NationStates Jolt Archive

If I endorse--or withdraw my endorsement--from my regional delegate in the middle of a vote that they've already participated in, will that change the vote count?

If so, that's a potential (though risky) way for non-delegates to increase their voting power, though not quite to the level of two votes (since they only have the options, with their second vote, of abstaining or voting the way the delegate wants). Is doing this considered acceptable, or an abuse?

As far as I am aware, if the Delegate has cast their vote on a Resolution, withdrawing endorsements will not change the weight of their vote (ie number of votes they cast). Similarly, if endorsements are added. I have not personally experimented with this, however.

What a great question. I'm going to find this one out.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/salusasecondus/salusasecondus2.jpg
SalusaSecondus
Tech Modling

Is it the number of votes or the number of UN members in a region that dictates delegate power?

It is the number of endorsements held by the delegate.

Find it yet Sal?

If for some reason you can't I shall ask CG or Raster to temporarily de-endorse me (Lamentus is on vacation of anybody actually went and looked at my endorsements).

My understanding is that say if you have 10 endorsements,then one is withdrawn,you'll still have 10 verified endorsements until the UN update,and that once you put in your vote thats how many votes you have,if your endorsement number changes and you then withdraw your vote on a resolution and then vote again that would probably update it.This is just a guess though.

...which would be a good explanation of why the number of 'verified endorsements'(The number of endorsements at the last daily update time) is published on the bottom of a Delegate's endorsement list.

I would guess that it is the number of endorsements held by the Delegate upon the deadline for the proposal.

But is that current endorsements or verified endorsements?

Apparently, delegate votes are much more dynamic than I thought:

Please look at the current delegate votes listed. (emphasis mine, and abbreviated using [...])

Votes Against: 7491: , Greenterra[4], Communist Likon[18], Stupid Commie Phrases[2], [...], Zinkoland[3], Stinky Midgets[7], The twoslit experiment[562], Blarggistan[3], Baxterland[2], [...], Regamus[2], HaMeliss[2], Die Elite Reich[5], The twoslit experiment[553], Sagesquagmire[6], Glatisant[8], FoxTopia[2], CoOpera[3], Egotistical Empire[11], Lifelong Dreamers[2], Uberwald[5], Jubiliationville[2], Diablo_NL[5], Canardnardna[2], Himeberg[2], Dicksonica[4], Hellenism[6], Arnarchotopia[34], Guajiro[2], Pirates and Pixies[3].

Admittedly, Ballotonia's motto is "Vote Early, Vote Often", and I did vote against this resolution myself (puppet) so I'm not complaining at the direction this is taking, but to give a pacific delegate the ability to vote twice seems a tad... um... excessive? ;)

Ballotonia

That leads to this addendum...

If a region changes delegates, and both the old and the new delegate votes on a resolution, would they both count? Would one count? If they votes differently, would this cancel each other out? If a region ceases to exist and the UN members fro the first region moves to another region, does the vote from thef first region still count, and the second region is added on?

I believe that only the valid delegate upon the deadline counts, and then only for the number of (verified) endorsements he carries. However, I would assume that the update would be immediately previous, so the difference between verified and actual should be minimum.

I believe that only the valid delegate upon the deadline counts, and then only for the number of (verified) endorsements he carries. However, I would assume that the update would be immediately previous, so the difference between verified and actual should be minimum.

What if my delegate and I vote opposite? For instance - Asmodium Votes yes and he's the region delegate with one endorsement, and the nation of enslaved humans who endorsed Azmodium votes "no"?

Is it two votes yes, and one vote no? Or one vote yes, and one vote no? Or is it - oh dear - I've gone blind

//ack thud

As a test, I recently unendorsed my Delegate, Cherry Cola. He now has 10 endorsements, but 11 verified endorsements. Cherry Cola is listed in the "Delegate Votes" section has counting for 12 nations (himself + 11 endorsements, I presume).

I believe that only the valid delegate upon the deadline counts, and then only for the number of (verified) endorsements he carries. However, I would assume that the update would be immediately previous, so the difference between verified and actual should be minimum.

What if my delegate and I vote opposite? For instance - Asmodium Votes yes and he's the region delegate with one endorsement, and the nation of enslaved humans who endorsed Azmodium votes "no"?

