NationStates Jolt Archive


Space.

The Mindset
25-04-2005, 00:35
A recent roleplay in which I was fleetingly involved has prompted me to write this short essay. I am perhaps, one of the most prolific figures of the ESUS, even though practically no one has ever heard of me, let alone participated in a roleplay with me. So with this is mind, allow me to introduce myself. I am The Mindset, founder and current Co-Senior Director of the Extra Solar Union of Systems. I founded the ESUS a very long time ago, and it failed miserably. This is its second iteration, after being “restored” by Indra Prime. I am the one who oversees the actions of ESUS members, and moderates the ESUS forums.

Since the first roleplay to be held upon the Nationstates forum, some players have banded together in what can only be called gangs. These gangs tend to roleplay amongst themselves much more often than roleplaying with people from other gangs. Some gangs even set up their own private forums in which to play out their nation’s politics. The ESUS is a gang, as are the ToY and the Martian nations. Each is separate and distinct, with differing, long histories. One plays “Galactic Empires” while the others play “System Lord.” Does this give either side the intrinsic right to call each other wankers?

The Martian nations claim the members of the ESUS are wankers for having Empires that span dozens of systems, and command fleets of thousands including ships multiple kilometres in length. Are they wankers for this? Are they wankers for using the same system of “power determination” as the rest of the gang does? Perhaps in the ESUS gang a kilometre long ship is considered “small.” To a Martian gang member this ship might be classed as “huge,” but, if neither group interacts on a regular basis does it matter?

I don’t think so. I think the ESUS and the majority of Sol-based nations are so distinct that they could be classed as different tech levels. Would a modern tech nation consider a space tech nation wanking if it bombed it with ortillery? Yes, most likely. I think the same principle applies to the ESUS and it’s detractors. The ESUS is a higher tech level than those nations who follow the levels laid out by the Sol nations. This is not to say that the Sol nations are not powerful or able to destroy ESUS ships; rather, it is to say that Sol nations do not exist in the timeline of the majority of ESUS nations. To say that ESUS ships are more advanced than Sol nation ships is true, but as the old saying goes, an AK kills just as well as a lasergun. If the Sol nations were to extrapolate their current power a few thousand millennia, you might discover yourself similar to an ESUS nation.

The point of a game is to enjoy the activity. Frankly, I do not enjoy seeing the organisation I created being detracted by those who are not qualified. I sincerely doubt a modern tech organisation would like being detracted by those of the space tech community. The Sol nations enjoy the tight diplomatic interaction that is brought about by limited territorial space, limited resources and lesser technology/fleet sizes. The ESUS members prefer a universe more in line with Star Wars. We prefer battles on a galactic scale, in which we don’t have to worry about resources; rather, we can concentrate upon battles and strategy. You may look down upon this or consider it more worthy of the II forum, but what gives you that right? Roleplay style and appreciation is entirely subjective. What may be considered terrible, trashy plots and wanky fleets by one person may represent dashing heroes and epic storylines to another.

I will concede the point that many ESUS members are perhaps not the best roleplayers. But, frankly, 99% of Nationstates is full of shit roleplay. Fun is my prerogative, not form, style or even quality. Hell, I’d even roleplay with someone who’s a terrible wanker (not naming any names, of course) if I thought their premise looks fun. Surely someone else’s idea of fun is theirs, and shouldn’t be ridiculed by others? Does being a better speller/more talented writer give you the moral high ground, and the ability to openly mock those beneath you? No. It doesn’t. And, if you think it does, you’re not worthy of the ESUS. At the very least, we’re not arrogant.

Hence, I will say this once in the hope that it causes the elitists on both sides to think carefully about their misplaced bragging over a few hundred meters of imaginary metal: we’re different, we’re not compatible and neither side should detract from the other over something as silly as a game of elaborate chess, especially one in which some pieces are too large for the board.
Arizona Nova
25-04-2005, 00:49
*Wild Applause*

I'm Anithraldur, and I approve this message.

*rushes to put in siggy*
Penguenia
25-04-2005, 00:56
I agree for the most part. I see wank and bad RP everywhere, in pretty much every alliance, so I find it a little silly that one side of an opinion will act all holier-than-thou towards another. Some people see NS and II as different universes; I see them as two forums for two purposes. Someone who classifies someone as an ‘NSer or an IIer’ and refuses to RP on one forum or another is, frankly, a moron.

However, everyone has the right to RP amongst their own group, ignore others with or without reason, and think they’re better than another group of people – it’s called being human. Oh well, on the rare occasion I RP, weather it be on NS or II, and no matter what anyone thinks of my ability, I have fun. That's good enough for me.
Central Facehuggeria
25-04-2005, 01:29
The Allanean RP that you mentioned was a bad showing from all involved parties. IC posts that were only a paragraph or two long? Even (especially?) my RP sucked in that thread.
Allanea
25-04-2005, 02:03
And besides, what is this all about? Those Martians - their ships ,while smal, are very advanced and can take it and dish it out - The Ctan is into multikilometer monstrosities. I think, if the other guy RP's it well, I'll take it from a 300-meter frigate like I would from a 30-km capship. :fluffle:


Now can't we all be friends?
Weyr
25-04-2005, 02:27
@Allanea: please stop with the smileys; it makes you look like a n00b.

Anyways.....generally speaking it's a matter of approach. Triumverate states are geared more towards diplomacy. While they have a large force (~3,000 ships), they are by no means the most powerful alliance in Sol. Both Arda and the Seraphim Order are there to counter their expansion, and to force the Triumverate to work diplomatically. RP aside, the players behind the nations appear to preffer diplomacy and character RP to war and conquest.

ESUS has never had such problems, since the threats for which it was created have been destroyed relatively quickly on the NS time scale. The Shiavs were created to be defeated militarily, not diplomatically. All alliances that functioned in the same RP circles as ESUS have tended to whither and die, or grow even less active than ESUS. Either way, ESUS has absolutely no significant threats, and all threats that it will probably face in a plausible situation can be crushed in the same way the Galactic Empire crushed Weyr. Thus, ESUS is pointed towards war, and has no methodology for negotiation short of parking a fleet near any agressor, no matter how small, and threatening to destroy them.

The point is, ESUS has absolutely no experience with negotiation, or with anything short of utter destruction. Note that no ESUS state, Allanea inculded, has attempted to negotiate their way out of the blockade issue. Allanea moved its fleet in as soon as it could, provoked a blokade to open fire, and then called in its allies, many of whom simply charged on without bothering to find out what had been happening, instead trusting to Allanean point of view.

On the other hand, Mars did not attempt to negotiate for the given conflict, either. However, Martian states have had a significant history of dealing with Allanea and watching Allanea revert to its old ways as soon as it could. Allanea was forcibly removed from Mars after claiming land already givine by the Duma to Liangite colonists, who were then shot by Allanean colonists when they landed on what was legally Liangite soil. Granted, afterward Allanea nuked the Liangite colonists when Liang defeated the Allaneans, prompting several other martian states to get involved and bombard Allanea into the stone age after it refused several offers of surrender. ((One reason people ignore Allanea is because his recovery from massive artillery bombardment and occupation took only a few RL weeks, despite starvation, &ce)).

