NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC: Since Allanea has requested that we separate the whole "storefront" matter, or more specifically the matter of settling his debt with Phoenix Corporation, I thought I would oblige him and make a separate thread.

for reference purposes, the earlier matters mention took place in this thread:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=519025


now, to address a couple comments made by Allanea in that thread.

1. No Allanean dollar exists. As such, it is not humanly possible for you to create 'downward' pressure on a currency that has not been used in any of those transactions.

2. It is not possible for Pilon to posess 250 trillion Menelmacari Credits worth of Allanean stuff. Simply becuase this would be greater then the total value of the Allanean economy (the Menelmacari credit is about 2 Universal standard dollars). The entire Allanean GDP is, according to NStracker, $350 trillion dollars. Thus it's not possible for Pilon to posess $500 trillion of Allanean assets. Further, Pilon explicitly stated before that he posessed 250 trillion USD worth of Allanean currency.

At no time had any Allanean private currency been transferred to Pilon (since Pilon stated explicitly he does not accept it), but rather a variety of national currencies (whatever currencies I received payment in from the different purchasers, like Roania and USSNA).

Roania in particular has repeatedly stated that he does not use any Allanean currency to make his payments, here or elsewhere. As to this point, the Allanean government had received 130 trillion USD from different nations' businesses, in the currencies of these nations. Under no exchange system known to the counters does this constitute $36 trillion credits. 130 trillion is what has been transferred to Pilon.

OOC: I decided the storefront stuff makes this thread look stupid. Pilon, assume all money so far earned from sale of Allanean stuff has been transferred to you, that is, $126 trillion. I will likely deal with the rest of the stuff later when I am not busy being invaded by the necrons.


1. No Allanean dollar exists. As such, it is not humanly possible for you to create 'downward' pressure on a currency that has not been used in any of those transactions.

There are multiple Allanean Currencies in use, while Siri may have mentioned the Dollar for ease of writing, any Allanean Currency would be affected by this pressure.

This probably needs a more in depth explanation so here is an attempt to explain what is going on here.


First off, exchange rate are determined by the demand for a specific currency in correlation to the demand for another type of currency.

Demand for a currency is typically affected by the following factors:

Economic Factors like Government Deficits or Surpluses, Surpluses and deficits in trade of goods and services reflecting the competitiveness of a nation's economy (IE, holding a massive trade deficit will devalue your currency), Inflation Levels, and Economic Growth.

Politics Factors, the stability of a government affects the values of a nation's currencies.

and various other factors, but these are the big ones.

It is also affected by the speculative demand for a currency, which is basically what the expected level of demand for a type of currency will be.

Speculative Demand is affected by interest rates of banks and by outside factors that affect a nation's economy.

In choosing what type of currency to hold, people are also concerned that the currency will retain its value in the future. Most people will not be interested in a currency if they think it will devalue. A currency will tend to lose value, relative to other currencies, if the country's level of inflation is relatively higher, if the country's level of output is expected to decline, or if a country is troubled by political uncertainty.

What does all of this mean?

It means that when people are paying you money for assets in your nation, they should be projecting a loss on their investments because the speculative demand for your various currencies will be very low, that is why PC pulled out in the first place.

It is also why Siri shut down trading with your currencies, because she will be losing money as those currencies become devalued.

now for some numbers. It is a fairly commonly accepted fact in NS that MCs are a powerful currency. The Universal Dollar should have an exchange rate of about 2:1 MC, whereas a more powerful currency like the Pi would have a better exchange rate, say 1.5:1

Since we requested the sum total of 250 Trillion Pis in MCs, that would make the bill approximately 167 Trillion MCs.

As I look over most of the posts, it seems fair to assume that you have been paid in Universal Dollars, so we will assume that is what you were paid in. 125 Trillion Universal Dollars into MCs would convert to about 62.5 Trillion MCs of the 167 Trillion owed. Leaving you with a debt of 104.5 Trillion MCs still left to pay out by the time those assets we sold you, as well as most everything in Allanea, would start seeing serious depreciation in value compared to the international exchange rates.

With all the problems in your nation, it wouldn't be out of line to see some serious Inflation in your nation due to the devaluation of your local currencies.


