NationStates Jolt Archive

Yes, after staring at the Pipian GDP Source Code (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.txt)
for an hour, I have realized the meaning behind it.

The GDP is the amount of wealth circulating around your country at any given time. It is equivalent to everyone's money all added up. The GDPPC is based solely on the economy. It makes sense, if one has a great economy, the average person is going to have more money than the average person from a really poor country. Naturally, its code is this:

GDP = GDP Per Capita (each person) * Population

GDP per Capita:

Frightening -------------$35000
All-Consuming----------$30000
Powerhouse-------------$25000
Thriving -----------------$20000
Very Strong ------------$15000
Strong ------------------$10000
Good --------------------$7500
Reasonable -------------$5000
Developing -------------$4000
Struggling --------------$3000
Weak-------------------$2000
Fragile ------------------$1000
Basket Case -----------$500
Imploded ---------------$100


The National Budget is the government allocated money. I used to think it was this "Magical Number" completely based on a random code. Well, this elusive code can be traced to a somewhat simple formula:

National Budget = ((0.00001 * (GDPPC * GDPPC)) + (0.1036 * GDPPC) * Budget Multiplier * Population)

Civil Rights DO play a role in the National Budget, they determine how much of what I call the REAL Budget the government actually gets:

Civil Rights:------------------Budget Factor

Frightening-----------------------1.5
Excessive ------------------------1.44
World Benchmark --------------1.38
Superb ----------------------------1.32
Excellent -------------------------1.25
Very Good -----------------------1.18
Good ------------------------------1.11
Average---------------------------1.03
Below Average ------------------0.95
Some -----------------------------0.87
Few -------------------------------0.78
Rare -------------------------------0.69
Unheard Of ----------------------0.60
Outlawed -------------------------0.5


REAL Budget = National Budget / Budget Multiplier. In other words, it is purely based on GDP and Population, and not civil rights

I am not too sure why Civil Rights would play a role on how much the government makes, but it does. My civil rights are currently at Unheard of (aka 60% of what it SHOULD be)…if I increase it to Frightening (I dunno what it is for Widely Abused) my national budget would at least double!!!

In other words, for all of you obsessed with war statistics, tauting others because you have the “biggest national budget” I give you one bit of advice: Work on Civil Rights!!

-Dictator of Mianimas

haha, I bet everyone already knew this. In addition, feel free to correct this post, as some of the information is bound to be incorrect.

Yes. We knew this.

There is no reason for this, and no I will not increase my civil rights just cuz some pro-liberals want this to be true.

According to the GDP calc thing, I really must be spending well over 50% of my national budget on defense, in order to accomodate the UN ranked per-capita defense spending (20 something in the world). Or else a bunch of liberal nations actually have more to spend on defense per capita, only according to this flawed assumption about civil rights.

Another reason why I couldn't care less about the GDP calculator ;)

There is no reason for this, and no I will not increase my civil rights just cuz some pro-liberals want this to be true.


:lol: Well, I am not one of those "pro-liberals" I was just pointing out some of the pros in having a liberal nation.

Meh, I keep Political and Civil Freedoms at Unheard Of and Outlawed...

Yes, after staring at the Pipian GDP Source Code (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.txt)
for an hour, I have realized the meaning behind it.

<snip>

National Budget = ((0.00001 * (GDPPC * GDPPC)) + (0.1036 * GDPPC) * Budget Multiplier * Population)

What's interesting about this is that, if you factor .00001 * GDPPC out of the first term, you get
=.00001 * GDPPC * Pop * BM * (GDPPC + 10360)
=(GDP * BM) * (GDPPC + 10360) / 100,000
IOW, multiply your Gross Domestic Product times a "civil rights" based factor times $10,360 more than your GDPPC, and divide all that by 100,000.

So, not only is your "civil rights" rating involved, your tax rate is not. Indeed, if you dropped all taxes, your economy and "civil rights" would probably improve, giving you more money according to this. Talk about deficit spending!

Oh, and why $10,360??


GDP per Capita:

Frightening -------------$35000
All-Consuming----------$30000
Powerhouse-------------$25000
Thriving -----------------$20000
Very Strong ------------$15000
Strong ------------------$10000
Good --------------------$7500
Reasonable -------------$5000
Developing -------------$4000
Struggling --------------$3000
Weak-------------------$2000
Fragile ------------------$1000
Basket Case -----------$500
Imploded ---------------$100



What's interesting about this is it's fairly close to the real world numbers I gave here (www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=81935), that so many people complained were too boring and restrictive and shouldn't NS have economy levels higher than the real world? (which complaints lead me to post the "nicer" numbers in the second list).

