NationStates Jolt Archive

Open transmission to all national governments, from the Kalessin Ministry of Peace:

“For aeons, they have interfered, meddled and oppressed; those who claim that, by some ‘higher wisdom’ denied to the rest of us, they have somehow unravelled the mysteries of right and wrong, good and evil. With the blind faith of the fanatic, they roam the seas and stars alike, constantly seeking, by force if necessary, to impose their vision of what is morally ‘right’ upon those who dare to be different. And time after time, they have succeeded. Nation after nation, people after people: the dissenters have been forced to abandon their own unique ethical viewpoints, give up their hard-won insights, often formed slowly and painfully through war and famine, or won through the relentless toil of their greatest philosophers and politicians, and act, not in their own interests, but in accordance with an foreign code of morality and an alien system of ‘justice’, imposed through fire and steel, fear and intimidation.

No more!

We cannot permit this to continue.

We will not permit this to continue!

A new alliance is forming, a new power rising, to usher in a new age. An age of freedom! An age of self-determination!

Self-determination. The freedom of a people to govern itself, by its own moral code, and its own ethical standards. The freedom of a government to act as they see fit, free from unwanted outside interference. This is our creed – the creed of Kalessin, and the creed of AEON – the Ascendant Enclave of Nations.

We vow to defend the right to full self-determination in all our member-nations, against any and all would-be oppressors, whether they come in wooden warships, bearing crosses or crescents, or in vast interstellar warships, emblazoned with the starred-spattered triangle of Yut. We vow to strip those who, for so many aeons have sought to impose their blind, fundamentalist dogma upon the whole of creation, of their foolish, misconceived arrogance, and we vow, in this age, in this aeon, to allow all who join together with us, in our great enclave of free nations, to ascend to the honour, glory and nobility, that can only come by following one’s own individual morality and ethical principles.

The inaugural meeting of the Ascendant Enclave of Nations, and the formal signing of our charter shall take place in the Palace of the Rising Dawn, in the Empire of Kalessin, three days hence. All are welcome, who share our dream of a world free from bigotry and intolerance.

Join us, and be set free!”

- Doctor Liberty, Minipax.



[OOC: Conference is starting here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=474217 ]

The Prime Minister of Haraki has a question. Well, a series of questions.



Since the entire basis of this alliance is the right to self-determination, I'm guessing basically your only service will be a mutual defence agreement between the nations in the event of them being persecuted for being different or in a moral area dissimilar to the attacking nation.

So my question is: What if a nation in your alliance commits genocide, deciding, say, that they don't like a certain colour of skin in their nation and decides to systematically massacre every person like that. Do you defend them when other nations decide to persecute them and, eventually, invade them if they decide not to stop? Do you defend them as they are just being different and not holding to the strict moral code imposed by sane societies, or do you leave them out in the cold, not only violating your own code of allowing nations to do whatever the hell they want, but also allowing millions of people to keep their lives?

In your quest for the right to be different, would you allow someone to build a bomb? Would you let them be different from everyone who does not want to destroy the lives of thousands of people? Would you go so far in your pursuit for everyone to be allowed their ethical viewpoint as to allow someone to build a massive bomb for use against your own civilians? Would you stop them just before they pushed the big red button? Would you even stop them then? Or would you allow their right to be different, their right to free action to go so far as to cost the lives of others?

Alien systems of 'justice' have been around for a long time, and most of them are similar enough in their ideal: Defending the rights and lives of the many, not just of the one. Am I to assume that since you are so opposed to imposing one's sense of justice on another, that you have no courts, no system of law and justice in your country?

I am curious as to your answers.



Prime Minister Jaime Wolfe

Official Announcement of the United States of Allanea

On one hand, we agree with Haraki that self-determination should sometimes be limited – after all, would we allow nations like Antanjyl to operate unfettered, literally killing their people by the hundreds and thousands and feeding on their corpses? Would we allow unbridled slavery, like seen in the foul Reich? Surely, we would not, and as such, the United States reserves the right to intervene in nations like that. We have fought for liberty on the streets of Deriksburg, on the snowy plains of Antanjyl, in the driving sleet of Zvarinograd and in the war-torn skies of Yurka, and if need be, we will come again to the defense of Lady Liberty – where ever she may call us to.