Now, I suggest anyone trying to call anyone else a wanker in a war read Knootoss's excellent thread on the issue. War in itself in NS is wank.It's a matter of whocan come up with the biggest guns, the best armor, and then still not get ignored. I can claim I've killed quite a few multikilometer ships with vessels no larger than the USS NImitz. Is the other RP-er the wanker for having oversized ships? Am I the wanker for having better ships? I suspect the biggest problem with wank comes when one side assumes it will automatically win, not when one side fields oversized craft.

[/end rant]
Allanea
25-04-2005, 03:02
Note that no ESUS state, Allanea inculded, has attempted to negotiate their way out of the blockade issue.

I would like to note I was the first to offer settlements, repeatedly, in both threads. My recovery from the ortillery bombardment took exactly 3 months. Aside from that, I agree with Weyr.
Crystal Palais
25-04-2005, 14:02
Actually, Weyr has something of a point; when an alliance seems geared toward being significantly military in nature, a similar threat on a similar scale must exist, in order to prevent stagnation of such an alliance.

As such, a cold war might be exactly what the ESUS needs, with occasional flare-ups and so forth. But who can say? For whatever reason, the GE (or at least a significant portion thereof) likes to sit in its galaxy and conveniently ignore anyone that it doesn't like on the principle of 'we're way over here, you can't reach us'. The ToY, well, we had a chance with that had our plans been refined; OOC coordination was due, until Unified Sith decided to be a little prick and mess that up totally. (Perhaps, however, we should try again someday. I think that could be quite interesting for everyone involved.)

Beyond that, I don't believe there are any future-tech alliances out there outside of those geared toward seriously limited theaters of operation, i.e. one planet or star system. This, in and of itself, presents quite a difficulty when attempting to go out and foster RP in the forums, especially when others drop a blanket ignore on someone for seemingly no reason, or simply because one has more ships or more advanced technology.
Crimmond
25-04-2005, 14:22
I am perhaps, one of the most prolific figures of the ESUS, even though practically no one has ever heard of me, let alone participated in a roleplay with me.
That's because you had a nervous breakdown and went on vacation after you tried to make that Jumpnode map. lol
The Mindset
25-04-2005, 15:07
Pretty much.
Rayverr
25-04-2005, 15:37
It would appear to me that if people do not like you, you should suck it up and not deal with them. Forcing yourself on them by saying "our style is legitimate too" will only get you the response "not when dealing with us" in return. If you wish to ignore the only non-negotiable statistic in this game (population) in return for super galactic empires, you not liking that people disagree with that seems to be a personal problem to me.

Also... it does not take much effort to see tons of support coming from people with "ESUS" in their signatures. Not exactly an unbiased set. You may also wish to check your rhetoric:
And, if you think it does, you’re not worthy of the ESUS. At the very least, we’re not arrogant.
Self-contradictory.
a game of elaborate chess
Objection: all variations of chess I have seen have rules. Equating FFRP to chess is a fallacious analogy. It may be how you play it, but then again, not all rectangles are squares.

Relax. You will live happier that way.
Abatoir
25-04-2005, 15:52
You have got to be kidding me.

You may look down upon this or consider it more worthy of the II forum, but what gives you that right? Roleplay style and appreciation is entirely subjective.You appear to have answered your own question.

Fun is my prerogative, not form, style or even quality.Oddly enough, I enjoy quality roleplay. But, hey, if you enjoy crap...

If the Sol nations were to extrapolate their current power a few thousand millennia, you might discover yourself similar to an ESUS nation.And you wonder why people consider you to be wankers?
The Mindset
25-04-2005, 16:03
You have misunderstood me. I have no forcing anything upon them, nor am I kidding myself that this would somehow "convince" people to play with ESUS-style nations. Far from it. And yes, the entire point of the essay was to point out that our style is legitimate, just as much as any other. Comparing too styles is in itself a fallacy.

The support coming from ESUS nations is simply due to the fact that I happened to link this on the ESUS forums.

The contradiction was deliberate. Irony is apparently lost on you.

Again, you're missing the point. My essay was supposed to show that there is more than one set of rules. As shown by my addition to that analogy of "some pieces being too large for the board." The irony is once again lost.

At Abatoir: if playing a nation a thousand years more advanced than what is "realistic" is wanking, every space nation on NS, including those based in Sol, are wankers. Your logic is terrible.
Atlantian Outcasts
25-04-2005, 16:07
Pretty much.

*snickers* Its like there's a rule that anyone who tries to make a map for NS thats bigger then a region will go insaine.
Rayverr
25-04-2005, 16:26
And apparently you missed my primary point. The entire essay reads as an extended whine on why you are valid and why people should acknowledge that.

My point is: who cares? One man's munchkin is anothter man's realist; stop wasting effort trying to say "well, I'm special too" and just do what you enjoy. You do not need to justify yourself to anyone unless you, for some reason, wish those people to be amenable towards (i.e. to play with) you in the future.

Sarcasm (what you are currently calling irony) translates poorly to text, especially when it does not fit into the overall attitude of the writing ("I'm special too [insert snide twist here]"). Thank you for indicating exactly which side of the elitist divide you happen to be on by suggesting that my reading comprehension skills are deficient--there is a difference between explaining yourself and continuing on and assuming that because there was perhaps a misunderstanding the other person is automatically at fault.
Five Civilized Nations
25-04-2005, 16:55
And you haven't said and written anything whiny Rayverr? Do not judge severely unless you wish to be judged severely.

As a senior ESUS member, I think it is best that I speak up. I do not intend to justify what the ESUS and the Nationstates community as a whole has done, but I wish to comment on the amount of tension and conflict inherent in the disagreements with regards to RP ability, style, and focus.

There is no need for justification with regards to what people RP with. I am happy RPing across a broad spectrum as aspects, anywhere from fantasy tech all the way to space/future tech. If you feel that some aspects of RPs don't fit your style or ability, just don't RP with people with such a style and ability. RP with people who you feel suits you. If you wish to RP with people with different styles, abilities, and maybe even time periods, talk to them using an OOC thread, IRC channel, or instant messenging. There is no need to have IC RPing threads disintegrate due to stupidity and disagreement.

And lasty, people must understand that this is just a game, a fantasy, a figment sprung from Max Barry's imagination. If you feel that this is your life, then I have nothing to say.

As this is a game, there is completely no necessity to explode or go off on rants. If you feel the need to rant about something, don't. Take a deep breath and calm down. Remember this is not real life. Nothing can come close to replace that. Live your life and dream your dreams.
Central Facehuggeria
25-04-2005, 20:35
Oddly enough, I enjoy quality roleplay. But, hey, if you enjoy crap...

Oddly enough, what one man defines as quality is different than another. For instance, I am very fond of military RPs with a heavy character element, RPing from the front lines. I would define that as quality. But would someone who hates writing about war and death and such define that as quality? Probably not. Point being that what you consider quality RPing and what I consider quality RPing are not necessarily the same thing. So who is right with their philosophy? Neither of course, and that's the whole point of Mindset's rant.

And you wonder why people consider you to be wankers?

