NationStates Jolt Archive

Okay, guys. This is apparently going to involve lots of people, be long, and has a potential of going all wrong if we are not all extra careful to avoid such things. I again request people to avoid pre-emptive mass-nuking of God’s Own’s nation, or other Reich nations, unless you have it cleared with the player.

This is a page about my navy. (http://z12.invisionfree.com/Allanea/index.php?showtopic=4) Of particular interest are the Primary Force Projection fleet and the first three Haven Domination fleet, composed of 1,600 ships in total. Somewhere out there are also immense amounts of combat submarines of the 5th and 6th HDF’s, but they’re not attacking God’s Own, but headed somewhere completely different, namely spreading out around the Reich continent in small teams – not that this is publicly known.

Please post numbers of fleets, ORBATs, explanations, and so forth here.

Also: The thread is open.

The only two things I request (being the attacked party) are:

1. No FT. Many of the roleplayers in the thread, are, unlike me, PMT/MT only, and moving in with gravitic gunships of doom will probably leave them stranded.

2. No mass-nuking a nation without clearing it with the player before posting. This is posted due to the fact that at least two people (who know who they are) already suggested they would carpet-nuke God's Own.

I apologize to everybody if this causes any trouble.

My 2nd Saharistani Fleet, the destroyers and frigates aren't that revolutionary. With the exception of the Oddly configured Cruisers. Those are filled with powerful Microwave generators designed to confused missiles, bring them down, and offensively, they can induce a powerful electrical current in a ship from over 10 kilometres away, overloading electronics, detonating shells and missiles. However, it requires prolonged exposure to the beam and it has a large downtime as it charges its array of supercapacitors.

1 Feathermore Class Superdreadnought
2 Arastaqis class Attack Dreadnoughts
3 Argentine class Galleon
4 Pathfinder Class Dreadnoughts
-56 Red Square Class Arsenal Ships
6 Taníat class Anti-Aircraft Warfare Battle Cruisers
4 Indestructable class Aircraft Carrier
-8 Red Square Class Arsenal Ships
23 Calculus Class Cruisers
5 Oddly-configured Calculus Class Cruisers
31 Illium class Guided Missile Destroyers
65 North Sea Class Frigates
29 Frozen Class Antisubmarine warfare Frigates
35 Tenerife class SSH
45 Tango class Submarines
55 Pepperbox Logistical Support Ships
102 Barbour Class Transport Ships

A few destroyers will accompany the transports to land my radiological warfare units, while the remainder will sail with Allanea to destroy God's Own Fleet.

Speaking of which, where are they and what can I do?

This may help (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12075808&postcount=30)

I don't have very much of my stuff statted at all, unfortunately, so I'll try to describe how my equipment works in my posts.

And [tag].

Even though I am one of those FT nations with grav-ships of destruction, I'm popping in to post some reality checks. First off, there's a saying Amateurs study tactics, generals study logistics. Why is this? First of all, all combat forces require supplies, everyone knows this. Tanks require fuel and shells, infantry require food and ammunition, among other things. Heck, even my grav-tanks require supplies to operate correctly, but that's a whole other story.

We tend not to think of supply lines when considering naval warfare, but let me tell you, they exist. In terms of fuel, not every ship in a fleet is nuclear powered. Most smaller vessels still use older methods of propulsion, oil burning engines that produce steam that turns the propeller shaft. I won't get into why a lot of ships still use steam turbines, because it is beyond my meager knowledge. But as you can imagine, even a cruiser is going to burn through a lot of oil when running at high speed.

So, how the hell do you refuel these ships when you can't dock them? You send out smaller vessels that are essentially floating supply depots. These ships range from tankers to cargo ships. Now, as you can also imagine, even these ships can't supply a large task force for any significant length of time, and beyond that, what do you do with these floating bombs when you engage the enemy? You have to protect them with some of your combat ships.

Now, what about resupply, because eventually those ships are going to run dry on fuel, remember, not only do they have to feed the hungry warships, but they also have to lug their own considerable weight around with the larger ships. A fleet generally went one of two paths. They either stopped at locations along route for "coaling" (from the days when warships had coal fired engines), now this is inherently dangerous with even one ship. She's a perfect target, unable to move, take evasive action, carriers can't turn into the wind to launch aircraft, and the list goes on. In fact, the USS Cole was attack by terrorists while she was coaling.

So, right then and there you limit the range of your ships. Yes, you might have nuclear powered battleships and carriers, but your fleet will either have to leave its smaller "screen" ships behind, or the entire kit will have to turn back to port after a certain amount of time at sea. And remember, more combat ships you have, the more supply ships you have, more supply ships you have, the bigger target they are. Somewhat risky in the days of guided missiles, no?

Not to mention that you have to have a friendly resupply base nearby, or you have to have supply ships making shipments from the nearest supply base to a prearranged location with your fleet. This is bloody risky if you consider that enemy submarines, small attack craft and planes will be hunting them. Why do you think the United States had to Island hop in the Pacific?

Thelas, I don't see a problem. The RL US has about 400 ships in it's navy.

I assume that NS nations, being richer, bigger, and so forth, can have bigger navies. As long as the other player accepts it, there's no problem, if there is one, I tone it down.

I'll post descriptions later, as I don't have specific stats for everything.

But most of my equipment runs on either fission or fusion power.

Right, but my point is that the logistical tie-ups don't go away with more ships, they just get worse.

But, if no one has an issue with it, I'll go back to observing.

Right, numbers increase the supply number.

I'll state this right out here now, as I've no problem with logistics and RPing them when needed. I use large transports (nuclear powered, still) to move large amounts of supplies when ships in the fleet run down to 30% of original supplies. This includes jet fuel, ammunition, food, etc.... I also have an understanding of the limited maneuvering when transfering supplies. If I get attacked in those conditions, well, shit happens. That's how it'd normally go down.