However we feel, as the honorable leaders of Kalessin, Ermor, and Auman do, that today, with the growth of such international organizations as the Kraven Conglomerate, the CAD, the Mangalan Accords and the so-called Concordat of Hermes – and in fact, the Triumvirate of Yut – the very principle of self-determination is now at stake. As such, we would like to join this new alliance.

We would also like to respond to the following atrocious statement of the nation of Haraki:

In your quest for the right to be different, would you allow someone to build a bomb?

Perhaps you should be best advised to think of it on a personal level. Does the right to be different not include the right of an individual to own or build a rifle, a grenade, or a cannon? That is a rhetorical question, of course, and we do not expect you to answer any different from us. Why, then, should Allanea – or any other nation – deny other nations or their governments the same rights we protect in our citizens?

Sincerely yours,
J. K. Arvin,
United States Secretary of State

It's an interesting situation when freedom is used as a synonym for anarchy. To call this chaos would be an insult to chaos. The nation of Kalessin, and those who even now are no doubt flocking to his twisted banner of 'freedom' stand directly against those things that make people, and nations, truly free.

Property. Law. Government.

Survival of the strongest is not freedom, nor is it liberty. It is death. It is fear. Fear is not freedom, fear is the absence of freedom. And those alliances you stand against have stood against tyranny and fear for generations.

To answer the question of the 'nation' of Allanea, No. Unequivocally, totally, definitely, no. Force is and should be the right and prerogative solely of the government and its authorised bodies.

Therefore, while we applaud --to an extent-- the dedication to national self-determination displayed by this new alliance, we are concerned as to the true motivations of the nation of Kalessin, and stand firmly against AEON's formation. We also, freely, offer our advice to Kalessin that they renounce this mad attack upon the stability that upholds the galaxy.

With Faith and Duty.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/Roania/ac44ec53.jpg
Foreign Minister Leopold dePlume

The Prime Minister of Haraki has a question. Well, a series of questions.

-snip-

Prime Minister Jaime Wolfe

From the Chambers of the Voice of Sauron in Barad-dûr

You are a ridiculous man, Mr. Wolfe. You have questions but no answers, and you deny the realities of the universe around us. The retainment of force as a sovereign right and the right of nations to self-determination are both fundamental, though yourself and the arrogant powers that be would see them denied us.

You hold to outmoded utilitarian principles when you say that it is the duty of governments to defend the rights and lives of the many rather than the one. What if the many, as you mentioned before that, desires the annihilation of the few, or to approve the installation of an autocrat? Are such things unheard of in the history of ancient Terra? What then, would your answer be, but to ignore the many—to continue to govern in a way that your elite deems appropriate for a "sane" society in opposition to its people, as little more than a teleocratic ruling clique that points only to its own seemingly God-given intellectual and moral superiority for justification?

You are not so very different than our honourable Kalessini neighbours.

We, for our part, support them in this endeavour—it has been too long since we have allowed ourselves to enjoy the fine hospitality of the Empire.

~The Voice

"The point of the above message was not to show that the needs of any one person or group are greater than the needs of any other person or group.

Yes, I bring questions with no answers. The point is these questions are ones that it is very hard to answer, and I am asking the government of Kalessin, such as it wants to found AEON, to answer these questions. In my mind, they are questions worth answering.

But on to your main point: The rights of the whole versus the rights of the individual. The entire point of most systems of justice around are to keep everyone equal on at least one footing: Health and the right to life. In the justice systems that abound, most of what they deal with is the rights to good health and life. If someone attacks you and knocks out your teeth, they go to jail. If someone kills you, they go to jail. And so the main point of our justice systems is to prevent loss of life in any way possible. This is where the rights of the whole versus the individual come into play. If the individual desires to kill a dozen people, it is the duty of government to stop them. If the whole desires to kill a million people, it is the duty of government to stop them. It is not taking away the rights of the murderers, it is giving rights to the victims. It is the job of government to protect the rights and lives of the many and of the one.