I'm guessing that was either a typeo or Mindset was trying to make a statement. I'm leaning towards the former because AFAIK, not a single ESUS member has history that stretches back that far. Oh, wait. Sskiss does, but he's a dinosaur nation and most of his population was eradicated by a big asteroid as part of his backstory, so he started off just as everyone else. He's just got a richer backstory to draw off of.
Five Civilized Nations
26-04-2005, 02:51
I'm guessing that was either a typeo or Mindset was trying to make a statement. I'm leaning towards the former because AFAIK, not a single ESUS member has history that stretches back that far. Oh, wait. Sskiss does, but he's a dinosaur nation and most of his population was eradicated by a big asteroid as part of his backstory, so he started off just as everyone else. He's just got a richer backstory to draw off of.
There’s also my nations’ backstory, but that’s only for my fantasy and past RPing…
Auman
26-04-2005, 05:09
Mindset, half the fun of running a galactic campaign is the economy of force that you so disapprove of! If soldiers never ran out of provisions like fuel, ammunition and food there would be no real element of strategy other than "I took Otagia Maxima with a kajillion ships OH JEAH!"
Austar Union
26-04-2005, 05:33
OOC: The Mindset, while I appreciate your right to enjoyment on Nationstates, I too share in the belief that everyone has a right to roleplay basically as you want. I honestly think that ESUS nations are utterly stupid and I disrespect everyone [most] in it, and the organisation as a whole. But if you really believe in a 'leave us alone and we'll leave you alone' attitude, then at least act it out. Your kind arent welcome in my world, which is Sol mostly. So keep on your side of the fence, and I'll stay on mine. I dont want your wanked [BigMetalPenis'] in my roleplays, so stay out.
Abatoir
26-04-2005, 06:32
Oddly enough, what one man defines as quality is different than another.Please to be reading for content. The Mindset clearly stated that quality was a secondary concern after "having fun".

I'm guessing that was either a typeo or Mindset was trying to make a statement.That's one hell of a typo...

"Several thousand millenia" is not a few thousand years. It's a few million years. The vast majority of players are going to view a nation millions of years in the future as wank. If nothing else, they will be far to advanced for interaction.

To say nothing of the base idiocy of assuming you have any idea what technology and society will be like that far in the future.

At Abatoir: if playing a nation a thousand years more advanced than what is "realistic" is wanking, every space nation on NS, including those based in Sol, are wankers. Your logic is terrible.See above. Your math is terrible. You do know what a millenium is, right?
The Mindset
26-04-2005, 07:50
Actually, that was a typo. I was meaning one thousand, becoming confused with the French "mille".

Also, Auman, I'm not sure exactly where you get the idea that I disprove of economy or supply lines - in fact, the very opposite is the case.

OOC: The Mindset, while I appreciate your right to enjoyment on Nationstates, I too share in the belief that everyone has a right to roleplay basically as you want. I honestly think that ESUS nations are utterly stupid and I disrespect everyone [most] in it, and the organisation as a whole. But if you really believe in a 'leave us alone and we'll leave you alone' attitude, then at least act it out. Your kind arent welcome in my world, which is Sol mostly. So keep on your side of the fence, and I'll stay on mine. I dont want your wanked [BigMetalPenis'] in my roleplays, so stay out.
Considering I have never interacted with you, have no intentions of interacting with you, and given a choice, wouldn't interact with you - I fail to see what you have accomplished with this post. Conversely, I think those with your attitude are utterly stupid and I have absolutely no respect for you or your comrades, but lets not allow this thread to devolve into petty insults.
Central Facehuggeria
26-04-2005, 11:35
OOC:
I dont want your wanked [BigMetalPenis'] in my roleplays, so stay out.

Okay, where is this wanked [BigMetalPenis] you speak of? The size of ESUS member fleets? Because no ESUS member with sense would deploy their whole fleet in a low-power area like Sol, if only to make the RP fun for both sides. The physical size of ESUS member ships? I fail to see how big ships are automatically wank, especially if you only have a few big ships in total. If the idea of big ships fits in with your nation's character and you fully understand the benefits and drawbacks of a few big ships compared to a good number of little ships, I don't see why you can't build ginormous ships. The ESUS weaponry? I don't know about you, but my most powerful weapons are plotdevices that I don't use in a regular RP. My really powerful weapons only get used on NPC worlds (or enemy ships when both sides agree) to advance the plot of whatever story I'm writing.

Now personally, I have gone to extremely great lengths to balance my military. It's got many drawbacks as well as strengths. Come to think of it, I think the drawbacks outnumber the strengths. Eh, it's more fun to RP as though you're in danger anyway. But I digress.

Automatically assuming that my military is 'wank' because I'm in the ESUS for instance is folly. It would be like me arbitrarily calling all mercury nations wank because the technology needed to survive there would have to be “teh uber!!1” (Not that the above statement is necessarily true, I know little of Mercury other than the fact that it is really hot, but I’m making a point.)
The Caloris Basin
26-04-2005, 11:48
As the only nation to dwell exclusively on Mercury (as opposed to having colonies)...

It would be like me arbitrarily calling all mercury nations wank because the technology needed to survive there would have to be “teh uber!!1” (Not that the above statement is necessarily true, I know little of Mercury other than the fact that it is really hot, but I’m making a point.)

Mercury is far more than just "hot". It is also extremely cold, indeed it has the greatest temperature ranges of any planet in the system (Venus is the hottest, Pluto the coldest). Furthermore, it has a surprizingly strong magnetic field (compared to its size and other planets' utter lack thereof), which can cause a host of problems. Plus, the thin atmosphere provides no protection from the radiation emitted by the Sun.

However, you are right that claiming my tech to be wank is off base. Using current and existing tech, modern-day America could send astronauts to Mercury. Their time on the planet would be limited in duration, but the rotation is excentric enough that there are sizable periods of time within human tolerance. Therefore it is not beyond the realm of reality for a nation to exist on the planet.

Especially when said nation is a nation of solar-powered mechanoids, the sentients amung them being liquid metal.

Anyway, as for the whole metal penii comment, my assumption is that people are balking at "young" nations having galactic empires, large fleets (regardless of where they're located) and large ships within said fleets.
Allanea
26-04-2005, 15:48
OOC: And if nothing else, the idea that people who want big weapons/ships/whatever are "compensating" is ridiculous. A ship, Austar, is a feminine, rather than a phallic, symbol. :) :) :) :)
Santa Barbara
26-04-2005, 17:39
I feel like contributing to this thread.

Wait, no I don't. Carry on. :)
Auman
26-04-2005, 19:46
"The ESUS members prefer a universe more in line with Star Wars. We prefer battles on a galactic scale, in which we don’t have to worry about resources; rather, we can concentrate upon battles and strategy."

I believe those are your words Mindset. Ive also noticed you dont understand the meaning of economy of force. Economy of Force, basically, is an armed force having to parcel out equipment carefully in a warzone. Deployment of troops based on limited numbers. The amount of firepower in one area may bolster one front, but take away from another. Also, economy of force is the conservative use of resources based on a lack of supplies.

Note the Germans in WW2, as an example, sending the majority of their Tiger tanks to the east, where as North Africa and Western Europe got a very thin smattering of these vehicles.
Central Facehuggeria
26-04-2005, 19:54
Anyway, as for the whole metal penii comment, my assumption is that people are balking at "young" nations having galactic empires, large fleets (regardless of where they're located) and large ships within said fleets.


Well, the problem there is that a lot of the ESUS isn't made up of 'young nations.' The average is around two to three billion in terms of population, AFAIK.

I believe those are your words Mindset. Ive also noticed you dont understand the meaning of economy of force. Economy of Force, basically, is an armed force having to parcel out equipment carefully in a warzone. Deployment of troops based on limited numbers. The amount of firepower in one area may bolster one front, but take away from another. Also, economy of force is the conservative use of resources based on a lack of supplies.