So, why all the complaints if my first set of numbers where so close to the gdpcalc's? Also, the numbers at the bottom of the gdpcalc's list are worse than the real-world-based ones I gave.

Finally, where's economy = "Fair" and "civil rights" = "Widely Abused"? Does the program use a default number for those (and if so, what?), or does it fail if either of those terms come up?
If anyone has either ranking, could you please try the gdpcalc and tell us what happened?

Well that explains why tax rates are [*cough* *cough*][*hint]completely ignored[/*hint*][/*cough* *cough].

Seriously, among other things which I dislike (I really need to learn Perl and JavaScript so I can make one of my own) I don't see why he just doesn't use the tax rate itself.

I don't see why he just doesn't use the tax rate itself.

Well, it isn't a factor. The exact difference between two nations with identical economies, but different civil rights and tax rates is directly proportional to their Budget Multiplyer. Like The Entire States said, Tax does not do anything...

I don't see why he just doesn't use the tax rate itself.

Well, it isn't a factor. I exact difference between two nations with identical economies, but different civil rights and tax rates is directly proportional to their Budget Multiplyer. Like The Entire States said, Tax does not do anything...

Since you missed my point, I said that the calculator doesn't use your nation's tax rate, which is just plain silly. Like Qaaolchoura, I do not use the gdpcalc, as I consider it horribly flawed. Seriously, a game "aide" that pays no attention to your nation's tax rate, in (supposedly) figuring out how much money it has?!??! How ludicrous is that?

Per-capita GDP (from your Econ. rating, using whichever table you prefer), times population, times tax rate. Bingo, there you are, done. If you like, a bit of deficit spending, or even spend less than that and save the difference.

I don't see why he just doesn't use the tax rate itself.

Well, it isn't a factor. I exact difference between two nations with identical economies, but different civil rights and tax rates is directly proportional to their Budget Multiplyer. Like The Entire States said, Tax does not do anything...

Since you missed my point, I said that the calculator doesn't use your nation's tax rate, which is just plain silly. Like Qaaolchoura, I do not use the gdpcalc, as I consider it horribly flawed. Seriously, a game "aide" that pays no attention to your nation's tax rate, in (supposedly) figuring out how much money it has?!??! How ludicrous is that?

While I would certainly say it a bit nicer, I completely agree that the most obvious way to figure GDP should be to base around Pop x Tax Rate. Seems you also have to account for the economy (meaning level of rich to poor, to try and figure out what the tax rate really accounts for in revenue).

Yes, after staring at the Pipian GDP Source Code (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.txt)
for an hour, I have realized the meaning behind it.

<snip>

National Budget = ((0.00001 * (GDPPC * GDPPC)) + (0.1036 * GDPPC) * Budget Multiplier * Population)

What's interesting about this is that, if you factor .00001 * GDPPC out of the first term, you get
=.00001 * GDPPC * Pop * BM * (GDPPC + 10360)
=(GDP * BM) * (GDPPC + 10360) / 100,000
IOW, multiply your Gross Domestic Product times a "civil rights" based factor times $10,360 more than your GDPPC, and divide all that by 100,000.

So, not only is your "civil rights" rating involved, your tax rate is not. <snip>

OK, so I'm quoting myself. ;)
Reason is, I just thought of something. You could say the gdpcalc sets your tax rate to
BM * (GDPPC + 10,360) / 100,000. That is, instead of using the tax rate the game software sets (based on your actions and decisions), the gdpcalc forces you to have a tax rate based on your GDPPC and your civil "rights".

Which, IMO, makes it not so much silly as pushy and high-handed.

Which thoroughly offends me. :P

Good point...except...

that the calculator is full of shit

civil rights influencing your economy...give me a break liberals

The magic number in the Nat'l Budget equation: 10,360

Where does it come from? Do any mods have an answer to this? I mean, it is such an obscure number, what is the reasoning behind it?

-The Curious Dictator of Mianimas

The magic number in the Nat'l Budget equation: 10,360

Where does it come from? Do any mods have an answer to this? I mean, it is such an obscure number, what is the reasoning behind it?

-The Curious Dictator of Mianimas

Since the pripian calc is not an official part of NS, I doubt the mods know anything about what went into making it, unless Mac Anu told one or more of them.

