NationStates Jolt Archive

Since the other thread was getting cluttered.

OOC: To SS: 1,691 ships? Can anyone say Godmode? The US Navy has 449 ships, that's ALL ships, not just warships. My Navy has 750 Warships and I've been accused of Godmodeing that.

You also need to realize that the United States only has around 300 million people. SS, on the other hand, has many times that.


Now, as for tech restrictions....

1. You are the attacker. Edolia is the defender. By default, this means that Edolia makes the rules, including tech level. When he invited both myself and NHSR, he made this FT. Therefore, you are shit out of luck.

2. You entered the FT world when you decided to almost attack Sirithil, who is also quite well known for being FT.

3. You're simply making an ass of yourself.

Now, as the PNS Luna is well within the engagement zone, is it safe to assume that you were stupid enough to attack it, as you did with NHSR's fighters?

And please, let's not forget something else.

1) 448 of those ships are dedicated logistics ships. The only armaments they have are defensive in nature.
2) I also have 240 assault ships of various classes.
3) That means that 1/3 of all my ships are dedicated logistics ships, which is a better ratio than the USN
4) Also, I don't bother with things like oceanography ships, while the USN has several. Anything that doesn't directly help the Imperial Navy fight and win battles isn't used, I let the civvies do their own thing on their own dime.

<<OOC: Actually, Bryn, when I invited you (technically you invited yourself and I gave you permission [and I have no problem with your participation and in fact welcome it]) I told you that he would get the option to choose to ignore or not to ignore future tech. That's besides the point, as I would prefer that this be resolved diplomatically.

In regards to Wendori's plea for help, it did not ask for Vaadian forces to be deployed on the mainland. I admit, it was ambiguous, but Turosi is a petty dictator. He's allowed to be ambiguous. I've been trying to drop subtle (or not-so-subtle) hints here that you can't take anyone's diplomatic messages completely at face value. There are different competing factions that all want you to buy their version of reality. Don't get mad at me because certain characters messed with your characters' minds.

IC post either tonight or tomorrow, hopefully tonight.>>

But that's the problem. He doesn't have the option. He gave that up dealing with Menelmacar. What Vaad is trying to do is like if when Allanea tried to land on Mars and defend his claim, he lost both his colony and space fleet, and then tried to get out of the ODW by claiming that he was near future and ignored the attacking ships.

One does not simply play with FT nations one week and try to ignore them the next.

Since the other thread was getting cluttered.



You also need to realize that the United States only has around 300 million people. SS, on the other hand, has many times that.


Now, as for tech restrictions....

1. You are the attacker. Edolia is the defender. By default, this means that Edolia makes the rules, including tech level. When he invited both myself and NHSR, he made this FT. Therefore, you are shit out of luck.

2. You entered the FT world when you decided to almost attack Sirithil, who is also quite well known for being FT.

3. You're simply making an ass of yourself.

Now, as the PNS Luna is well within the engagement zone, is it safe to assume that you were stupid enough to attack it, as you did with NHSR's fighters?


Uhm, I enter the FT world WHEN I WANT TO. Neither you nor anyone else can tell me what tech level I roleplay. At no time during my RP with Menelmacar did I ever deploy anything other than conventional modern tech forces.

FT attacks against the Free Republic will be ignored. I can RP with whomever I want, whenever I want. If you have a problem with freeform RP then you have no business playing NS in the first place you asshole.

I also still need to know if the Yasmareans are attacking my forces, and it looks like Island states is also attacking me. It'd be nice if someone told me these things.

As usual (as in ALL of you) start doing things, making assumptions and then bitching at me when I try to sort it out. Either decide exactly WHAT you are doing, POST it and let me react. I'm not going to assume when your forces arrive and I'm not going to assume when or how they attack. If you want me to start assuming, I'm going to assume your pathetic forces sunk themselves before they even get in sight of the Vaadians.

So please, show some common courtesy, and some basic RP skills and quit bitching about every little thing OOC. If you can't string together coherent lucid posts, then please, go fuck yourselves, I'm sick of all the nations in Haven having an absolute inability to even remember their OWN posts, much less being unable to comprehend others posts.

To recap: I will ignore FT technology. I will NOT assume what you are up to, if you don't post it, it's not happening. Read posts fully before responding and please try and remenber what you posted before- This means you Edolia, you've gone from saying the Yasmareans wanted help, to saying that they never asked for help and now that they're just mesing with the minds of Ilek-Vaad's government-that's bullshit and you know it.

I'm far too pissed off at this point, I'm not going to answer OOC posts that don't directly deal with the thread and I'm not going to restate my position AGAIN and AGAIN as I have to keep doing because of your limited intellects and poor grasp of the English language. So , either put up or shut up you pack of whiney ass bitches.

P.S. you brain dead idiots, I will say this for THIRD FUCKING TIME-Vaadian forces attacked ANYONE that entered the five hundred mile exclusion zone, with the exception of Edolian forces. YOU fucking idiots are the ones that never even posted where you were in relation to this zone. READ THE POSTS.

Uhm, I enter the FT world WHEN I WANT TO. Neither you nor anyone else can tell me what tech level I roleplay. At no time during my RP with Menelmacar did I ever deploy anything other than conventional modern tech forces.

And this is why you are a fool. Upon deploying any forces against Menelmacar, you have waived your right to ignore FT, as MENELMACAR IS A FUCKING FT SUPERPOWER.

I'm going to ignore the profanity and flaming and not report you to the moderators because I still hold with the idea that you are a pretty good roleplayer and because I'm guessing that something is happening in your life outside this game that is causing you to over react so badly. Here's my response, though.

First of all, what you perceive to be changing positions in the Yasmarean government are based on your assumptions of what Turosi wants. It should be pretty obvious to anyone that his government is not the most stable in the world. This roleplay has mainly been about shifting political winds, and I have intentionally sprung weird changes on you. I'm sorry if you don't like that, but you should know by now that IC statements can be misleading, ambiguous or just downright false. If I wanted you to know exactly what Turosi wanted, I would have either had him say what he wanted in a private conversation with a close confidant or I would have made an OOC comment on his goals. I did neither, and perhaps you should realize that that was intentional. I'm sorry that you feel that you deployed your fleets for nothing, but hey -sometimes that sort of thing happens in the real world. First, Turosi's statements called for you to directly support his rule with troops based in Yasmarea. That was because he wanted protection from Edolia. When it became clear that Edolia wasn't going to launch an all-out military attack and that you weren't going to let Turosi get away with being a dictator, their request changed to asking for support in a more ambiguous way. My intent was for it to be defenses in the form of diplomatic support against a possible continuation of hostilities by NHSR. You can choose to interpret their asking for support however you like, and act on it, but you might not interpret it correctly. Again, that sort of thing happens in the real world and has obviously happened here and when NHSR pulled out their forces, Turosi's request was no longer relevant.

In regards to the fleets... I'm not a big fan of the war RP. I think that they're boring, repetative and generally not to my liking, although I'm willing to do them in order to advance a plot. Therefore, I don't give an up-to-the-minute report of exactly where my fleet is. I also have a lot of different elements to deal with in this thread, and limited time -I am a full-time student after all. I have enough to manage between posts on the military coup, responses to NHSR's attacks, protests, arguments with Tiburon and half a dozen other smaller plots. I don't want to waste my time talking about exactly where my fleets are relative to you. I said that they were blocading Yasmarea. I didn't think that this would become a war, and didn't spend the time to give their exact coordinates. This is why I said that if this became a shooting war that we should hold OOC negotiations to determine the situation.

Finally, I think that you're being horribly unflexible and needlessly belligerant. I have done nothing that warrants your hostility, and in general have been as accomodating towards you as possible. Bryn Shander is right. As the defender, I have the right to say what kind of tech is allowed in the RP. I have, however, given you the right to make that choice, since you're the underdog in this war. I think that you should at least extend the courtesy to me of not insulting my intelligence. It just makes you look like a jerk.

And now I've spent the time that I was going to spend on a long diplomatic post to OOC explaining. Looks like I'll be responding tomorrow.

Well, shit, this is going to be a first for me. Fuck it, I refuse to interact with IV anymore, there's no other way to save me from seriously blowing a fuse and doing or saying something I'd regret.

And this is why you are a fool. Upon deploying any forces against Menelmacar, you have waived your right to ignore FT, as MENELMACAR IS A FUCKING FT SUPERPOWER.I know, I know, I'm not invited, nor a participant, and generally an unwanted pain in the ass, but I still want to note that telling other people who give a damn about balance to fuck off is a 'right' that cannot be revoked. You can do it for any reason, at any time, to anyone. You might not look good with it, but since the other side is lacking the means to enforce an unignore (Simply because there are no such means), it's a rather simple fact.

'Sides, Edolia has now told you two times that he gave Ilek Vaad the option to tell you to fuck off (Or, alternatively, to keep space out and go with your surface resources only. Kinda what, say, I would do, since ortillery vs. non- spacedy's would bore me to death). So you really aren't in a position to complain.

And while I'm not exactly impressed by Ilek Vaad's common belligerent attitude, the one he showed with regards to, say, Knootoss (Butting into a pre- planned thread without caring about the options of the main participants), in this particular case, he's perfectly right.

Finally I would note that even if you were right... I am still recalling your '6000 spaceships with a struggling economy & the industrial resources of 2.8bn people, but it is better than that because there are no environmental regulations in space!' claim from a while ago. And, well... I cannot see many people agreeing to something like that...

Perhaps some planning and a predetermined outcome to end the bitching would be in order?

A month later

Wow. I actually *do* have to post here, after all. First of all, and I do tend to disagree with Der Angst, here, on many issues, but he’s perfectly right on both points – Illek-Vaad has the right to ignore whatever he wants to ignore, and Bryn Shander is not the person to be criticizing him about it. On the other hand, IV, everybody else has the right to fire off the I.G.N.O.R.E.-47’s, and I suspect some are tempted. I suggest you reach some solution or something, because otherwise y’all will kill off the RP. Which will be a pity.

:fluffle:

sigh ...

Edolia has shown a great deal of restraint with all of us, I admit that my own actions in attacking by over analysis the nature of Vaads automatic 500 mile deployment was clearly flawed and though not derogatory or insulting still hostile a hostile OC action sparked by what I probably mistakenly took as his rocket engine teaching jibe.

However Vaads reaction was hostile and insulting to a level wholly unequal to this with a threat of ignore thrown in via TG.

I find that sort of behaviour abhorrent almost as abhorrent as my IC nation would find Vaads actions in firing first upon the NHSR. I find this ample cause for my bomber strike, airpower which was deployed originally to assist in enforcing the concordats declaration.

In the end this seems like much of an unholy OC hostile mess. I thought it had a chance of being a limited air and naval engagement ... I was obviously wrong.

I await Edolias ..response to all of this mayhem and I wish to express my displeasure at Vaad for starting the IC mudslinging... though the response of those he attacked was not much better.

I mean honestly next thing you know we will be on your momma jokes.


Below this point moved due to crowding in the main thread.

[OOC


As granted to me by treaty with NHSR I have one city within Haven upon Baltic Island.
My interests within the area are through national ties I have with Midlonia, the NHSR and Bryn Shander and the Concordat of which we are all members.


… I was not making a comparison merely stating that even with modern technology even air launched cruise missiles namely the Block IV Tomahawk only ranges 1000 miles and is subsonic. In order for an air launched cruise missile never mind a super sonic missile you would require a missile well in excess of the size of a Block IV Tomahawk. Mounted on a bomber, now you can have a very big bomber, nothing stopping you doing that at all. The problem comes ..just after this.

