NationStates Jolt Archive

Is there any way to clear my region without getting myself deleted?

I'm the delegate of the region Mercia. We're looking into combining everyone into a fresh region, but I don't want to leave an inactive region behind. Our "founder" has left the game, but the original founder is still here as a new nation (this was at the point when new founders were appointed to replace dead ones). She (original founder) would support this, but she doesn't have power, and if I eject everyone, I'm gonna get deleted for greifing. Is there any way an arrangement can be made about this, or, failing that, could a mod tell me how many nations I can eject without greifing? (eg, could I eject some of the people who are 5-6 days inactive and wait for the 21 day inactive types to perish on their own?)

I wouldn't advise trying, though I will let the Game Mods answer this officially.

I just viewed the regional page for "Mercia". The instructions posted by Tactical Grace seem, to me, to be the safest way to go with the exception that I wouldn't try locking the Delegate out of Regional Control. Two reasons:

1) You might still need Regional Control.
2) I know that a Founder can't lock the Delegate out of Regional Control if the Founder is outside the region. A region with no Founder at all might not eb able to lock the Delegate out of Regional Control at all, but this is only supposition on my part.

Right, the last of the Sycamore-era nations have just died. And we are at our most depleted since...well, I think this actually sets a new record. Our lack of a Founder is interfering with our ability to recruit and retain nations. Plus, it opens us up to an attack any time we participate in any external actions.

We could undertake another uphill struggle to gain new participants, or we could take this opportunity, when most of us are quite active, to move to the new home that is offered to us. A lead clearly needs to be taken, and I am providing it.

My instructions are as follows:

- Spoffin, please change the password and keep it to yourself, change the Factbook Entry to include the gist of these instructions and then deny Delegate access to Regional Controls.

- All nations are asked to move to Mercia The Next Generation and endorse Spoffin and Tactical Grace when they arrive. The favour will be returned as per present arrangement.

- Playa Chk Is Back / WWW is the Founder, and you will recognise her as such. Spoffin / Tactical Grace remain in charge of defence/intelligence and one or the other should be elected Delegate, to ensure we remain active in UN matters.

- Spoffin may choose to add something to this, please consider it too.

- This will take a few days, but once this is done, we will be playing a major role in the life of a larger region, and there will be the same opportunities for external actions. Notification of such is usually sent by telegram, so stay active.

I hope this meets with the approval of the majority. I know it is sad to be leaving this place, I have served and led it for perhaps the longest of any nation here. But we will soon settle into MTNG, and it should be fun.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator

I wouldn't advise trying, though I will let the Game Mods answer this officially.

I just viewed the regional page for "Mercia". The instructions posted by Tactical Grace seem, to me, to be the safest way to go with the exception that I wouldn't try locking the Delegate out of Regional Control. Two reasons:

1) You might still need Regional Control.
2) I know that a Founder can't lock the Delegate out of Regional Control if the Founder is outside the region. A region with no Founder at all might not eb able to lock the Delegate out of Regional Control at all, but this is only supposition on my part.

Right, the last of the Sycamore-era nations have just died. And we are at our most depleted since...well, I think this actually sets a new record. Our lack of a Founder is interfering with our ability to recruit and retain nations. Plus, it opens us up to an attack any time we participate in any external actions.

We could undertake another uphill struggle to gain new participants, or we could take this opportunity, when most of us are quite active, to move to the new home that is offered to us. A lead clearly needs to be taken, and I am providing it.

My instructions are as follows:

- Spoffin, please change the password and keep it to yourself, change the Factbook Entry to include the gist of these instructions and then deny Delegate access to Regional Controls.

- All nations are asked to move to Mercia The Next Generation and endorse Spoffin and Tactical Grace when they arrive. The favour will be returned as per present arrangement.

- Playa Chk Is Back / WWW is the Founder, and you will recognise her as such. Spoffin / Tactical Grace remain in charge of defence/intelligence and one or the other should be elected Delegate, to ensure we remain active in UN matters.