Don't worry, your logistics rant didn't fall on deaf ears.

Can I make the mildly incredible assumption that dropping off mines and torpedoing poor innocent little Reich merchantmen isn't going to result in nukes suddenly flying off towards me, and be correct in that assumption?

Rosdivan :
Not from God's Own, ours are reserved for the Allaneans. What my cohorts do in response I have no control over.
I'm not posting any stats for most of God's Own's warships because they're all real life types which I named in the previous post, so you can look them up yourselves, bar the Mordred, which is only loosely based on Germany's battleship concept, the H-44.
Not the H-Class mind, the H-44, which was its' bigger and meaner brother.
Even the Mordreds, at a svelte 170kt are tiny by the over-compensating standards of NS pseudo-Modern Tech, carrying 10 21" guns and numerous VLS pods retro-fitted onto the ship.
The same applies to the Bismarcks and Prinz Eugens, think of how they re-fitted the Iowa(?) for Gulf War One.
Numbers those attacking from the West are facing are listed in the post, those approaching from the East are facing approximately 2000 vessels of the same types, a sizeable portion of the eastern Reichsflotte having been detached to Syskeyia.
Any minute now someone is going to scream blue murder about the numbers and the logistics of this.
A few points in prior response:

Firstly, God's Own's technology is very much about being solid state, as few moving parts as possible make it harder for the monkeys in uniform operating it to break things.

Secondly, logistics are primarily a factor for offensive militaries. A defensive force can set up supply dumps, as well as vectoring production directly to the military, which is what God's Own does.

Thirdly, I say this with all due respect, but the Reich has been a power in this game longer than most of your nations have existed, meaning that God's Own's industrial and military production and organisation are an order of magnitude larger than your own.

What does this mean?
It means I will point-blank not accept any claims by people involving themselves in this to any sort of instant-win capability or vast military superiority, especially those basing their (specious) claims on calculators.

Thus, the only NS items of relevance to me are the quality of your RP and, to a lesser extent, the Mil-ranking per capita, used as a yardstick by the reputable for exactly what priority an entity places on defence.
God's Own is in the low hundreds in the world and is one of the smaller Reich powers.
Bear this in mind before you choose to widen the scope of the war.
I may not particularly like Allanea but I also anticipate his agreement with the point I'm trying to make, that this will be a slog for all the entities involved, not a quick and dirty lolz-mai-bomberz-pwn-j00 II thing, even if I have no intention of winning.

Can I make the mildly incredible assumption that dropping off mines and torpedoing poor innocent little Reich merchantmen isn't going to result in nukes suddenly flying off towards me, and be correct in that assumption?

I wouldnt bet on it.

Having worked with the Reich for the better part of my early NS history, the one thing you can count on is that the Reich/Metus/Arda will almost always over-react. That's the one thing you can count on. It's perfectly within their character and their Role-play. If you shoot up a random Merchanter, you will get nuked by someone within the Reich.

Things might have changed since then, but judging by Iesus's comment, the more things change, the more they stay the same.

First off, there's a saying Amateurs study tactics, generals study logistics.

It's wrong, mind you. Low-ranking field officers study tactics because they need to understand the ins and outs of actual combat, while generals study strategy [of which logistics is one component] because their job is to plan on a much larger scale. A Sergeant might not know how to supply five divisions with engine spares, but a General wouldn't be any better at telling you how to assault a machine-gun nest or clear out a building.

Bottom line, pretending logistics are better than tactics because higher ranking officers study them is just silly.

I won't get into why a lot of ships still use steam turbines, because it is beyond my meager knowledge.

It's because oil-powered ships are cheaper to build, cheaper to operate and can use existing infrastructure. In the case of subs, they're also quieter.

IRL, several treaty-agreed 'nuclear free zones' also forbid all nuclear powered vessels from using port facilities within them.

But as you can imagine, even a cruiser is going to burn through a lot of oil when running at high speed.

Got some numbers? I have.

Now, as you can also imagine, even these ships can't supply a large task force for any significant length of time

The Second World War disagrees with you on that minor point. As does the fact that oil can be economically transported by ships with oil-burning engines. You don't need that much power if you're just travelling in a straight line. An Arleigh Burke can travel 4,400 nautical miles without refuelling, the whole lot at 20 knots, and at 18 knots an Oliver Hazard Perry can manage 5,000 nautical miles. That's enough to cross the Atlantic twice.

In fact, the USS Cole was attack by terrorists while she was coaling.

That was because she wasn't designed to engage a small boat that had got in close to her. She wasn't helpless, she just didn't have the right weapons for the job.

And remember, more combat ships you have, the more supply ships you have, more supply ships you have, the bigger target they are. Somewhat risky in the days of guided missiles, no?

No, actually. There's either going to be so many that destoying a couple won't make a difference, or they're likely to have point defence and probably dedicated PD ships and escort carriers to go with. Also, for every shot the enemy fires at the resupply ships in a naval battle, that's a shot not fired at the combatants. Since the combatants are by far the more dangerous of the two in an actual engagement, they'd be the ones taking all the hits because if you don't shoot at the ones that are shooting at you, they tend to win.

Not to mention that you have to have a friendly resupply base nearby, or you have to have supply ships making shipments from the nearest supply base to a prearranged location with your fleet.

As noted, you need a friendly resupply base within twice the width of the Atlantic. Unless you're playing full-scale NS-sized oceans, which hardly anyone does, you'd be fine.

Why do you think the United States had to Island hop in the Pacific?

Why do you think Japan didn't have to island hop to hit Pearl?

I don't have very much of my stuff statted at all, unfortunately, so I'll try to describe how my equipment works in my posts.

And [tag].
[OOC: Czar, I thought you were on hiatus.....]