Now I have stated it is far from impossible to build a cruise missile with a 3000 mile range however your stated range of 3000 miles for supersonic flight requires a missile at least the size of a circa 1970 SLBM ..given that most circa 1970 SLBM’ s are one of the few missiles I can find that has roughly a range of 3000 kilometres and a decent payload capacity. I thought you would use a supersonic missile as the transit time for a bomber launched sub sonic cruise missile barrage would give the enemy far too much time to prepare to engage and indeed time to engage such weapons with ABM weaponry.

This is not a matter of rocket engine efficiency with more efficient motors increasing range exponentially as they simply do not do so. This is a game of how much fuel that missile will need to generate thrust. That little equation can be tweaked a bit by more efficient engines ..but even given say the 15 years plus your nation has over present technological growth it cannot be tweaked enough given that you are relying on I presume here chemical boosters given the tech level limit you ask which I do hope react oxygen in some form to generate thrust within lets say a solid booster medium given the fact that ..well I just don’t see you using liquid or cryogenic liquid based missiles on bombers.

The problem here is that this is already a stable technology with physical limits upon their size and ability. Though it is true an air launch would reduce the need for a “booster phase” and you are hopefully using non ballistic attacks given the danger that could incur I still estimate very roughly that your missile would at the very least be equivalent to a 1970 SLBM in size and thrust production to achieve a 3000 kilometre supersonic flight. Unless of course ..you have a wonder fuel. Even if you did have the perfect solid chemical booster with an equivalent to say even the efficiency of an Ariane 5’s LOX Hydrogen cryogenic engine in thrust generation (and that on a bomber mount ..I just never see as being a good thing) it would still end up ..being quite large.

In conclusion I believe that you could indeed build a bomber launched sub sonic cruise missile with a 3000km range and would be able to carry and fire four from a reasonable sized bomber aircraft. However I also state that to do the same with super sonic weaponry would require a very large bomber indeed , and some very large missiles, missiles similar in size to an SLBM ..though of course without the water launch “bulbous” nose cone of such missiles. I would strongly suggest winglets for increased lift upon such a missile if you do follow the appropriate non ballistic route for such a weapon. However even with winglets, or even a lift body style missile for one bomber to carry four such super sonic weapons would require a bomber to carry well over 50 tons! That rough estimate is given even with me being very very generous to take into account future missile design and a great deal of fuel efficiency. Now if you take a sub sonic cruise style weapon of the same range you require something bigger than the (only in 2002 tested ) Block IV Tomahawk which weighs 1.5 tons and take into account advanced design and incredible fuel efficiency I would still estimate each missile to weigh over 4 tons! To put that in a frame for you the total the total cargo Capacity for a 747 400 Mega Ark is 58.4 tons. Your sub orbital bombers within your stated tech limit would need to be huge to have a 16 ton capacity much less the insane necessary capacity for four super sonic missiles with a 3000 kilometre range which I put at about 50 to 60 tons. And by insane I do really mean whip you in the face and scream mushroom at inappropriate moments insane given that a sub orbital bomber on such a scale would be in excess of two or three times the size of a 747.

Arms require of course even more weight in support equipment, not only that but a bomber simply will not have the same efficiency of size as a cargo aircraft much less a sub orbital bomber as it will be given over to systems space. Yes you could deploy and use subsonic cruise weapons with a 3000 kilometre range. No you cannot easily deploy super sonic missiles with a range over that without making the bomber too big to handle and infact why should it even be a bomber at those ranges where a purpose built airborne launch platform would be more effective, given that you are well behind your conventional air defences.

All of this relies on you not of course simply using the sub orbital bombers to lob the weapon on a ballistic arc. That however once again would neatly fit inside the arena of ballistic attack ..and again ..were at Mr. Megadeaths door.
Im not even going to touch trying to keep sub orbital bombers at ninety thousand feet and how much fuel that would burn.

Please do try and explain rocket engines to me…

Ehem yes well avoiding the unpleasantness of a flame war over rocket engines given Edolias request I would state again that I do have vested interests within Haven and a very real IC reason for combat in my membership of the Concordat and my ties to the NHSR.


Post script ..um I’m not even going to touch the basic silliness of vertical torpedo tubes however that "low signature" sub comment you made I feel must be answered. Modern active sonar will pick up a sub on the sea bed no matter its shape and even if it is incredibly stealthy on active ping your a sitting duck sitting on the sea bed and as there is no way to avoid being picked up ...either by your presence ..or the lack of it this stratagem and a sub built to fulfil it is flawed. Its like putting a lump of coal on a white silk sheet.

OOC: Actually my personal life is going very well, I just got fed up with SS , Bryn Shander and Zeppelin Manufacturers jerking eack other off at my expense, but thank you for your concern Edolia.

Edolia: I am not upset by Turosi and Wendori yanking Ilek-Vaad's cahin, they can do that (and apprently very well) what I do have a problem with is that I have now asked three times for you to clarify if Yasmarean security forces were attacking my forces, you hinted that they were and it confused me and I asked for calrification. You said you would clarify it. You have not. All I was asking is that if you have decided that the Yasmreans are attacking me to simply post who they are attacking and where so that I can react to it, especially since you decided that some of troops had arrived and that some have not, I still don't know who (if anybody) you have excepted as landing much less where they are being attacked?

Bryn: If I want to right now I can at this very moment say that I am RPing Ilek-Vaad as three cavemen and a wise-cracking smilodon sidekick named 'Chad'. That's free-form roleplay. It is FREE-FORM

From dictionary.com- free-form- 1. Having or characterized by a usually flowing asymmetrical shape or outline: freeform sculpture.
2. Characterized by an unconventional or variable form: their own freeform teaching methods

Variable, the devil they say!

Rest assured that Ilek-Vaad will one day be modern tech. In the two years of playing I have steadily advanced the technology of my nation, RPing and cataloging each advancement along the way and that is how it will stay.

Keep in mind that by your reasoning Menelmacar MUST now RP as Modern Tech since she interacted with me! Why doesen't it work that way? I am a recognized Modern Tech superpower, RPing with me means that FT nations that do so give up their right to be FT and MUST now be modern tech.

Do you see how stupid that sounds? I would call you a fool in return, but I don't want to insult any fools present.Myself included.

SS: So, when I said 'put up or shut up' you decided on the 'shut up' route. That gives me no end of pleasure, I've always said that you are a big baby and that if you can't have an RP EXACTLY the way you want , 100% in your favor , that you'd simply quit. Glad to finally have my point proven.

Der Angst: Even though you agree with me on the roleplaying FT vs. MT point, I still don't like you. No reason for it, just, meh.

ZM: I didn't fire on Island States first............I don't know what he's doing , he still hasn't posted anything but that 'bombing run' I stated twice quite clearly that I would attack anyone that entered the five hundred mile exclusion zone. Island States STILL has not said if he has entered it, and I'm not assume that he has. Read above-if you don't post it, it doesen't happen. So if his bombing raid is his post then he is CLEARLY attacking me first.

buzzing=/=bombing He said his aircraft were manoeuvring to show those big orange coloured missiles to your ships. This would stongly suggest visual range.

OOC: I don't RP 'suggestions' and 'assumptions'. When I start RPing based on what I assume someone meant, then I'm just RPing with myself. Once again if he's entered the exclusion zone ,he's initiated hostilities. Not to mention he attacked Yasmarea in the first place and his men rigged buildings and themselves to explode.

Bryn: If I want to right now I can at this very moment say that I am RPing Ilek-Vaad as three cavemen and a wise-cracking smilodon sidekick named 'Chad'. That's free-form roleplay. It is FREE-FORM

Free form suggests and "anything goes" policy, yet you base yourself on realism and "ingnore" everything else, not very free is it?

Also, threatening my homeland with invasion when you have no projectional forces in the area is a little silly, the Klatch Guard units are ground based, and the problems with that have been outlined in my posts, don't forget that an invasion takes alot of time and planning, you can't throw in some people into boats and expect them to conquer a country without support and planning.

OOC: I don't RP 'suggestions' and 'assumptions'. When I start RPing based on what I assume someone meant, then I'm just RPing with myself. Once again if he's entered the exclusion zone ,he's initiated hostilities. Not to mention he attacked Yasmarea in the first place and his men rigged buildings and themselves to explode.

Wouldn't the 500 mile radius catch Yasamera, and other USR states anyway?
you're attacking an awful lot with so little.

Entering an exclusion zone and actually opening fire first are two very different actions. Yes he was acting in a hostile manner and it was a highly hostile act but no more so than the manoeuvrings of the various other forces arrayed against you, the fact remains he had not actually opened fire, he was warning you. If you automatically engage anything seen to be belonging to a hostile force within 500 miles you will most certainly be the aggressor and the party blamed for the start of the true conflagration.

I find the "suggestion" beyond probable doubt given that even big orange missiles won't become more visible 500 miles away to a surface ship.

OOC: okay, at Zeppelin Manufacturers insistance I have responded to Island States post. HOWEVER since he never posted that he entered my exclusion zone I am posting that I RETURNED FIRE. The NHSR is the clear aggressor.

Midlonia: free-form doesen't mean 'anything goes' it clearly means that RP is highly variable. EVERYONE in NS has at one point or another RPed with other nations of different tech levels and even on different 'alternate' earths. This does not mean that simply RPing with someone that you now HAVE to abide by their tech level and their .

Bryn Shander is saying that simply because I RP'ed with Menelmacar that I am now by default a future tech nation and that I HAVE to RP as and with future tech nations.

My point is, I don't have to RP with anyone and I am the only person who decides what my tech level is and who I do or don't RP with.

Also with my forces deployed the five hundred mile exclusion zone would cover most of the Yasmarean coast and five hundred miles out. This zone is easy to protect as a good number of missles and armaments in my fleet have up to a one thousand mile range (depending on ship and ordinance.). You should also be aware that as in the Klatch Guard Founded Thread and the Neo-Tyr threads, Ilek-Vaad has both Naval and air assets in the Klatch.

The Free Republic does not make idle threats.

you have no business playing NS in the first place you asshole.

If you can't string together coherent lucid posts, then please, go fuck yourselves,

either put up or shut up you pack of whiney ass bitches.

P.S. you brain dead idiots,

YOU fucking idiots are the ones that never even posted Ilek-Vaad, if you can't control your temper better than this, get up and walk away from the computer. You're way over the line in this response. This level of flaming will not be tolerated, regardless of the provocation. I'll check later to see if you have other warnings against your nation, and reserve final judgement until that point. For now, learn some restraint.
You're simply making an ass of yourself.

And this is why you are a fool.
Bryn Shander, it's been my experience that those who report flaming are often not blameless themselves. If you can't control your responses, you need to step away from the computer too.

No formal warnings have been issued at this point. If you can continue this thread without further flaming (as seems to be the case), I won't lock it. Now all of you, CALM DOWN. Got it?

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Mod

None to make a signifcant impact, a good 8 out of my 10 wet fleets are at home, even if you did land, you would be facing my large armour, which is near future and I'm not gunna get onto those.

We shall continue to treat it as such an Idle threat, The Greater Kingdom does not take you seriously in your proposed venture to our homeland.

Frisbeeteria: My intention was to be as over the line as possible. After months of being cursed out and piled on by Scandavian States and his buddies, I wanted to deal with the in a manner that they understand.