- Spoffin may choose to add something to this, please consider it too.

- This will take a few days, but once this is done, we will be playing a major role in the life of a larger region, and there will be the same opportunities for external actions. Notification of such is usually sent by telegram, so stay active.

I hope this meets with the approval of the majority. I know it is sad to be leaving this place, I have served and led it for perhaps the longest of any nation here. But we will soon settle into MTNG, and it should be fun.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator
Thats basicly what I was planning to do. But I'm wondering about speeding up the process a bit, by (for example) ejecting a couple of dead nations who'd otherwise hang around for ages.

Also, I was wondering if it made any difference having the direct consent of the founder, as founders can eject as many people as they like.

Anyone?

Anyone?

I'll have to let a Game Mod answer this.

Just be patient. :wink:

--The Democratic States of Cogitation

Anyone?

I'll have to let a Game Mod answer this.

Just be patient. :wink:

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
Is fine.

I know you are waiting for a mod, hope you don't mind a small comment.

There should, and of course the mods will deny or agree with this, but there should be no problem with kicking out a couple of dead nations, as long as this is not excessive.

Again, very non-official. I just spend a lot of my time, as you may well know, watching the rules, and trying to keep track of them all.

There should, and of course the mods will deny or agree with this, but there should be no problem with kicking out a couple of dead nations, as long as this is not excessive.

Hmmm. I've been following the rulings as well, and my impression was that there's no distinction made between idle nations and active ones. Nations are dead when the server deletes them for inactivity. It would be very useful to get a clarification on this.

My personal impression is also that a non-invading delegate is allowed to boot a certain number of nations for whatever reason, with that number being a fair percentage of the total populace of the region. Think going up to 50% or so. It's vague in the sense that no formal % has been set, nor of what membership count this percentage should be calculated, and whether or not 'dummy puppets' count as well. That probably has to do with the possibilities for abuse (loopholes and such) if the rules were to be made that exact, plus they'd become very problematic to enforce as well.

There's two extreme cases to think of: Blue Moon's delegate got DEATed for point-blank clearing out the entire region, while other delegates sometimes boot a fair percentage and are not punished at all despite a lot of attention given to the happenings. (both were/are non-invading delegates). It's a blurry line. On the one hand one or two protesters (maybe even puppets from a rival region) should not be allowed to stop the will of the vast majority in a region, while on the other hand a relatively small group of nations 'in charge' cannot unilaterally declare what should happen to an entire region. There's lots of grey in between.

*also awaiting GM response on this*

Ballotonia

There's two extreme cases to think of: Blue Moon's delegate got DEATed for point-blank clearing out the entire region.
Yeah, well thats what I'm a bit worried about. Thing is though, clearly doing that was illegal, but was it because it was throwing out 100% of the region, or for throwing out 30+ people? (number or percentage basically)

What I mean to say is: is it okay to eject 5 people if they're the only ones left?

Maybe this should be moved to Moderation for a response?

Greetings.
This is Sycamore, who most of you will remember. I am due to die tomorrow, and thought that as a final act I would leave you all a message. It shall be left in Mercia, The New Mercia, and ‘Mercia The Next Generation’. Incidentally, the use of a colon would not have gone amiss in the last region name.

Firstly, congratulations to Playa Chk on her continued stupidity - it is heartening to know that she has not learnt from the incident in which the late C&W and I hacked into her other accounts. Thank you to her, too, for using the same password as before; it has made leaving this message much easier than I could have hoped.

So, to business. What is it that I have deemed important enough to log back on to Nationstates for, after an absence of almost two months? Well, my friends, the answer is simply this; betrayal. I visited Nationstates a few days ago, to check if I had ceased to exist, and was both shocked and horrified to see that a move to 'Mercia The Next Generation' was in progress, organised by none other that Playa Chk herself! I have many qualms with this, and would appreciate you doing me the honour of reading them and taking on board what I have to say.