As a note, the Imperium Corporation (aka Steel and Fire) is slightly PMT, partly because its military doctrine is based around "Utterly destroy whoever the enemy happens to be (it can change in literally minutes), preferably while looking really powerful". Therefore, its military contains a lot of ridiculously over-powered, over-armoured, over-armed, and over-crewed vehicles, such as 5000 ton tanks and battleships one and a half kilometres long. In addition, there are about 72 million people in the various branches of the military; this means about 800+ million people in logistics, and over 1.2 billion in production; i.e. the entire economy is based around war. I roleplay the obvious disadvantages of this system—for instance, if war, either real or imagined, ceases for any reason, the entire economy will collapse, the populace will revolt, and the nation will be utterly destroyed. Also, if we lose, results will be far more catastrophic than they would be for a normal nation. Citizens live in extreme poverty, living upon military rations and wearing military uniforms (because nothing else is produced); they don't revolt primarily because they've been conditioned not to and they're brainwashed into thinking that people elsewhere are even worse off, without jobs or shelter or anything else the government affords them. If there were no war, no enemy against which they could direct their hate, it would be turned against the Steelian government, resulting in what would quite likely be the bloodiest clusterfuck in history. So therefore the more private doctrine is "Don't lose".

I know this is a bit wanky, but I try to roleplay the disadvantages as well as the advantages of such a system.

As a side note, all Steelian ships are nuclear powered, just like how all Steelian rifles use the same calibre, and ships use similar armour schemes, etc. It's all standardised to make things easier for the soldiers. The Imperium Corporation uses NBC weapons with alarming frequency, but as they're here to gain more workers, land, and resources they likely won't do so, coincidentally in accordance with GO's and Allanea's wishes.

If anyone has serious problems with this I can moderate my stats a little bit. My enlisteds are only 1.5% of the population, although that requires about 40-50% more simply in the industries to support them; which I believe is standard. I'd like to see some RL statistics, however, just to make sure. As you can tell I haven't exactly worked this out perfectly quite yet.

The Khailfah al Muslimeen is joining this war to defend Allanea,a member in the Sovereign League... IC post coming soon.

1st Expedition Army Group under the command of Flag Rank General Humayun Ismial Rahman(currently base in India)
61st Army under the command of Major General Fawaz Akhras
62nd Army under the command of Major General Nazim al-Kudsi
63rd Army under the command of Major General Mustapha Hadji
64th Army under the command of Major General Mario Carlito
65th Army under the command of Major General Josip Metod
66th Army under the command of Major General Hakim Kenta
67th Army under the command of Major General Isa Alptekin
68th Army under the command of Major General Jameel Harish Debdan
69th Army under the command of Major General Firdos Ramesh Jaffer
70th Army under the command of Major General Ali Abdul Yuesf

Ex of the Army core
40,000 men arm with AK-108 and RPGs
800 MAD.IV Imperator Main Battle Tank
1000 T-90
1200 BMP-4(Troop transport)
1400 M38A1 CTLAV( Troop Transport)
600 Jaguar 2 Tank destroyer [with TOW]
200 G5: 155mm towed gun Howitzer
100 The PzH 2000 155mm self propelled howitzer
200-2S6M Tunguska Anti-Aircraft Artillery
200 TOS-1 Buratino 220mm Multiple Rocket Launcher
100 Ka-52 HOKUM B / Alligator Attack Helicopter
200 MI-24P (MI-25 AND MI-35) HIND ATTACK/TRANSPORT HELICOPTER)

Air Force

Air Wings

400-SU-37
800 MIG-35 FULCRUMS
400 Typhoon EF-2000 Eurofighter

Bomber wings
100 B-1B Lancer
200 B-2
200 B-9A Sphinx

Ground Attack Wings
400 A-10s
100 AC-130U Spooky

Support Air Wings
100x SuKC-1 Stormfuelers
100 E-5A Bateleur AEWCAC

Transports
100 An-225 Cossack
100 An-124
200 C-5 Galaxy

Fleet Groups under the command of Flag Rank Admiral Ivan Fedoseevich Botsis
8th Flag fleet (In the South China Sea, Base in Kota Kinabalu)
1 Hunter-Class Command Battleship
1 Sultan Class Battleship
2 Salah al-Din class Battleship
4 Abu Sufyan class cruiser
6 Uthman-class Battlecruiser
8 Kirov Missile Cruisers
2 Blue Dragon Heavy Aircraft Carrier
4 Kreml class Aircraft Carrier Cruiser
18 Sovermenny Class Destroyers
18 Neustrashimy Class Frigates
10- Johnston Class Supply Ship (AOE)
10- Replenisher Class Oilers (AO)
4- Blue Cross Class Hospital Ship (T-AH)
10 Al Hijaz SSN-774 (Virginia-class rename)

9th Assault Battlegroup(In the Pacific Ocean, Base in Manado )
1 Salah al-Din class Battleship
1 Sultan Class Battleship
2 Abu Sufyan class cruiser
2 Uthman-class Battlecruiser
2 Tylos Class Aircraft Carriers
2 Kreml class Aircraft Carrier Cruiser
4 Kirov Missile Cruisers
10 Sovermenny Class Destroyers
18 Neustrashimy Class Frigates
4- Johnston Class Supply Ship (AOE)
2- Replenisher Class Oilers (AO)
10 Forthar-class SSN

“The Grand Fleet “16th Battlegroup Fleet (Base in Singapore)
1 Hunter-Class Command Battleship
2 Salah al-Din class Battleship
2 Blue Dragon Heavy Aircraft Carrier
4 Kreml class Aircraft Carrier Cruiser
4 Abu Sufyan class cruiser
6 Uthman-class Battlecruiser
8 Kirov Missile Cruisers
16 Sovermenny Class Destroyers
18 Neustrashimy Class Frigates
10- Replenisher Class Oilers (AO)
10- Johnston Class Supply Ship (AOE)
2 Typhoon-II SSBN
10 Al Hijaz SSN-774 (Virginia-class rename)