Neato. I sort of already practiced that without even knowing what the word meant. :p I've got to parcel out ships and men very carefully, otherwise I run into supply problems, not having enough ships and men to go around. It's one of my major IC weaknesses that I cultivate to keep my nation balanced.
The Mindset
26-04-2005, 20:04
Not worrying about resources doesn't necessarily imply that I ignore the need for them entirely. It simply means it is not one of my major priorities in roleplaying a nation. I have an entire backstory on how the majority of my territory is farmland in order to feed my crews, and that we primarily use elements created as byproducts of nuclear fusion. I do not worry about intricate economic fluctuations. I assume my food and resource supplies are sufficient for most operations, and will defend/establish supply lines where needed.
Auman
26-04-2005, 20:08
You know I just thought of this...but we Sol nations can just assumed to be so much more advanced than you rimworlders that we dont need 10km long phallices. And that we have the technology to cram the same amount of firepower into a ship of 500 meters. Being as Sol is the cradle of human civilization, unless you ESUS types are aliens or Battlestar'esque human societies.

I prefer to assume that Aumanii fleet designs are so hightech that it would be impossible to explain the systems used in it and thus, can fight any wank on equal terms. My dreadnought, being 410 meters long, can still knock out a ship of equal class that is 20 kilometers long.
Rayverr
26-04-2005, 20:13
And you haven't said and written anything whiny Rayverr? Do not judge severely unless you wish to be judged severely... <so on and so forth>
On here? No, I have not. I am of the firm opinion that this is neither the time nor the place for it... and yet, despite starting with an attack, you appear to be the only person who gets it. Good job.

If ESUS is tired of being called wankers, they have two options: change, or stop caring. Seeing how they do not wish to change, they should stop ranting that other people do not appreciate them and simply appreciate themselves. If they are incapable of doing that... not my problem, although continued complaining will simply lead to further annoyance.

As for the supposed injustice of people calling them wankers in the first place... people have a right to their opinions, no matter whether they be grounded in reality or not. I will admit, reading through several ESUS roleplays, I am very much less than impressed... as long as they stay out of my way and I theirs, however, this is not actually a problem.

Given that it is highly unlikely that anyone will change their minds on this, shall we all simply agree to disagree and end any pointless bickering here?
Central Facehuggeria
26-04-2005, 20:24
You know I just thought of this...but we Sol nations can just assumed to be so much more advanced than you rimworlders that we dont need 10km long phallices. And that we have the technology to cram the same amount of firepower into a ship of 500 meters. Being as Sol is the cradle of human civilization, unless you ESUS types are aliens or Battlestar'esque human societies.

Just to let you know, some ESUS types *are* aliens, and others (like myself, TST, amongst others) have been based in Sol for the entirety of their existance, only branching out to other systems but keeping the majority of the population on Earth.

My only problem with the thought that Sol nations are so much more advanced than many ESUS members is 'why haven't you expanded throughout the galaxy.'

And of course, the doctrine that the exclusively Solar nations take is important too. If they focus on quantity and pump out hundreds of crappy craft, would one of those craft be able to take on a ship from an ESUS member who focused entirely on quality? (As I or Kanuckistan have done.) Probably not, but you could overwhelm the qualitatively superior craft with numbers.

I prefer to assume that Aumanii fleet designs are so hightech that it would be impossible to explain the systems used in it and thus, can fight any wank on equal terms. My dreadnought, being 410 meters long, can still knock out a ship of equal class that is 20 kilometers long.

Of course. That's how my system works, except that my nation has an IC bias towards big craft. If someone RPs well, they can defeat and destroy even my largest craft with a twenty meter fighter. Of course, I'm not going to make it easy since I only have a grand total of twelve capital ships, but it is eminently possible. What sort of quality-quantity ratio do you use?
The Mindset
26-04-2005, 20:32
Rayyverr - you do realise that there is over fifty member nations of ESUS? I have already admitted that a lot of ESUS nations are less than fantastic roleplayers, but I sincerely think you're being incredibly dismissive to label all members by the lowest common denominator.
Central Facehuggeria
26-04-2005, 20:40
I will admit, reading through several ESUS roleplays, I am very much less than impressed...

Right. And these roleplays you've read are? There hasn't been an ESUS alliance roleplay (the whole ESUS, or even a good part of it) besides the Allanean blockade crapfest here for a long, long time. Before the Jolt switch IIRC. (Or perhaps a short time after.)

Edit: Come to think of it, a lot of the members didn't even get involved in the Allanean thread.

Individual members do RPs, but they are not necessarily indicative of the entire alliance. A lot of the better RPers in the ESUS are more concerned with their own affairs and will only enter an RP when there's a direct threat to them or when someone invokes the ESUS charter.

Browsing your RPs, you have no right to boast. They are better than my own, but not by orders of magnitude, and I'm on the lower tier of RPing ability in the ESUS. ESUS members like Kanuckistan, Indra, 5CN, and so forth are far better than I am. Of course there are people worse than I am in the ESUS. Every alliance has that problem, except perhaps the ultra-elitist ones that only let in a very select group of people.
The Mindset
26-04-2005, 20:49
There's also the ESUS Forum, which is highly active. The roleplay forum alone contains over 1200 private ESUS roleplays. We're actually a fairly internal organisation since our forums are so active.
Central Facehuggeria
26-04-2005, 20:52
There's also the ESUS Forum, which is highly active. The roleplay forum alone contains over 1200 private ESUS roleplays. We're actually a fairly internal organisation since our forums are so active.

Woah. That's a lot. Wait a minute... 1200? That seems a bit high, unless you're counting the ones we've lost in assorted forum failures.
Sskiss
26-04-2005, 20:57
CF, I wouldn't sell yourself quite so short. In my opinion, you are a good RP'er, maybe not the best around, but still pretty good. As for myself, I've never had any complaints, and have been complimented by others outside the ESUS on occasion. I've never at any rate been accused of tech wanking or godmodding.

I'm just here to have fun. What is the most important to me is the creation of my race and it's history, rather than the size of my ships, few of which are more than half a kilometer long.
The Mindset
26-04-2005, 21:08
Woah. That's a lot. Wait a minute... 1200? That seems a bit high, unless you're counting the ones we've lost in assorted forum failures.

There's 1200 topics in the roleplay forum. I was assuming one topic per roleplay, which is perhaps not the best measure of the number of roleplays, but nonetheless we have a significant internal roleplaying community.

EDIT: Oops, I was looking at the wrong column. 62 roleplays, 1200+ posts.
Auman
27-04-2005, 00:44
"My only problem with the thought that Sol nations are so much more advanced than many ESUS members is 'why haven't you expanded throughout the galaxy..."

Well I think the answer to that is quite simple. Why should we? If there are races and societies all through out the galaxy to trade with, why should we leave our nice safe little bubble? Furthermore, we have moved out into the galaxy. Yut for instance has several extremely detailed exploration threads.

I myself have a Pan-dimensional empire, though its only a plot device used in my own tabletop wargaming campaigns. I decided to throw it into nationstates. Why expand through out the galaxy when I can just travel to unpopulated dimensions and raid the untapped, and incredible, resources of Sol?


"...And of course, the doctrine that the exclusively Solar nations take is important too. If they focus on quantity and pump out hundreds of crappy craft, would one of those craft be able to take on a ship from an ESUS member who focused entirely on quality? (As I or Kanuckistan have done.) Probably not, but you could overwhelm the qualitatively superior craft with numbers."