2. It is not possible for Pilon to posess 250 trillion Menelmacari Credits worth of Allanean stuff. Simply becuase this would be greater then the total value of the Allanean economy (the Menelmacari credit is about 2 Universal standard dollars). The entire Allanean GDP is, according to NStracker, $350 trillion dollars. Thus it's not possible for Pilon to posess $500 trillion of Allanean assets. Further, Pilon explicitly stated before that he posessed 250 trillion USD worth of Allanean currency.

While I used the NSTracker to determine the amount of money owed, it should be noted here that most of NS does not use the values in these Economy Calculators because they do not reflect on the IC affects of RPs conducted. I'm sure it's convenient for your, with your frequent wars and internal problems, to call up the economy calc and see that your nation is still going strong, however the reality is that most people do not recognize this.

That being said this is how a nation's GDP is determined:

GDP = Gross Domestic Product

GDP = consumption + investment + government spending + (exports - imports)

basic definition for these terms:
consumption = goods and services purchased by the end user after taxes and production costs are factored in

investment = production over time, specifically in this equation, everything produced in that year (this one is kind of complex to explain, trying to keep it simple)

government spending = anything purchased by the government and taxes collected

The big thing to point out in this is that GDP is determined on a yearly basis, and PC has been investing in Allanea for longer than one year.

This is one area where the economic calculators fail in NS. There is no real way for the GDP figure shown in the calculator to know that I was investing some of what would be my GDP into your nation, raising your GDP (mostly in the form of interest created from Bank Loans).

Also another point of clarification, I did not state I owned 250 Trillion USD worth of Allanean assets, I stated the sum total of assets at the time the bill was sent to Allanea was 250 Trillion Pis


At no time had any Allanean private currency been transferred to Pilon (since Pilon stated explicitly he does not accept it), but rather a variety of national currencies (whatever currencies I received payment in from the different purchasers, like Roania and USSNA).

I never stated you sent me Allanean currency. If you were going to send me a payment however, you would have to send it in the form of MCs. It is assumed that the initial payment pretty much drained any MCs you had in your nation, most of which would have been used to back up your own currencies. If this is not the case feel free to dispute it. Whatever form of currency you paid in (for simplicity sake lets assume everyone converted it to USD to pay you) had to then turn around and convert that to MCs in order to pay me.


Roania in particular has repeatedly stated that he does not use any Allanean currency to make his payments, here or elsewhere. As to this point, the Allanean government had received 130 trillion USD from different nations' businesses, in the currencies of these nations. Under no exchange system known to the counters does this constitute $36 trillion credits. 130 trillion is what has been transferred to Pilon.

Yeah... about Ro and his currency... contact me on IRC, we have to discuss some things, Ro needs to contact me too.

Allegedly all of that money he paid you in was counterfeited (or at least that was what he was claiming in IRC) and we need to get that worked out, because someone is getting the short end of the stick on that deal, and its most likely either Ro or Allanea.

130 Trillion USD converted (see above) comes to 62.5 Trillion MCs of the 165 Trillion owed in total.


So to sum things up here, Allanea has paid a portion of the total debt, some nations/corps are getting shafted as their investments depreciate (hope they can write this off as a charity) and Allanea is facing an upcoming economic slump, massive inflation, and on top of being invaded is in generally bad shape unless some form of stability can be achieved, the remaining money paid quickly, and likely a whole bunch of foreign investment is made into the Allanean infrastructure.

Okay. I see it as largely pointless to further argue about the details but essentially I owe you, according to you, around 100 trillion MC. I do not intend to argue (I thought it as around 120 trillion USD, but let's not bicker, that ain't the point).

The point is, let's have some form of payment settlement worked out, and I'll start paying you once the dust from my Final Coup (TM) settles down.

OOC:
What I'm more concerned with ATM is helping you understand the impact on your economy, not just the bill, but now the Ctan thing, is causing.

Think post WW-II Germany, or post-US invasion Iraq.

From discussion on IRC: Pilon has its money - or enough to keep it happy - already.