So, unless Mac Anu decides to say something, there's no way to know why 10,360.

I find the number 10,360 curious. That number equals the US recognized poverty line of a few years ago. I think the current number is slightly higher. I wonder if it is a coinscidence.

Yes, after staring at the Pipian GDP Source Code (http://www.pipian.com/stuffforchat/gdpcalc.txt)
for an hour, I have realized the meaning behind it.

The GDP is the amount of wealth circulating around your country at any given time. It is equivalent to everyone's money all added up. The GDPPC is based solely on the economy. It makes sense, if one has a great economy, the average person is going to have more money than the average person from a really poor country. Naturally, its code is this:

GDP = GDP Per Capita (each person) * Population

GDP per Capita:

Frightening -------------$35000
All-Consuming----------$30000
Powerhouse-------------$25000
Thriving -----------------$20000
Very Strong ------------$15000
Strong ------------------$10000
Good --------------------$7500
Reasonable -------------$5000
Developing -------------$4000
Struggling --------------$3000
Weak-------------------$2000
Fragile ------------------$1000
Basket Case -----------$500
Imploded ---------------$100


The National Budget is the government allocated money. I used to think it was this "Magical Number" completely based on a random code. Well, this elusive code can be traced to a somewhat simple formula:

National Budget = ((0.00001 * (GDPPC * GDPPC)) + (0.1036 * GDPPC) * Budget Multiplier * Population)

Civil Rights DO play a role in the National Budget, they determine how much of what I call the REAL Budget the government actually gets:

Civil Rights:------------------Budget Factor

Frightening-----------------------1.5
Excessive ------------------------1.44
World Benchmark --------------1.38
Superb ----------------------------1.32
Excellent -------------------------1.25
Very Good -----------------------1.18
Good ------------------------------1.11
Average---------------------------1.03
Below Average ------------------0.95
Some -----------------------------0.87
Few -------------------------------0.78
Rare -------------------------------0.69
Unheard Of ----------------------0.60
Outlawed -------------------------0.5


REAL Budget = National Budget / Budget Multiplier. In other words, it is purely based on GDP and Population, and not civil rights

I am not too sure why Civil Rights would play a role on how much the government makes, but it does. My civil rights are currently at Unheard of (aka 60% of what it SHOULD be)…if I increase it to Frightening (I dunno what it is for Widely Abused) my national budget would at least double!!!

In other words, for all of you obsessed with war statistics, tauting others because you have the “biggest national budget” I give you one bit of advice: Work on Civil Rights!!

-Dictator of Mianimas

haha, I bet everyone already knew this. In addition, feel free to correct this post, as some of the information is bound to be incorrect.

First of all, GDP is not the amount of money running around your nation. GDP is a measure of the value of all the goods and services produced inside your country. (Whether produced by a citizen of your nation, or a citizen or company of another nation.) The nationality of the people or company making the product doesn't matter, becuase it still adds to your GDP and not theirs. But now I know why people were claiming bigger GDP's meant bigger economies. Someone doesn't know the def. of GDP and some have confused it with GNP which completely different.

CR doesn't really affect national budgets that much in real life. But it does impact local economies.

Fascinating. What else does the source code tell us?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mliêstôlkakûmek(Love all as you love yourself)
Racism-the other stupid ideology
Peace, love, and girls with small waists and really big butts!
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg

Someone should make a more accurate GDP Calculator, that uses real numbers (like Tax, for example) and not crazy weird numbers (like 10,360).

It would have the obvious code for GDP (population + GDPPC), but what would we use to determine the Nat'l Budget, Tax?

Hm...My nation has a 100% tax rate...which would mean that I am taking away all of my nation's money...which means that I control all of the GDP? (hm..)

So, would the code simply be: (Population * GDPPC) (Tax/100)?

hm..I do not know how to program this type of stuff, so someone else should. Whoa, what if it was an "Official NationStates Calculator" programmed by the Mods themselves..hm.....the mods know all the 'secrets' of NationStates..and it would finally end the "oh yeah, well, this Calculator says I'm better" arguments (do we really have those?)

Ah well, it was just an idea

-Dictator of Mianiams

I'm working on some formulae for the National Budget/Economic Strength of a nation. As far as I see it, the "GDP" of your Economy depends only on your Economy score and your population.

