I like their idea of an offshore data-haven ... it fits in with my ideas for The Lands Beyond

everyone's finances will be comparably inaccurate
No. A nation with 5% tax rates and Frightening CR and economy is going to be grossly favered over, say a nation with 100% tax rates, Outlawed civil rights, and an Imploded economy.

If they were the same size, our psychotic dictatorship(or AD or TbM) would be able to spend far more than the Anarchy(or countless others), but the GDP calc would favor the Anarchy massively.

Hmmm ... perhaps it's time for a new GDP calculator then ... devised by someone who has a good grasp of economics

In the meantime, perhaps the scale shownn at http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29122 would do?

At the end of the day, I'm not trying to say how things ought to be done ... I just had a feeling that the whole NS experience would be enhanced by the introduction of some sort of economic system that would provide a basis for nation-nation comparison that all could agree on, rather than having to rely on the vaguaries of pure RP ... and made a suggestion ... Perhaps the Tuple will turn out to be it, but, as I said, I'm waiting to hear more about it before I join in and evangelise

Hmmm ... perhaps it's time for a new GDP calculator then ... devised by someone who has a good grasp of economics

In the meantime, perhaps the scale shownn at http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29122 would do?

At the end of the day, I'm not trying to say how things ought to be done ... I just had a feeling that the whole NS experience would be enhanced by the introduction of some sort of economic system that would provide a basis for nation-nation comparison that all could agree on, rather than having to rely on the vaguaries of pure RP ... and made a suggestion ... Perhaps the Tuple will turn out to be it, but, as I said, I'm waiting to hear more about it before I join in and evangelise
The Entire States has a formula.

I like Nik's method better (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=29122&start=15)
Pepole with higher economies tend to really milk it and exagerate it, as The Entire States demonstrated.

Fair enough, although the "Multiply this number by your average tax percentage. [...] Then take this number and multiply it by your entire population" point needs to be remembered

The problem, as I see it, though, is how to get every nation behind it ... Also, there's the issue of different currencies ... An hourly income of 1,620 Lira (Italian) sounds like a lot ... until you realise it's just one dollar (US)

So, what does the GDP calculated actually represent? ... Is it in local currency or in some sort of virtual international currency?

Hmmm ... I've been playing around with calculations based upon both the GDP calculator and Nik's figures and, for my nation at least, Nik's method was more generous by 25%!

Furthermore, regardless of which method is used an idea or two occurred to me ... I am doubtful though as to whether the Technical Forum is really the place for this any longer and would suggest that we take the discussion elsewhere if we wish to continue it, rather than clogging Technical with something that has already been established to be a moot point, since no such modification will be made to NS1

For the sake of continuity, however, I'll post it here nevertheless, but suggest that if you are interested in pursuing the ideas with me that we continue the discussion either at http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=2503170#2503170 or http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=109479&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=20

1) Given that Nik's method gave me a 25% bonus compared to the GDP calculator, I chose to view it as evidence of government spending being 25% under budget for the year - bonus! :D

However, I'm not sure how that should effect my national finances ... furthermore, there should probably be some way of randomising the amount (from 0% to 25%) and the direction (over budget or under budget)


2) Neither Nik's method nor the GDP calculator overtly state whether or not the figures are gross or net ... or whether they are based upon the entire population or only the working members who actually contribute to the economy.

For example, if I have a population of 20million, should I enter my population of 20million or 13million (20million - 35% retired people)

What about the military? ... They are a drain on resources rather than a contributor and perhaps I should remove them from the figures to start with and then subtract a further 3% from my final GDP

So, taking only the military and the retired into account (3% and 35% respectively), I would perform the calculation based upon a population of 12.4million and then subtract the calculated income of 7.6million troops

What about children and other non-contributors? ... What percentages do *they* make up of the population?

If all nations' transactions are measured in Tuples then it is possible to compare deals and select the best one available, without the chaos caused by comparing various and variable exchange rates.

Everyone is a winner.

It's an interesting concept ... but how will your 'clients' know that the exchange rate they are getting with a given nation is comparable to the deal they would get with another?

Let's say my Tuple:Idon exchange rate is 1:2
Another nation (X) has a Tuple:currency rate of 1:1.5
A third nation (Y) has a rate of 1:3

If I were to deal with Y directly, I would get a better deal than if I were dealing with X ... but I won't know this, since all I see is a diferential ratio

Say I want to spend 10 Idons on goods, then the deal with X would be 5 of my Tuples to 6.67 of theirs which is an exchange ratio of 1 Idon to 0.75 of their currency ... costing me 14.67 Idons

But if I choose to do the deal with Y then the ratio is 5:3.33, which is 1 Idon to 1.5 of theirs ... costing me only 6.67 Idons

Clearly, I would be better off dealing with Y, but I won't know this since all I will see is a flat rate measured in Tuples

For the record, we wish to clear up an apparent misconception.

Only the fee we charge our clients is based upon a uniform value in Tuples. This preserves our clients' financial confidentiality.

We perform all the exchange calculations for our clients transparently. In the example above FIA would post the values in Tuples, having performed the exchange calculations prior to listing.

For the values suggested, the listing table would be as follows:

Sagatia 5.000 Tuples
Nation X 7.335 Tuples
Nation Y 3.335 Tuples

It is clear that nation Y is offering the cheapest supply.

Further, at the rate listed, Nation X might decide that it cannot compete and no longer list that service or item, leaving Sagatia in a stronger position competatively.

Alternatively, Nation X might choose to subcontract its service/item provision to either Sagatia or Nation Y, for reasons of commercial benefit - If Nation Y can supply the service/item at such a competative rate, it is to the benefit of Nation X to import from Nation Y, as it can obtain twice as many units for less than the cost of one of its own and make a saving of 0.3325 Tuples per unit transaction - In real terms to Nation X, this is a saving of 0.665 Tuples (0.9975 units of their own currency) per unit when compared to the cost of a single unit of their own.

We feel that this method of listing service/item charges makes a great deal of sense and is of value to our clients since it makes trade options transparent and draws attention to alternative avenues of wealth-creation that might otherwise be hidden by the vaguaries of nation-to-nation exchange rate based transactions.