Steps:

Pilonese foo's buy Allanean banks, attaining a near-monopoly.
Allanean suckers use these banks. These banks, as Allanea appears to lack a national bank, store their own bullion and foreign currency to back the money they produce.
Pilonese foo's go "Argh, runaway!" and loot the vaults of these banks. They cart off all the gold, foreign currency, diamonds and whores, or whatever it is that backs Allanean currency with them. Resulting in interesting effects:
The money of these banks is suddenly worthless.
The money of everyone who has any money (be it in savings, current or business accounts) there is now worthless.
It's likely people will try and get this worthless paper/whatever anyway, causing runs on these banks, violence and riots. Whatever valuables are in shops will disappear by fair means or foul. I pity anyone working in the other banks.
Allanea and Allanean businesses can't afford jack shit internationally. And will need to sell stuff to recover its assets (I suggest some of its titanic military arsenal and assets from its colonies)

Allanea now has almost no internationally recognised fluid wealth. It's a good time to be an asset stripper in Allanea.
Pilon essentially has its money, give or take.
Allanea is currently as poor as a church mouse.

OOC: Just a quick point of clarification.

I made a mistake, loans are not assets, only the money backing up the banks is. So essentially after clearing out the vaults Allanea's debt is filled, everyone investing is helping recoup the losses, minimize the damage to the bank's currency value.

Ally, contact me in IRC please.

Pilon, you might have missed it, but I very clearly decided that there was no chance I forged it. I paid in the universal dollar, same as everyone else.

OOC: Allanea, I'd like to talk to you about this on AIM. I'm on pretty frequently. Maybe I can help, IC or otherwise. Or maybe you don't want my help, in which case... nevermind.

So let me get this straight.

My economy is in absolute mess due to Pilon creating a centralized banking system in Allanea and then raping it.

But I owe Pilon no money at all.

And - according to this - about 30% of the loss has already been recouped by... selling bits of the formerly-Pilonese assets to the people that bought them.

Additionally, whoever had not been using the Allanean Pi (the currency that Pilonese-owned banks used) is hopefully less fucked.

Mmm.

I can work with this.

Great Depression, the Allanean Way!

In fact... The Allanean Great Depression.

Xanthal, I'll be happy to accept your help.

P.S. An Allanean Great Depression... with union strikes... and gangsters... *drools*

From: The Office of His Majesty, King Alexander I, Monarch of Skinny87 And Her Colonies
To: Allanean Ministry of Finance

I will be blunt in this communique. Relations between Allanea and the Grand Monarchy have never been on the most stable of ground. At several points in our nations shared history, we have come to the brink of total warfare, only to back up when both sides saw the light of common sense. With this brinkmanship, most often caused by the interventionist folly of the previous government.

However, with relations thawing between our two nationstates, and the Grand Monarchy expanding in a number of areas, economical areas being a priority, your economical depression comes at a fortuitous time for both of us. In return for complete ownership of any profits reaped from the companies invested in, the Grand Monarchy and several associated private conglomerates, will invest several Trillion Dowlands into the recovery of the Allanean economy via stocks and shares in various companies; these companies would primarily have to be in the Defense sector of the Allanean economy.

I hope that this offer will be accepted, for it is a generous one. We may have been former enemies, but in these desperate times, I have the feeling that Allanea needs all the purchasing power it can obtain.

OOC: Xanthal, the Common Bank just saved WBI Inc.‘s ass in Allanean, I am forever indebted to you. :D

IC:
We Buy It Inc. National Headquarters in Liberty-City

A large room occupied by an equally large computer screen and table was occupied by several men, all dressed in casual business attire.

They were visibly irked and annoyed at the situation, and remained so until the blue screen on the computer changed to a live video feed of Chief Executive Officer Steven H. Miller, possibly the wealthiest man in the world.

"Ok gentlemen, I know you have a reason to wake me up at 4am, and I want to know it." Said Mr. Miller. He was visibly annoyed bordering on angry, although his tone remained neutral.

"Sir, to put it bluntly, the majority of the Allanean economy has collapsed, the Phoenix Corporation, basically our biggest and only competitor in the Allanean market, besides CBBC, has basically pulled out, basically taking money from the banks they own and totally and utterly devastating the value of currencies used in Allanean, and they demand money from the Allanean government to recoup their 'losses'." Responded one of the business men, he seemed to be the leader.