The National Budget is a different matter altogether. You can only spend what you earn (well in this game anyway), so what matters is:
o the tax rate
o your economic freedoms (leftist governments give tax-free benefits to the working class, rightist governments give tax shelters to the rich, etc. Plus, this determines who earns what, i.e. social inequality)
o whether your tax rate is flat or "higher for the wealthy".

As I said, I have a few formulae. Not official, mind you, but there's a sound basis behind them. I might post them here later since I couldn't write a program for all the tea in China.

I'm working on some formulae for the National Budget/Economic Strength of a nation. As far as I see it, the "GDP" of your Economy depends only on your Economy score and your population.

The National Budget is a different matter altogether. You can only spend what you earn (well in this game anyway), so what matters is:
o the tax rate
o your economic freedoms (leftist governments give tax-free benefits to the working class, rightist governments give tax shelters to the rich, etc. Plus, this determines who earns what, i.e. social inequality)
o whether your tax rate is flat or "higher for the wealthy".

As I said, I have a few formulae. Not official, mind you, but there's a sound basis behind them. I might post them here later since I couldn't write a program for all the tea in China.
I would be interesting in seeing your formula.
Notice how there are no economic depressions, recessions, or bull markets in NS. Its like the economy is always static.

I'm working on some formulae for the National Budget/Economic Strength of a nation. As far as I see it, the "GDP" of your Economy depends only on your Economy score and your population.

The National Budget is a different matter altogether. You can only spend what you earn (well in this game anyway), so what matters is:
o the tax rate
o your economic freedoms (leftist governments give tax-free benefits to the working class, rightist governments give tax shelters to the rich, etc. Plus, this determines who earns what, i.e. social inequality)
o whether your tax rate is flat or "higher for the wealthy".

As I said, I have a few formulae. Not official, mind you, but there's a sound basis behind them. I might post them here later since I couldn't write a program for all the tea in China.
I would be interesting in seeing your formula.
Notice how there are no economic depressions, recessions, or bull markets in NS. Its like the economy is always static.

Thanks for the encouragement. Well, it's not a single formula. It's nine different formulae, sort of a 3x3 grid for leftist, centrist, and rightist governments, and for flat, average, and "higher for wealthy" tax rates. As I said, tax shelters and tax-free benefits should play a small part in it. (I mean, a leftie government isn't going to tax its people's benefits, is it? And a bunch of right-wingers need nice tax shelters to keep their backers happy.)

I may have them done for tomorrow, but they're not official, or based on "inside information" about the game. It's simply an attempt to put the different real-world effects of a tax system into a few, simple equations.

:) How are the formulae coming along? If you finish, post a link here...:)

-Dictator of Mianimas

I am merely posting this here, as my good friend, President Strain of Spyr, has not. This is the way all in the Lyong Region calculate budgets, or so we are moving to:

STEPHEN'S SUPER-TABULATED BUDGET CALCULATION METHOD

Q&A

Q: Why not just use the php GDP Calc.... its easy and convenient!
A: That it is.... but, if you look at the criticism of it, it calculates
budget based on civil rights. Things such as 'tax rates' are deemed
unimportant, and dont acually have an effect on the amount a government has
to spend. As long as everyone has Frightening Civil Rights, they get the
same budget moolah, wether their taxes are 1% or 100%. This is, as will be
pointed out by most senior RPers, inherently fawed.

Q: Cant I calculate this money daily, with 1 RL day = 1NS year?
A: Some people do.... but most of the ones who do so constntly are on so
many IGNORE lists that theyve stopped trying to do serious RP, and just pick
on newbies. Quite simply, if you calculate and spend budget every day, your
#s will rise to unrealistic and unmaintainable levels. That and you'll have
to come up with a new national leader every month ^_^.

The Method
(at last, that macroeconomics course'll come in useful).

The most basic formula for a national budget is the following: B = (PxI)xT

B=Budget P=Population I=Income (I=GDP/P) T=Tax GDP=Gross
Domestic Product

This has been somewhat oversimplified (Tax rate, for example... bitchin to
calculate, and GDP.... be thankful you've been spared) since NS doesnt
provide enough data to do the full formula. So, we'll be satisfied with the
simple version.

a) First, you need to determine Income. NS doesnt accout for cost-of-living,
so we'll have to ignore that, and just use an incorrect but workeable
formula, I=GDP/P (this isnt really income, but GDP per capita.... just be
aware and let it slide). Conveniently, this particular equation has already
been calculated for you, based on your economy rating.

