NationStates Jolt Archive

How much of the surface of the three moons (Ganymede, Triton, Europa) has been claimed?

Bump.

All of it really.

OOC:
Look offsystem, or take a random rock from the asteroid belt or even better if you're good at diplomacy-- negotiate a portion.

There are two other options, but these are some I don't recommend:

1) You seriously challenge the owners for ownership by force-- which is horribly counterproductive and stupid. Not to mention taxing in resources- would you really dare waste more than it's worth to get a piece of land/rock?

2) You claim it on multiverse-- i.e. your roleplaying universe is seperate from theirs. This is slightly more acceptable, but it won't gain you any roleplaying partners/friends.

Look offsystem, or take a random rock from the asteroid belt or even better if you're good at diplomacy-- negotiate a portion.


Please take note that, depending on your domestic policy, any and all of the above suggestions might fail.

If he's asking for either of three moons then I assume he can bloody well get an asteroid from the belt. In addition, this is NationStates, diplomacy is a constant even if you're a psychotic dictator with a fetish for nuclear weapons. (Sorry Carlos/Iraqstan.)

OOC:

The moon of Europa is entirely off limits I'm afraid, as well as the orbital space. The moon is divided between myself and Sketch, with the Northern hemisphere controlled by the latter and the southern by myself. The treaty of Securitas furthmore denies any colonising rights or territory outside of those two primary nations and a small number of outposts already present.

As for Ganymede and Triton, you'll have to keep watching this thread to see if anyone on there comes forward.

I'm not asking for an entire moon, I just want some stakes that are currently unheld on one or two of them (since Europa's out of the question).

I guess I'll wait for the Ganymede / Triton people to show up.

In an effort to assist ...

Here (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=417419&highlight=Ganymede+Triton) are a couple of links (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=348650&highlight=Ganymede+Triton) to guide you in your quest for knowledge.

Clicking on the 'Search This Forum' option, and going to 'Advanced Options' and typing in the keywords such as 'Ganymede' and 'Triton' can get you several quick answers, for future reference. Granted, the search it seems, does not always give you everything you want to see, for much older things. Bear in mind, the older the thread, the more likely things have changed since. Happy hunting all the same.

I'd already seen the first post, but thanks for the second.

Curious ... if you'd already seen it, why bother with the thread? You have some answers.

Ganymede has free space, but me and Konania kind of want to screen potential neighbors to see if they're compatible. If not, it's pretty much a no-no. If yes, no problem.

Triton is... No idea. As linked above, I've a base there, but that's all.

That thread merely stated which nations had bases on the moons, not if there was any space left. I knew what nations had the bases, but I needed to know if there was space.

If he's asking for either of three moons then I assume he can bloody well get an asteroid from the belt. In addition, this is NationStates, diplomacy is a constant even if you're a psychotic dictator with a fetish for nuclear weapons. (Sorry Carlos/Iraqstan.)

Skeelzania is refering to the fact that he recently tried a similar action only to have it thwrated because he oppresses his Elvish minority and declared a Vendetta on Mars. Basically, the Martians and their allies banded together and fired on the fleet transporting the asteroid.

Gundge.

Bump for Ganymede nations

Skeelzania is refering to the fact that he recently tried a similar action only to have it thwrated because he oppresses his Elvish minority and declared a Vendetta on Mars. Basically, the Martians and their allies banded together and fired on the fleet transporting the asteroid.
"Hey $planet! You all are dead in my eyes and I will kill you if I get a chance! Oh, and... um... don't mind me as I move this here asteroid over by you, kay?"

"Hey $planet! You all are dead in my eyes and I will kill you if I get a chance! Oh, and... um... don't mind me as I move this here asteroid over by you, kay?"

Although the asteroid wasn't exactly near anyone, that basically sums it up.

"Hey $planet! You all are dead in my eyes and I will kill you if I get a chance! Oh, and... um... don't mind me as I move this here asteroid over by you, kay?"

That pretty much sums it up. Personally, if I were looking to cleanse Mars' population, I'd use a highly contagious bioweapon with a long dormancy period. Something subtle that couldn't be traced back to me very easily.

New Shiron, a peaceful nation of the Federated Klatchian States, wishes to enter into negotiations with the owners of Europa. Principally, New Shiron is wanting hydrogen (water in this case) in order to refuel its spacecraft which use MHD Hydrogen powerplants and grav thruster plate drive systems.

occ
I use technology rules for the Traveller RPG system and am Tech level 10 under those rules (actually the cusp of tech level 10 and late tech level 9)


I'm afraid not - Europa is off limits entirely to traffic not belonging to the Serene^Union, or the Empire of Sketch. Furthmore since both require agreement outside the emergency provisions of the Securitas treaty, and I am witholding permission there's not room for negotiation. I recommend you try other sources of Hydrogen within the Sol System, as nations within my own alliance have been turned down.

