NationStates Jolt Archive

The Demot Footballing Federation along with the Football Association of Az-cz
present their bid to host the 38th edition of the World Cup.


Scorinator:

The scorinator we will be using is the Schia-Qutar International Scorinator used in the very successful World Cup xXx, the special thing about this scorinator is that it is a ratio based scorinator, thereby assuming that a team with 20 KPB Points is twice as good as one with 10 KPB Points and four times as good as a team with 5 KPB Points.

Competition Format

Ideally qualifying will be done in ten groups, with the number of teams per group dependent upon the number of entrants. The top two of each group will directly qualify for the Cup Proper, with the #3 and #4 placed teams in each group proceeding to an home and away playoff, which will be seeded. Depending on the numbers this could change but the main idea is to get an even number of groups and an even number of teams in each group. 82, including hosts, is ideal, but we will work around any number.


The tournament Proper will be the typical eight groups of four, with the top two entering the knockout round.

RP Bonus

RP will contribute a significant but not overwhelming amount to the scorination process. The amount of bonus given will be dependent upon quality, quantity, creativity, and originality in no certain order. A nations RP bonus will be continued on into the Proper.


Style Modifiers

The range of modifiers will be (-3) for the most defensive to (+3) for the most offensive. The effect of the modfiers is to alter the formula to increase or decrease the chance of a goal, and it does this for both teams, so attacking teams will be more likely to score but also are more likely to concede, and the defensive teams may be less likely to concede but will also be less likely to score themselves

Special Features

Amongst the attributes we will provide this cup are handcrafted schedules that are more balanced than the schedules often produced, with variation between groups. We will also be having some special RPs, tending towards Fantasy as the two nations are comprised of mainly Druids & Gnomes.

Complaint #1: 3rd and 4th teams go to a two-leg playoff. It's not much, but it does add an extra two days that aren't really needed.

On the other hand it will provide a short break between the qualifiers and the proper and allows for a bit of balancing between groups.

To clarify, I meant more that 4th-placers could go through. *feels like a veteran hardliner*

Very important question:


WILL I WIN?



If so, then I'll support you all of the way.



If not, we'll have to work out a deal ;).


Anyway, it looks good to me. I'm not big into hosting yet (key word: yet), and I hope that I will be able to participate in the near future.

What do you mean by "handcrafted"?

Instead of each group having the same qualifying schedule, ex 1v8, 2v7, 3v6, 4v5, on MD1, they will all be different.

Is that going to make things more interesting, or just complicate figuring out who plays who when you're trying to determine if you can make it through?

By handcrafted I mean that I will write the schedule myself so as to avoid things like one team having four home games in a row or something like that. Each group will actually have the same schedule, but because the order of the teams will be randomized it will lead to the schedules being functionally different. That's how I did it for WC33 and it worked great. Not having a day when all the 1 seeds play all the 2 seeds makes for a more varied cup. But like I did last time I will provide the schedules in detail so that you can see your opponents easily.

By handcrafted I mean that I will write the schedule myself so as to avoid things like one team having four home games in a row or something like that. Each group will actually have the same schedule, but because the order of the teams will be randomized it will lead to the schedules being functionally different. That's how I did it for WC33 and it worked great. Not having a day when all the 1 seeds play all the 2 seeds makes for a more varied cup. But like I did last time I will provide the schedules in detail so that you can see your opponents easily.

Just make sure you specify whether its seeded order or the set order...or just put ranks in parenthesis. :)

Uh-huh, all seems to be in order. I do like it when hosts introduce special RP themes. This fantasy element would suit Bettia, what with it being populated by millions of Jinns and Ifrits (genies, spirits, demons etc - whatever you wanna call em).

How are you going separate teams with the same number of points on the table? Head to head results or goal difference, or some other system?

A couple of questions:

- Why do you feel that the SQIS formula is superior to the NSFS default, which appears to provide a little less predictability, and potentially more interesting results?

- Why do you feel carrying over RP bonuses with the pre-qualifying KPB points is a better choice than using the post-qualifying KPBs (or additionally, employing a hybrid formula, such as the one used by myself and Ad'ihan this cup)?

Thank you for your time and consideration

nothing against the other bid (which is equally impressive), but if I had a vote, this is my pick.

EdIT - thanks to some damned button, I'll have to edit the reasons why:

Strong RP Bonus: I didn't do too well in the last Cup, and not because I wasn't there for the entire time. Clearly, ranks should be given the first priority, but part of the experience is not so much to "win" by RPing the best post, but to create lively and entertaining posts. I think a strong RP Bonus will at least encourage it, if not endorse it so properly.