Frightening = 36,000
All Consuming = 32,000
Power House = 28,000
Thriving = 25,000
Very Strong = 22,000
Strong = 17,000
Very Good = 14,500
Good = 12,000
Reasonable = 8,000
Developing = 5,000
Fair = 3,750
Struggling = 2,500
Weak = 1,500
Fragile = 800
Basket Case = 400
Imploded = 100

b) Multiply this by your population (as listed on your nation page). This is
(roughly) your GDP.

c) Multiply the result by your tax rate, as listed on your nation page. This
is your national budget.

d)Now, determine how much budget is expended on military matters, and
multiply your budget by it.

Effectively ruled by: 35%
Devotes most of its attentions to: 25%
Mainly concerned with: 20%
Concentrates mainly on: 18%
Juggles:15%
Secondary priority: 10%
On the Agenda: 8%
[not mentioned]: 4%
Recieving almost no funds in comparison: 1%

e) Of your total military budget, you can calculate military expenditures.
Maintenance Costs: [total of all military expenditures x 10%]
Salary: [# of staff x {GDP per capita for an economy one level above your
own}]
Staff Expenses: [# of staff x {GDP per capita x2}]
and on and on and on....

or, you can simplify, and assume an aquisitions budget of 1-2%.

f) The final number is your military acquisitions budget. You should spend
this money every fortnight or so (that'd be 2 weeks, for the non-Oxfordian
amongst you), to avoid any risk of overspending or godmoddage.


=> As well, for those figuring out your armies, remember that the US has only something like 0.3% of it's citizens are soldiers in it's army. In my country, it being capitalist, I say 0.45% of my populace are in the army, however 65% of them are support staff, so roughly 0.16% of my population are soldiers.

Could this be a better way of doing it (like just maintaining it in a Spreadsheet for yourself, rather than relying on a web-based calculator) or are we all just mostly (insert adjective here) in Lyong?

I've only skim read this thread - so this point might have been raised already but.....

The only tax rate listed is income tax - there are a lot of other kinds of taxation available to a government.

Taking my nation as an example - I have zero income tex and yet I have an 'omnipresent government' - how can I support such a large bureaucratic nightmare of a civil service with no budget?

The only tax rate listed is income tax - there are a lot of other kinds of taxation available to a government.

Taking my nation as an example - I have zero income tex and yet I have an 'omnipresent government' - how can I support such a large bureaucratic nightmare of a civil service with no budget?

Very good point. Also, you manage to fund the 73rd biggest army per capita in the world with a 0% rate. Well done.

In any realistic country, of course, this is impossible. ^_^ So this is a problem for drawing up a formula. I'd imagine a state with no income tax is funded through indirect taxation (although in a right-wing state like yours, I doubt there's much interference with trade and the marketplace) and possibly private donations. Some of the less scrupulous states might use governmental slave labour. Who knows?

My formulae break down for this case, and I'd really like them to work, so I might add in an "Indirect Taxation" variable. I might have them on my site by tomorrow.

My nation's government doesn't fund my defense forces (Santa Barbara is ranked 1st in the region and 33rd in the world, heh sorry bragging), since my nation's government is still just a minor section of one of the corporate Conglomerate's many departments. So basically, it (the military, the nation) is completely privatized, and I ignore "national budget" things as my national budget has little to do with my military.

Sure that might not work in the real world, but that's why in the real world Santa Barbara is just a sunny seaside town in California. :wink:

Very good point. Also, you manage to fund the 73rd biggest army per capita in the world with a 0% rate. Well done.
I try my best :wink: :D

In any realistic country, of course, this is impossible. ^_^ So this is a problem for drawing up a formula. I'd imagine a state with no income tax is funded through indirect taxation (although in a right-wing state like yours, I doubt there's much interference with trade and the marketplace) and possibly private donations. Some of the less scrupulous states might use governmental slave labour. Who knows?
I agree that my nation is unlikely to be charging trade tariffs left, right and center - but there are still things like VAT(sales tax).

As for slavery, my nation does currently use violent criminals more or less as slaves at the moment - the idea of 'penal legions' has a certain apeal, at least for some disposable shock troops.


My formulae break down for this case, and I'd really like them to work, so I might add in an "Indirect Taxation" variable. I might have them on my site by tomorrow.

Rather you than me - its not something thats easy to calculate - but I look forward to seeing the results.