[/OOC]

New Shiron isn't asking to build a base, or even to use its own spacecraft... but is wanting to purchase water ice from Europa. Simply put, New Shiron ships would remain at a specific distance from Europa, and would be willing to purchase water ice from your bases that would be transported by your spacecraft. As Europa is the single largest source of water ice outside of Earth in the Solar System, it isn't an unreasonable request.

(occ this would be in really diplomatic and flowery language but I am multitasking at the moment so the RP isn't what it should be)

I've absolutey no interest in selling something as inherently abundant to me as water - especially not to the effort of utilising my own vessels to transport it to you. I've turned down my own allies in requests of Europe and I'm not about to be a hypocrite. There's plenty of it to be had around Sol, so sorry, answer remains a polite but form "no".

OOC: Uh ... if you're after hydrogen for fuel, why do you want water ice, which you'd have to waste energy splitting the oxygen out of? Look in the other direction and you'll find an entire gas giant full of hydrogen without such territorial problems*.

*Well, getting too close to Menelmacari/Ma-tekese/Whoever's cloudbases is probably a bad idea, but Jupiter is big enough to avoid that easily.

OOC:
Skeelzania is refering to the fact that he recently tried a similar action only to have it thwrated because he oppresses his Elvish minority and declared a Vendetta on Mars. Basically, the Martians and their allies banded together and fired on the fleet transporting the asteroid.

Mind you, Zvarinograd is on Mars-- I already know. I abstained from any action against such. I have other things to do than bother someone moving a bloody rock in space. I'm merely pointing out that he shouldn't give the guy a negative outlook on peaceful options.

That pretty much sums it up. Personally, if I were looking to cleanse Mars' population, I'd use a highly contagious bioweapon with a long dormancy period. Something subtle that couldn't be traced back to me very easily.Given that Mars isn't exactly perfectly terraformed, you might have problems with infection, as the filters in $Environment_Protection_Suit would kinda... Filter it out.

Furthermore, I would note the inefficiency of bioweapons. The highest mortality (Percentage of victims killed by $Disease within a given population. Yes, the entire population, not just those who show symptoms) ever was during the time of the black death, 35% (At specific places. Lower for the overall population of, say, the affected territories in europe). In a modern, industrialised, health-conscious nation, a mortality of 0.1% would be an exceptionally good result for a bioweapon.

And this isn't even touching the thing about Mars featuring a good amount of nations with truly excessive (And RPed) biowank capacities (Me, Pilon, Zero-One, to name three examples).

Or the sheer amount of genetically different species, posthuman societies and so on you would have to cope with (Menelmacari Elves, Angstian or Territorial Posthumans, Zero-One AI's and so on).

Not to mention that some players (I.e. me) would be mildly unwilling to recognise a 'UNTRACEABLE BIOWEAPON! YOU'RE DEAT!' kind of thing.

Given that Mars isn't exactly perfectly terraformed, you might have problems with infection, as the filters in $Environment_Protection_Suit would kinda... Filter it out.

Right, that's why you get virus carriers into the cities.

And this isn't even touching the thing about Mars featuring a good amount of nations with truly excessive (And RPed) biowank capacities (Me, Pilon, Zero-One, to name three examples).

I never said that it would be a 100% effective weapon. :p Just that it's the method I would use to start cleansing the Martian populace if I were so inclined. (I also never said that it would work as advertised. :))

Or the sheer amount of genetically different species, posthuman societies and so on you would have to cope with (Menelmacari Elves, Angstian or Territorial Posthumans, Zero-One AI's and so on).

So you just need something to affect all those different species Or perhaps a different virus for each species. Although the AIs are definitely going to need their own digital virus. I'm thinking something that breaks down DNA. Perhaps a virus that mimics RNA and tricks DNA into unzipping for replication, only to *not* have it replicate.

Not to mention that some players (I.e. me) would be mildly unwilling to recognise a 'UNTRACEABLE BIOWEAPON! YOU'RE DEAT!' kind of thing.

Untraceable? No. Nothing is 'untracable' but it would be mildly tough to trace if you had no real idea where it came from, wouldn't it? Unless you caught a carrier and interrogated him or her (and I hypothetically hadn't used someone else to infect that person) then you wouldn't really know where the Virus had come from, would you?