I have yet to read a post from Bryn Shander and Scandavian States that does not include a direct insult against me. But then again I have a thick skin and don't care, so no worries.

I also doubt very seriously that I will make a post like the previous one, it never has happened before and this was a special case.

With Scandavian States now ignoring me and Bryn Shander certain to follow suit, I should have no further issues NS, the inflammatory post was mainly directed at them and appears to have worked admirably in shutting them up.

I've never had a Mod take an interest in my posts, and I appreciate the job the Mods do, I know I'd never want to do it.I apologise to the NS community at large for my obviously inflammatory and inapropriate post and hopefully I will never have to make such a post again.

Frisbeeteria: My intention was to be as over the line as possible.
Then my intention is to treat this as intentional flaming, and warned appropriately. Your reasonings and purported apology do not excuse this behavior, especially as you admitted premeditation in the same post.

Ilek-Vaad, this is your Official Warning for intentional flaming. This is your one and only such warning. The next will result in forumban, deletion, or whatever the relevant moderator considers appropriate.

~ Frisbeeteria ~
NationStates Forum Moderator

Thank you for the warning.

IV: I didn't clarify whether Yasmarean forces were attacking you because, as I said, we both have different ideas of exactly what is happening, and I wanted to resolve those issues before we actually started fighting. I also said that I wanted to spend the next few points diplomatically, mainly since I OOC don't really want to fight a big war. Ergo, that's what I've been concentrating on. If you really insist on me clarifying exactly what the situation is...

Yasmarean forces are attacking all Vaadian troops landing on their territory. A truce was signed between Edolia and Yasmarea and they are currently negotiating Turosi's handing the reins over to the Edolian government, and Vaad's unwelcome unilateral attack isn't exactly conducive to stable negotiation. However, I also see Edolian naval forces as being about twenty kilometers East of the Vaadian fleet. You view that differently, which is a main problem that we're having and one that has to be worked out. There have been some misunderstandings on both sides about exactly what our fleets are doing, and if we're going to start shooting at each other, we'll have to decide what the reality is.

Ok... I made a somewhat crappy diplomatic post on the main thread.

Um I want to make it clear that my bomber launched cruise missile strikes come about an hour or so after Vaad engages the NHSR air units. On another note I have actually found a soviet prototype ALCM with a 3000 km range ..a black jack bomber could carry exactly one of them, and nothing else.

Anyway.. aye that air launched cruise missile strike on the Vaadian naval units still goes ahead if the Vaadian forces have indeed fired upon the NHSRs jets.

OOC: okay responded too. I can see you still haven't read the whole thread? Your strike force will be moving right near the 6 reinforcement Tactical groups that left from Coventry (the eastern most city in Ilek-Vaad) and keep in mind as you look at the map that I have overflight rights in Kelanis and that gives my Air Guard a direct route to intercept your planes as they move in.

To get within strike range your planes will roughly be 600 KM south of the NHSR and well within range of both Coventry and the additional Tactical Groups that I posted as deploying well over a week ago.

...
The nearest point in the entire of your nation is roughly 9000km to 8000km away from my straight line flight route. That would require your home air guard to be capable of in large numbers a round trip of 18,000 kilometres and to have already mustered in full at that single point. The distance is easily covered with say two mid air refuels to most of what I take an "air guard" force to be usually made up of though of course it is entirely up to you what this air guard forces aircraft are. However the distance still means I would be landing back on Baltic Island in the Outzone within the NHSR before you even made it to my cruise missile launch point, much less conventional air to air interception point even if you do overfly Kerlanis. Not only that but you will be within strike range of the vast majority of the NHSRs air bases for the entire period if you attempt a shortest possible interception route.

Baltic Island is a touch over 3000km away from Yasmerea, and I intend on engaging your fleet from 700km away roughly somewhere over international waters near Yoboland. My aircraft have to make a round trip of 4600 kilometres or less to engage your fleet, with that I’m using one mid air refuel for my Type 44 Fighter Bombers at 1600 Kilometres from Baltic Island. That air refuelling group will be covered in all probability by the carrier task force that guards Outzone city. Any attempt to actually attack Outzone city or the carrier task force will have to penetrate the NHSR and my own air defences

I have prepared a diagram to simply illustrate this, I feel it a properly condescending response to your hostility of which I would ask you to control. I will not take part in petty flameing, and your attempts to “diss” me by repeatedly referring to me not reading the thread in full do not excuse the fact that you have committed a far worse actions in this matter and have indeed gained an official warning for it. I would hope that OOC hostility will stay out of this matter in future. The words “two can play at that game” spring to mind, however as stated I just won’t play.

Upon the matter of your tactical reinforcements if we look at the rough path they would take from your nation to the general ocean area of the coast of Yasmerea I see no reason for your six more reinforcements to be anywhere near my flight path. To the matter of those of which you deployed far earlier surely by now they are already supporting your main fleet and on station.

I will be engaging you with Sky Slam cruise missiles which are for all intents and purposes just another air launched ground skimming cruise missile with a 800 kilometre range and a 350 pound warhead. The Sea Slam Torpedo delivery missiles is something different, a basic cruise jet body carrying a single torpedo with a small but effective 130 pound warhead in the first mark and a 180 pound war head in the second. The Sea Slam concept has one simple flaw namely you have a window of interception opportunity when they cruise jet carrier body slows down using a ribbon chute to about 280 kilometres per hour just prior to weapons release 15 to 20 kilometres from target mattering on the mark of missile.

None of the cruise weapons would go higher than about 580 miles per hour, they are all sub sonic, this of course allows your PD system ample time to engage them, however given the numbers and the unconventional nature of the Sea Slams, I would expect some to make it through to target. The purpose of this strike is to cause sporadic medium to heavy damage to your fleet.

Each Type 800 bomber carriers either four Sky slams or just two Sea slams. A Sky Slam weighs in at 1.2 tons, the Sea Slam 3 tons. Given that I have 700 of such aircraft in the strike making up the vast majority of my conventional bomber command that’s say about 2000 sky slams and 400 seal slams.

As much as Raytheon are very good at what they do I trust the press releases of any arms company about as far as I can throw a cow, and while indeed I expect only a very low percentage of my Sky Slams to make it through upon the order of 10 to 20% due to their sub sonic nature I doubt that 80% in combat interception of super sonic weapons.

The type 44 fighter bombers are each carrying two quite conventional heavy super sonic ship killer missiles with a range of 230 kilometres. I have no intention of using them in this strike.

In the unlikely event I were to come across one of your "tactical forces" the Type 44 fighter bombers would be sent to deal with it with an escort of air combat drones, while the Type 55s and Type 800's and the majority of air combat drones would continue to launch point. They are only along for such a purpose.

My next move in all probability will be the defensive deployment of my advanced WIG forces who make up the vanguard of my main battle fleet. Though unfortunately weather limited this force should serve to bolster my air defence and sub hunting capacity until my main battle fleet arrives, with the possibility of harrying pack based attacks on your fleets out riders.

The main battle fleet will join with Midlonias when it arrives and form a fighting force which on its own should be quite capable of dealing with your presence. However of course it is not on its own and you will have been under near constant attack for a week by other large forces unless you do something radical. This is all OOC information for RP planning purposes, though of course basic satellite recon could spot our fleets actions once they have deployed in the case of your IC response. Which as stated will be in about a week relative game time.

My main battle fleet which will consist of 8 carrier task forces each made up of 58 vessels and the one force on guard station, my Star Slam launch unit and its escort will be accompanying them, though I doubt the Star Slams ability to penetrate your SDI, with my Citadel ships and their escort carrying my Landcrawler Corp and ground forces arriving about three days later.


The condescending diagram of Haven.
http://img222.exs.cx/img222/8672/strikedistance1mu.jpg


Post Script

I do hope that is an end to your OOC hostility.

OOC: That's Baltic Island? On earlier maps it was in the North Haven Straits? Uhm, what hostility? If stating facts is hostlity, then no I won't stop being hostile?

More on Raytheon's systems here, as stated it is designed to engage ASM's and the RAM missles themselves are supersonic.

http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/micro_stories.pl?ACCT=910473&TICK=RTNB12&STORY=/www/story/08-04-2004/0002225008&EDATE=Aug+4,+2004

http://www.raytheon.com/feature/static/node4126.html

And I was mistaken, in most recent tests out of 150 firings the Raytheon RAM had a success rate of 95% ...........hoo-rah!

With the actual position Baltic Island now known, you are indeed correct. Your jets will be facing only the three thousand six hundred Orions in the Yasmarean task force and the Death's Head bombers, which at mach six will still be able to be in range in time to hit your forces as they hit your strike point, which is East from where I had expected.

Once again my apologies, on eralier maps Baltic Island was North of the NHSR (or what I thought was baltic island?) SOMEONE should lable it (shoves Edolia.)

I will Edit my post accordingly, give me five minutes.

OOC: Okay the post is edited. No Coventry Air Guard, no fighters from Admiral Ilek's fleet.

AND Looking at an old map it was Atlantic Island that I was picturing when you said Baltic Island, so I don't think Edolia made a boo-boo either, my bad.

Just a note, TIS, you aren't going to get a missile to go Mach 8 a sea level. About the fastest you can hope for using conventional means is about Mach 5 and even then you won't be accomplishing much in the way of lateral movement or complex terminal course changes.

On the note of that attack here is a link to my Type 800, be assured that it will be toned down severely given the FT nature of the specs, especially the payload, maximum speed and ABL output. Yes I said ABL. Is that 700 ABL platforms your up against? Oh indeed it is. However while I will tone it down severely it is still hypersonic still uses its rather unique jets, and would still retain its global reach. It also is possibly the single most deadly object in my entire arsenal that could possibly be accepted within your technological limitations. Now what your facing is the pride and vast majority of my bomber command, my Type 800 strike force.

I dislike scram jets for large numbers of reasons not least their inability to manoeuvre and flame outs however these are designed for "sprint" use with the option of the LOX rocket burn mode for severe situations ..you just gotta have one SCRAM jet if you’ve gone even slightly post MT and even in a near FT situation Ive always thought that large ground based ABM installations would give Sub Orbital bombers serious issues. Though I am no one to talk given my somewhat unsportsmanly use of my satellite guided Starbolts against NY&NJ in the Zvarinograd schism incident against Gregs carrier.

I doubt I will get to use my favourite toy in this little outing however given your SDI capacity and the unfortunate habit of people to class the Star Bolts as WMDs.

One thing I would have issue with is the lag in satellite guidance, while of course they are fine for ground bombardment, I find the possibility of AA satellite guidance doubtful ..given the speed of light and the fact your satellites are infact I do hope in low earth orbit. That’s a 1 to 3 second lag for yon satellite modem from a LEO sat and that is really just not near good enough for Air to Air terminal guidance, of course you can switch to the missiles fire and forget internal guidance at the terminal stage, but then why bother with the expensive satellites at all when you can just point them in the general co-ordinates and let rip as it were?

If you have issue with the Type 800 be aware that Freethinker purchased no less than 180 of these beasts from me. Be also aware that due to the Concordats carefully worded declaration those Deaths Head bombers just became valid targets. Now you have to ask yourself ..would I use single use orbital chemical lasers mounted on wee "cold" sats on them?

Why yes ..yes I will. However only after a fair few hundred of my type 44s and 55s fall out of the air. We are however not counting the air combat drone swarm units. As for the paired firing that’s standard military practice in many modern missile weapons suites. I don't exactly feel the need to fear it as a kill all when Im quite sure I can reply in kind. I would probably put as a reasonable FT to post MT toned down a 340 km engagement range for my very heavy AA missiles carried on the Type 55s and air combat drones, with say a mix of 130 and 170 km range conventional heavy AA missiles on the 44s.