Now I cant say for anyone else. But I produce a low number of fine quality space craft in my nation. Though small, Ive always roleplayed them as being able to punch more than well above their weight. Though from what Ive seen, ESUS usually has the higher ship numbers. Seeing as Auman only has 350 ships(on paper) and Bajon only 200, I would think these ships are highly capable. Though not bristling with as many guns as your ESUS ships, Ive always rp'd my craft possessing extremely potent weapons, being able to destroy most armour on contact, shields of course are a completely different matter.
Central Facehuggeria
27-04-2005, 00:59
"Well I think the answer to that is quite simple. Why should we? If there are races and societies all through out the galaxy to trade with, why should we leave our nice safe little bubble? Furthermore, we have moved out into the galaxy. Yut for instance has several extremely detailed exploration threads.

I was thinking that living space and food production would be a major concern. Guess not.

Now I cant say for anyone else. But I produce a low number of fine quality space craft in my nation. Though small, Ive always roleplayed them as being able to punch more than well above their weight. Though from what Ive seen, ESUS usually has the higher ship numbers. Seeing as Auman only has 350 ships(on paper) and Bajon only 200, I would think these ships are highly capable. Though not bristling with as many guns as your ESUS ships, Ive always rp'd my craft possessing extremely potent weapons, being able to destroy most armour on contact, shields of course are a completely different matter.

Neat. Nice to see another quality based fleet out there. To answer your question, yes. Most ESUS members have a fleet from around 1,000 ships to 5,000 ships. Others, mainly Kanuckistan and myself favor quality, having less than twenty capital ships total. I agree that your ships would be highly capable against the extremely vast majority of ESUS members' fleets.
Penguenia
27-04-2005, 01:27
People who are taking what one member of the ESUS says and thinking it applies to every one of them need to get out of that mindset. Everything posted in this thread is the opinion of whoever posted it (such as the ‘thousand years forward’ comment); unless they specified that they speak for someone other than themselves. Same thing goes for judging individual members on the actions of the more active ones.

Quite frankly, I think the majority of the ESUS tech/numberwanks and I could care less if anyone insults those people (yes, I hate most of my allies’ approaches to roleplay and technology and am enough of an asshole to say it). However, when I see someone say ‘OMG the ESUS are a bunch of wankers, I have no respect for them’, it’s pretty angering. Think what you will about the members who are horrible wankers, but don’t include every member of the alliance when insulting them. A few of us (mostly absent in this thread, but they know who they are), believe it or not, actually hold ourselves to pretty high anti-wank standards.

Now, some people may think to themselves, “Well, why don’t you just leave the ESUS if you feel that way?” I actually ask myself that same question sometimes. I believe the answer would be the sense of loyalty to the alliance that was joined (in contrast to what the alliance has become).

Please, differentiate between ‘ESUS’ and ‘wanker in the ESUS’. Once that has been achieved, all will be well.

Auman: Speaking of ‘pan-dimensional’, I was looking forward to you completing that RP with byram on the Triskele Games forums, you think you’ll ever complete that?
Auman
27-04-2005, 08:11
Penguenia, I knew it had to be you on the boards! I'll get around to it as soon as I get a break from work long enough to get out of this haze.

Central Facehuggeria, quit being so hostile.
Honru
27-04-2005, 08:34
Given that it is highly unlikely that anyone will change their minds on this, shall we all simply agree to disagree and end any pointless bickering here?

I think most RPers are like birds with a mirror, they can't help crashing headlong into something they perceive as challenging them. I'm guilty of this to some degree, though I had the decency to simply drop out of Martian politics rather than post some long OOC rant about how they're a bunch of arrogant dicks. I did that ICly instead.
Honru
27-04-2005, 08:38
In case its not apparent, the above post should have been made by Skeelzania. Forgot I was on as one of my protectorates.
Central Facehuggeria
27-04-2005, 11:23
Central Facehuggeria, quit being so hostile.

What? I'm not being hostile to you, at least not consciously. If I was, I would have gone to a lot more effort to point out any problems that I could see in your ideas. In this case, I just literally shrugged it away. If you guys don't RP as being worried about living space or food production, that's fine by me.
Der Angst
27-04-2005, 11:33
What? I'm not being hostile to you, at least not consciously. If I was, I would have gone to a lot more effort to point out any problems that I could see in your ideas. In this case, I just literally shrugged it away. If you guys don't RP as being worried about living space or food production, that's fine by me.Oh, we do. Hence, hyperurbanisation & hydrophonics (Or, alternatively, import).

We do also care about actual industrial capacities, cost/ benefit analysis, infrastructure and the likes...
Sskiss
27-04-2005, 12:01
For craps sake people, this is just a game, have fun, shake hands and make up and be done with it. I personally have nothing against anyone here.

We all focus on different things when creating our "nation" (my people do not see ourselves as a "nation", but rather a race). As for myself, I focused on my races evolutionary history, it's biology, behavior and to a slightly lesser extant, the systems and "crecheworlds" that it inhabites. Most of my ships are small to medium sized and or under half a kilometer, 6 are in the 1 kilometer range, 3 are in the five kilometer range and I have 1 that in the 8 kilometer range. Also, my ships have a very unique design and construction procedure (well, there "grown/molded" actually). My role playing style (for those who know me) is also very unique, and I use this style to convey the "alieness" of my race.

Mindset was just trying to say what a lot of people here really think, give him some credit for honesty's sake.
The Most Glorious Hack
27-04-2005, 12:21
My only problem with the thought that Sol nations are so much more advanced than many ESUS members is 'why haven't you expanded throughout the galaxy.'

The Most Glorious Hack is ranked 1st in the region and 3rd in the world for Largest Information Technology Sector.

Because I don't feel like it?
Because there's more than enough spacedy nations as is?
Because the very act of becoming spacedy dances dangerously close to wank no matter how good you are at it?

I was thinking that living space and food production would be a major concern. Guess not.

I did an entire thread on the creation of a second megalopolis to house my teaming population. I've done quite a bit of work on "The Warrens", describing how the Hack not only built up but also built down, as well as describing the claustrophia and outright dangerousness of the lower levels.

Then again, seems to me that being in a ship in space would present more food production problems than being on fertile ground with GM food...
The Mindset
27-04-2005, 14:51
Of course it does. The majority of my ships have an operational timescale of a few weeks max., quite simply because food would run out otherwise. 95% of my territory outside my homeworld is undefended farmland, and has been ever since I hit 1 billion population.

Also, UN rankings are hardly paid attention to by the ESUS - we consider the UN either obsolete or evolved so far from it's present form in our timeline as to be unrecogniseable. Hence, very few ESUS members are UN members. Also, the idea that it's a level scale of how advanced you are is ridiculous - a nation which roleplays medieval tech may rank higher in the information technology sector than one which is an alien race.
Central Facehuggeria
27-04-2005, 19:58
Oh, we do. Hence, hyperurbanisation & hydrophonics (Or, alternatively, import).

We do also care about actual industrial capacities, cost/ benefit analysis, infrastructure and the likes...

Okay. I was just putting living space and food forward as some of the reasons a nation would expand from the already crowded Sol system. Or an alternative may be to get away from the Sol governments and start fresh, or any number of other myriad reasons.

But why are you mentioning industrial capacities and similar things to me? I said nothing about them, so I'm not sure how they enter into the discussion here.