Rezo, you've got to remember that this is the same guy who thought the Trium was a bunch of Sol-controlling, slave-owning, overlord space-elves all living on the WorldDisc (Angelus' portable pad), and that ESUS could walz in and take over control and ownership of Sol and its trade just because they were looking for some 'street cred' or whatever that was all about. And pondered the possibility using bio-wank and other such stuff to gain those ends there too, come to think of it.

Ah yes. Bringing us such gems as:
Annexing Sol could be a great idea.

Neglect FT ground wars. Peh. Fools. All my planets have super duper planetary shields. You have to land troops to have almost any chance of hurting me.

The ESUS, we kind of keep to ourselves unless provoked. Oh yeah, members will do things like blowing up xeno planets and enslaving entire systems, but not the whole alliance.

On asked what the Trium is:
Think Ultra Imperialist space elves who have tried to claim Sol as their own.

On asked what the Trium does:
You are wrong about that. They *are* taking humans as slaves. Not necessarily pleasure slaves, but slaves none the less. As for delusions of superiority, the elves wrote the book on that. If they had a chance, they would kill off each and every human they could.

On Zero-One:
I don't know about DLE. I'm just saying that the majority of her civilian populace seems pacifist, based on her NS wiki entry. And since they're pacifist, they probably aren't too well aquainted with total war. Total war like what I fight, with entire systems being decimated.

Again, on the predominantly human alliance of the Trium:
Oh, and for the record, I was the one who originally instigated the whole OOC discussion about a possible attack on the Triumverate. Mainly because ICly, my nation is rigidly Xenocidal, and the ToY is the most powerful group of non humans in NS at the moment.

The difference lies in our definition of capship. Mine is anything 100 meters and up (up to 40+ kilometers, where it becomes a wankship regardless of any other circumstances.)
Also one of the same poor folk who let Allanea sucker them into messing with Mars to begin with for his lil attempt at 'revenge' or some such ... something The Mindset was bemoaning on IRC last night. Pity, that. For a moment when all that got started, I half thought they were actually going to try and go through with that whole 'draw out the Trium by attacking Mars' bit they'd talked about in that whole ooc mess. Seeing who they actually managed to draw the attention of and who went on their merry way not giving it a second glance, I find it all even more amusing.

Then again, I'm still chuckling over supporting someone who walked in to start stuff with Mars, then is irritated when Mars fights back. As well as being mildly amused over Mars being ridiculous about going after his holdings in return to prove some point or other when it's clear their opponent has no idea what 'vendetta' really means to begin with, and would likely be harmless if left alone out there to grumble and fester and shake his fist.

Ah well. To each their own, neh?

Having realised that the Solar system belongs to everyone else, we left the solar system and to set up colonies in other systems. We now have bases in the Tydus, Gaton and Talos sectors, and have occupied the Planet Arcadia after a war with the Valuan Empire, who attacked us when we investigated the planet.

My advice is to leave this tiny solar system behind and find new worlds... the possibilities are endless.

although puzzled a bit by the reply, New Shiron will simply approach Sketch instead.

ooc
let me get this straight.... you are unwilling to sell something you have a surplus of and miss the chance to also charge a transportation fee as well?I'd say Sketch would be bound by the Securitas treaty just as much, ( I'm not an authority, mind you ! ) and could be just as likely to turn you down, especially if they've similar policy / mutual reason to the lot of folk next-door who you've been talking to, as it were ...

I'd say Sketch would be bound by the Securitas treaty just as much, ( I'm not an authority, mind you ! ) and could be just as likely to turn you down, especially if they've similar policy / mutual reason to the lot of folk next-door who you've been talking to, as it were ...

How unfortunate for you Shiron, that Komokom is precisely correct. You cannot so much as enter Europan orbit without the permission of both myself and Sketch in order to fulfil the demands of the Securitas Treaty - meaning you'll be going elsewhere for your water demands.

Have an absolutely peachy day now, you hear?

I think he's trying to say that radio and transmissions and all other communication methods aside, he has no interest in trading with you.

This is not the ice you're looking for. He can go about his business. Move along. (and such *grins*)

Hokay Shiron'-baby, let me try and explain this to our mutualy beneficial benefit one last time.

Imagine Europa, that's a pretty sweet planet huh? WRONG! But anyways, assuming the ice caps don't melt, the ozone layer leaving or a meteor come crashing into it we're definitely going to blow ourselves up ...

Right, back on track. Europa is protected by the treaty of Percautus-Securitas, (the full text of which can be found at http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=408619 ) which I'd like you to read so that you fully understand the following.