Short to medium range hyper velocity reaaly hard to evade stuff with similar effect to the Shorts "Streak" missiles I would put in at oh a 60 Km range and carried by all the aircraft in lieu of side winders or the like.

Now because you have complained about a lack of hard facts about my military capacity and because I want to show of the Type 800 because "its my shiny military love child".

Type 800 (warning as stated specs are for the FT version)

http://www.deviantart.com/view/14458601/


From the newest aircraft in my arsenal to the oldest, the venerable Type 44. This things from the 70s and was originally of all things designed to be dropped from zeppelins, well got to pay homage to the name somehow. It can just about stagger to mach 2.5 or 3 varying on the version and my force was staying at mach 2 just for the Type 44 squadrons. The image itself is also old and hence not up to standard. It basically falls into the role of an F14 though probably with a lower payload and less dog fighting ability but just as many variants.

http://www.deviantart.com/view/9052164/


The Vanila Stratorunner (as yet lacking serious specs, just think of it as an A440 "plus" with a rocket in its tail). Its big, it wallows at sub sonic speeds and could probably carry enough counter measures to set a small town on fire. These will be what the carrier task forces aircraft are guarding as they are my tanker aircraft. As with all tanker aircraft one reasonable hit and KERBOOM! I’m afraid theres nothing to be done there, on another note there probably within range of my ground launched very very heavy supersonic AA missiles not mentioning the fact that they will infact be over one of my carrier groups and still quite near the cost of the NHSR and capable of "running" to it if necessary because I see no reason to have them loiter when if I’m pushed I can have the Type 44s land in Freethinker, and while they may be interned but I doubt it given my good relations with him at worst their pilots will be alive and the aircraft impounded, at best I could fly them back to the Outzone the next day after paying freethinker for gas.

The Stratorunner, I don't see the tanker variant looking much different.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/15793295/



As for the loiter point, my naval group will be on it and can we say naval anti air MASER time? A device which I co-developed with Knoot. Ship launched ultra long range AA missiles? I think we can. Hell lets just detail the naval group why don't we as my surface navy is post MT.

A single squadron of six of these babies. My Dreadnoughts. Note the big VLS cell.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14664326/

Two squadrons of five of these, my Market Crash BBs. Note the large Raptor MASER dome and VLS cell.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14872116/

One big Carrier. Note the ABMs, note the shear size of the thing. Generally I’m quite proud of this thing. Battle fleet has 8 more of these babies. I think I may just draw your eye to this little gem of detail
"22 ICBM/A-SAT/Recon Sat launch Tubes (bank located between funnels)".

At roughly two and half the size of a Nimitz she would have far more volume. The number of naval variant Type 55s she would carry I put in at about 400.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14932952/

The Open Market Niche class, my destroyer, a blatent rip on the Sea Ghost design but I think its still sweet. 20 of them.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14961686/

A single 5 strong Wolf Pack of my "Ray" SSN Hunter killer subs, no you are not the only one who watched sting ray however note those are vertical missile tubes. Not even ICBM tubes but missile tubes. The concept of an anti air role for a sub appealed to me. Hunt the hunter and all that.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14843475/

A duo of Sea Reaver SSBNs. Big, and a blatent partial Red October rip, save for the fact that typhoons are ugly, very ugly.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14776877/


Now where was I? ah yes my air forces.

The Type 55 (as yet lacking serious specs, in this post MT case it will appear as a super sonic very long range strike fighter rather than my original undiluted space wankery planetary defence fighter, just slot it neatly into that F22 Mig 29 slot in your mind though heavens knows with its looks it would never make it in the MT world).
http://www.deviantart.com/view/15864069/

My precious ... the Star Bolt, my bastard child of an SS27 Topol M crossed with an Ariane 5. With bells on, 40 ton 200 metre tall HE bells that is. Downside is the thing takes 6 to 10 hours to prep for launch and the mobile naval launcher is weather limited. Upside ..it makes a really really big hole. And looks nothing like an ICBM, namely by being about 8 times too big and appearing like it was built for a moon shot rather than bombardment. Its brand spanking new.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14995045/

Oh here’s a quite post MT battle station I ran up a while back.
Meh damn thing looks like a paddle steamer with those two habitat rings. I would say I could bring 4 of these to bare at any time however do note the manoeuvring thrusters, I would put there numbers in total at 12 and they could indeed go into a formation. I felt I only really needed to mention the main weapons system.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14860551/


And finally just for kicks what gets deployed when I press my Megadeath button.
That figure on there is the total I have spent on WMD stockpile, and its my FT stock pile so ..tone it down a fair dollop.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/15924252/

How much is a rung?

At the present exchange acording to sunsets calc 1 rung = $1.96. Do remember the high energy forces figure is my tottal expenditure EVER.

These are the ships of which the LPN shall be using.

Tigre Squadron

*9 Venture Capital DD
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14664326/

*36 Sea Runner W.I.G.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14677562/

*6 Formidable Class STOVL Aircraft Carrier
http://s7.invisionfree.com/FDI/index.php?showtopic=8

*6 Jericho Class Amphibious Assault Ship
http://s7.invisionfree.com/FDI/index.php?showtopic=53

*1 Leviathan Class Battleship
http://s7.invisionfree.com/FDI/index.php?showtopic=49

*1 Market Forces Carrier
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14932952/

*1 Ray Class HK
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/14843475/

*1 Citadel Ship
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/15163997/

*4 Transport Boats, optimised for carrying SOAT Mk. II's and SORO
V2's.
Plata Squadron

*9 Venture Capital DD
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14664326/

*36 Sea Runner W.I.G.
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14677562/

*1 Market Forces Carrier
http://www.deviantart.com/view/14932952/

*1 Ray Class HK
http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/14843475/

*4 Transport Boats, optimised for carrying SOAT Mk. II's and SORO
V2's.


For convenience, I have also made this known on the IC thread.

OOC: Okay all very cool. Very good diagrams.

ABL's lasers, masers pahasers and such are definently FT, I'm not letting you sneak them in. As of today 2005 there is one laser system in service with the US Military and it is used to destroy ordinance dumps. No laser tested has even shown promise as useful to destroy moving targets.

But now the nad news. There is absolutely no way that I will accept a bomber with a speed of Mach 23 and a 28,000 lbs payload. No aircraft currently built and tested, even the most cutting edge experimental ones can go beyond mach 8 in atmosphere. While it is 2015 in the Free Republic there is no justification to extrapolate a mach 8 to mach 23 jump in just a ten year span (counting from today). The weight of the payload ( I didn't see the weight of the craft itself) alone would mean an enourmous thrust to weight ration would have to be achieved and mach 28 with MT for this craft is not possible.

I also am not impressed that FreeThinker bought any of these. I will say it again, the Doujin Class (designed by FT) is a godmod in my opinion. I only deal with because everyone seems to accept the monstrosity and having a ship that big means it's just a big missle magnet anyhow, but I digress, the Type 800 would have to be tined WAY down.

The other aircraft I minor issues with, but nothing I'd consider worth mentioning, more issues of a tactical philosophy nature, which has no bearing on the technology.

The Ships, I have no issues with either, EXCEPT the carrier with a displacement of 440,000 tons doing 48 knots. And the MASER technology, that's just silly.

Other than that, at what you have listed and what their listed capabilities are I don't see any reason that I can't work with them.

As for my satellites, a satellite in low earth orbit directly over the battle the lag would be reduced to milliseconds and give plenty of time and information to the Comet guidance systems. For all intents and purposes, the RASTER Satellites are feeding information in real time. This is not only plausible, but US spy satellites fed information to ground forces in the Iraqi war in real time.

I just have to point out, that your naval forces (by what you've posted) are outnumbered nearly ten to one and your air forces are about even. Your naval forces will be well within range of the largest guns of the Revenge Battleships and the largest missles of the Revenge Battleships.

While your ships are most impressive, and the jets are more impressive, I just don't see anything here that I can't counteract , once agin sending in a nearly unsupported strike force right at the Naval Guard is playing into EXACTLY what the Jaguar Arsenal-Cruisers were designed for, I said it to Island States and I'll say it agin, you're sending the exact type of attack that the Naval Guard was esigned to wipe out and repel.

OOC: Okay all very cool. Very good diagrams.

ABL's lasers, masers pahasers and such are definently FT, I'm not letting you sneak them in. As of today 2005 there is one laser system in service with the US Military and it is used to destroy ordinance dumps. No laser tested has even shown promise as useful to destroy moving targets.

Yes because Boeing does not exist as a company.
Also, "AS OF THIS DAY 2005" Fighters cannot go Mach 6, the Lazers should be allowed.


But now the nad news. There is absolutely no way that I will accept a bomber with a speed of Mach 23 and a 28,000 lbs payload. No aircraft currently built and tested, even the most cutting edge experimental ones can go beyond mach 8 in atmosphere. While it is 2015 in the Free Republic there is no justification to extrapolate a mach 8 to mach 23 jump in just a ten year span (counting from today). The weight of the payload ( I didn't see the weight of the craft itself) alone would mean an enourmous thrust to weight ration would have to be achieved and mach 28 with MT for this craft is not possible.
In 2015 in Easter countries they Might be able to afford a T-80, you may be behind in tech reasearch.

I also am not impressed that FreeThinker bought any of these. I will say it again, the Doujin Class (designed by FT) is a godmod in my opinion. I only deal with because everyone seems to accept the monstrosity and having a ship that big means it's just a big missle magnet anyhow, but I digress, the Type 800 would have to be tined WAY down.

The Doujin is PMT, not FT, larger ships can be built with Today's technology, however Naval warfare is past giant ships.


The Ships, I have no issues with either, EXCEPT the carrier with a displacement of 440,000 tons doing 48 knots. And the MASER technology, that's just silly.
Do some research, and read up on people before you try to play with them and their freinds.

As for my satellites, a satellite in low earth orbit directly over the battle the lag would be reduced to milliseconds and give plenty of time and information to the Comet guidance systems. For all intents and purposes, the RASTER Satellites are feeding information in real time. This is not only plausible, but US spy satellites fed information to ground forces in the Iraqi war in real time.

No Anti-Anti system is 100% perfect, we should get kills, and we will just fire more.

I just have to point out, that your naval forces (by what you've posted) are outnumbered nearly ten to one and your air forces are about even. Your naval forces will be well within range of the largest guns of the Revenge Battleships and the largest missles of the Revenge Battleships.
This is fair enough, but so few ships against so many targets are hardly gunna make a serious problem, slight harassment yes, total anihalation? no.

While your ships are most impressive, and the jets are more impressive, I just don't see anything here that I can't counteract , once agin sending in a nearly unsupported strike force right at the Naval Guard is playing into EXACTLY what the Jaguar Arsenal-Cruisers were designed for, I said it to Island States and I'll say it agin, you're sending the exact type of attack that the Naval Guard was esigned to wipe out and repel.

You can only "Counter-act" them because you are cutting out the peices you cannot counter-act/don't like and saying you can do so.

By the logic here, we can ignore pretty much the 400 mile range railguns, and the missiles, as THEY DO NOT EXIST EFFECTIVELY ON THIS DAY.


Also, Midlonia, the last post you made about the Dauntless was that it would not be ready for a week. Edolia has stated that these things are happening hour to hour.