"I see, good thing we use the Common Credit for our transactions, has a very stable exchange rate too. Anyway, how have our banks been taking the hit? I assume the worst." Respond Mr. Miller.

"Actually, they've been taking the loss very well, we've had a lot of investors that use non-Pilon affiliated currencies take their funds from other banks and invest it in ours, also, the several Allanean companies have taken out very large loans from our Apollo Banking and Securities, some may not be able to pay it back, so I suspect some foreclosures are in order, especially on the smaller ones."

"Hmm, good good, you're authorized to buy up former Pilonese Assets, you have access to the 'slush fund', I'll negotiate directly with the Allanean Government."

The business men were near shock, the 'slush fund' was a $264 trillion CC saving-checking fund of doom, to be accessed only liberally or in times of emergency, it also earned a nice 2.5% fixed interest rate per year!

"Yes sir, we shall do our best." Responded the business man, Mr. Miller nodded and the screen went blank.

------------------------------

All Around Allanea

We Buy It Inc. liquid assets in Allanea totaled nearly $74 Trillion NSD, earning $1 Trillion NSD yearly. Of course the Skyians that owned We Buy It Inc. weren't stupid enough to use the comparatively low valued and easily counterfeited NSD, they used the Common Credit, a high valued, stable, and widely used currency supplied to We Buy It Inc. to be used in all international transactions.

A message was sent to the Common Bank in Xanthal, petitioning for an emergency purchase of $200 Trillion Common Credits, hopefully this would be granted, allowing We Buy It Incorporated to increase the amount of liquid assets available to them in this situation. But for now they had to operate off of their $264 Trillion Common Credits.

Throughout Allanea, companies that officially had zero dollars worth of liquid assets thanks to the Phoenix Corporation were being either foreclosed on (if they had loans from We Buy It Inc owned banks) or bought out, which was the main case, Bana Mining and Refining Ltd. was snatching up huge amounts of mineral deposits, mining and refining companies in Allanea.

Black Gold Corporation was having a field day, it had long boasted the biggest profit margin in We Buy It Inc., and had wisely put that money away for someday to come. Well, that someday was today. They were literally having a field day, snatching up refineries and oil companies like a fat kid snatches up a cup cake.

Common Credits from We Buy It Inc. owned companies flooded into the Allanean economy as fast as the Phoenix Corporation could pull out. In certain cases it was a mere hour or so after PC raped a bank until We Buy It Inc. snatched it up.

Companies that refused to yield to We Buy It Inc. oppression usually had their stock holders coerced into selling their mostly worthless stock, usually giving WBI Inc. a majority share. Hostile Takeover Inc. troops became the debt collectors of Apollo Banking and Securities, giving foreclosure notices to companies. They also rushed to companies with offers form other foreign states, offering them more money and letting them keep their jobs.

Soon $97 Trillion Common Credits worth of Allanean Corporate Assets were in the hands of various We Buy It Inc companies, and the 'slush fund' had been depleted by nearly 1/3, down to around $167 trillion NSD, putting $97 Trillion Common Credits into the Allanean Economy, a worthy price to ensure WBI Inc. supremacy over the Allanean Market, boosted by this rush of confidence, Yum Yum Food Services and Ultra Food Manufacturing Corporation even contacted Cute Bunny Burger Corporation, some of their local franchises had most likely collapsed under the economic shockwave, and We Buy It Inc. found the door to the Allanean Food Services Market blown wide open, so they offered to buy these franchises and absorb some of the debt

They also looked to expand the recently acquired "Church's Chicken" into the previously impenetrable market.

Apollo Banking and Securities asked CBBC to purchase all available stock in CBBC, as well as assets, WBI Inc. had their eye on the jewel of Allanean Capitalism.

---------------------------------
We Buy It Inc. International Headquarters, North Point, The Silver Sky

Mr. Miller paced around his office, looking for the right words to use in his message to the Allanean Government, his secretary looked nervously from her computer, she had never seen Mr. Miller so anxious and worried in her career as his secretary, a whole 10 years.