17th Battlegroup Fleet (Base in Colombo)
1 Europa-class nuclear-powered sea dominance command battleship (BBCN)
1 Bismarck II Class
4 Salah al-Din class Battleship
2-Union-class trimaran CVBN
4 Kreml class Aircraft Carrier Cruiser
4 Abu Sufyan class cruiser
4 Uthman-class Battlecruiser
8 Kirov Missile Cruisers
12 Sovermenny Class Destroyers
14 Neustrashimy Class Frigates
2 Typhoon-II SSBN
2 Delta-V SSGN
10 Forthar-class SSN
1- Blue Cross Class Hospital Ship (T-AH)

Naval Air Wings

200-SU-37
400 MIG-35 FULCRUMS
600 F-20B Enforcer

200 KA-32 Helix(Naval Helios)

snip
Erm..... (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=12090106&postcount=15)

Well.
Firstly :
aiee, numberz. Those will doubtless all become relevant soon, but not at present.
Nextly, Psychoes : No.
If you're going to move to assault range you post when you're in assault range, you don't post "Here I am moving out of my own territorial waters" and then in your next post "Here I am sitting unmolested in your territorial waters, aren't you silly for not shooting at me?".
It's piss-poor RP and until you edit I'm not acknowledging whatever it is you're doing.

Nextly, a small quibble with Allanea. Your missile ranges are listed in your OOC post you linked as having an effective range of 1100km.
Not the 7,000km you fired them.
I'm letting you off with sextupling your range this time, but do that again and my response will be along the lines of "and then all the missiles fell into the sea six thousand kilometres short of their targets, oh how the Reich laughed.".

Ottomans, Parthians, et al, I think you're all mildly confused about what's going on where. Allanea's fleet, so far as I am aware is still moving from Havenite and Prussian waters into engagement range with God's Own, who's fleet is in its' own territorial waters, seven thousand (thank you for that figure Boris) kilometers away and is not moving out of them.
So certainly, if you've joined up with Allanea's fleet you aren't in range of Reicsflotte West, if you are in range of Reichsflotte West you're either operating in widely-scattered groups or capable of shooting rather monumentally further than anyone else involved.

That covers pretty much everything.
Any other issues, irc them, I should be online periodically for about the six or so hours.

I cannot be on IRC for more then a few minutes today, so I apologize for thE Khan thing. I was quite sure for some stupid reason they had a 7,000 klick range. I will not do this again.

I have a few questions:

1. Is GO part of the Reich itself geographically, or is it a separate islandlike entity like New Zealand?

2. Are GO's weapons dumps, silos, airfields, and the like, identifiable as such from either orbit of flying aircraft?

3. Can you provide names of some cities/locations? Better yet, a map.


Everybody else: Again, no mass-nuking of GO!

1&3.
For all intents and purposes it is New Zealand, containing and controlling (nearly) all territories part of said nation, but the landmass is scaled up as to be appropriate for a population of billions.

However, due to some backstory stuff, not all of the NZ cities are under GO control, thus, Wellington remains uninvested by GO, forming a socialist republic city-state of its' own.

Every other NZ city is GO's, remaining in their IRL locations.
As a point of interest the Eagle's Talon is a RL structure known as the Sky Tower.

2.
As for the ammo dumps and airfields being indentifiable, yes, operating and equipped in an appropriate manner for war-time.
Silos however, are very much concealed and are unlikely to be uncovered before launching. Some few might, might be revealed by incompetent re-supply, but they rely on concealment for protectiom, so the personnel will be suitably paranoiac about keeping out of sight.

All right, all right, just don't get so uppity about it. Please keep in mind that the only time I really get to post is while I am doing homework, so I'm often distracted and I miss a lot of things sometime. Also, it's been quite a while since I last RPd any military operations, I'm more than a bit rusty.

Now, I am going to edit my posts, they are relatively poor form. However, I posted moving into Allanean territorial waters, not yours. Seeing as to the proximity of our nations, I don't really see that as a problem for one post in between.

Next question, then. Is your fleet within fighter range of Allanean waters, that'd probably be within 900 nautical miles (fighter+missile range)

I've got no problem with editing something that is poor form, I just ask for a little patience, and I ask that you refrain from calling it "piss-poor", especially when you get some of the information from the post wrong.

[EDIT: I also acknowledge that I probably shouldn't have assumed you were within fighter range of Allanea]

Why do you think Japan didn't have to island hop to hit Pearl?


Because they were conducting a raid, not a sustained offensive. Pearl also happened to be at the very end of their logistical ability, they couldn't go any farther, or for that matter, stay any longer than they did. If you want a sustained offensive, you need forward bases, badly.


An Arleigh Burke can travel 4,400 nautical miles without refuelling, the whole lot at 20 knots, and at 18 knots an Oliver Hazard Perry can manage 5,000 nautical miles. That's enough to cross the Atlantic twice

Yes, and if they go into a combat zone where they have to go to flank speed, that range drops off extremely fast. You'd also not want to be on half tanks or less when engaging, and I believe that ships topped off if they were under 75% when entering a combat zone in WWII.

As has now been stated repeatedly, and ignored, the distance from God's Own to Allanea is seven thousand kilometres, rather substantially more than the putative 900 mile fighter range.
I have no idea how this figure was arrived at by the by, ask Allanea.
If you've moved to join Allanea's fleet where it is now you're now 1300km from God's Own and hence quite within range of the Fleet, and within range of the nation, just.

Where was it stated that your nation was at 7000km.

And yes, I'll be moving to join Allanea's fleet, that was the idea.

Again, sorry for the poor form. I'll go ahead and delete those posts and replace them with new ones.

Eh, I will post later, but Thelas it is entirely possible and feasible that a nationstates nation can equip a thousand ships with nuclear propulsion. Hell, the idea of a nuclear navy rl has been studied before by the US and the USSR.

