NationStates Jolt Archive

Since regional delegates are the people who have the most support in their respective areas, then why can't the regional delegate who has the most support, over all be named as the Secetary General of the United Nations? It would add realism to the game.

Well, not a bad idea as regards a title for some nation (Two slit experiment?). However, would this SG have any powers, or would it just be a titular thing?

Well, not a bad idea as regards a title for some nation (Two slit experiment?). However, would this SG have any powers, or would it just be a titular thing?

Well, since Regional Delegates get 2 votes for everybody who has sponsorned them, then maybe the SG can get 3 votes for every Regional Delegate who votes the same way as they do? And maybe the SC can "veto" a bill, and require more delegates to approve, before it can become law?

I personally like it, although it possibly puts a bit too much power in one person's hands. However, I doubt a lot of people will agree, and I can't see the change being implemented

I personally like it, although it possibly puts a bit too much power in one person's hands. However, I doubt a lot of people will agree, and I can't see the change being implemented

Then perhaps we can hold monthly elections where anybody can run, provided they have a certian number of endorsements

I personally like it, although it possibly puts a bit too much power in one person's hands. However, I doubt a lot of people will agree, and I can't see the change being implemented

Then perhaps we can hold monthly elections where anybody can run, provided they have a certian number of endorsements

Good idea, but the only problem is that the Regional Delegates would be the ones with the most votes. To be fair, if a person is going to be SG, then they should relinquish their title as Regional Delegate, in an effort to be impartial and unbiased.

But the idea of having a SG is a good one.

Personally I've always viewed Enodia as the Secretary-General, because he rules on whether proposals are in order...like the Speaker does in the U.S. House, for instance.

I kind of like the idea althought the orginal idea would limit it instantly to a Pacific delgate, the other one would be cool, maybe any UN members can run without endorsements, to create more competition.

I kind of like the idea althought the orginal idea would limit it instantly to a Pacific delgate, the other one would be cool, maybe any UN members can run without endorsements, to create more competition.

That sounds cool. Maybe what they can do is let registered UN Nations from each region run to see who will represent that region in the elections for UN SG.... that way it won't always neccisarily fall to the person who has the most endorsements.

Next question....once a Sec. Gen has been elected, how long will he/she serve until the next election?

hmm maybe 2-3 weeks?

I kind of like the idea althought the orginal idea would limit it instantly to a Pacific delgatecompetition.

Now we want Francos to be SG of the UN too? :shock: :D

The idea is very good, we would just have to discuss exactly how much power this person would have, and where. I don't totally agree with giving him/her 3 votes for each endorser, as this would increase votes exponentially and this person alone could tip a vote.

Hmm, this is a really interesting idea. If it is to be someone, I think that it should be the player with the most endorsements, which will obviously be the Delegate with the most endorsements, and probably be the Delegate of one of the game created regions (though I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be FS at the moment). Part of the reason that I'd like it to work this way is easy of coding.

Toss this idea around a bunch, I'd be really curious to see if something good comes from it.

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SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

Well, not a bad idea as regards a title for some nation (Two slit experiment?). However, would this SG have any powers, or would it just be a titular thing?

Well, since Regional Delegates get 2 votes for everybody who has sponsorned them, then maybe the SG can get 3 votes for every Regional Delegate who votes the same way as they do? And maybe the SC can "veto" a bill, and require more delegates to approve, before it can become law?

That's a bad idea IMHO. Talk about concentration of power....Twoslit would have so much power it's not even funny.

Erk....I wish it didn't have to be the delegate with the most endorsements, it takes the fun out of wondering who it will be

Since regional delegates are the people who have the most support in their respective areas, then why can't the regional delegate who has the most support, over all be named as the Secetary General of the United Nations? It would add realism to the game.

What would the need be for such thing? What powers would they have? They could not be trusted with mod powers...

[Moderator Edit - Cogitation] 3 duplicate posts deleted. [/modedit]

This was suggested a couple of weeks back.

I say.
Menotlike.

The number og SG possible is not just finite, but one.

Delegates and founders are in theory infinite. (As in there is no end, not that they are all Loop. :P )

I like the idea of a Secretary General, but don't think that the SG should have veto power of any kind.

I have two general ideas.

1) The Secretary General is selected by Regional Delegates. The Secretary General has extra votes equal to the number of endorsements possessed by all Delegates that endorse the Secretary General. Whether or not a nation has to be a Delegate to qualify for Secretary General is something we'll have to consider.

2) The endorsement system is changed so that any UN member nation can endorse any other UN member nation, regardless of region. Only endorsements from the same region count towards the position of Delegate. However, all endorsements count towards the position of Secretary General. A Secretary General does not have to be a Delegate since someone could be the Secretary General just based on endorsements from outside the region, but not have any endorsements from within the region.