After all I have done for Mercia, you, fellow Mercians, people I deemed worthy of the name, have decided to move, undoing the work I have done and destroying your region. When I became delegate, we were a region of but 17, and through the perseverance of myself and other loyal nations, we grew until we had reached the 70 nation mark. We were a nation of impressive proportions, feared and loved by many. And now I find you to be undoing this, and creating a new, highly inferior region!

You will all know that there is no love lost between myself and Playa Chk. Incidentally, I am mildly interested to discover that she has not improved in intellect or articulacy since my departure. She has created a region which, as well as having an extremely unoriginal name, will be the downfall of you all. It is no secret that I never approved of an alliance between Mercia and The New Mercia; after all, the latter was only created after a bitter feud between myself and my friends, and this illiterate fool. I took part in the alliance simply to save face; it was necessary for the survival of the region.

I hope that you are suitably ashamed of yourselves. Evility, which was founded by my dear friend, the late Craziness and Weirdnes, has prospered and shone. They are now 133 nations strong, and C&W is naturally proud of them all. I wish I could say the same for my own region, which will soon cease to exist. I shall never visit Nationstates again; it was a part of my life once, a part which was important to me and of which I was proud. Now, to find that we have merged, destroying the original Mercia, I can only record that I am bitterly disappointed in all who have ever seen fit to call themselves Mercians.

Sycamore, ex-UN delegate of Mercia.

The above is submitted without comment or observation.

Maybe this should be moved to Moderation for a response?

Greetings.
This is Sycamore, who most of you will remember. I am due to die tomorrow, and thought that as a final act I would leave you all a message. It shall be left in Mercia, The New Mercia, and ‘Mercia The Next Generation’. Incidentally, the use of a colon would not have gone amiss in the last region name.

Firstly, congratulations to Playa Chk on her continued stupidity - it is heartening to know that she has not learnt from the incident in which the late C&W and I hacked into her other accounts. Thank you to her, too, for using the same password as before; it has made leaving this message much easier than I could have hoped.

So, to business. What is it that I have deemed important enough to log back on to Nationstates for, after an absence of almost two months? Well, my friends, the answer is simply this; betrayal. I visited Nationstates a few days ago, to check if I had ceased to exist, and was both shocked and horrified to see that a move to 'Mercia The Next Generation' was in progress, organised by none other that Playa Chk herself! I have many qualms with this, and would appreciate you doing me the honour of reading them and taking on board what I have to say.

After all I have done for Mercia, you, fellow Mercians, people I deemed worthy of the name, have decided to move, undoing the work I have done and destroying your region. When I became delegate, we were a region of but 17, and through the perseverance of myself and other loyal nations, we grew until we had reached the 70 nation mark. We were a nation of impressive proportions, feared and loved by many. And now I find you to be undoing this, and creating a new, highly inferior region!

You will all know that there is no love lost between myself and Playa Chk. Incidentally, I am mildly interested to discover that she has not improved in intellect or articulacy since my departure. She has created a region which, as well as having an extremely unoriginal name, will be the downfall of you all. It is no secret that I never approved of an alliance between Mercia and The New Mercia; after all, the latter was only created after a bitter feud between myself and my friends, and this illiterate fool. I took part in the alliance simply to save face; it was necessary for the survival of the region.

I hope that you are suitably ashamed of yourselves. Evility, which was founded by my dear friend, the late Craziness and Weirdnes, has prospered and shone. They are now 133 nations strong, and C&W is naturally proud of them all. I wish I could say the same for my own region, which will soon cease to exist. I shall never visit Nationstates again; it was a part of my life once, a part which was important to me and of which I was proud. Now, to find that we have merged, destroying the original Mercia, I can only record that I am bitterly disappointed in all who have ever seen fit to call themselves Mercians.

Sycamore, ex-UN delegate of Mercia.