He then turned to her with a smile. "Emily, I hope your wrists are warmed up."


To: Allanean Government
From: CEO Steven H. Miller, We Buy It Incorporated
RE: Major Offer

Hello Allanean Government! You have been stricken by corporate piracy of the very worst degree by the Phoenix Corporation. However, rather then pull out and leave your nation in a worse position, We Buy It Inc. has a very lucrative offer for your nation.

We are will to offer you $334 Trillion USD of Precious Metals, you are to take this to Apollo Banking and Securities and exchange that for $167 Trillion Common Credits [1 CC = 2 USD], this should be sufficient to cover your entire debt in one payment, for financial purposes we ask you to take equal amounts of this to twenty different Apollo Locations in Allanean, to lessen the load on the bank. These locations are included with this message.

The banks should have your money within the day, as it was sent before this message was, also, should you accept, please provide a location for the transfer of the precious metals to take place. All we ask in return are tax breaks, and government preference, we shall reap our other rewards [profits, various companies, increased production, larger market share] through the through the rightful road of capitalism, not lobbying the government for purchases of companies. In fact, we are happy to tell you that we have increased our market share in Allanean by 75% in the last few hours.

Also, we would like to purchase large amounts of Allanean Military surplus; the money from such purchases should help you re-ignite your economy while allowing us to sell them at inflated prices, a win-win situation for both of us.

I shall let this mull over this message for a while; I have a corporate takeover of former Phoenix Corporations assets in Allanean to lead.

O'Reabs International Airport, Havenica Spizani

Dozen of Military Surplus transport aircraft were lined up outside the cargo loading area as heavily guarded trucks rolled up behind them, passing thier loads onto the planes, the observers from outside the airport fence would see that the cargo were vast pallets of Porkmarks, millions of twenty porkmark bills, tens of millions, it was a vast sum of money in any estimation, and it was even now headed for Allanea, ready for a massive spate of acquisitions in light of the near-total economic crash in that nation.

Allanea
The Confederate Owned Employers in Allanea, who had so recently purchased a large part of the National Confectionary Industry, had been held up by money made at home, and had thus survived, they were injured, but not critically. Now they sent hundreds of people out into the allanean countryside in armoured vans with guards, carrying billions in Porkmarks, the same money that was being flown in even now, they would approach farmers who were worried about the property and food prices would be affected, and they would buy there land, at below the pre-crash market rate, but better than could be expected to find if the crash continued as it was going to, the farmers would become for the time being, tenant farmers, able to continue farming but protected from the repo men by the Spizanian National Economy.

OOCness: You guys may want to wait until I can post again (and, incidentally, until I can talk to Allanea on IRC) before doing all that... Suffice to say; it's a touch premature. TSS especially. In the same manner, hundreds of trillions seems... extremely excessive. You're welcome to retcon that stuff now, if you like, or let it stand. But you may not get what you want...

For a start, if it's at all legal - hell, even if it isn't - there will be an immediate price freeze by executive order, possibly with martial law to enforce it. Buying land and such at below market prices will not be recognised as legitimate, and those attempting to enforce such claims will be arrested.

OOC: I've already talked to Allanea on IRC today, we talked about it and he ok'd it. Hundreds of trillion is a bit excessive, but Allanea is one of the largest markets in the world, and it's OPEN.

Also, if anyone brings FT type tech into this, I'm out.

OOC: I've already talked to Allanea on IRC today, we talked about it and he ok'd it.
And I'm going to slap him for advancing this plot by days on me with no warning... Aaaanywayy....
Also, if anyone brings FT type tech into this, I'm out.
The recession was caused by mind control sattellites and Pilon taking the money to pay for super-trains on Mars. Bye. :p

For TSS (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12415649#post12415649)

Especially:

Then there were generous donations being made to cover the costs. She was tempted to tell the ‘We Buy It’ group to take their precious metals, and their commanding letter, and choke on them. However, doing that would not only shatter public confidence, and right now, that wasn’t practical. She wondered where precisely they had found so much precious metals; it was a laughably vast amount.

Her reply was essentially ‘There is no debt. Do you still want to give us money for other, more essential, economic purposes.’