You can converse with Sketch all you like via radio, laser, quantum entanglement, weather balloon, carrier pigeon, paper aeroplane and smoke signal. Even if Sketch were to come to an arrangement with you, without BOTH signatories of the treaty agreeing, you cannot enter Europan space.

Let's reiterate that final point -

You CANNOT enter Europan space.



On this day, the twenty-ninth sunrise of the third month in the year of Earth Ascension five hundred and thirty one does the Serene^Union formally announce the ratification of the Treaty of Percautus-Securitas with The Aristocratic Oligarchy of Sketch. For all those whom are of curious nature from this day forth none save for the signatories of this treaty shall be permitted from landing or taking territory upon the Jovian moon of Europa under any circumstances barred those detailed below.





Before you get excited sparky, that "Landing and taking territory" includes approaching from orbit.

You have yourself a super day now!

You can scoop hydrogen out of Jupiter if you want. It's almost big enough to be a star, it's not like you'll be cutting into my supplies. Just stay relatively well clear of the actual locations of my shipyards and gas-mining bases, and we'll have no problems at all.

You can scoop hydrogen out of Jupiter if you want. It's almost big enough to be a star, it's not like you'll be cutting into my supplies. Just stay relatively well clear of the actual locations of my shipyards and gas-mining bases, and we'll have no problems at all.

Thanks, we will do that on occasion... gas gaint skimming is risky and New Shiron does use it when better options aren't available. Generally only relatively small ships (between the size of a 20th century 737 or a nuclear submarine) are risked in that fashion. Actually, Uranus is a safer Gas Gaint to attempt that as the radiation belt around Jupiter is severe (to say the least) but Uranus is inconvieniently distant

Not sure you caught the gist of the thread, but this isn't IC. I'd suggest that if you want to try and pursue IC actions, you take it up in an IC thread and see what happens with it.

After telling you 'no' several times, I can kinda understand how he'd start to cop a bit of an attitude. You didn't seem 'willing to drop it'. *shrugs*

ooc
actually I was willing to let the matter drop until he got smug. New Shiron ships have refueled using hydrogen from Jupiter, but the safer alternative was attempting to buy fuel and it seemed logical to attempt a trading relationship.

IC
A polite diplomatic message is sent to Kaenei that says essentially nothing but the gist is "perhaps in the future we will revisit this issue again"

OOC : Don't count on it Baby.

IC:

The transmission is logged and forwarded to some person or other for dual processing or other, with a response being sent out, or other.

"Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah! Motherland!"

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v228/NSIndy/Kaenei/Comrade.jpg
Comrade-Captain Verstozkisnasintor Salinidorzyznaskeotiraz .

actually I don't care where the attitude came from, its still pretty rude

I was indicating I was going to communicate with the other owner of Europa, and he basically said I couldn't which doesn't seem likely or reasonable. Now if Sketch told me to bugger off that would be different now wouldn't it? For now shall we just drop it? If Sketch appears I will attempt communication, if not, I won't.Rude or not, you're the one who kept pressing the issue when he kept OOCly telling you "no." Personally, I think his responses were downright restrained, if highly amusing. Since you clearly didn't understand the word "no" I observed that he found new and creative ways to say it.

According to the treaty he thoughtfully linked to, it doesn't matter what Sketch says. The answer is still "no." It would be the same result if Sketch were to say "no" and Kaenei wanted to discuss it with you. The terms of the treaty leave no possibility that you will ever get to play on that rock unless they're both in accord.

If at any time you're confused by any of this, feel free to swing by #nationstates on irc.esper.net and ask. You'll get plenty of feedback.

Thank you for playing! Please try again.

Standard Disclaimer: This message, like everything else in this thread, has been purely OOC (that's Out Of Character for the reading impaired).

actually, I asked him only once. Then he said no, and I couldn't approach the other government. I indicated his government or objections do not govern my actions regarding communicating with another government. I also indicated some confusion regarding the refusal to begin with. He then indicated a treaty existed. That treaty has been read. No information on that treaty existed prior to his post. I indicated that I would attempt to communicate with the other coowner should that person appear. He indicated I can't do that.

That isn't how it works. In real life, governments routinely communicate with each other. Treaties are also ignored, renegotiated, enforced etc. My objection is simply that he doesn't get to determine if Sketch and I communicate. Sketch does. Unless Sketch has a puppet involved with this, I haven't seen his opinion. However, this isn't important enough to worry about.

So in short, New Shiron has permission to refuel at Jupiter, and will do so occasionally. It doesn't have permission to approach Europa and will not approach that moon.