The Dauntless is not fully combat ready, but it has its skeleton crew around, so, loading a couple of sat killers and borrowing some crew from the other two combat ready ships will hardly hurt, or take very long, note she is still at port, and not ready to move.
You will know she is ready when I post so.

...

I quite clearly stated I would tone down the Type 800 SEVERLY. E.g. Mach 10 and a payload of 12,000 pounds given the fact I stated my capacity at two Sea Slams.

I don't see how in 2015 we will not have ABL deployment given the fact their testing them now. Given present NASA SCRAM jet tests I don't see the first tiers of those aircraft not being deployed either. I just don't see it being conceivable for these things not to be available in a post MT world of 2015.

You have orbital energy weapons platforms for heavens sake and its cheaper to put them on aircraft. The entire point of a Type 800 strike is a self defending network of ABL's with missile or bomb payloads. That and to go really farking fast. Its hull shape is even extrapolated from that of NASA's SCRAM jet test units.

MASER "weapons" are no more than overpowered microwave generation systems the technology is right here, and right now, an AEGIS cruises radar can and does do a similar job with a fair few brute force EW systems being basically nothing but low powered MASERs. I also think that on a BB I do indeed have the room. They certainly would take less room than ..oh say a rail gun.

Theirs nothing fancy or incredibly high tech about them, they are far easier to implement than Lasers and though they can't actually stop an object they can sure as hell fry it, especially if it has metal components and theirs 80 megawatts of power behind it. They are a more than "definite" deployment in a 2015 time frame.

Um .. 1200 kilometres from Baltic Island is still 2800 kilometres from Yasmarea.
that’s like .. aye ..a bugger long way for a shell to fire even if it is a farking coil gun, though I would presume very long range heavy ship launched missiles could do it.

Um that fleet I have no intention of engaging you with, its guarding the tankers loiter point, and by that very nature its within land based air cover from Baltic Island.

Oddly large ships can indeed go relatively fast. They just can't manoeuvre usually , note however my water jets. Now they won't give me much leeway given the shear bulk I’m dealing with, but they will certainly give me enough to be going with. I am estimating by 2015 my power to weight ratio will have improved a certain amount over the 1975 date the Nimitz was launched. Do remember a Nimitz is 102,000 tons of displacement travelling at 30 knots. That’s 1975. Call me odd but I just think we could do better than that in a 2015 time frame.

As for the size well I have just the thing for that.

http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=395472&goto=lastpost

eh? Shes big sure, but not the biggest and she’s well within the limits of present technology in size alone to build. Once built she’s nothing like a Doujin namely as she’s one hell of a lot smaller and doesn’t carry all that vast super structure and armour.

OMFG! WORKING ABL! BOEING GODMODES! (http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/flash.html)

This message paid for by the Society For Knowing What The Hell You Are Talking About Before You Post

Midlonia: I do not see anywhere that I posted that will not take casualties. I simply stated that my fleet is designed to counter act these exact type of attacks.

If you actually take the time to read the white papers and test reports on Boeings ABL systems you will see that , like the anti-ballistic missle system, there has been NO sucessful tests under real life conditions and that Boeing has estimated that the technology will not be ready for possibly 15-20 years. There MAY be a quantum leap in research tomorrow that allows ABL's to work perfectly, but I don't roleplay 'ifs' and 'maybes'.

I know that Freethinker is PMT. I still am not impressed by the Doujin, sorry I'm not. It's a big missle magnet, that while posible to build it would be so expensive and unwieldly that it would be useless, that's just my opinion, I've stated it many times before.

You are correct as of this day fighters cannot go Mach 6 , none of my fighters go mach 6, I have never posted that. As of this day, experimental and test craft have sucessfully gone mach 8 and flown in near orbit, the Death's Head goes mach 6 and flies at a sub orbital level.

The Duantless and it's skeleton crew can fire. Good luck when we counter attack it ;)

It is absolutely amazing that for the past week ZMI has told me- missles with a range of 3,000 miles are not possible, vertically launched torpedos are not possible, everything I have posted, has RL counterparts that have either been built or used, or tested and researched, I have even posted supporting RL links.

Yet when I say that things that do not exist in any plausible useful RL manner , like Masers, lasers, ABL's , space ships, space fleets, killer satellites, etc........ all of you say "oh those are possible and we have them, but you can't countercat them, because your hardware is impossible."

It's amazing to me that nations that RP having thousands of spaceships that can traverse light years in seconds tell me that a vertical firing torpedo tube is 'impossible' well guess what, the RN navy tested them in the 80's and 90's. I have yet to see a test of spacefleets?

Bryn Shander: You didn't actually read that webpage did you?

Click the links. Boeing's 'sucessful' tests was a sucessful launch of the aircraft with the ABL aboard.

The sucessful 'Fire' test was a 'first light' test , ie they can point a laser at a target sight.

If you follow this link from your page: http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2004/q4/nr_041112s.html

You can read how not only are THEY NOT firing any lasers at any actual missles but they are still testing the FLIGHT WORTHINESS of a boeing with ABL system, ie, they still aren't certain it's even safe to fly.

Bryn Shander, you are none too bright my boy, you posted a link that supports what I said nearly verbatim.

If you actually take the time to read the white papers and test reports on Boeings ABL systems you will see that , like the anti-ballistic missle system, there has been NO sucessful tests under real life conditions and that Boeing has estimated that the technology will not be ready for possibly 15-20 years. There MAY be a quantum leap in research tomorrow that allows ABL's to work perfectly, but I don't roleplay 'ifs' and 'maybes'.

Are you at all aware of the definition of post modern?

OOC: Yes I am. I will generally allow anything in RP that has been sucessfully tested.

For instance, the US Airforce has tested a reactive camoflage system for aircraft. Actually tested, they put it on a plane, flew it and it worked reasonably well. Why don't US planes have it? The test cost upward of a billion dollars, multiply that by each plane and then add the cost of the plane ie YIKES!

BUT in the NS world, I have no issue with anyone saying 'in my nation it's 2020 (roughly post modern/modern in NS) and my nation can effectively manufacture a practically priced reactive camoflage skin for planes.'

I will accept that , BECAUSE , the recative skin has been SHOWN to work, not THEORIZED to work.

The ABL on the other hand is THEORY, it has never actaully worked, I'm simply not comfortable saying 'okay, it's a good and plausible theory so go ahead and mass produce it.' that makes me uncomfortable. Even saying 20 years from now it's not reasonable to say 'not only have I tested ABL's , but I can mass produce them and put them on all my bombers.' Considering that Boeing began the project in the 90's and is just now seeing IF it can fly without everyone crashing in a horrible fiery death.

http://www.boeing.com/defense-space/military/abl/tests8.html

Now do we know what "illuminators propagating at full power" means?

Why we do.

The laser does work.

They are going to live fire it within the year. Even if this test fails I just don't see 15 to 20 years of RnD not producing several working systems and a somewhat more compact version than the present version.

Everything else is just platform and fire control related. That’s minor in relation to getting the actual weapon to work. People have over the years managed to get some mighty odd looking aircraft to fly and the ABLs alterations to the 747s air frame are relatively minor. Air frame safety testing has nothing whatsoever to do with the effectiveness of the weapon.

15 to 20 years of computer and fire control advances will easily make it most lethal. Its compensation for atmospheric distortion is a proven and on the scale of things a simple technology. The dawn of the ABL is inevitable.

OOC: I agree. As I stated the ABL theoretically is a very good idea and will work someday. BUT I am not comfortable using it until they actually get it to work.

I don't think that's unreasonable.

I will give another example. If you have seen my thread Opertaion Thunderhead (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=388774) you will see that the Free Republic is developing a 'Grav-Ship'

You will even see that unlike Melkor and Menelmacar I even go into great and minute detail on it's actual propulsion and anti-gravity properties. EVERYTHING on the Thunderhead is well within the realm of THEORETICAL physics and a scant few technologies I touch upon are actually being tested.

WHY did I just bring that up? Look at my deployed forces, do you see a Thunderhead? Why didn't I deploy the Thunderhead, if I have a Grav-ship why not deploy it and blow you all way?

Because it's mostly theory, not only am I uncomfortable with YOU using theoretical technology, I'm uncomfortable with ME using theoretical technology. I set the same limitations on myself.

Now ZMI is very happy to set limitations on me, but not himself. That doesen't work for me either.

ZMI did put restrictions on himself, we have never placed any on you at all, we are trying to justify our tech to you because you think you are good enough to decide on what is an isn't allowed, we have made alot of sacrifices, otherwise you could have expected something along the scale and effect of the One Day War.

Stop being so hissy because some tech we have is not here right now in perfect existence.

About the Doujin, it's roughly 2010 tech. About the only things that don't really exist today are the armour composites and ETCs, but the composites can be developed and there are enough lab ETCs that we could probably build, at great expense, the guns without expecting them to blow up every time they fired. As for size, have any of you ever heard of the Freedom Ship? It's significatly larger than the Doujin is and it's a real ship.

IRT #44

Wstfghl .. urk …dude what that? That’s like ..a post of foot shooting. Your roughly 1800 kilometres away from my fleet. That’s not a limitation that’s a fact. No way your BB's rail guns could range that. Sure some very long range heavy naval missiles could probably engage me.

Your comparing not deploying a Grav ship with not deploying an air borne laser. Do you have any idea how insane that sounds?!? I mean just read that again.

"I will give another example. If you have seen my thread Opertaion Thunderhead you will see that the Free Republic is developing a 'Grav-Ship'"

Please forgive me if I have issue with this.. but well I do and I hope that it is an understandable one.

Lets just look at that one more time in replay

In 2015 ...

Grav ship…under development

Air borne laser…none deployed, none ready to be deployed, none in existence.

Riiight. .

MASERs are in their simplest forms in use right now.

Go to your kitchen.

Turn on your microwave.

Or just pick up your mobile phone and dial someone.

Really all I'm doing is scaling them up, using directional filtering and beam culmination (which I might add some fancy home microwaves use for cooking pizzas,) and pumping 80 Megawatts through them.

...

dude .. I have done a great deal to limit things I created for FT engagements to your post MT era.

http://www.spacedaily.com/news/laser-04v.html
That was last year

http://www.edwards.af.mil/archive/2002/2002-archive-abl_first_flight.html
And that was all the way back in 2002

There have already been tests of the weapon on the ground that have proven successful and all that remains is to do so intercepts in the air. And personally speaking, if he chose to use a GRASER I wouldn't complain all that much, simply because there have already been lab experiments that have proven that they work.

OOC: First off SS, you're doing a deplorable job ignoring me.

Second off you can't kill anyone witha microwave.

Third off, I RP what my country develops, I always have. From the Thunderer Battletanks to the Orion Fighters to the Sword of Damocles all have had test and development threads.

My point with the Grav-Ship was that they are not here because I am not comfortable that they are possible. I am comfortable developing the possibility and maybe in 2 more RL years the Free Republic may have something out there as a Grav-Ship.

My reasoning makes perfect sense. If there is no real actual test or use of a technologies application for what you intend to use it for, I'm going not going to deal with it, simple as that.

You can rail against my reasoning all you want, but your difference of OPINION isn't going to change my mind. It's just that, a dofference of opinion.

YOUR opinion is that technologies that currently do not exist WILL in ten years become the standard that everyone uses.

MY opinion is that it's too early to predict what will be the standard technologies in ten years.

In the 1930's every nation BUT Germany gave up on tank and tank development feeling that the technology was either impractical or had reached the zenith of it's development. Ten years later and tank development was the #1 priority of every infantry army on the panet.