...

I'd like to see the Secretary General also have some extra influence in approving proposals on the proposal docket, but I'd have ot think this one over. Maybe count how many Delegates endorse the Secretary General and give the SC that many extra approvals for proposals?

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

I like the idea of a Secretary General, but don't think that the SG should have veto power of any kind.

I have two general ideas.

1) The Secretary General is selected by Regional Delegates. The Secretary General has extra votes equal to the number of endorsements possessed by all Delegates that endorse the Secretary General. Whether or not a nation has to be a Delegate to qualify for Secretary General is something we'll have to consider. I'd say this is good, except that may be too many endorsements for one person,I don't think a nation should have to be delegate to qualify, the way the SG is endorsed would be like the way proposals are delegate endorsed

2) The endorsement system is changed so that any UN member nation can endorse any other UN member nation, regardless of region. Only endorsements from the same region count towards the position of Delegate. However, all endorsements count towards the position of Secretary General. A Secretary General does not have to be a Delegate since someone could be the Secretary General just based on endorsements from outside the region, but not have any endorsements from within the region. This seems like too much of a change to the coding

...

I'd like to see the Secretary General also have some extra influence in approving proposals on the proposal docket, but I'd have ot think this one over. Maybe count how many Delegates endorse the Secretary General and give the SC that many extra approvals for proposals?

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

1) The Secretary General is selected by Regional Delegates. The Secretary General has extra votes equal to the number of endorsements possessed by all Delegates that endorse the Secretary General. Whether or not a nation has to be a Delegate to qualify for Secretary General is something we'll have to consider.

I don't like this. Let's say the Pacific delegates all decide to endorse Twoslit. He'd then have about 1000 votes on the floor (SG endorsements + EP endorsements + own vote)

2) The endorsement system is changed so that any UN member nation can endorse any other UN member nation, regardless of region. Only endorsements from the same region count towards the position of Delegate. However, all endorsements count towards the position of Secretary General. A Secretary General does not have to be a Delegate since someone could be the Secretary General just based on endorsements from outside the region, but not have any endorsements from within the region.

That would be odd and probably fairly difficult to code. For instance, I have 19 regional endorsements but I'd probably have quite a few more non-regional endorsements. How would these be displayed on the regional page? Also, how would the submission requirements be affected by this?

I'd like to see the Secretary General also have some extra influence in approving proposals on the proposal docket, but I'd have ot think this one over. Maybe count how many Delegates endorse the Secretary General and give the SC that many extra approvals for proposals?

Then we'd have to raise the approval limit, as the SG would have so many approvals that they might have almost unchecked power to bring proposals to quorum.


I still don't like this idea.

:idea:



What if you add together all of the endorsements the delegates that support the SG have, than divide to find the average number of endorsements held by his supporters, then multiply by two or something to get his number of votes,and just make it so when the SG endorses a proposal its worth 4 delegate votes

I still don't like this idea.
Ditto.

I still don't like this idea.
Ditto.
I like the idea if it's limited,(see my previous post)

Right now we're just tossing around ideas.

Cog made the good point, that if the SG is the delegate with the most endorsements, then the position is vunerable to invasions.

I like the idea of a Secretary General, but don't think that the SG should have veto power of any kind.

I have two general ideas.

1) The Secretary General is selected by Regional Delegates. The Secretary General has extra votes equal to the number of endorsements possessed by all Delegates that endorse the Secretary General. Whether or not a nation has to be a Delegate to qualify for Secretary General is something we'll have to consider.

2) The endorsement system is changed so that any UN member nation can endorse any other UN member nation, regardless of region. Only endorsements from the same region count towards the position of Delegate. However, all endorsements count towards the position of Secretary General. A Secretary General does not have to be a Delegate since someone could be the Secretary General just based on endorsements from outside the region, but not have any endorsements from within the region.

...

I'd like to see the Secretary General also have some extra influence in approving proposals on the proposal docket, but I'd have ot think this one over. Maybe count how many Delegates endorse the Secretary General and give the SC that many extra approvals for proposals?

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

Maybe not a Veto, but perhaps a SC can order a resolutioin to be re-voted...but just so that does not become an everyday thing, perhaps a SC can order a re-vote once per term?

Why do you say SC btw?

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

Since regional delegates are the people who have the most support in their respective areas, then why can't the regional delegate who has the most support, over all be named as the Secetary General of the United Nations? It would add realism to the game.

basically you are describing what Enodia does already, although I think a popularly elected person would be better, becasue as we all know the UN is a Democratic orginization IRL, and Enodia, no matter how good of a jorb he is doing, wasnt popularly elected.

I like the idea of a Secretary General, but don't think that the SG should have veto power of any kind.