If that is not a sane method of law and justice, then I do not know what is."

-Prime Minister Jaime Wolfe

TO: Ministry of Peace, Kalessin, Arda
FROM: The Colony of the Ashen Empire, Arda

And the Empire shall heed your call. An envoy shall be sent for this meeting
as per request.

Let a new age be brought forth from the burnt ashes of the ancient and
withering remains of the one we currently tread upon.

--

Caractor, Arch Censor of the Empire

Dst:Ministry of Peace, Kalessin
Src: Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Weyr
SubjLin: Re: the Ascendant Enclave of Nations

While the First Distributed Kingdom of Weyr is not interested in participating in the Ascendant Enclave of Nations [AEON] at the moment, it is interested in observing establishing stable relations with AEON. The First Distributed Kingdom of Weyr is interested in dispatching a small diplomatic legation to attend the AEON inagural ceremony, if such is acceptable.

Sincerely,
Office of the Advocate for Ardan Affairs

High Council Shoots Down Alignment Proposal. All Parties United, For a Moment.
WN3: Wye City

A proposal to send the Ascendant Enclave of Nations [AEON] charter for consideration was voted down 1892 to 62 in the Distributed representation and unanimously in the Octagonal Council.

While a peaceful debate ran for fifteen minutes around the table in the Octagonal Council, with all members agreeing by preliminary ballot the AEON would be a negative infuence on the First Distributed Kingdom, fierce debate raged for an hour on the Distributed Representation floor, culminating in brief gunfire before drawing to a vote.

Representative Avram Chernyakov shot representative Jamil li'Wye across the Distributed Representation chamber, seriously wounding representative Sari Yamamoto by stray fire. Both representatives are in stable condition. Representative Yamamoto is expected to resume her duties by the end of the week. Representative li'Wye is expected to appear before the Wye Metropolitian Distribution's legislature in two days for defense against a possible vote of no confidence due to his support for Weyrean membership in the AEON.

Public Security officers conducted Representative Chernyakov from the Distributed Representation chamber. The representative, encased in temporary shield bubble by the chamber's warding seconds after opening fire, persistently argues for severing all ties with Ardan states and promoted a policy of strict alignment with ToY members.

The AEON, a self-proclaimed proponent of national sovereignty and moral relativism and an opponent of the Triumvirate of Yut [ToY], is expected to be a predominantly military alliance, with little possibility of ideological or political alignment. Any such alignment would stand against the alliance's ideologies. Nonetheless, the AEON has attracted predominantly despotic states. Allanean backing appears to stem predominantly from the AEON's pseudo-anarchist ideology, and from the humiliation Allanea suffered at the hands of ToY forces during the One Day War [ODW]. The Triumvirate forces assisted Liangite residents on the Martian North Pole in repelling an Allanean attempt at forcible colonization. Some entities now claim Zero-One, which enacted a campaign of cumulative retribution against Allanea proper, used excessive force and caused unnecessary suffering.

The High King Kira li'Starhavven, clearly uncomfortable in her role as the facilitator in the Octagonal Council, gave her opinion on the issue by closing the agenda time slot for discussion with a quote from the Weyrik Standard Law. "'We recognize that all people should have the right to live free from fear, oppression, and want. We pledge to strive for the preservation of peace, and the banishment of oppression, slavery, and intolerance with all our resources.'" The High King, a major participant in the drafting of the Weyrik Standard Law, has issued no formal statements regarding the AEON, the events in the High Council chambers, or her words in the Octagonal Council.

Weyr Net News Network: Corrupting your mind for four centuries and running.

It's an interesting situation when freedom is used as a synonym for anarchy. To call this chaos would be an insult to chaos. The nation of Kalessin, and those who even now are no doubt flocking to his twisted banner of 'freedom' stand directly against those things that make people, and nations, truly free.

Property. Law. Government.

Survival of the strongest is not freedom, nor is it liberty. It is death. It is fear. Fear is not freedom, fear is the absence of freedom. And those alliances you stand against have stood against tyranny and fear for generations.