For my own part, all of my oceanic vessels are nuclear powered, due to distance, very little native oil, and lots of uranium. Only things that aren't patrol around in home waters, doing things like dropping off mines.

I just posted, but if someone might sum up what the hell's happening I'd be very appreciative...

I posted for Allanea, you can expect the enxtent of my involvement to stop at lasers and brilliant pebbles, seeing as I just expended alot of my godrods, and am in the process of occupying a nation.

Well, time prevents me from posting something of anything worth reading, so my next post will be relatively short.

I know, Allanea, I promised you a post. Sorry. :(

Question:

What have the Endless Crimes people launched, and how much of it, and what is targeted?

I assume those are SLBM's, but... I am not really able to know from the post, it's WAY too short and too vague.

I'll be getting involved in this, but as always, I'd appreciate maps and summaries. That would mean, who's on whose side. I understand that Allanea & Co are attacking God's Own, so God's Own: do you have a map of your nation, if so, please post.

If you've already gone over this kind of information, forgive me. Trawling through OOC is not my forte, and I second Skinny on the status request.

Status:

1. God's Own is a hugeass New Zealand, made bigger to accomodate NS.
From one side (I think it's East) lies a 200-mile wide channel separating it from the Reich proper.

2. Events so far:


a)Allanea staged an anti-Reich conference (page 1)

b)God's Own attacked Allanea with nuclear weapons. The attacks are continuing, so far 7 million Allaneans or something like that, are dead.

c) Warfare has commenced with mutual use of nuclear weapons. Allanea has not yet committed itself to OMG I NOOK J)) full launch of all weapons. I suggest you avoid it, too, to avoid the arguing and OOC screaming and moaning that normally results.

Yes to nuking the Reichsflotte, Yes to nuking a city or two, NO to OMG I NOOOK JOOO

3. PS. I have been told by SL members that my stuff in Haven will be protected by the SL allied ABM network.

Got it, that helps. Thanks. And don't worry, I hate when people use nukes, and I certainly won't unless forced to.

I swear, I've got a new post coming later tonight that will:

State my fleets passing by Allanea to link up with his fleets to engage God's Own's.

And the deployment of heavy, long-range bombers to Allanea for missions against God's Own's fleet

Again, I'm sorry for the lack of ettiquete and the length it is taking me to get new posts up.

I'll attempt to get to your side in a wide swing to join up with your fleet. Then as engagement operations start, I'll send my nuclear powered destroyers and cruisers to flank their fleets and I'll send my battleships and the like to the other side.

If you can join me in a surround maneuvers, we can leave no room to escape and crush their fleet in the crossfire.

I'll also leave the option of a nuclear bombardment open.

Howdy,

AS I already told Allanea I will be kind of pre-occupied until after Xmas with a RL project so I will only play the defence of The Reich. I promised Allanea not to use any of Reich plentiful spacedy assets for attacks so you could keep playing PMT against GO's fleet. These rules do however NOT apply for our defence net. The Reich is, if the not THE most, one of the most well protected areas in NS. We have been under siege from almost everyone since this game started and the last time we were bombed were by NYNjersey at about the same time as the Slaver wars. We learned from that and the constant threat.

At the moment we have an elaborate satellite network, developed by nations at top 200 in the world, supported by the huge StreiteKräfte which is the collab of all Reich nations and so have been since 2003. Every new member has to contribute to our joint defence and since most nations are around 6-8 billions and with defence ranking in top 1000 we have accumulated some over the years.

Me and my orbital strikes are looking forward to meeting you. I have however said that what happens out over open sea with fleets and such is an open debate. Same goes for "out of Reich" areas.

God's Own, what is your stance on the use of metamaterials in a PMT roleplay?

o rly?

Honestly, the fact you have a large population, or have been around since Janprilay 2003 means jack squat, as all of us are close enough that an extra billion or a few RL months difference, due to when we all joined, is meaningless. Gameplay has nothing to do with RP, once you get to be so old.

The "no FT" rules do apply for you, just as they apply to everyone else. PMT is allowed, as we pretty much all are PMT. But Allanea was crystal clear when he said "No FT."

o rly?

Honestly, the fact you have a large population, or have been around since Janprilay 2003 means jack squat, as all of us are close enough that an extra billion or a few RL months difference, due to when we all joined, is meaningless. Gameplay has nothing to do with RP, once you get to be so old.

The "no FT" rules do apply for you, just as they apply to everyone else. PMT is allowed, as we pretty much all are PMT. But Allanea was crystal clear when he said "No FT."

Ya RLY

Allanea states no rules for us. If you attack us we will use whatever means of defence we can. The No FT rule is only in the battle with Go's fleet, which I think I explained pretty clearly to Allanea. To say we cant use FT to defend ourselves is as ridicolous as telling YuT to stop beating you over the heads with Grasers and spacedy after attacking them.

You choose the playground boyo but we choose the toys.

Psychos : Considering I had to consult wikipedia to find out what they were, I'd be iffy about claiming them to be anything deployable in the post-modern era, they just don't seem like a practicable near-future technology.
So with regrets, no, I'd rather not see them.
On the other hand I'm pleased to see you taking my issues with your previous posts on board and working with them, I appreciate that.

Derscon : I believe you are missing Vegana's point. the Reich Strategic Defence Network isn't uber because of any ban on FT, it's excellent because it has been consistently expanded, reinforced and improved for years of real life time as well as being wholly supported by our national defence and manufacturing rankings which are, as a group, vastly superior to that of Greater Prussia's.

God's Own for example is as of our last rankings somewhere in the four hundreds for per capita defence spending, and 5th (iirc) in the Region and in (at least) the top hundred and fifty for every industrial ranking.

The Reich has always operated its' SDI in such a way as to make its' survival possible, something entirely conditional on its' existence, needing to be more than excellent, allowing players to OOCly pick and choose what attacks get through and I made this very clear to Allanea when we were discussing it, Jaar has complete control over what falls on the Reich proper.