Is it two votes yes, and one vote no? Or one vote yes, and one vote no? Or is it - oh dear - I've gone blind

//ack thud

If the endorser and the Delegate vote in opposite directions, then the endorsers vote counts AGAINST and the Delegate's extra vote given to him/her by the endorser counts FOR (in your example).

As another example, in my region, if Infidelia, Democratic Ideals, Kutuzov, Kaliko, Almroha, and Cherry Cola (Delegate: 11 verified endorsements) vote FOR and Zeke, Lyhee, Guapovia, Ellantra, and I vote AGAINST (with everyone else abstaining), then it's a total of 17 FOR and 5 AGAINST from "The Realm of Ambrosia". Note that only Almroha and Ellantra in this example do not endorse Cherry Cola.

Infidelia (1) + Democratic Ideals (1) + Kutuzov (1) + Kaliko (1) + Almroha (1) + Cherry Cola (1 + 11 endorsements) = 17 FOR

Zeke (1) + Lyhee (1) + Guapovia (1) + Ellantra (1) + Cogitation (1) = 5 AGAINST

--The Democratic States of Cogitation
"Think about it for a moment."
Founder of The Realm of Ambrosia

Erm - does that mean a region with a delegate gets double votes?

Delegate with 200 endorsements is 200 votes - the 200 endorsers support the vote making another 200

Total of 400 votes?

Erm - does that mean a region with a delegate gets double votes?
Delegate with 200 endorsements is 200 votes - the 200 endorsers support the vote making another 200
Total of 400 votes?

401 actually (delegate has own vote as well), but yes. The way to have more voting power in the UN is to endorse a delegate who votes along with you (or to be such a delegate).

Ballotonia

Regarding the UN - I've noticed that if a delegate is replaced after having approved a bunch of proposals - ALL of their proposal approvals go away after the game update.

Erm - does that mean a region with a delegate gets double votes?

Delegate with 200 endorsements is 200 votes - the 200 endorsers support the vote making another 200

Total of 400 votes?

That seems to be the implication.

This is a hoot. This far in the game, and no one has a clear understanding of how the UN actually works, vote-wise.

I agree, as in real life, the mechanics of the UN mechanism has hidden complexities. But I do not think this quirk has any significant effect. A UN Delegate with, say, 20 endorsements can vote on a Resolution easily enough, but persuading the 20 endorsing nations to add their vote will be difficult, as half will probably be infrequently active. You could only increase your vote like this if everyone is aware, and motivated enough to do it. Which, from what I have seen, it pretty rare.

This is a hoot. This far in the game, and no one has a clear understanding of how the UN actually works, vote-wise.

The number of votes is easy. Everybody gets one vote, with delegates getting an additional vote for each endorsement they have.

It gets a tad more complex when people start moving around and purposely try to use the limitations of the implementation of the UN system to get extra advantage.

It's possible to sit in a region with two UN members, and have them both endorse a proposal (as if they both were delegates). Likewise, these two can gather 4 votes to cast (instead of the intended maximum of 3) by carefully manipulating the system as it runs through the various updates. Thing is, it's a lot of effort, and not many people wil think the extra UN votes are worth it. Neither do I. Right now, what does or does not pass in the UN isn't a big influence on the game as I see it.

When it comes to region controls however, similar implementation issues matter a great deal. There's a big difference between having and not having access to region control. It can be the difference between having a fun region with 100+ nations, and having 0 nations with worries about what will happen when the next update comes around to delete the region altogether.

Ballotonia

As you guys seem to have figured out, it's verified endorsements that count. Once or twice a day, the server checks through your nation's current endorsements, makes sure they're valid, and locks them in as your verified endorsements. This happens because if the server had to verify them each time someone wanted to know how many endorsements you had, the CPU demand would kill it.

If a Delegate gains or loses verified endorsements, this is reflected in the number of votes he or she carries in a UN resolution vote.

However, there was, and probably still is, a bug in the list of UN resolution Delegate votes -- the one you view to see how the Delegates have voted. If has voted for or against a resolution, then the number of his/her verified endorsements changes, then the Delegate withdraws his/her vote and re-votes, his/her name can show up twice: once with the old number of endorsements and once with the new (correct) number. Effectively, the old entry is not removed.

This list is not tied to the actual data for registered votes, so the bug doesn't affect the actual number of votes cast. It only affects how the list looks.

I know it's off-topic... but whoa! Violet posted!

http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/assets/God.jpg

Ok, I will bother this thread no more.

Thank you much much [violet].