I have two general ideas.

1) The Secretary General is selected by Regional Delegates. The Secretary General has extra votes equal to the number of endorsements possessed by all Delegates that endorse the Secretary General. Whether or not a nation has to be a Delegate to qualify for Secretary General is something we'll have to consider.




I am actually for this idea if there is a good answer for both A) how and B) Why. This point touches on how. I can’t say I agree with this at all, not that my O matters at all I know. It seems this could make the mega powers invincible in the UN. The UN Del already get more power then the other regions, would this count their votes twice?




2) The endorsement system is changed so that any UN member nation can endorse any other UN member nation, regardless of region. Only endorsements from the same region count towards the position of Delegate. However, all endorsements count towards the position of Secretary General. A Secretary General does not have to be a Delegate since someone could be the Secretary General just based on endorsements from outside the region, but not have any endorsements from within the region.



Interesting, there is potential here.


I'd like to see the Secretary General also have some extra influence in approving proposals on the proposal docket, but I'd have ot think this one over. Maybe count how many Delegates endorse the Secretary General and give the SC that many extra approvals for proposals?


And here is the Why. They should have additional powers, otherwise why exist—but they should not have the same censorship powers as a mod. So that leaves the Q, why have a UN Sec Gen?

basically you are describing what Enodia does already, although I think a popularly elected person would be better, becasue as we all know the UN is a Democratic orginization IRL, and Enodia, no matter how good of a jorb he is doing, wasnt popularly elected.

Yeah, but we'd not know whether a popularly elected person would be able to perform the tasks to satisfaction. With Enodia, seeing as he's hand-picked by the Admin, we at least have some sort of assurances that he'll perform in his task...

basically you are describing what Enodia does already, although I think a popularly elected person would be better, becasue as we all know the UN is a Democratic orginization IRL, and Enodia, no matter how good of a jorb he is doing, wasnt popularly elected.

Yeah, but we'd not know whether a popularly elected person would be able to perform the tasks to satisfaction. With Enodia, seeing as he's hand-picked by the Admin, we at least have some sort of assurances that he'll perform in his task...

I agree, I don't like the idea of a player doing the job of a mod. Mods have to be unbiased, players don't. If the Sec Gen didn't like one person, they could snowball all of their UN RES proposals.

Still think there could be something here, but not sure what job thyey could have if not that of the UN MOD.

2) The endorsement system is changed so that any UN member nation can endorse any other UN member nation, regardless of region.

Right now endorsements held while not in the endorsee's region are removed by the server update. For the plan above to work they'd have to remain until explicitly withdrawn. This has some major consequences for invasions and regional defenses (there's that old problem again: UN Representation and (the banning portion of) regional controls are mixed up into one system).

Also, the secretary general would end up being whomever is best at endorsement swapping in all feeder regions and the RR (or more specifically: whomever will be ALLOWED to endorsement swap in the feeder regions by the respective delegates). Why reward this? I think the feeder regions already have an enormous influence on the UN as it is, simply by the sheer amount of endorsement swapping going on.

Ballotonia

Why do you say SC btw?

This was a misspelling on my part that seems to have perpetuated, I meant to say SG.

Right now we're just tossing around ideas.

Cog made the good point, that if the SG is the delegate with the most endorsements, then the position is vunerable to invasions.

I made this point when talking to Salusa on IRC. I didn't make it here.

If the position of SG depends upon being Delegate, then the Secretary General can be overthrown by a legal invasion (or a griefing invasion, for that matter). I don't know if we want the headaches associated with complaints to the mods about "The SG was removed by a greifing invasion. Could you put him back, please?"

So, I would prefer to see a SG position set up that wasn't vulnerable to invasions nor had any additional power in invasions. This includes not giving the SG access to Regional Control for any region just because he/she is the Secretary General.

2) The endorsement system is changed so that any UN member nation can endorse any other UN member nation, regardless of region.

Right now endorsements held while not in the endorsee's region are removed by the server update. For the plan above to work they'd have to remain until explicitly withdrawn. This has some major consequences for invasions and regional defenses (there's that old problem again: UN Representation and (the banning portion of) regional controls are mixed up into one system).

It is already possible to invade a region by having a bunch of nations sit in the same preparation region and endorsing each other, and then they all move into the same target region all at once (or, more to the point, in-between server updates). My suggestion, as quoted above, would merely make it possible to prepare an invasion without having everyone move into the same preparation region beforehand.

Now, I don't have any firsthand experience launching invasions. In your opinion, do you feel that this would be a significant difference?

Also, the secretary general would end up being whomever is best at endorsement swapping in all feeder regions and the RR (or more specifically: whomever will be ALLOWED to endorsement swap in the feeder regions by the respective delegates). Why reward this? I think the feeder regions already have an enormous influence on the UN as it is, simply by the sheer amount of endorsement swapping going on.