Random Matches: It makes the schedule more hectic, but as long as someone takes responsibility for it, it adds to the random factor a little bit. It means that you're not necessarily playing against the same team in the qualifiers in the same turn order, meaning that you can't predict the "best day" to RP something out based on a linear schedule. Of course, some advance notice will be helpful too, but it's another thing to add to the RP bonus (not the bonus itself, but more so the interactive and entertaining bonus).

Scorinator: I'm not certain how NSFS works, but I know it doesn't use KPB - and I personally believe that any good scorinator has to factor this value in its score process. I'm not the statistician, but it seems to me that your KPB score is a more accurate indication of your actual performance ability, and I'm personally trying out calculators that will hopefully enhance this factor. The bid makes note of this, and if I had any vote, I would not give my vote to any bid that did not include KPB as part of its score equation. And I suppose for that reason, thank God I'm not a voting member.

nothing against the other bid (which is equally impressive), but if I had a vote, this is my pick.

EdIT - thanks to some damned button, I'll have to edit the reasons why:

Strong RP Bonus: I didn't do too well in the last Cup, and not because I wasn't there for the entire time. Clearly, ranks should be given the first priority, but part of the experience is not so much to "win" by RPing the best post, but to create lively and entertaining posts. I think a strong RP Bonus will at least encourage it, if not endorse it so properly.

Random Matches: It makes the schedule more hectic, but as long as someone takes responsibility for it, it adds to the random factor a little bit. It means that you're not necessarily playing against the same team in the qualifiers in the same turn order, meaning that you can't predict the "best day" to RP something out based on a linear schedule. Of course, some advance notice will be helpful too, but it's another thing to add to the RP bonus (not the bonus itself, but more so the interactive and entertaining bonus).

Scorinator: I'm not certain how NSFS works, but I know it doesn't use KPB - and I personally believe that any good scorinator has to factor this value in its score process. I'm not the statistician, but it seems to me that your KPB score is a more accurate indication of your actual performance ability, and I'm personally trying out calculators that will hopefully enhance this factor. The bid makes note of this, and if I had any vote, I would not give my vote to any bid that did not include KPB as part of its score equation. And I suppose for that reason, thank God I'm not a voting member.

NSFS can use a KPB-like point system or a rank system. It's all in your input files.

hmmm... I've tried that, and I must be stupid not to have figured it out... how?

two places, Han:

in the top line, make sure there is a line that says "points-based"

additionally, for each team, you're supposed to put in their rank, style modifier (if one), etc. the "rank" is where you put their KPB points.

No scorinator since the KPB era began has, to my knowledge, not used the KPBs in some way, and anyone who didn't would be assured of not being allowed to host. This isn't even a question, frankly.

in the top line, make sure there is a line that says "points-based"

Clarification: "point-based", with no s. More specifically, the line should read:

<league ranktype="point-based" maxpoints="100">

...where you replace 100 with what the "maximum" value is. When using NSFS for a World Cup, I always put the point-value of the highest-ranked team here.

No scorinator since the KPB era began has, to my knowledge, not used the KPBs in some way, and anyone who didn't would be assured of not being allowed to host. This isn't even a question, frankly.

I think this might be a slight misinterpretation of Han's statement - I think what he was saying was that (he believed) the scorinator could only use the sequential ranks, which are derived from the KPB points, but he was looking for use of the point values themselves.

And with that said, I'll stop hijacking this thread.

A couple of questions:

- Why do you feel that the SQIS formula is superior to the NSFS default, which appears to provide a little less predictability, and potentially more interesting results?

- Why do you feel carrying over RP bonuses with the pre-qualifying KPB points is a better choice than using the post-qualifying KPBs (or additionally, employing a hybrid formula, such as the one used by myself and Ad'ihan this cup)?

Thank you for your time and consideration

In case these were lost, I'm re-posting so the bidder(s) can answer, if they please.

- Why do you feel that the SQIS formula is superior to the NSFS default, which appears to provide a little less predictability, and potentially more interesting results?

It provides some stability following what I consider a wacky tournament. I know that the teams who "should" of qualified did, but when looking at individual results, they were very much out there, and that can also be deduced when looking at the semi-finalists of the tournament.

- Why do you feel carrying over RP bonuses with the pre-qualifying KPB points is a better choice than using the post-qualifying KPBs (or additionally, employing a hybrid formula, such as the one used by myself and Ad'ihan this cup)?

I feel that it is more fair to those who contributed to the competition in the qualifying stages than those who just posted their rosters and an RP here and there while waiting to progress to the Proper.

It provides some stability following what I consider a wacky tournament. I know that the teams who "should" of qualified did, but when looking at individual results, they were very much out there, and that can also be deduced when looking at the semi-finalists of the tournament.
Can you give us any proof of these claims?


I feel that it is more fair to those who contributed to the competition in the qualifying stages than those who just posted their rosters and an RP here and there while waiting to progress to the Proper.
Would you be giving the hosts an RP bonus in the WC proper to make up for not qualifying? If so, how much?