What I choose to accept landing on God's Own is a different matter, and I will be taking damage commensurate with how I rp the nation.

This, however, is a gesture of good faith on my part to encourage realistic losses on the part of my foes, which is depressingly absent from the usual run of NS rp at MT/PMT.

Bear in mind that I am choosing to play my nation in such a way that it is not invincible.
I am choosing to play at a technology level no more advanced than the real life 1999.
I am choosing to limit myself in the pursuit of RP.
I am in effect, making the choice to make this easier for those I am opposing. The correct response to this is not ratcheting up the wank-level, nor is it making erregious claims about what an ABM system you don't control can and cannot do.
I will not tell my allies what they can and cannot do with their own nations and self-defence systems.

What have the Endless Crimes people launched, and how much of it, and what is targeted?

I assume those are SLBM's, but... I am not really able to know from the post, it's WAY too short and too vague.What would be expected in such a situation, really - SAMs versus approaching aircrafts (Conventional if the aircraft are spread apart, nuclear tipped - depending missile size - between 0.024 & 2.4 ktons - if coming in huge swarms), and ASMs versus ships (Conventionally - for now, anyway. EC has a fetish with purifying the enemy via hand-to-hand combat and likes the idea of shooting a ship limp to board it later on). Furthermore the occasional long-range cruising torp from either subs or - if the targets are close enough - underwater torpedo 'bunkers'. The long-range cruising torpedoes are nuclear tipped, but are reasonably easy to detect - you might notice the quickly dispersing trail of infrared their reactors cause from orbit.

Also, it's a good idea not to eat fish from anywhere near where this torpedoes have been.

The stuff's obviously fired exclusively at planes/ ships within engagement range - meaning any- and everyone who has already deployed close enough to the Reich to engage in strikes against it.

Oh, and as far as the ASMs are concerned - first wave are shots versus escorts by (Relatively - I'm thinking 4096kg missiles with 1024 kg warheads) light missiles - second wave goes for the big buggers (Double the above). They're relatively slow - going subsonic for most of the way - but accelerate to supersonic velocities once they're getting close to their targets. Armoured, too (Hence the low speed and, perhaps, not particularly impressive range) - I hope local CIWS is 40 mm or so. 20 mm ain't cutting it.

Oh. Generally cruising, rather than ballistic ones - although my launch-description doesn't quite fit this. I figure there's high-altitude 'Spotting' missiles included in there, though.

Incidentally, they're not coming in in a particularly swarm-like way - though depending on how the targetted fleet is spread, this might change during the final stages of approach. But otherwise, they're reasonably spread-out.

And... They're definitely and without a doubt not stealthy. At all. They are, however, loaded with enough EW/ ECM measures to make life for the defending side miserable, anyway.

Oh, and as far as EC naval forces are concerned - as they're expecting the possibility of being nuked, they're relatively spread-out, too - no 'Killing a fleet' with a single multi-megaton warhead here.

Missile/ aircraft swarms could of course succeed due to the relatively low density of SAMs & co this entails, but that's what the nuclear SAMs are for.

Subs on the other hand, might've a field day, particularly as EC's ASW is of questionable efficiency.

Let me make this clear as well.

You people are, as far as I am concerned, the attackers. You fired the first shot in this. I could have, in an absolute spectacle of stupidity (had I been so stupid) retorted, like some people, with the full range of my FT options - for example, called to my FT allies for defense. How well do you think would that have ended up?

Now, here's my suggestion:

You guys posess an enormous amount of strategic, tactical, and other advantage as it is - your SDI system is clearly superior, so are your ground forces and some other things.

Just as I have chosen not to park a Porcupine gunship in orbit over GO, or so forth, I would ask Vegana to please not use the FT starship array that I know the Reich has.

I also have FT defenses (such as shields) over Liberty-City and other parts of Allanea, as well as FT CIWS arrays which would have almost certainly meant that nothing GO launches or any other Reich nation launches would be able to even touch Allanean soil (the reaction time of an FT defense system would mean an ICBM is moving on a crawling pace), even if they did not somehow hit shields.

Yet I have chosen not to use these devices. I think it's reasonable of me to request that people abstain from using such devices in their own turn, since I am, in fact, being attacked (yes I know that right now my forces are taking the battle to GO, but you know what I mean).

Now, I am not in any way trying to write your losses, or anything, and if you want to lose only two sattelites, so be it.

However, I do think that rankings are really of little importance to this. Yes, you have a really cool system, you have an advantage over us, fine.

But try and not make this completely invulnerable, or FT.

Remember, I am being attacked.

I also asked not to have mass-nukings, would you want to now launch 10,000,000,000,000,000 missiles at me?

Thought so.

Now for OOC:

I have no intent to invade, occupy, or anything like this, the Reich mainland.

You people are, as far as I am concerned, the attackers. You fired the first shot in this."I don't know why the dog bit me... I was just poking it with this sharp stick..."

"I don't know why the dog bit me... I was just poking it with this sharp stick..."


You know, it's likely the conference would have had it's end after half the attendees were shown to be opponents to the war. But nevermind this, it's an open RP after all.

I blink in confused puzzlement at that assertation.
Jaar...hasn't specified numbers. Nor, I must point out, has he utilised anything more intrinsically advanced than the sort of things you have already used in much larger numbers to a far greater effect than his efforts will have.

Also, I feel this point must be addressed.
You are the aggressor.
I don't know how else one could define your conference, called specifically to "deal with" Iesus Christi, something that would certainly result in military action as there would be no way even the sort of governmental manipulation that you pulled in Syskeyia would prosper, much less any diplomatic approach.
You essentially called a meeting for strategic planning of an attack on an integral part of the Reich, it's only because God's Own has never heard of proportionate response that you have even the appearance of being the attacked party.
Any real-life nation, informed that it's enemies had called a meeting in order to plan the destruction of its' allies would move to disrupt said meeting.