The above is submitted without comment or observation.
Theres already a thread in tech for this. I thought, maybe it should be moderation, but theres a technical issue (ie: hacking) involved as well.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=96000

Bump

Bump

Bump
Thanks Bal

There should, and of course the mods will deny or agree with this, but there should be no problem with kicking out a couple of dead nations, as long as this is not excessive.

Hmmm. I've been following the rulings as well, and my impression was that there's no distinction made between idle nations and active ones. Nations are dead when the server deletes them for inactivity. It would be very useful to get a clarification on this.

My personal impression is also that a non-invading delegate is allowed to boot a certain number of nations for whatever reason, with that number being a fair percentage of the total populace of the region. Think going up to 50% or so. It's vague in the sense that no formal % has been set, nor of what membership count this percentage should be calculated, and whether or not 'dummy puppets' count as well. That probably has to do with the possibilities for abuse (loopholes and such) if the rules were to be made that exact, plus they'd become very problematic to enforce as well.

Ballotonia

Truth is, I added the dead part simply because that was what Spoff said, that there were some dead nations that weren't active. It really doesn't matter if they are active or not, but dead nations are less likely to be a problem then live ones in terms of understanding why they were kicked. By dead, I took Spoff to mean there were nations that had been inactive for a couple of weeks.


The rules on this subject as I understand them:

It does not matter if it is an invader or a native delegate, you are allowed to kick a few nations out of the region. However, if you are an invader there are some things that you have to be more careful about (ie clear ban list, if setting password telegram any nations kicked). If you are a native, you don't have to worry about this, but you aren't allowed to go maniacle either. If you kick the entier region out, you will be called a griefer. If you only kick out a few, again these being nations who aren't active int he game again, you will likely be fine.

How many nations were you looking at kicking out?

i'm founder and ex-delegate of a region called The Welsh Highlands, and i told everyone to go and quietly kick out those people who are inactive that legal so just eject a few i would

There should, and of course the mods will deny or agree with this, but there should be no problem with kicking out a couple of dead nations, as long as this is not excessive.

Hmmm. I've been following the rulings as well, and my impression was that there's no distinction made between idle nations and active ones. Nations are dead when the server deletes them for inactivity. It would be very useful to get a clarification on this.

My personal impression is also that a non-invading delegate is allowed to boot a certain number of nations for whatever reason, with that number being a fair percentage of the total populace of the region. Think going up to 50% or so. It's vague in the sense that no formal % has been set, nor of what membership count this percentage should be calculated, and whether or not 'dummy puppets' count as well. That probably has to do with the possibilities for abuse (loopholes and such) if the rules were to be made that exact, plus they'd become very problematic to enforce as well.

Ballotonia

Truth is, I added the dead part simply because that was what Spoff said, that there were some dead nations that weren't active. It really doesn't matter if they are active or not, but dead nations are less likely to be a problem then live ones in terms of understanding why they were kicked. By dead, I took Spoff to mean there were nations that had been inactive for a couple of weeks.


The rules on this subject as I understand them:

It does not matter if it is an invader or a native delegate, you are allowed to kick a few nations out of the region. However, if you are an invader there are some things that you have to be more careful about (ie clear ban list, if setting password telegram any nations kicked). If you are a native, you don't have to worry about this, but you aren't allowed to go maniacle either. If you kick the entier region out, you will be called a griefer. If you only kick out a few, again these being nations who aren't active int he game again, you will likely be fine.

How many nations were you looking at kicking out?

I don't know yet, it depends how many move within the next week or so. I think its likely to be between more than 15 people.

i'm founder and ex-delegate of a region called The Welsh Highlands, and i told everyone to go and quietly kick out those people who are inactive that legal so just eject a few i wouldYeah, but you were the founder so it wouldn't matter.

Bump

The silence is deafening...

The problem I have with this is that you're basically left to make your own judgment call, risking that if a mod has a different judgment on the issue s/he could punish you for it. The rules really aren't that clear on this. While I would not expect exact boundaries to be given, at least a little elaboration on how such a situation is to be judged would help greatly.