Also, would that not put more emphasis on RPing for performance gain, which is completely against the entire spirit of the World Cup?

It wouldn't put more emphasis on RPing for success. What it would do is reward people who contribute a lot to the cup. People who put up crap RPs just to get points won't get good RP bonuses. People who put up good RPs will get the benefit. It's not our job to judge their motives, just their contributions. If they are RPing to get the bonus, but they right RPs that enrich the cup that should still be rewarded. Rewarding the people who contribute to the community makes perfect sense.

Can you give examples of what you'd consider each? What is your attitude towards dull TV-show and Match-report RPing?

I don't have time to do so now, but I will try to post examples later.


What is your attitude towards dull TV-show and Match-report RPing?

Well let me state that I'm not in the camp that TV-show and match reports are necessarily bad. I think it's possible to have match reports that are interesting in that formula. The question is how much detail you put into it, what that tells about your society, the match in general and so on. C&M writes what are for the most part match reports but would get big bonuses because they're really interesting match reports. So the answer is it depends on the individual post. A poor match report will get a small bonus a good match report will get a good bonus. There's no other way to explain it than that.

What about posts that are essentially the same every time?

It depends. I think it's very hard to get max bonus every time with a post that never changes. I wouldn't give myself a max bonus. I think I would give myself a good bonus but not as much as someone like you or AIF as examples. But I also will say that if you use the same baseline ideas but come up with interesting things in them each time you can get a good bonus. Basically the question is how interesting is it to read? Using the same formula everytime decreases the interest but if you provide good content within that it can still be a quite interesting read. So again the best answer I can give you is it depends.

It wouldn't put more emphasis on RPing for success. What it would do is reward people who contribute a lot to the cup. People who put up crap RPs just to get points won't get good RP bonuses. People who put up good RPs will get the benefit. It's not our job to judge their motives, just their contributions. If they are RPing to get the bonus, but they right RPs that enrich the cup that should still be rewarded. Rewarding the people who contribute to the community makes perfect sense.
Everything after the first sentence contradicts the first sentence.

No it doesn't. The focus is entirely different. If people don't want to RP I'm not trying to encourage them. If they do RP though, they ought to be rewarded. If people write crap RPs just to get the bonus it won't make much difference. The only way to get a good bonus is to write a good RP. If you do that, regardless of why you did it, you should be rewarded as a benefit to the community.

No it doesn't. The focus is entirely different. If people don't want to RP I'm not trying to encourage them. If they do RP though, they ought to be rewarded. If people write crap RPs just to get the bonus it won't make much difference. The only way to get a good bonus is to write a good RP. If you do that, regardless of why you did it, you should be rewarded as a benefit to the community.
Which means people will be putting in more effort just to get a bonus.

Remember, the point of the RP bonus is not to 'reward' people, but to give people some incentive to RP. Ideally, we wouldn't have an RP bonus at all.

Remember, the point of the RP bonus is not to 'reward' people, but to give people some incentive to RP. Ideally, we wouldn't have an RP bonus at all.

That's what you think the point of the RP bonus is. We have a different opinion. I do think the RP bonus can be used to reward people. The idea of using it as an incentive to RP is exactly what your arguing against. I honestly don't care why people RP. It doesn't make any difference to me. But I do think the cup is more fun if there are RPers involved and believe in having a system that makes that more likely. I think this cup was lessened because there was hardly any RPing in the proper and very little to bounce RPs off of. I don't belive in free for all randomness.

That's what you think the point of the RP bonus is. We have a different opinion. I do think the RP bonus can be used to reward people. The idea of using it as an incentive to RP is exactly what your arguing against. I honestly don't care why people RP. It doesn't make any difference to me. But I do think the cup is more fun if there are RPers involved and believe in having a system that makes that more likely. I think this cup was lessened because there was hardly any RPing in the proper and very little to bounce RPs off of. I don't belive in free for all randomness.
That is what the RP bonus was created for, years before you joined. It is not just my opinion.

We agree that the cup is more fun if there are RPers involved. However, if you give too much of a reward to RPers, you will have some very wacky results. Sure, the RPers will do well, which I am sure you will be very happy about. But you will be opening the door for some results which will make a mockery of the rankings. And in the end, the cup will be MORE random.

I will also re-post my questions, which have yet to be answered.



It provides some stability following what I consider a wacky tournament. I know that the teams who "should" of qualified did, but when looking at individual results, they were very much out there, and that can also be deduced when looking at the semi-finalists of the tournament.
Can you give us any proof of these claims?



I feel that it is more fair to those who contributed to the competition in the qualifying stages than those who just posted their rosters and an RP here and there while waiting to progress to the Proper.
Would you be giving the hosts an RP bonus in the WC proper to make up for not qualifying? If so, how much?