I think you're missunderstanding - I never said you couldn't talk to Sketch or its government. I simply said to do so is wasting your time, as the Securitas Treaty requires BOTH parties [Aka, me and Sketch] to agree. Since I've already said I won't agree, talking is pointless.

I've also had Vrak fighting a battle on your behalf on IRC - If you want to discuss this, I'd rather you did it yourself, unless he's acting on his won initiative which is fair enough.

actually Vrak is acting on his own initiative. I didn't learn about it until I checked my email a little while ago.

IRC software in any case makes my antique of a computer act up. Either way, lets just let it drop.

actually, I asked him only once. Then he said no, and I couldn't approach the other government. I indicated his government or objections do not govern my actions regarding communicating with another government. I also indicated some confusion regarding the refusal to begin with. He then indicated a treaty existed. That treaty has been read. No information on that treaty existed prior to his post. I indicated that I would attempt to communicate with the other coowner should that person appear. He indicated I can't do that.Hmm...that's not the way I remember it. Let's recap, shall we?

OOC:

The moon of Europa is entirely off limits I'm afraid, as well as the orbital space. The moon is divided between myself and Sketch, with the Northern hemisphere controlled by the latter and the southern by myself. The treaty of Securitas furthmore denies any colonising rights or territory outside of those two primary nations and a small number of outposts already present.

As for Ganymede and Triton, you'll have to keep watching this thread to see if anyone on there comes forward.To which you respond:

New Shiron, a peaceful nation of the Federated Klatchian States, wishes to enter into negotiations with the owners of Europa. Principally, New Shiron is wanting hydrogen (water in this case) in order to refuel its spacecraft which use MHD Hydrogen powerplants and grav thruster plate drive systems.

occ
I use technology rules for the Traveller RPG system and am Tech level 10 under those rules (actually the cusp of tech level 10 and late tech level 9)You then receive the following response:

I'm afraid not - Europa is off limits entirely to traffic not belonging to the Serene^Union, or the Empire of Sketch. Furthmore since both require agreement outside the emergency provisions of the Securitas treaty, and I am witholding permission there's not room for negotiation. I recommend you try other sources of Hydrogen within the Sol System, as nations within my own alliance have been turned down.

[/OOC]To which you say:

although puzzled a bit by the reply, New Shiron will simply approach Sketch instead.

ooc
let me get this straight.... you are unwilling to sell something you have a surplus of and miss the chance to also charge a transportation fee as well?Several people read this as you suggesting you'll bypass Kaenei by attempting to obtain water from Europa through Sketch. Culminating in Kaenei's clarification:

How unfortunate for you Shiron, that Komokom is precisely correct. You cannot so much as enter Europan orbit without the permission of both myself and Sketch in order to fulfil the demands of the Securitas Treaty - meaning you'll be going elsewhere for your water demands.

Have an absolutely peachy day now, you hear?So, to sum up, you propose a trade agreement to someone who has already stated there will be no trade or traffic with regard to that particular piece of property. You're told no, and you say, "Are you sure?" Then, apparently without realising it, imply that you'll just ignore him and go talk to the other guy. Then you wonder why people take on sarcastic tones.

I don't think anyone thought you were just going to "talk" to Sketch. You looked like you were going to try to bull your way onto Europa regardless of what Kaenei told you. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that maybe you really did just mean to go talk to Sketch about something else, but you certainly didn't phrase it that way.

However, I'm glad you're able to get what you need elsewhere and move on. Frankly, you're not doing yourself any favours here.

Standard Disclaimer: This has been, once again, an OOC message for the critically thinking impaired.

And it would be appreciated if you stopped spamming my thread with your Europan problems.

Like I said though, don't worry about the Sol system. Go make your own. I love the originality of my designs.

To see just how original I am, you should see my factbook. The links in my siggy.

ooc:

For New Shiron (and whoever else cares),

I'm probably a little late in coming out and saying this (I did just recently finish school and am in the process of acquiring a job and rescheduling my life for the summer), but everything that Kaenei has said so far regarding Europa is 100% correct.

We have carved the moon in two
We have agreed that no outsider is even permited to land without explicit permission from either of us
Neither of us is particularily interested in allowing outsiders to land here anyways

Given that even allies are mutually forbidden from making landfall, it would stand to reason that neither party would be interested in taking up your cause. Furthermore, despite your insistence at gaining a foothold and continual pestering of Kaenei, I have yet to receive any type of communication from you (ic or otherwise) regarding your desires.

Once again, Europa is C L O S E D