I can tell you're really trying to play the games within the rules, but it's certainly not made easy for you.

BTW, I recall a similar situation in a different region (name withheld) where nations ended up being ejected too. The leadership who did that had a strategy of only booting one idle nation every so often. In the end only one nation deliberately wouldn't cooperate with the effort and was booted as well, but all nations booted still added up to about 25% of the original size of the region.

Your main problem is that Mercia is being looked at by a lot of outsiders, and everything you do is likely to be reported to the mods with a very negative slant added by whomever files the report. Sounds like a crapshoot on what could happen: fair or not.

Ballotonia

The silence is deafening...

The problem I have with this is that you're basically left to make your own judgment call, risking that if a mod has a different judgment on the issue s/he could punish you for it. The rules really aren't that clear on this. While I would not expect exact boundaries to be given, at least a little elaboration on how such a situation is to be judged would help greatly.

I can tell you're really trying to play the games within the rules, but it's certainly not made easy for you.

BTW, I recall a similar situation in a different region (name withheld) where nations ended up being ejected too. The leadership who did that had a strategy of only booting one idle nation every so often. In the end only one nation deliberately wouldn't cooperate with the effort and was booted as well, but all nations booted still added up to about 25% of the original size of the region.

Your main problem is that Mercia is being looked at by a lot of outsiders, and everything you do is likely to be reported to the mods with a very negative slant added by whomever files the report. Sounds like a crapshoot on what could happen: fair or not.

Ballotonia

Exactly. And I'm not well liked as a delegate by those outside the region (hard as it is to believe), so some people are gonna take it badly.

You're right, I do want to play within the rules. So just... game mod... please?

(Mercia is down to 24 nations, 15 active, 9 idle)

I'm sorry to use this innapropriately, but I'd really like an answer and its been about 4 days since I started the thread

MODALERT

Unless a Game Mod tells you differently, I'm going to advise you to leave the old region behind. If there are idle nations still lingering in it, then leave them be.

I think that a password will remain on a Founderless region (or a region with a dead Founder) even when there is no Delegate. Since you are an internally-elected Delegate, you can legally put a password on the region and change the World Factbook Entry asking everyone to move to the new region. Thus, the region empties out (eventually), and noone new comes in.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator

Unless a game mod says something, that is what I'm planning to do, but I really would like to know my options for sure because I can't get back very easily once I've done that.

bump

Sorry, I know this is a difficult question.

Unless a Game Mod tells you differently, I'm going to advise you to leave the old region behind. If there are idle nations still lingering in it, then leave them be.

I think that a password will remain on a Founderless region (or a region with a dead Founder) even when there is no Delegate. Since you are an internally-elected Delegate, you can legally put a password on the region and change the World Factbook Entry asking everyone to move to the new region. Thus, the region empties out (eventually), and noone new comes in.

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation
NationStates Forum Moderator

I understand this suggestion completely, and would not advise anything other, sort of.

The thing is, it has to be allowed for him to kick a few nations, that shouldn't even be too dificult of a question. We are allowed to kick a few nations for politcal reasons, it is just a question of how many. That seems to me to be the biggest reason to wait a GM answer.

Its difficult to put an exact figure on it though, it'd open up loopholes for greifers. They'd know exactly how many people they can eject etc.

In an attempt to actually get a game mod response....

MODALERT :arrow: Moderation

In an attempt to actually get a game mod response....

MODALERT :arrow: Moderation
Yeah, lets try that.

I didn't want to before cos... well, I swore I wouldn't post in Moderation anymore. :?

NM

:arrow: Moderation

MODALERT :arrow: Moderation

This has been answered many times before, in many different threads. The delegate does not have the power to eject everyone from a region - only the founder can do so. It is highly suggested that you ask everyone to move to a temporary region, allowing your current region to be recreated with an active founder.