Because I don't feel like it?
Because there's more than enough spacedy nations as is?
Because the very act of becoming spacedy dances dangerously close to wank no matter how good you are at it?

The first two are perfectly fine, but I'm curious about the last one. What about being extra solar makes a nation dangerously close to wank? Wank in my mind is a lack of balance (lacking weaknesses as well as strengths.) Come to think of it, the only real thing you need to be extra solar is an FTL drive and a desire to be so.
Der Angst
28-04-2005, 08:29
Okay. I was just putting living space and food forward as some of the reasons a nation would expand from the already crowded Sol system. Or an alternative may be to get away from the Sol governments and start fresh, or any number of other myriad reasons.

But why are you mentioning industrial capacities and similar things to me? I said nothing about them, so I'm not sure how they enter into the discussion here. Not very good at interpreting, I see.

Oh, and please note that I have no problem with going extrasolar. I fail to see how one can support controlling thousands of systems, having thousands of ships the average of which requires a hundred times the resources you need for a supercarrier, irl, with a nation of typical NS size.

And while I'm not really caring when people keep it for themselves, in their circle, I have very much a problem if people try to force such upon others, playing a different style, as it evidently happened on Mars.

And the style of Fenix, imploded economy, 'BUT I'M AI AND I HAVE NO MONEY SO MY ECONOMY WORKS PERFECTLY WELL I PWN YUO!!!11 ' is, well, how could I put it...

Not good for ESUS' reputation.

... And incidentally, this is why I mentioned industrial capacities.
The Most Glorious Hack
28-04-2005, 09:43
The first two are perfectly fine, but I'm curious about the last one. What about being extra solar makes a nation dangerously close to wank? Wank in my mind is a lack of balance (lacking weaknesses as well as strengths.) Come to think of it, the only real thing you need to be extra solar is an FTL drive and a desire to be so.

Because I've yet to see any major power use an FTL method that doesn't bend the laws of physics over the table.
The Mindset
28-04-2005, 10:05
Tell that to the millions of sci-fi writers out there.

Der Angst, basing your opinion of the ESUS on one member is pretty narrow minded. I control no systems. I have six undefended planets which are designated farms, and three cityships. My military industrial capacity is limited because my government was pacifist for about 800 years, and I just lost a chunk of my population in a roleplay. My fleet is tiny by ESUS standards, and even then the ships themselves are small. I fail to see how equating Fenix's shortcomings onto me works.
The Most Glorious Hack
28-04-2005, 10:19
Tell that to the millions of sci-fi writers out there.

Appeal to Popularity. Yawn.
The Mindset
28-04-2005, 10:26
You say twisting physics for roleplay purposes is wank? Then I call you on realism-wank. Yawn.
Der Angst
28-04-2005, 10:37
Der Angst, basing your opinion of the ESUS on one member is pretty narrow minded. I control no systems. I have six undefended planets which are designated farms, and three cityships. My military industrial capacity is limited because my government was pacifist for about 800 years, and I just lost a chunk of my population in a roleplay. My fleet is tiny by ESUS standards, and even then the ships themselves are small. I fail to see how equating Fenix's shortcomings onto me works.Oh, actually, *one* member is a little, lets say, not what I am basing it on.

I have read posts/ entire threads of people like, say, Kanuckistan, Kormanthor, Indra Prime, Klonor, The Emperor Fenix, CorpSac, Crystal Palais, DemonLordEnigma, Allanea, Tappee, The Silver Turtle (To go by the registered nations in the ESUS forums).

Of those, only the last two didn't push me off in one way or another. And that is quite some percentage, even taking in account the members of whom I've never actually read any posts. Or at least, not any notable ones.

And frankly, I don't care about any kind of justification or 'But our way is legitimate, too!'. I don't want to have anything to do with it Apart from TST, anyway. (And I would mention that there is at least one case where the feeling is mutual, which is, incidentally, nothing I have any problems with), so I don't.

And, to come back to what Rayverr told you... It doesn't really help you if you whine about 'Our way is legitimate, too!!!11. Either accept the fact that not everyone is willing to play by your rules, or change. What your eventual choice will be is, frankly, irrelevant to me, so long as there are not four or more ESUS members trying to trample all over Mars with their OMG INTERGALACTIC EMPIRES!

Which is, incidentally, what sparked this.
The Most Glorious Hack
28-04-2005, 10:59
You say twisting physics for roleplay purposes is wank? Then I call you on realism-wank. Yawn.

Truly a wounding retaliation. Is this where I elevate things by talking about how my dad can beat up your dad?

School-yard come-backs and the rather obvious fact that you haven't read a damn thing I've written (otherwise you'd never bring up such a feeble comment as "realism-wank") aside, you have failed to address my point.

90% of the nations that use FTL are grossly violating the laws of physics and/or reality. Yes, this includes spacedy players I deeply respect, such as Scolopendra or Kaenei. There's really only one form of FTL I would even consider using myself, and I've only seen a couple nations use it.

Does this mean I don't acknowledge nations that use FTL? Of course not. However, it does add "wank" to their nation. When you start adding other absurdities (such as planets that have all one ecotype ((ie: "desert" planets, "forest" planets, "farm" planets)) or the ownership of multiple planets) the nation quickly reaches the point where I simply want nothing to do with them.

And normally this doesn't matter, as nations I consider wank (or incompatible; like a high-fantasy or prehistoric nation) have no interaction with me or nations I play with. When these nations force the issue (ie: the recent Mars bitchfest) I tend to speak up.

But, as Der Angst (and Rayverr before) said, whining about how people don't accept you isn't likely to change things.
GMC Military Arms
28-04-2005, 11:13
You say twisting physics for roleplay purposes is wank? Then I call you on realism-wank. Yawn.

PUB ACTION!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v453/GMCMA/Other%20stuff/pa_01.jpg
Central Facehuggeria
28-04-2005, 11:38
Because I've yet to see any major power use an FTL method that doesn't bend the laws of physics over the table.

Yeah, but that's sort of a prerequisite to having a workable FTL drive unless you've got a physics degree. That most NS players aren't physicists doesn't help the issue either.

Not very good at interpreting, I see.

Guess not. Please explain what exactly you mean in nice, simple terms then.

I fail to see how one can support controlling thousands of systems

How many ESUS members actually have thousands of systems? I have twelve, and only four of them have any more than one or two million people in them.


What your eventual choice will be is, frankly, irrelevant to me, so long as there are not four or more ESUS members trying to trample all over Mars with their OMG INTERGALACTIC EMPIRES!

Which is, incidentally, what sparked this.

Of course, everyone as far as I saw was only sending a tiny portion of their "OMG INTERGALACTIC FLEET!11" The reason for that was to make the RP more interesting, specifically so that the ESUS members didn't trample over Mars.

However, it does add "wank" to their nation. When you start adding other absurdities (such as planets that have all one ecotype ((ie: "desert" planets, "forest" planets, "farm" planets)) or the ownership of multiple planets) the nation quickly reaches the point where I simply want nothing to do with them.

I may just be incredibly dense, but I can't see how owning multiple planets is wank. History has governments claiming more land than they can easily populate.
GMC Military Arms
28-04-2005, 11:58
Yeah, but that's sort of a prerequisite to having a workable FTL drive unless you've got a physics degree. That most NS players aren't physicists doesn't help the issue either.