In ten years ABL technology could be so archaic and cumbersome that Boeing may decide to shelve it and not even further develpoe it. Maybe they will have further developed sonic anti-missle weapons that surpass the ABL in practicality and performance and ABL will simply be a side note on aircraft mounted anti-missle technology.

MY point is we don't know. So as my guide I use things that have actually been used or at least tested , to show their practicality.

So guess what. If you make another post as to why you don't like my opinion, I won't respond. My opinion is based on my feeling for the need to inject a modicum of realism and fairness into NS, so that's how I RP it. It won't change.

If you don't like my opinion on what comprises MT , and I know many people who don't, don't get involved with my technology. I know many people that think my idea of MT is perfect and they attempt to emulate it or agree with it perfectly. It's NS , it's free-form it's highly variable.

Everyone wants their technology to be the 'standard' but guess what, it never will be, which is why there are ALWAYS discussions and questions in EVERY war thread posted in NS. There will always be people that agree with your technology and there will always be people that disagree with your technology. Live with it.

P.S. SS: Your first link about the ABL test was a 'first light' test , exactly as decribed in what Bryn Shander posted. PLEASE READ YOUR LINK. In that test NO MISSLE WAS DESTROYED, NOTHING WAS DESTROYED OR EVEN DAMAGED BY ANY LASER! Once again that link supports my position. NO MISSLE, TANK, JEEP, OR SHIP HAS EVER BEEN DESTROYED BY A LASER IN REAL LIFE CONDITIONS.

Your second links, is a TEST FLIGHT. They loaded a laser on a plane and flew it, but once again nothing was destroyed by the laser! It supports my point again!

Errr... Using railguns (Railguns whose rails were not rendered unusable with the first shot have never been developed)) and proclaiming ABL's to be... Impossible within the timeframe in question?

... Impressive hypocrisy.

PS: Microwaves can heat your food to temperatures that make it, well, edible. Now, guess what happens when you use concentrated microwaves in a beam and shoot them at a human... I would agree that Microwaves are a somewhat... well, bad choice when it comes to creating lethal weaponery (They can be quite neat for non-lethal weapons, though, as well as for ECM stuffs), but it is most definitely possible.

Everyone wants their technology to be the 'standard' but guess what, it never will be, which is why there are ALWAYS discussions and questions in EVERY war thread posted in NS. There will always be people that agree with your technology and there will always be people that disagree with your technology. Live with it.Oddly enough, no. Mutual respect tends to help a great deal when it comes to creating enjoyable threads without bitching, despite countless differences between the style of the nations involved. Believe me, I've been involved in serveral of them.

Of course... The 'Respect' thing is a little problem, I think... Since it lacks, from your side. Getting a bit desperate at the diplomatic failure that is currently resulting in you getting gangbanged by a group of opponents that features vastly superior resources? Needing to find a way out, steering towards mutual ignore, perhaps?

Hey, just a theory, I'm not accusing anyone.

Lasers exist and are lethal.
Microwaves exist and are lethal.
This is beyond reasonable scientific doubt never mind the realms of personnel technological "opinions", yours or mine.

You sorely try my patience sir, I rarely find it necessary to defend proven scientific fact to one who claims to be in development of something that would require the acceptance of string theory and the discovery and more impressively harnessing of gravitons. Something so far in advance of the application and use of lasers as to render me speechless in its contemplation.

I have gone far beyond the normal realms of discourse defending this while you repeatedly use hostile words towards me.

Oddly enough, no. Mutual respect tends to help a great deal when it comes to creating enjoyable threads without bitching, despite countless differences between the style of the nations involved. Believe me, I've been involved in serveral of them.

Of course... The 'Respect' thing is a little problem, I think... Since it lacks, from your side.

I have to admit, it's these sorts of arguements that steer me well away from RPing wars in general as it tends to get a little silly after a while. To be fair I was thinking of getting involved (given the strong links Iuthia is supposed to have with Edolia, hell, we have a military base on their mainland) however I've not really gotten into the mood and I'm a little late now. Not that I would really like the idea of anything military anyways as everyone seems to be arguing over one anothers superiourity.

The argument is not over superiority, Vaad clearly has superior fire power and numbers to me. Its presently over the weapons applications of microwaves and coherent light.

OOC: First off SS, you're doing a deplorable job ignoring me.

Second off you can't kill anyone witha microwave.


Could you please explain to me what logic you use to come to this conclusion?

Microwaves do indeed kill people, there have been several incidents where people have placed their pets into a microwave to dry them off, and guess what? That's right, they died.

If you'd like to counter this claim, go tell a physician that the waves cannot kill people, like Robert Oppenheimer, father of the A-Bomb, or Einstein, hell, try your old Physics teacher, and they will laugh in your face because of how stupid you sound.

Go off and learn something about radiation and discover that Microwaves are indeed a form therof and can kill people, or at the very least cure and cause Cancer, and what does Cancer do? Kill people, so too much of being bombarded with Microwaves are going to do what? Cook you from the inside.
This is Secondary School education stuff.

Raditation = microwaves
Raditation does indeed exist.
I also suggest you quit whining over every damn detail and nitpick because you and your obvious great knowledge thinks it cannot exist.


Stop bloody nitpicking, I dislike you more and more with every peice of clap-trap "IT CANNOT EXIST BECAUSE MY EGO SAYS SO" statement.

To Ilek Vaad.

That’s it. I have had quite enough of you sir. You have blatantly engineered this situation to insure you do not pay the piper. I have been beyond reasonable and more than accepting of your demands upon my role-play.

Future tech would be me pulling cyborg ninja assassins armed with moly blades and neural stripper EM rifles into your capital for target designation for orbital GRASER platforms while using gene targeting nano tech samizdat devices to kill your heads of government and general staff.

Future tech would be me deploying a star navy and idly brushing a section of the planet into the void with massed kinetics and energy fire or just dropping it into another quantum membrane.

Future tech would be serious national extra planetary assets, braking the light barrier regularly and or the use of instant trans location via a toriodal singularity/wormholes.

True future tech stretches what is acceptable to realities breaking limit and in many cases beyond given the necessarily fractal accepted nature of this fictional universe we have communally created.

I gave what I thought was a remarkably reasonable post MT technological conversion of my role-play just for the sake of your restrictions upon this role-plays technological base.

I will not tolerate your lack of manners and incomplete almost diatribe like arguments in this matter any further. Their clearly poorly crafted and hypocritical nature seem to me to have been created to allow you to anger me to the point where either I or you create an ignore or a group ignore to escape your fleets impending doom at the hands of the USR, this will not occur due to that line of attack. I could do nothing to damage your reputation any more in this incident due to the fact you have already disgraced yourself to the point of risking deletion. That alone damns you far more than I could ever do.

If I had more patience than I do and an obscene amount of tolerance for your nonsense and far less pride then I do I would resort to retconing the entire air raid and just wait till my battle fleet and the Midlonian fleet were ready to sally forth and rid the seas of you, not that I expect you to be able to survive this with your force intact without large numbers of ignores. However I lack the patience, tolerance and have too much pride to give in to your un reasonable demands. If as I suspect this was your intention then you sir are dishonourable. If it was not then your actions have put you below my notice.

The last straw was your OOC statement of “OOC: I don't think there will be anymore fighting, ZMI refuses to stop using FT so far?”…

That if my worst impressions are correct was intended to sicken me. If it was merely the level at which you seem to debate and role-play then you are beneath my notice, if it was a calculated remark to push me towards further argument then your skills are very poorly used and from a moral standpoint I would not wish to associate with you. I still have a nagging doubt however that you lack this level of intra personnel sophistication, and it would be the very worst sort of OOC manipulation to alter an IC event.

Very poor game sir.

“Doc Evilonavich”

Following the lead of other members of the Concordat, I too will be ignoring Ilek-Vaad.

As far as I am concerned, Ilek-Vaad no longer exists and the declaration of war never happened.

Lethislavania has notified me he is leaving the RP (but not ignoring) due to the fact hes going on a trip.

Lasers exist and are lethal.
Microwaves exist and are lethal.
This is beyond reasonable scientific doubt never mind the realms of personnel technological "opinions", yours or mine.

You sorely try my patience sir, I rarely find it necessary to defend proven scientific fact to one who claims to be in development of something that would require the acceptance of string theory and the discovery and more impressively harnessing of gravitons. Something so far in advance of the application and use of lasers as to render me speechless in its contemplation.

I have gone far beyond the normal realms of discourse defending this while you repeatedly use hostile words towards me.

Yes they exist and are lethall, but they do not exist in any weaponized form. They have never been tested to kill anyone in weaponized form.

No microwave oven has even been used to kill anyone, Midlonia, unless of course to beat them to death.

This is why I generally do not take part in war RP's. This so far has had absolutely NOTHING to do with Role Playing, but has only been about ZMI's Midlonia's and Bryn Shanders right to wank and right to limit my wank.

Planes that do mach 28 and mount lasers are Future Tech in my opinion. Ships that do 48 knots and displace 440,000 tons are problematic at best. Microwaves used as weapons are problematic at best.

It is of course entirely your right to ignore me and to disagree with my opinion. None of it will make me RP at your wank level.

It is also interesting that you accuse me of bad RP. Read the thread, me and Edolia are doing a rather nice RP outside of ZMI's and Midlonia's continual OOC complaints and disagreements. ZMI has had TWO IC posts, that's not RP, all of yor other posts have been OOC complaints based on nothing but a difference of opinion. I edited my posts extensively when you did not agree with my assessments and when I made a mistake. You have refused to budge on any point brought up by anyone but yourself.

None of you had any intention of RPing in the first place, you simply wanted to challenge my tech and to point out what you see as short my wank shortcomings to bolster your own wank.

This entire episode has involved no Role Playing whatsoever, just a continual running argument why all my technology should be limited and why I should automatically should accept your technology.

Since my initial intentional hostile post, I have not been hostile , but have plainly stated facts and my appraisal and opinions of said facts. If you view people with a differing point of view as 'hostile' that's too bad.


P.S. Der Angst: I don't use railguns, I have never posted using railguns and have never posted even developing using railguns.No weapon in the Vaadian arsenal has railguns, or railgun technology.

Could you please explain to me what logic you use to come to this conclusion?

Microwaves do indeed kill people, there have been several incidents where people have placed their pets into a microwave to dry them off, and guess what? That's right, they died.

If you'd like to counter this claim, go tell a physician that the waves cannot kill people, like Robert Oppenheimer, father of the A-Bomb, or Einstein, hell, try your old Physics teacher, and they will laugh in your face because of how stupid you sound.

Go off and learn something about radiation and discover that Microwaves are indeed a form therof and can kill people, or at the very least cure and cause Cancer, and what does Cancer do? Kill people, so too much of being bombarded with Microwaves are going to do what? Cook you from the inside.
This is Secondary School education stuff.

Raditation = microwaves
Raditation does indeed exist.
I also suggest you quit whining over every damn detail and nitpick because you and your obvious great knowledge thinks it cannot exist.


Stop bloody nitpicking, I dislike you more and more with every peice of clap-trap "IT CANNOT EXIST BECAUSE MY EGO SAYS SO" statement.


There is no weapon on the face of this earth that you can use to pint microwaves at a person to kill them. There is no weapon on this earth that can focus microwaves to destroy military assets.

There has never been a test of any weaponized microwaves.

If your army wishes to carry around microwave ovens and attemp to get people to climb it, as a weapon, well, I don't know what to say.