In addendum to this, I must point out that there was an on-going state of war between God's Own and Allanea anyway, the pause in operations in Syskeyia in no way a formal ceasefire, meaning any attempt to portray this as a random and unprovoked attack falls hollow.
The moral high ground flees all parties involved in this conflict, the Allaneans especially because Allanea is supposedly a free society, where as no one expects better of fascists.

Two edited points:
I made an error in my aircraft naming, and what I thought was named the Locust, was actually the Swallow-type. The Locusts I'm about deploy are a different type, and the naval fighter which follows the F-14 ethos is the Swallow, repeat, not the Locust.

Secondly, whoever it was I fired those nuclear AAMs at, airburst means it explodes in front you anyway. CIWS isn't going to be any use against that at all I'm afraid.

Sure. I'm just talking of the point that you, technically, fired the first shot, in this RP.

(And the meeting was for trying to forge an anti-Reich alliance. Which half the attendees were opposed to. So it wasn't going to work).

And Allanea doesn't strive for a moral high ground ICly... for a complex set of IC reasons.

Anyway. I'm trying to say this: I agree with everything you say above, with this teeny winsy bit of difference, can we now proceed with the bombing and shooting and stomping?

I'm not going to argue, GO, I'll take what you said about metamaterials,

However, for future reference, they have been created and are useable. "Perfection" of the technology is expected in 20 to 30 years. Again, not arguing, just pointing out.

Also, I swear I'm working on fleet numbers, ship descriptions, and aircraft descriptions (EB-52). I'll post them ASAP. Sorry, there's just a lot of work my teachers are cramming in before the break.

Yayz, fleet numbers in! (with short armament descriptions,etc...)

Main Battle Fleets:

7th:

1 Honor SDN
2 Island SDN Carriers (tri-marine, 3 flight decks)
28 Zimmermann DN (6 30" railcannons in triple turrets=18 barrels)
5 Arkhangel Battlecarriers (Zimmermann frame w/ two flight decks)
15 Valor Battlecruisers (4 dual-turret 25" standard ballistic turrets)
44 Aegis CIWS cruisers (1 8" turret, 16 75mm CIWS turrets)
15 Lionfish Fast Attack Submarines (2 dual-turret 16" standard ballistic turrets, 8 torpedo tubes)
10 Pices Battlesubmarines (submergible Zimmermann frame w/ 16 verticle torpedo tubes)

8th:

1 Kraken Fleet Command Ship (triple flight deck, 32 30" triple-mount railcannons)
1 Samurai HDN
1 Honor SDN
3 Island
28 Zimmermann
10 Arkhangel
15 Valor
44 Aegis
20 Lionfish
15 Pices

12 Standard Fleets: ( ) denotes totals

12 Zimmermann (144)
5 Arkhangel (60)
7 Valor (84)
28 Aegis (336)
10 Lionfish (120)
5 Pices (60)

I will post losses and reinforcements continuously in red. When a whole fleet is sunk, I will downgrade the total number of fleets, or up them in case of reinforcements. Numbers do not include logistics and supply ships. All ships but Lionfish, Pices, and Aegis are capable of missile launches. Hope that makes it simple.

GO, Of course I took your issues on board. I used wrong information and assumptions. This didn't do well for the RP, and since it was wrong, they required changing. It's not like I'm gonna go all n00b and ignore your complaints! :p

I thought I'd be a helpful beaver and link to the NSwiki articles about some of the Britmattian designs employed by God's Own (some of which were purchased by Pantocratoria, hence me writing the articles in question):

http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Locust
http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Faulkner
http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Kahawai
http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Kararea

Questions for GO:

1. What is on Steward Island? Are there any significant resources, defenses, bases, cities? Which of them would I know about (notice from orbit/aircraft) and which are secret?

2. How big is the Island, accross? Just to get a sense of scale.

3. Are there any seamounts ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seamount ) near God's Own at all?

4. It's a quibble, but what happened to Leafanistan's attack on you

Thank you for everything.

1&2. Stewart Island. And I have no idea at all, it's not really been anything I've thought about.
What it will probably turn out to be is the same size as it is IRL, but also be the former site of God's Own's internment camps, now abandoned as those have all been shut down, their work complete.
It's defended of course, but given the appalling state of the weather around it, the roughness of the strait between it and the South Island's south coast and the general roughness of the terrain it's virtually useless militarily.

3. The map you linked would suggest so, proportionally further away as GO is larger, pushing them all well out beyond the EEZ.

4. That remains to be composed, as there's a clash between what we each deem as an acceptable response.

Okay. So I take it it is not scaled up to size like the rest of the nation?

Gah. I hate doing this kind of post. But apparently...

The Warmaster: Long story short - No. I've had a 'lil talk with Gods Own about this one on IRC, and well... What you're doing is, uh, impossible.

This is a country. At war. Armed up to degrees nobody here (Except me - 50th in the world for largest military per capita ftw) can even dream of. Well. sans Allanea, I suppose. Supported by Veganan and - numerous, but admittedly, questionable in terms of quality - EC infrastructure, particularly in terms of reconnaissance.

Without doubt with all sorts of radar installations (Prolly OTH, too), with aerial and naval patrols, and god alone knows what else.

In case that you're wondering why nobody responded to your previous posts, well, the answer's simple - your posts must've concerned some other place. Not Gods Own, not The Reich. Because 'Nobody' detecting an approaching invasion fleet when it's a couple hundred kilometres off the coast while a limted nuclear war is fought is impossible.

Because nothing appears to have targetted your fleet, despite me at least once (And quite probably repeatedly) stating that everything vaguely hostile within range of Gods Own is targetted. Not just the Allaneans.

Coincidentally, it's kinda stupid to send in the invasion army before the native navies have been eliminated. Kinda the behaviour of a war apprentice, really. Not a warmaster. And dodging any mass-sinking of troop transports, resupply ships and so on via any number of means, utilised by a numerically superior (Regionally, anyway) enemy by not acknowledging anything that could hurt it doesn't count, sorry.