To answer the question of the 'nation' of Allanea, No. Unequivocally, totally, definitely, no. Force is and should be the right and prerogative solely of the government and its authorised bodies.

Therefore, while we applaud --to an extent-- the dedication to national self-determination displayed by this new alliance, we are concerned as to the true motivations of the nation of Kalessin, and stand firmly against AEON's formation. We also, freely, offer our advice to Kalessin that they renounce this mad attack upon the stability that upholds the galaxy.

With Faith and Duty.

A typical statement from a cowardly noble hiding from reality. Your words, Roanian, are worthless. No one with a soul, a heart, would listen to one such as you, who seems to seek nothing more than the eternal slavery of mankind. I, the Azim Amir-Al-Kawakazim of the Corsair State of Wabu-Dhati, do hereby declare and swear our allegiance to the ideals of this nation, and will appear in person in Kalessin to follow through on this statement.

Inshallah, when the rest of the galaxy is free, so too shall your people rise up and free themselves. For the only true ruler is Allah, the only power comes from Allah, and Allah has wished freedom amongst all the peoples of the galaxy.

Fight against the future all you want. In the end it is nothing but the prattlings of a madman.

Open-band message from the Kalessin Ministry of Truth to Haraki:

"When does execution become murder? When does war become genocide? When does a hard but just necessity, whether moral or practical, become a crime? We of Kalessin believe that these are difficult questions indeed. Only after much thought and deliberation have we come to some approximate conclusions for ourselves - and even these are uncertain and vague, and mostly relevant only to the specific situations which they concern. How can we possibly presume to make judgements on behalf of another nation, who surely have a better understanding of their own unique circumstance and situation than we, or anyone else can hope for? Your own short-sightedness is demonstrated clearly by your reference to 'sane societies,' amongst which, we presume, you include yourselves.

We would suggest that the next time you see another nation acting in a way that you deem 'insane,' you stop, hold back your diplomatic protests, your economic sanctions, your soldiers and your warships, and think. Instead of condemning another nation, the people of which are likely just as wise and just as intelligent as your own, you might try to consider why they have made these choices, these moral judgements, which you deem 'insane,' and, through such impartial and calm reflection, increase your own understanding of the nature of good and evil.

Pride is a dangerous thing, and ever does it walk hand-in-hand with ignorance. Do not so arrogantly dismiss the insights of others as insanity. Instead, embrace humility, and the knowledge which it makes available.

Yes, we would defend one of our allies against those fanatics who would so carelessly judge them, and deem them 'insane,' and we would not be responsible for the lives lost in such a war. We would be but fulfilling our obligations to the principles of freedom and self-determination. The only people responsible would be the blind aggressors who, in their overweening pride, seek to judge rather than to learn."

- Docter Fidelity, Minitru

Open band transmission to Haraki from the Kalessin Ministry of Peace:

"Why would we not allow another nation to build a bomb? Surely all nations have a right to defend themselves? Are not weapons, including bombs, necessary for such self-defense? Furthermore, once we start punishing nations for the mere possession of potentially lethal weaponry, where do we stop? A sharp carving knife is capable of killing a man. Should we start to condemn nations for allowing their citizens to possess such? Also, are you claiming that it is 'just' to condemn a nation for the mere supposed 'intent' to commit what you deem a crime? Surely, it is actions that should be punished, rather than 'intentions' which may or may not be real, or in earnest.

Naturally, if another nation attempted to use a bomb on our citizens (note the difference between the verbs 'to attempt' and 'to intend' - the former warrants action, the latter does not - at most it might suggest that one would be wise to prepare for action), we would defend ourselves - and we would succeed. We have no need to fear something as trivial as a 'bomb'. We too have the right to assert our own right to self-determination, and freedom from outside interference."

- Doctor Doleful, Minipax

Open band transmission to Haraki from the Kalessin Ministry of Peace:

"Why would we not allow another nation to build a bomb? Surely all nations have a right to defend themselves? Are not weapons, including bombs, necessary for such self-defense? Furthermore, once we start punishing nations for the mere possession of potentially lethal weaponry, where do we stop? A sharp carving knife is capable of killing a man. Should we start to condemn nations for allowing their citizens to possess such? Also, are you claiming that it is 'just' to condemn a nation for the mere supposed 'intent' to commit what you deem a crime? Surely, it is actions that should be punished, rather than 'intentions' which may or may not be real, or in earnest.