Good Point. I'll have to think on this; I don't have a response right now.

Another idea being tossed about by Salusa was giving the SG additional votes only in approving proposals but no additional votes when a resolution is on the main UN floor. Regardless of whether or not the SG has additional votes when a proposal hits the floor, I suggest that the SG get one additional approval for each Delegate that endorses the SG.

Touching on an old problem, many Delegates tend to be inactive when it comes to the proposal docket. I'd like to see the proposal approval system changed so that Delegates can approve or disapprove proposals on the docket. A proposal reaches quorom if it has more approvals than disapprovals (or if there's more than 1 approval for every 4 disapprovals, or whatever ratio you want to set). That way, inactive Delegates don't count one way or the other. However, if we do this, then we're going to have to seriosly rethink how much influence the Secretary General has in this regard.

In any event, I don't want the SG being able to veto proposals outright (and this includes a consideration of the influence balance; the SG should be a significant factor in whether or not proposals pass, but not the sole factor.)

2) The endorsement system is changed so that any UN member nation can endorse any other UN member nation, regardless of region. <snip>

That would be odd and probably fairly difficult to code. For instance, I have 19 regional endorsements but I'd probably have quite a few more non-regional endorsements. How would these be displayed on the regional page? Also, how would the submission requirements be affected by this?

Endorsements are never shown on the regional page, anyway, so I assume you mean national pages. Endorsements can be broken down into in-region and out-of-region endorsements and displayed separately.

As for submission requirements, we could say that you still need 2 in-region endorsements to submit proposals, or we could say that any 2 endorsements will suffice. To prevent someone with bad writing skills and delusions of grandeur from going off to form their own region and then asking a couple of newbies in one of the feeders to endorse them, I would suggest keeping it limited to two in-region endorsements. But, we could set this either way.



--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

Another idea being tossed about by Salusa was giving the SG additional votes only in approving proposals but no additional votes when a resolution is on the main UN floor. Regardless of whether or not the SG has additional votes when a proposal hits the floor, I suggest that the SG get one additional approval for each Delegate that endorses the SG.

Then we'd have to raise the approval limit, as the SG would have so many approvals that they might have almost unchecked power to bring proposals to quorum.

Touching on an old problem, many Delegates tend to be inactive when it comes to the proposal docket. I'd like to see the proposal approval system changed so that Delegates can approve or disapprove proposals on the docket. A proposal reaches quorom if it has more approvals than disapprovals (or if there's more than 1 approval for every 4 disapprovals, or whatever ratio you want to set). That way, inactive Delegates don't count one way or the other. However, if we do this, then we're going to have to seriosly rethink how much influence the Secretary General has in this regard.

This I support.

In any event, I don't want the SG being able to veto proposals outright (and this includes a consideration of the influence balance; the SG should be a significant factor in whether or not proposals pass, but not the sole factor.)

The main question is how much of a factor there should be.

2) The endorsement system is changed so that any UN member nation can endorse any other UN member nation, regardless of region. <snip>

That would be odd and probably fairly difficult to code. For instance, I have 19 regional endorsements but I'd probably have quite a few more non-regional endorsements. How would these be displayed on the regional page? Also, how would the submission requirements be affected by this?

Endorsements are never shown on the regional page, anyway, so I assume you mean national pages. Endorsements can be broken down into in-region and out-of-region endorsements and displayed separately.

As for submission requirements, we could say that you still need 2 in-region endorsements to submit proposals, or we could say that any 2 endorsements will suffice. To prevent someone with bad writing skills and delusions of grandeur from going off to form their own region and then asking a couple of newbies in one of the feeders to endorse them, I would suggest keeping it limited to two in-region endorsements. But, we could set this either way.

No objection here to that.

---Post deleted by NationStates Moderators---

It is my belief that the UN should have equal representation. It would be really hard to overtake a current SG and it would take a long time. Too long so that if we got a bad one we'd be stuck with it.

Are you referring to the "endorsements from inactive nations" problem? Because I would imagine that if we had a bad Secretary General, then people would unendorse him/her.

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

Hmm, this is a really interesting idea. If it is to be someone, I think that it should be the player with the most endorsements, which will obviously be the Delegate with the most endorsements, and probably be the Delegate of one of the game created regions (though I'm pretty sure that it wouldn't be FS at the moment). Part of the reason that I'd like it to work this way is easy of coding.

Toss this idea around a bunch, I'd be really curious to see if something good comes from it.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling
PGP: 0x0604DF3E

I would Guess either Matt Duck or Two slit, woudl be it at the moment, with me in third possibly.