*is* the Warmaster in range from EC? After all, he's North to God's Own, and I'm at it's Southwest. And GO is huge.

Well now. Back from my vacation in Lazarus, in all my masculine glory.

Now, re nookz, those phallic symbols we all know and love:

I'm not at all sure if the Reich defense grid is one that hovers magically over the Reich or one that moves in orbits like God intended (for gravtech is of the Nephilim). Matter of fact, I'm pretty sure there's a bit of both.

But a massive stratnuke attack with attendant EMP should have global consequences. Might me mitigated by hitting sats over oceans, but still.

Now, if I were arbiter rather than player, I'd say that Reich SDI would take a hell of a beating and expend a lot of ammo intercepting MIRVs pre-attack. It should be obvious that had had the Reich been the target there would have been penetrations.

It might be best to _not_ hit sats actually close to the Reich. Better than provoking a massive Reich launch.

And the holes will get plugged by orbital motion and new launches.

All this is of course contingent on the other side not having magical shields _either_.

Thought I'd post this in the OOC thread rather than clutter the IC thread with a response...

OOC: Panto, since you spoke about Graves being informed of proper etiquette, we will assume if his etiquette is wrong to some extent, it will be disregarded as he was supposedly told the correct procedure.

Everything you need to know is on the wiki:
http://ns.goobergunch.net/wiki/index.php/Pantocratorian_court_etiquette

...which I concede is hardly exhaustive but common sense should otherwise prevail.

You can also stop lines like:
Graves did his best not to mention the Emperor's name, even though he knew it was a matter of common knowledge, he was well aware that the mentioning of that name could send fits of rage through the spines of traditional Royalists such as these in Pantocratonia.

If you mean it would send people into fits of rage because of the Bonapartist reference, no, it wouldn't. It's just a name. And the Imperial Chancellor is a socialist, hardly a traditional royalist.

"Permission to approach?"

"Graves this is Emperor Actual you are cleared for approach repeat you are cleared for approach!" (couldn't resist)

A couple of serious points though:

1) Could you please spell my nation's name correctly. It's Pantocratoria not Pantocratonia.
2) It's eminence not emminence, besides which only cardinals are eminences, government ministers can be simply referred to as "Minister" or simply "monsieur", or "Chancellor" or "Doctor" in the case of Drapeur.

*is* the Warmaster in range from EC? After all, he's North to God's Own, and I'm at it's Southwest. And GO is huge.I think I did mention something about significant forces - not all of them, but still - flocking to GO, no?

'sides, one typically reacts to an enemy approaching, has anti-sub patrols everywhere as a general rule, the likes. Seeing as The warmaster posted 'Nobody in sight'... Yeah.

In any case. At present, EC's deployment scheme (In the seas) would look approximately like this:


One mediumforce close to the initial attack forces (Allanea & co), together with the GO naval forces in the region.
Groups of minor forces along the GO coast lines. And by 'Coastline', I mean 'Less far off than the continental shelf'. Which exceeds economic exclusion zones, just so you know.
Groups of minor forces along the Reich coasts.
Home defence forces at, well, home. EC. The Gospel. You know what. A rather major force.
Forces in transit - moving towards GO. Also pretty major.

For those of you caring, I reopened the Syskeyian Front:

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?p=12117856

This is my last night on until wednesday. Just letting everyone know.

Now, I know some of you want to nuke Allanea and some other people, too, in revenge for the nuclear attack on Munster and Vegana-City.

Which I am really, really fine with.

So let me guide you through the different parts of Allanea, and how to nuke them.

The least defended part, by any means, is Yazmarea. Right now it’s an Allanean state about the size and location of Western China, and with a population of approximately 350 million people.

Next up is Allanean England – population, 80 million, geography, similar to England, no nuclear defenses of it’s own, unless my neighbors there Praetonia and Derscon shoot some down.

Then is Allanean North America – visualize a population of about… 280 million people, after the last nukings and fleeing of refugees and stuff. Protection is minimal, and present mostly over historical monuments.

The Allanean Midlands state is completely unprotected. 20 million people in population.

The Hash and Mgweni states are a separate continent, and are protected mildly by their fleets, ships, and stuffs. They posess a population of about one billion people.

Next up is Haven Alllanea. The North Haven bit has about a billion people living in it, and is currently protected by Allanean, Prussian, and neighboring Sovereign League SDI system. So is Roanoke Island (70 million inhabitants) and so is Yurka-City (12 million inhabitants).

Finally is Mainland Allanea. Have good fun trying to reach that with ordinary ICBM’s – there’s now quadruple the amount of SDI there was at the start of the war. 1,200 million people lived here before the commencement of the nukeage. No, you CAN reach it, but attempts to OMFG NUKE IT ALL TO GLASS with just spamming up 10,000,000 warheads will fail, because I hate that sorta stuff. I utterly hate people who think that can win stuff by just adding an extra zero or two at the end. Yes, I’m tough, I can push the 0 button on the keyboard too.

Additionally, so far, approximately 80 million people have left Allanea. One expects more will start leaving soon. Praetonia, for one, should already be dealing with a refugee crisis.

As a final note: This has not yet started being a 55654654 I N000K J000R ENTIRE COUNTRY RP. Please do not make it one, because that’ll just be annoying and we’ll all be bitching about it and blaming each other for it and so forth.

Further discussion between myself nad the leadership of the Reich has yielded the suggestion that successful nuclear impacts on Vegana will lead to MAD.

Which will lead to bitching.

Which will kill the RP.

I think it'd be better if Vegana just shoots down all the nukes.

I can have my weapons turn around and self destruct in accordance with the ceasefire if Vegana really wants me to.

Of course it will be over a rapidly moving recovery fleet to collect every scrap we can.