Naturally, if another nation attempted to use a bomb on our citizens (note the difference between the verbs 'to attempt' and 'to intend' - the former warrants action, the latter does not - at most it might suggest that one would be wise to prepare for action), we would defend ourselves - and we would succeed. We have no need to fear something as trivial as a 'bomb'. We too have the right to assert our own right to self-determination, and freedom from outside interference."

- Doctor Doleful, Minipax


The Emperor agrees with Kalessin. Whatever a nation does within it's own borders is none of anybody elses business no matter how vile or disgusting it may seem to others.... as long as it does not spill over a nation's borders. Xeraph has been asked on many occasions to intervene when a sovreign nation has been tagged as oppressive, genocidal, etc. The two times Xeraph has intervened occured because the citizens of that nation asked for help. Diplomacy was the first step. Military intervention was a last resort.

"While I do appreciate your devotion to assessing situations before intervening and thus furthering your own thoughts and purposes, I do not feel that the killing of civilians - which is what I refer to as 'genocide' when conducted on a mass scale - is ever justified. While, in a wartime situation, the death of military personnel is an unpleasant eventuality, the death of civilians is unjustified and unneeded. But who are you to say that when I make a decision, I have not thought it through? When first I saw your proposal for this alliance, I thought it through and came to the conclusion that I disagree on many levels with the proposal you initially outlined.

If I am to make a decision that will condemn any action, or interfere with any life other than my own, I must think that decision through thoroughly prior to taking any action on it. The few times I have ever signed an order to send my nation's troops into an area where they could be injured or killed, I have had to think it through quite thoroughly from every angle.

But you in your defence of the nation committing genocide against one of your nations, are violating your own principles of self-determination. The nation committing the genocide has self-determined they would like to kill the people in question. However, individually, the people being killed have self-determined that they do not want to die - in most cases. At the same time, nations around the world have used their own moral codes to self-determine that these actions are condemnable, and anyone sending troops has self-determined that they are willing to sacrifice their own citizens to save the nameless, faceless numbers that they see in front of them.

So whose self-determination do you trust? Do you trust the one person, the diplomat, who you have interacted with before, who tells you they have just cause for the slaughter of countless innocents? Or do you trust the self-determination of the individuals on the ground who should have the right to self-determine whether or not they live or die? Should you not determine, yourself, whether the cause your ally is fighting for is right, rather than rushing blindly to their aid because they are in your AEON?

You speak of blind aggressors who, in their pride, seek to judge rather than learn. But what if the aggressor nation is not blind? What if they have thought it through as much as you owe to your people to have thought through every decision you make? And if you leap instantly to your ally's aid, does that not make you the blind defender, instantly mimicking the actions of your friends simply because they have their name on a piece of paper the other nation does not? What if your ally is the blind aggressor, committing the example I have used so many times of internal genocide? What do the slaughterers learn from the animals they kill for food? What, in similar fashion, do the murderers learn from killing those around them? If your ally nation is committing genocide to kill everyone with a certain skintone, how is that learning anything or teaching anyone anything? That seems like blind judgment to me.

Also, you will not that I did not refer to a nation building a bomb, but rather to a civilian. Since the state, in a perfect governmental society, and as discussed earlier, should have the right to a monopoly on violence within their nation, would you let your rights to freedom and self-determination go so far as to allow one of your citizens to build a bomb with the intention of using it to kill other civilians of your nation? You speak of punishing for action rather than intent. The action of detonating a bomb is pushing a button, flipping a switch. Would you stop them before they push the button, thus stopping the intent, or would you pick up the pieces of the dead people to use as evidence in prosecuting them after they commit the action, when hundreds or thousands of lives may have been wasted?"

-Prime Minister Jaime Wolfe

Official Response of the Government of Allanea to Prime Minister Jaime Wolfe

Dear Sir!