You know electricity can kill people, and has killed millions of people, yet the is no 'electrical gun'.

magnifying sunlight enough could cause a person to burst into flames instanly, yet there are no magnifying based sun-light weapons.

Old age can kill anyone, yet there is no instant old-age gun.

There are literally billions of things that can end the life of human beings. Weaponizing them, is the issue.

OOC: Somebody TG me when you're actually ready to roleplay and not simply have an endless debate on the endless possibilities of wank in NS.

You've heard all my opinions on it. I have nothing more to say or add.

must ..RESIST ..need ..to RESPOND.

*thwaks Vaad with the walrus of annoyance.

Just stop dude. Game Over.

OOC: Did you just hit me with the Vraakian Ambassador!?

... I’m at this point in the night just back from the pub and therefore kind of mellow feel free to imagine it was the Vraakian ambassador.

I wish to make the following simple points.

Your reasoning seems to hinge on the concept of it hasn’t been done yet so it never can be and yet ..you set this in the future where things that have not been done yet must be done.

I can think of no worse line of flawed argument .

Here is a simple example of why your argument fails.

No one has ever died by being hit by a 40 ton live whale thrown out of an aircraft.
If someone throws a 40 ton live whale out of an aircraft and you are hit by it you will die.
However its never happened and therefore you can’t die if you are hit by a 40 ton live whale thrown from an aircraft.

Their may be plans for a whale dropping aircraft with “whale guidance” or maybe its just some nutty idea I came up with right here and now none the less I’m fairly sure that I could throw a 40 ton whale out of an aircraft and kill someone with it. I’m even remarkably sure I could make an insane weapon out of it.

Their has never been a flight of a single sub orbital bomber.

No sub orbital bomber has ever been used in combat, nor a sub orbital weapons strike ever carried out in actual combat conditions. No weapon has ever been released from a sub orbital bomber, nor do any such specific craft exist even on the serious drawing board. No sub orbital bomber has ever destroyed anything. Ever. Nary a hair on a babes head has been touched by such a thing.

Space ship one exists. The entire history of manned space flight exists. Missiles and warhead delivery systems exist. Heat shields exist.

By your reasoning and justification your Deaths Heads ..don't neigh cant exist, you could develop them forever but never actually “use them” in role-play for of course ..they don’t ..exist as no sub orbital craft has ever been used as a weapon.

Their components and needed systems are around right now but the development of a sub orbital bomber is far further back than that of an ABL in that it has not even been funded or even planned for an actual project right now.

We can take this further.
No modern arsenal ship has ever been built. Plans have been made, its weapons exist and have been tested. Its systems exist. Yet not one person has ever died from being attacked by an arsenal ship. People have died from missiles and big ships exist. Yet unlike the ABL ..no arsenal ship project has actually gone ahead.

Now we come to your comparison.

Gravitons have never to this day been detected and until they are string theory is still ..just theory. Your trying to make the use of coherent light as a weapon sound as fantastic as manipulating the very quantum membrane of the universe, a thing which unlike light may not even exist at all in the form we believe it too.

Your argument is critically flawed as is your reasoning method. I am also deeply suspicious about your motives. I reiterate my call of poor game and I wish to protest your actions here as bad sportsmanship or just plain foolishness.

*Cough*

I would like to make a final point before I leave this forever and go off to continue my work in the Concordat.

Using the logic I have 'learned' from here over the course of a few days, I have come to the following conclusions:

Asteroids and/or meteorites have never killed any human beings in recorded history. There was a dog in Egypt back in the 1920s or so, but an asteroid or meteorite has never struck and killed a person in written history.
Therefore, no asteroid will EVER kill ANYONE.

Gamma Ray Bursts have never been indicated to have killed anyone ever! Therefore, GRBs will never kill anyone.

Also, I have never heard of someone burning themselves while ironing their clothes while they were wearing them. Regardless of the warning stickers, we can conclude that no one can ever be burnt while ironing their clothes while wearing them.

To your claim that lasers have destroyed nothing ever and have not been turned into weapons.

MTHEL is a development of the mobile version of the Tactical High Energy Laser (THEL) testbed weapon, developed by Northrop Grumman under a US Army contract. Its under joint development with Israel with several test beds actually shipped to the country.

Since the year 2000, MTHEL intercepted five artillery projectiles and 28 rocket targets, including the short range 122mm Katyusha type rockets fired singly and in salvos and larger, long range 160mm rockets which has twice the range of the standard katyusha. Most recently, on August 24, 2004 the system intercepted and destroyed mortar bombs, fired both single and in salvos. During the most recent test conducted on May 2004, MTHEL destroyed a large caliber rocket target, containing a live warhead, which was intercepted by the laser weapon.

Now I find it hard to believe that it would be harder to shoot a jeep ..or a tank ..or a ship than a missile, or a mortar round.

I really don't know anything about what you guys are talking about, so I'm just going to say this:

One of the things that I find really annoying about NationStates wars is the tendancy for a lot of players to turn them into battles of who knows the most about technology, which result in these huge OOC threads where people are arguing over whether or not a suborbital bomber has ever been tested and whether scramjets are feasible (or whatever). I should remind you that this is a roleplaying game, and that the primary focus of it is roleplaying. When I fight a war, I try to steer clear of technology. I tell the people I'm going up against "my tech is similar to yours." I've got some missile, tank, plane, etc names that I throw around, but their exact stats depends on the tech level of my opponent.

That may not be as technologically arousing, but it leads to a lot fewer ignore cannons going off. On the other hand, if you guys really like your tech battles, don't let me stand in your way. I just get the impression that they don't really turn out so well.

OOC: My point, again, in a nutshell.

I do not deny that these technologies are possible. I also do not deny that one day they may, indeed, be commonplace and feasible to use. BUT, just because they have been theorized and are undergoing development, does not mean that there will ever be the means tp mass produce these technologies and make them as readily as available as firearms or missles.

There are plenty of cases of technologies, that when first developed everyone thought and predicted that they were the wave of the future. It was predicted when the first airplanes were developed that by 1950 everyone would have an airplane and that no one would use terriestrial based transportation ever again. We can all see how silly that prediction was and how wrong it was. When lasers were first developed, it was predicted that lasers would replace firearms by the 1990's, once agin wrong. It was predicted when the Concord was developed, that all other jets would be obsolete in ten years, now the Concord is obsolete and other forms of jet aircraft dominate.

I am personally not comfortable with extrapolation Boeings predictions that in a year they will actually be able to destroy missles with a jet mounted laser, into everyone of your jets having an ABL.

On your other points, read my earlier posts, I mentioned the US Army's current lasr system. It is a single hummer, equipped with a lser. It uses the laser to destroy ammo dumps, after holding the laser on the munitions for ten minutes, the munitions explodes. Once again it is unrealistic to extrapolate this to fleets of aircraft armed with ABL's.

On the sub-orbital bomber front, the B2-Spirit, is calssified as sub-orbital. The Death's Head flies only 30,000 feet higher and does so with a dramatically larger more powerful engines and a dramatically reduced payload, once again , read my post, the Death's Head only carries FOUR missles. I traded payload for service ceiling.

No arsenal ships exist? How about the US Navy's Sea Shadow. It is identical to the Jaguar Arsenal Cruiser, designed to have all missle based weaponry, a dual hull that allows it hydroplane at great speeds. The only difference? The Sea Shadow is smaller.

I have been playing NS for two years. I have been a military buff for 25 years and I minored in Military History. I have thouroughly researched my armies equipment, and have slowly modified it as the years have passed. If you were arou7nd 2 years ago you would have seen how the Retaliatory Guard were orginally using B-2 bombers, FN-FAL assault rifles and Type-42 Cruisers. But over the years I have RP'ed gradual steady, technological advancement as it occurs in real life.

Now the Retaliatory Guard use a modified FN-Minimi with caseless ammunition, they use the Death's Head a larger faster B-2, the have replaced their entire fleet of cruisers and frigates with Jaguar Arsenal Cruisers, a larger Sea Shadow.

I don't know what else to say. I have provided RL support for everything I've said and my own personal opinion on what I am comfortable RPing.

We obviously disagree. I changed my posts and my forces when you disagreed with them, I even relented and let you use your 'conventional' forces and after you posted them, I raised four points that I was not comfortable with. No ABL's, no planes flying at mach 28, no 400,000 ton ships with a cruising speed of 48 knots and no Masers. I don't think that for Modern Tech, that those are outrageous demands. None of these things overtly effected your forces. No ABL's or Masers, say that your ships have RAM batteries. No bombers at Mach 28 , then say they flay at mack 6 or mach 8. Then just say your carrier does a respectable 20-30 knots like a normal carrier (still faster than mine by the way.) and then move on.

Those are not huge changes, they are reasonable changes to come down from future tech, to modern tech.

I'll just point out again that massed air attacks are useless against my fleets. The Jaguar Arsenal Cruiser, is all anti-air and all anti-missle. It does have some weaknessess but that's for you to figure out, that's part of the RP. Another part of the RP is compromise, so that both or all players involved are comfortable with what is going on. So far you made me compromise, and then refused to compromise yourself and instead attacked me on a personal OOC level.

OC: good to see you can read isn't it Vaad?

ZMI posted twice, very clearly that the specs were FT, but he had reduced the specs to suit your usual glorious needs.
They do not go mach 28
The go Mach 10
AS STATED IN HIS POST

OOC: No bombers at Mach 28 , then say they flay at mack 6 or mach 8.

Err... yeah, and it's not like he hasn't stated that at least this has been reduced, but hey, who actually needs to read posts eh? You're right, personally I look at his technology and tend to go a little funny in the head too, though when I look at it he tells me his Future Technology stats... he has modified things himself and you ignored those changes.

Personally I would agree with most of your arguements, but you're not giving them much at all.

Type 800 (warning as stated specs are for the FT version)

http://www.deviantart.com/view/14458601/
On the note of that attack here is a link to my Type 800, be assured that it will be toned down severely given the FT nature of the specs, especially the payload, maximum speed and ABL output.

Just incase we missed it by some strange circumstance...

OOC: Yes, he modified one thing. Big deal.

You this is stupid. I have stated my opinion over and over and over and over and over and over of what I believe is acceptable as modern tech and with what I am comfortable roleplaying.

I have dumbed down my tech , which was already modern tech, reduced my forces , and even removed mention in my post of my deployment of re-inforcements, that was made weeks before ZMI ever showed up, all because ZMI did not agree with them.

So he then reduces mach 28 to mach 10 and then starts a week long tirade on the rest. Big deal.

I will roleplay what I feel is appropriate to Modern Tech. This whole argument is about WHAT MY OPINION OF MODERN TECH IS.Nothing else. To make matters worse I have a cadre of FUTURE TECH NATIONS that are telling me what Modern Tech is and then posting RL links that support my assertions in the first place.

I've said four times now, I'm not changing my opinion. I do not have to RP at your tech level, I do not have to RP your tech assumptions I do not have to agree with you on technology THAT DOESEN'T EXIST AND IS ALL THEORY ANYWAY.

Iuthia: I can't believe that you, of all people would criticize me on this. This whole argument is about differences in RP technology. I have seen you many times post that nations can RP whatever tech they want. This is all about ZMI, Midlonia and Bryn Shander trying to force me to RP with their tech at their tech level, how would you react?

I am not changing my mind. I have explained my position. If you don't agree THEN DON'T RP WITH ME. It's that simple, it's NS we all are free to make our own choices on how we RP and who we RP with. We're not al compatible.