<Marvels at all the physics grads in the world who in fact still cannot design a working or workable FTL system>

I may just be incredibly dense, but I can't see how owning multiple planets is wank. History has governments claiming more land than they can easily populate.

How is claiming a small area of a single planet's surface in any way similiar to claiming an entire celestial body in a manner that implies you can defend this claim? Further, how could a body of <5 billion people possibly have the resources available to them to colonise multiple planets, and what would be the point?

That you must say 'we just do' is the wank element.
The Most Glorious Hack
28-04-2005, 12:01
Yeah, but that's sort of a prerequisite to having a workable FTL drive unless you've got a physics degree. That most NS players aren't physicists doesn't help the issue either. You're the one who asked why players are still on earth. I gave my reasons. No need to get pissy because you don't like my answer.

I may just be incredibly dense, but I can't see how owning multiple planets is wank. History has governments claiming more land than they can easily populate....

So... you're saying you don't understand the difference between claiming a few more islands than you can properly control and claiming a few planets?

And I see GMC beat me to the punch. Ah well.
Allanea
28-04-2005, 12:04
Further, how could a body of <5 billion people possibly have the resources available to them to colonise multiple planets, and what would be the point?

I suppose they would do it in the same way people colonised the Wild West. Except, of course, that with FT technlogoy, it would be possible to quickly set up basic amenities in those FT miner towns:)

Personally, I control two major extra-solar colonies - Nova-Texas, a thing about the size of North America [minus Canada] on Zarahemla and New-Idaho, a terrestrial-sized planed, 95% of the land suface of which belong to me as I allow an ally to maintain a colony.

New-Idaho is populated by 150 million people.


50 million people live in Nova-Texas.

When the colonisation is complete, I expect that about 500 million people would live in New-Idaho.

Do you see what I mean?
Treznor
28-04-2005, 12:30
OOC: I've said it before and I'll say it again. It's not what you wank, it's how you wank it. Some people can write purely wank material and get away with it. Some can't. Everyone has their own standards for what is acceptable and what isn't. That's why this is a cooperative role-play effort. If you can't cooperate, you can't role-play together.

I have yet to be impressed by anything proposed or role-played by ESUS. I therefore assert my right to choose my role-play partners, or not. You may not force your role-play upon me because you feel I ought to. In return, I may not gloat about what wankers ESUS are and rub it in your face.

No one among the Triumvirate that I'm aware of has posted on the forums about how ESUS is inferior to our little alliance and how unworthy they are to share RP space with us. We're not rubbing our elitism in your face. To date, we have only ever mentioned ESUS was when someone (usually an ESUS member) brought it up first, and always OOC. Case in point, this thread.

Relax. You've got a sizeable group of players you like to play with. So go play with 'em. The fact that we're not interested in joining your role-play is irrelevant. Go on without us. We promise not to be offended.

Treznor's Player
Santa Barbara
28-04-2005, 17:55
Okay, I can't resist anymore! Allow me to pontificate and rant along with you all. I'll try to be mercilessly brief and uncharacteristically unegotistical, but no promises.

Since the first roleplay to be held upon the Nationstates forum, some players have banded together in what can only be called gangs. These gangs tend to roleplay amongst themselves much more often than roleplaying with people from other gangs. Some gangs even set up their own private forums in which to play out their nation’s politics. The ESUS is a gang, as are the ToY and the Martian nations. Each is separate and distinct, with differing, long histories. One plays “Galactic Empires” while the others play “System Lord.” Does this give either side the intrinsic right to call each other wankers?

...no. But I think when talking of intrinsic rights around here we're on really thin ground. You are asking if it justifies calling each other wankers, to be part of one gang or the other. Again, no. But! It will still happen.

The Martian nations claim the members of the ESUS are wankers for having Empires that span dozens of systems, and command fleets of thousands including ships multiple kilometres in length. Are they wankers for this? Are they wankers for using the same system of “power determination” as the rest of the gang does? Perhaps in the ESUS gang a kilometre long ship is considered “small.” To a Martian gang member this ship might be classed as “huge,” but, if neither group interacts on a regular basis does it matter?

No. But allow my personal opinion, I pretty much hate the concentration of people into "gangs" on this site. It pretty much ensures what you're saying: lack of interaction. Everyone just plays with their OOC friends. Sad, because one of the great things about diplomacy and politics is that you ARENT just playing with people who agree with you, who like what you like, who know you, who shares a lot in common. And when it's used exclusively, with group-ignores and gang versus gang, it's living in a bubble. It may be fun - so may living in a bubble - but it's missing out on one of the great things that, at least, attracted ME to this site.

Both Arda and the Seraphim Order are there to counter their expansion, and to force the Triumverate to work diplomatically.

Sorry, just had to point this rarity out: acknowledgement of the OotS as a potent rival to the other 'gangs.' Yay! Almost makes me wish I could stuff my nation back into the Order. Alas...


And lasty, people must understand that this is just a game, a fantasy, a figment sprung from Max Barry's imagination. If you feel that this is your life, then I have nothing to say.

What? Heresy! La la la, I'm not hearing anything, la la la la laaaaa!

I think most RPers are like birds with a mirror, they can't help crashing headlong into something they perceive as challenging them.

This also I think deserves repeating, if nothing else than for it's a great simile.

Also, UN rankings are hardly paid attention to by the ESUS - we consider the UN either obsolete or evolved so far from it's present form in our timeline as to be unrecogniseable. Hence, very few ESUS members are UN members.

Yeah, but the UN Rankings are not in-character. I find some players ignore UN rankings when not doing so would mean to acknowledge an unpleasant weakness about their in-character nation. Some others just for purely RPing purposes. But it's the former that I in particular dislike since it's a sign of OOC invulnerability syndrome. (Just as surely as insisting UN rankings make you indefeatable.)

I have yet to be impressed by anything proposed or role-played by ESUS. I therefore assert my right to choose my role-play partners, or not

....

Relax. You've got a sizeable group of players you like to play with. So go play with 'em.

I agreed with your post with the caveat that this kind of thinking is what leads to elitist clusters of non-interacting, dying 'gangs.' The fact is that it's easier not to cooperate than it is to cooperate, and while everyone does have the option of choosing their RPs, it may be only a short step to "if someone doesn't impress me, or if we don't get along perfectly, ignore them" as far as working things out with other players to produce interesting roleplays goes.

Anyway.

I personally would love to see more ESUS and "Etc" interaction. That's a lot of roleplayers and a whole huge lot of potential politics and trade and war and all that.

True, not everyone gets along, but it's pretty damn difficult to find a case where players even within the 'gang' gets along all the time. It's difficult with all the egos floating around... and the wank interferes by creating people who think they are invincible, or people who think an IC loss must mean OOC discomfort (and vice versa, that the point OOC is to win IC).

From what I've found, losing wars is more fun than winning them in this game. I'm not sure why. Dramatic interest perhaps.
imported_Berserker
28-04-2005, 20:10
I agreed with your post with the caveat that this kind of thinking is what leads to elitist clusters of non-interacting, dying 'gangs.' The fact is that it's easier not to cooperate than it is to cooperate, and while everyone does have the option of choosing their RPs, it may be only a short step to "if someone doesn't impress me, or if we don't get along perfectly, ignore them" as far as working things out with other players to produce interesting roleplays goes.

Just because it's a short walk off a cliff, doesn't mean you're wrong for standing there.


Anyway.

I personally would love to see more ESUS and "Etc" interaction. That's a lot of roleplayers and a whole huge lot of potential politics and trade and war and all that.