In your letter, you have made the assumption that the state 'should have a right to a monopoly on violence in their nation'. This is not agreed to by all governments, and certainly not by that of Allanea. In our nation, a central government monopoly of violence is guarded against by the Federal constitution and several local ones.

The existence of legal citizens' arrest for all felony crimes, citizens' militias (akin to Benjamin Franklin's Defensive Association) and sheriff's posses is a key part of Allanea's Republic. The rifle on the wall of an Allanean citizen's house is the eye tooth of Allanea's liberty, and it is the duty of every person entrusted with a public office in Allanea to ensure it is there. The same applies to the grenade in that citizen's pocket, the cruise missile aboard the corporate patrol vessel, and almost any and all other terrible implements of war you may conceive.

Allanea is not the only such nation – The Libertarian Paradise of Sunset, The Eternal Necrontyr Empire of the Ctan, and many other nations all subscribe to the same principle. Who, then, gives you the right to condemn such nations?

Is Allanea evil or oppressive? Or is she a nation that guards freedom of speech, religion, education, bearing arms, and the rights to fair trial, property, liberty, presumption of innocence, and many others? Why, then, is you indignant defense of this so-called 'sacred monopoly' on violence and destruction – similar to that of the reigns of the feudal lords of ancient times, who wrenched the katanas from their peasants' hands, or from that of the Philistines, who barred the Jews from the very art of ironworking lest they make a weapon?

Remember the fate of these Philistines, lest you suffer a similar one.

Sincerely yours,
K. L. Sabermann,
U.S. D.O.S.

The Independent Steward Kingdom of Asherton and Stanley, soon to be the Imperium of New Haven once more, agrees with the philosophy of this organization and will send a delegation immediately to sign the charter.

Long live the Imperium! Long live AEON!

- Imperatrix Sara I, ISK

While Iesus Christi understands the need for independence in these troubled times, we also see the greater need for defence and brotherhood....what good is the world without hope?
To this end, and in the constant desire for peace and saftey for all the peoples of the world, Iesus supports this alliance and seeks to be in union with those involved. With toegtherness Iesus maybe brought into a greater understanding of other cultures and concepts.....


General John-Paul Walsh
Ministry of Social Order

Prefect Abarrakh sat in his seat. His long white and red tunic, collars almost touching the ears, clashed with his black trousers, tucked in to knee long boots. His long hair was tied back loosely in a pony tail. He had listened, and listened, and listened some more. Then he started to dictate in to a small pocket data slate.

"People, please do not argue over such simple semantics as what one butcher-king does to his people, or another butcher-profit does to his" he cleared his throat. "The fact is, that to say we have a right to operate as we wish in our own borders, yet those that disagree with our ideals may not, is hypocrisy" he stated.

"In Tannelorn, we believe that Heaven chooses who is fit to lead, and heaven will remove one who is not worthy to rule." he grinned. "Be that through disaster, war or uprising."

"Perhaps these people are slavers, or butchers, however that is not the point, the point is that there are those who wish us to be exactly as them, to throw away thousands upon thousands of years of culture, simply so they can feel superior to us all."

"I do not believe that any judgements should be made..even against democratic regimes, unstable and dangerous nations, constantly in a state of controlled civil war, yet it is the will of the people and of heaven they are so, and that is how they shall remain." he sat back at his table.

"It has never been the wish of Tannelorn to modify the behaviours of the people of a nation, unless absolutely necessary, as we did with Tor Yvresse during the surrender negotiations, we only asked of them to never attack us or our friends again." he paused. "That is the only acceptable intervention.

"And a special note to Jamie Wolf" he grinned as he spoke. "To allow the other nation to attack with the bomb, gives us justification, it serves justice, until the criminal act is commited, it is merely a thought, would you have us arrest people for thought crimes now?" he laughed softly. "We have many bombs, and many ships and birds of war, yet we do not use them but in defense of ourselves, we do not preempt pain and suffering, by inflicting the same upon those who are not yet guilty." he finished speaking, and hit the send key on his data slate, opening a bottle of vodka as he finished.

[OOC: Conference is starting here: http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=474217 ]

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