True, not everyone gets along, but it's pretty damn difficult to find a case where players even within the 'gang' gets along all the time. It's difficult with all the egos floating around... and the wank interferes by creating people who think they are invincible, or people who think an IC loss must mean OOC discomfort (and vice versa, that the point OOC is to win IC).
And it would be lovely to increase the amount of interaction, but there are more factors to this than just "I don't like your face."
Time for instance. Many players (like myself) simply do not have the time, and therefore inclination, to attempt to cooperate with everyone. It then becomes necessary to pick one's partners carefully in order to best acheive one's goals (hopefully a good time).
This is something (most) everyone does.
Would you honestly spend your time roleplaying with someone who's responses consist of "OMG" and "I NOOKZ J00"?
(Before anyone's ego causes them to go into a massive rage of hatred and hurled insults, I'm not talking about anyone in particular.)

RP is something your have to enjoy in order for you to want to do. If a given RP is going to be 3/4 trying to hash things out OOC, and 1/4 actual RP, then chances are it's not worth the time.

Don't get me wrong, I like some good conflict too, but it has a tendancy to spiral out of control here, taking away enjoyment that may have been gained.

Roleplays that really should have been minor incidents, snowball when suddenly everyone and their uncle shows up, each wanting a piece of that action, each sure that they hold the trump card. Wadding through the bs gets frustrating after awhile, and if I'm not enjoying it, then what motivation is there to continue?
Central Facehuggeria
28-04-2005, 21:01
<Marvels at all the physics grads in the world who in fact still cannot design a working or workable FTL system>

You misunderstand what I'm saying. Hack said that he thinks all the major players who use FTL travel 'bend physics over.' My point is that if you have little knowledge of physics, you don't know when you *are* 'bending physics over.'

How is claiming a small area of a single planet's surface in any way similiar to claiming an entire celestial body in a manner that implies you can defend this claim?

I said nothing about defending the claim. But to defend a planet that has no enemy presence, you merely have to keep their ships away (patrol ships, planetary defense batteries, orbital defense stations et cetera.) On the ground it gets a lot harder. You've got to have highly mobile troops, if only to get from their bases to the enemy's landing sites.

It's just a matter of scale, and it presents problems, yet these difficulties are not insurmountable. Well, for modern tech they are, but that's why you don't see modern tech space colonies. :p

Further, how could a body of <5 billion people possibly have the resources available to them to colonise multiple planets, and what would be the point?

Well, if I were doing it, I would take a large (perhaps 900 meters across) asteroid, hollow it out and fill it up with people and engines. In fact, that's how my first colonization ship was built. Nevermind the fact that it later got destroyed. :p

But as for how a body of <five billion people would have the resources to colonize multiple planets? Probably mining resources from a given system's asteroid field and using automated factories to churn out colonial necessities and large transport vessels. FT can construct automated factories and resourcing operations far more easily (and reliably) than a modern or near modern tech nation. You've also got to remember that colonies start small and over the course of many years, they grow through immigration and breeding. At first, a particular planet would probably have one capital city and perhaps a few thosand people and that's it. After a few hundred years of rabid breeding and immigration? You'd have plenty.

Now, for why? Prestige. The recognition and national penis waving that comes from saying 'I've got X colonies' just like what happened to Africa in the late 1800s. Also, it depends on the mindset of the people. Some people may RP their people as liking being cooped up in gigantic mega-metropoli that stretch into the heavens and down underground. Personally, I RP my people as loving a little elbow room, which they wouldn't get in a geographically average sized nation of nearly three billion people.

Another possible reason would be to escape the government for religious or political freedom, or just the simple desire for more economic oppertunity, especially from a nation that has an oppressive government or doesn't have much publically available land. Basically the reasons that people have emmigrated from their country of origin since the beginning of human existance.

That you must say 'we just do' is the wank element.

But that's the problem. I didn't just say 'we just do.' I gave explanations and tried to give logical IC reasons for what is essientially an OOC desire on the part of the expansionee.

You're the one who asked why players are still on earth. I gave my reasons. No need to get pissy because you don't like my answer.

Pissy? That was not my intent. I'm just pointing out that statement about 'FTLusers=anti-physics wankers' isn't a fair one because most people who use FTL only know the very basics of physics.

You may not force your role-play upon me because you feel I ought to. In return, I may not gloat about what wankers ESUS are and rub it in your face.

Personally, that's the entire reason I even posted in this thread. I don't care if the Triumvirate or the Martians or whoever RPs with me. I just can't stand people mistakenly calling my allies and myself wankers because "OMG they've got more than one system!" Or "OMG They've got a ship bigger than 100 meters!111"
Rayverr
29-04-2005, 02:37
You people are still at this? Let it lie already.
Skeelzania
29-04-2005, 02:44
You people are still at this? Let it lie already.

*preens his feathers*
Zepplin Manufacturers
29-04-2005, 03:06
Thread has jumped the shark it has yeeeeesss.


LET IT DIE!

I stand by my previously quoted comment on this nonsense.
Allanea
29-04-2005, 03:08
I agreed with your post with the caveat that this kind of thinking is what leads to elitist clusters of non-interacting, dying 'gangs.' The fact is that it's easier not to cooperate than it is to cooperate, and while everyone does have the option of choosing their RPs, it may be only a short step to "if someone doesn't impress me, or if we don't get along perfectly, ignore them" as far as working things out with other players to produce interesting roleplays goes.

Anyway.

I personally would love to see more ESUS and "Etc" interaction. That's a lot of roleplayers and a whole huge lot of potential politics and trade and war and all that.


I agree Santa. When do we start?
Atlantian Outcasts
29-04-2005, 03:14
You people are still at this? Let it lie already.

^Gotta agree with this person.
Santa Barbara
29-04-2005, 03:19
I agree Santa. When do we start?

That's up to ESUS. And et cetera! As for me I am still RPing the death of my national government (or is it?)

The rest of you, a hint! To let a thread die, don't bump it up by posting on it!
Thelas
29-04-2005, 03:29
Or the creator could ask for a modlock....
Auman
29-04-2005, 04:01
Why doesn't ESUS just come to Sol and let its presence be known. Those who wish to deal with them can and hopefully some good rp will be had.
Allanea
29-04-2005, 04:17
Why doesn't ESUS just come to Sol and let its presence be known. Those who wish to deal with them can and hopefully some good rp will be had.


I think we should take it as an invitation.
Skeelzania
29-04-2005, 05:08
Why doesn't ESUS just come to Sol and let its presence be known. Those who wish to deal with them can and hopefully some good rp will be had.

Unfortunately the whole Mars flop left a bad taste in most of the ESUS' mouth, as confused as it was. Most don't want anything to do with that system now, while a minority would like some peaceful interaction. As far as I know I'm the only one who wants to really do harm to Mars or anyone else in Sol, a wish I'm sure will end up destroying me if it ever came to a RP. Not that I'd be opposed, since I managed to declare Vendetta on some of the best RPers on here.
The Most Glorious Hack
29-04-2005, 05:10
Pissy? That was not my intent. I'm just pointing out that statement about 'FTLusers=anti-physics wankers' isn't a fair one because most people who use FTL only know the very basics of physics.You missed the point. Again.
The Mindset
29-04-2005, 09:59
We're the Extra-Solar Union of Systems, Allanea. We have no collective interest in Sol. And yes, lock this.