The only people RPing right now are me and Edolia, THE REST OF YOU ARE JUST ARGUING ABOUT WANK.

I don't agree with you, you don't agree with me. I'm not responding to this post again.

Iuthia: I can't believe that you, of all people would criticize me on this. This whole argument is about differences in RP technology. I have seen you many times post that nations can RP whatever tech they want.

Want to know my problem? You ignored that comment and continued on and on about how Mach 28 is impossible when he had already stated he had changed it.

I don't care why you are ignoring his technology, I never stated that I did and quite frankly I don't like the way you go about arguing... I agree that his stuff is too heavy, but you aren't giving him credit for anything. Perhaps if you weren't so aggressive about it you two could work it out and I would be on HIS ass about his technology.

But again, you missed my point entirely.

OOC: What about the way they go on arguing? Why is it when I respond to a post I'm arguing, and they aren't? Why is it when I post my opinion it's hostile and when they post theirs it's not? Why is it that I'm blamed for this argument when they started it?

I simply said I won't role play Future Tech. So they decided to send Modern Tech forces, with a little future tech mixed in , and I still said no and posted a detailed, concise explanation on what I felt constituted Modern Tech. They don't accept it and now no matter where I post, here, the OHS forum, one of you posts something derogatory about me.

Why is that THEY are trying to tell me what I and how I have to PR , and I'm the one at fault?

Please tell me.

OOC: What about the way they go on arguing?

Because the last spout of arguing about technology got nastier and nastier from both sides when you kept arguing that his technology wasn't possible because of the obcene speed capabilities of mach 26, and he would respond in kind by saying "no, I've tones those stats down, it's actually mach 10" and then argue his own technology and so on. Then you ignored that toning down again, after a while it begins to look like you are perposefully ignoring those changes and he thinks he's getting nothing from you. He doesn't really care about what technology you're taking away, he just wants his technology to be accepted. Granted, he's probably not going to get that but you could at least listen to his posts instead of ignoring the bits which he's giving you.

Is he perfect? Hell no, but alot of this can be worked out if people chill out and given that you don't seem to be reading his posts or accepting that he's trying then it's probably going to get no where.

Meh, perhaps I'm reading it wrong, but I see it more as you ignoring his attempts to work it out.

OOC: He toned down one thing, and then proceeded to tell me that me that I had to accept the rest, period.

Now I'm the belligerent , hostile, asshole, because I won't RP the tech the way they want. Did you read earlier where Midlonia and Bryn Shander were posting where I HAVE to RP future tech no matter what I personally want, just because I had an RP with Menelmacar? Did you read where they called me things like an 'idiot', 'dishonouable' and 'stupid' ?

Aside from my first post, which was intentionally hostile, I have only dryly stated my opinion and my personal preferences.

This whole argument is about wank. They want more wank than me.

I'm sick of being the bad guy because I have a diferent opinion. So if I'm the bad guy because I explain my opinion, then all I can say is oh well.

Now , if you'd read the posts Iuthia, you'd see that while he did tone down mach 28 to 10, his jets still have lasers, his ships still have masers, his carrier is still cruising at 49 kts and displacing 400,000 tons, and they still tell me I HAVE to accept it, or I'm an idiot.

OOC:Now, if you'd read the posts Iuthia, you'd see that while he did tone down mach 28 to 10, his jets still have lasers, his ships still have masers, his carrier is still cruising at 49 kts and displacing 400,000 tons, and they still me I HAVE to accept it, or I'm an idiot.

Meh, I didn't comment on the starting posts because I figured that was resolved after they were jerks to you and you flamed them and got warned by a moderator.

I have said time and time again that I admit the rest of it is a little heavy... have I not stated this? Have I not agreed that were it not for the fact you weren't giving them much back I would agree?

Now quit ignoring my point. Try acknowlegding when they make some changes towards what they want instead of ignoring them. But meh, I guess it doesn't matter...

OOC: In the last two posts, I acknowledged that ZMI did in fact change from mach 28 to 10.

I have then gone on to state that other changes needed to be made. I would prefer some sort of parity of wank.

I would prefer some sort of parity of wank.

And I agree, when I think of Modern Technology I think of planes, tanks and weapons very similar to whats avialable today, not laser beams the such. Lasers to me are used for gun sights...

You know what would be a good idea, guys? If we stopped worrying about what technology is feasible and actually roleplayed stuff happening. NS shouldn't be about who knows more about lasers. There are plenty of laser-geek forums that you guys can argue about them on. Why not forget about the tech and just RP the shit happening? Would it really hurt you that much?

OOC: Not at all.

After watching a really mellow film I've come to the conclusion that I've been a bit of a jerk here by just pointing out one problem out of a large number of issues... I dunno, I guess I was just getting annoyed at very little and some things (like what I saw as gloating) rubbed me the wrong way.

I agree that RP is the issue here, not technology and the whole arguement got out of hand on both sides (I'm not changing my opinion about that, trust me) when really it should be more of quick process of what is accepted by both sides and what isn't... once it's been established then it's a matter of either coming to an agreement or not RPing at all, so far it's got stuck with the arguement about the technology and not the conclusion of whether they want to RP with the limits or not.

You guys have to work out whats better for the RP itself and not whats best for one player alone. We all know Ilek Vaad isn't interested in accepting far out ideas of modern technology, even I'm a little hesitant about it because I prefer something a little more down to Earth. So what remains is whether the others want to accept this or if they would rather ignore (and retcon the incident they are so hyped up about) or if they would rather keep trying with todays technology in such a way it can't be disputed.

Like Edolia says, the technology doesn't matter... it's the RP.

Sorry Ilek Vaad for just having a go at you, you're not the only one being unreasonable here, but understand that someone has to start and I would rather it was you. I feel it wasn't fair not to reckognise the small attempts made, but as you have said yourself, you aren't getting very far either and personally I would have trouble accepting such questionable modern technology.

To Vaad.
...
Modern tech?

Were you not harping on about 2015 and developing a "Grav ship"... I mean I did read this as a post modern role-play. I distinctly remember this.
Infact you yourself wrote it.

While it is 2015 in the Free Republic there is no justification to extrapolate

Now you claim it to be a modern role-play?

...
And yet you miss the entire point of my previous post.

My point about your arsenal ship and your use of your sub orbital bombers was not to actually criticise its use at all but to point out my problem with your method of argument. I pointed out existing sub orbital craft, I also pointed that missiles and ships do indeed exist. The 40 ton live whale was a silly but effective example of this arguments basis.

I’m taking existing objects and military development projects and saying in 10 years I could use them as a weapons system. By denying this you would by the very same rule have to deny your own extrapolated systems. The Israeli Nautilus system is deployed right now. Its their half of the MTHEL system. That’s a working deployed military laser designed to shoot down incoming artillery or AA targets. The ABL project is also real and the USAF does seem to believe that lasers are a useable weapon. By ignoring lasers as useable weapons you would be not ignoring little old me but the real world as of this date.

Your repeated pointing to my quite clearly marked FT Type 800 specifications is mindboggling and to the point Mach 10 is the maximum speed when LOX rocket burn mode is engaged, it is most certainly not my SCRAM cruising speed, and I don't even cruise with the SCRAM as its portrayed as unreliable and prone to flame out.

My own Open Market Niche destroyer class uses an extrapolation of the Sea Shadow design and mostly missile armament. Im saying by the same token as you deny me the use of my ABL you would deny your Arsenal ships existence. Yes the Sea Shadow exists as do missile arms and larger vessels, I stated that. It is you who however who created the ship and weapons system scale combination.

I have never criticised the numbers of your forces only their placement, I never attacked the existence of a single aircraft at your disposal.

I did this because of the communally recognised geography of Haven.

I have felt I justly criticised their placement in using the recognised scene of Haven with the geography shown. That ships that were deployed a week ago should indeed have reached their stations and that the actual path from Ilek Vaad to Yasmarea would place your other reinforcements nowhere near my aircraft’s flight path from Baltic Island I felt simply had to be points made. That was a matter that had to be debated given the Haven map and I would vociferously defend my argument in specific against any. You yourself agreed to this after you said you were referring to an older version of the Haven Map and thought I was referring to "Atlantic Island".

You admitted being wrong to your merit. It was not a concession of actual force numbers but of force positions due to the communal recognised map of Haven and to state it as a force reduction is nothing more than a bare faced lie.

My MASER was never intended to actively kill someone. It was intended to fry missile guidance systems.

On this note when a humans blood temperature reaches 50 C they as a rule die. I would think it not hard to raise blood temperature to this with microwaves and bloods water content. I don't need to so much as set someone on fire with microwaves to actually kill them. This does not even cover cellular rupturing, that effect on neurones or the fact I’m using an 80 megawatt culminated beam (which again is in many a fancy home microwave). That in the terms of actual power given that 1 megawatt day = 86.4 GigaJoules is a great deal.

The fact is it takes 35.2 Gigajoules to completely vaporise all the water in an average human and being an 80 Megawatt day device a total of 6912 Giga joules of power are used by the unit per day.


Of course that person would have to be directly in the beam and quite near the projection system to take its full effect as even with a culminated beam the system looses power due to being radiated energy passing through a retarding medium. Air however is not all that terribly retarding to microwaves. However I do not need to vaporise someone, lethal effect could be gained at much greater range.

Even taking the fact that it is radiated energy into account passing through a retarding medium the microwave weapon in this case does indeed have the brute power to not only heat but even boil human blood at range unless shielded by any conductive surface. That’s surface will discharge electricity as a product of being struck by microwaves. If you are in any fighter aircraft it should be sufficiently hardened against lightening strike and EMP to insure no detrimental effects to the pilot due to that discharge, though I would not personally choose to do fly through a microwave beam of this level of power.

I had no intention of ever using the MASER as a lethal weapon due to range limitation rather a defensive device to fry missile electronics via that enduced electrical discharge.

If you would like to stare at your mobile phone right now we can see an application of microwaves at range. I don't recommend it but you can put some foil in your microwave and see some home brewed lightening.

For me to not to point out these things would be most odd.

As my aircraft carriers have not in fact gone anywhere “in view” as it were I would concede their maximum speed if necessary under the protest that Freethinker qualified it. I would like to point out that generally 12 knots is not important at all to role-play and that with sufficient power it should be possible to move a reasonably hydrodynamic ship of even 400,000 tons at this speed.

As for your statement of expertise self aggrandisement will get you no where in and is nauseating. I am a 3rd year (my final one) in the university of Ulster. I am doing an International Politics and History degree. That has nothing to do with my skills as role-player, the argument above or my justifications. I could be a 12 year old from Calcutta with no formal education at all and I would still if I had access to the knowledge I do have if I posted as I have the right to the same level of respect.

P.S. I not once have called you an Idiot or personally attacked you, merely your arguments. I never called you actually dishonourable I said that if you had deliberately brewed this discontent to escape IC military chastisement I would find it dishonourable.

P.P.S. Without my ABL capacity I would have never sent my air strike as they are the foundation stone of my air combat theory. I would offer you the option to retcon the entire issue however your actions have been truly deplorable and as previously stated this simply will not occur as you sir have injured that rare and elusive beast, my pride beaten my patience to beyond its braking point and laid waste to my tolerance.

P.P.S and yes this is a spurious detail ..its an OOC thread there is no need for OOC tags.



To Edolia

I would wish to point out to you that for all your understandable disdain of these events you could have most easily simply decided the settings limitations and the finite limits of the time period of said setting thus moderating this little side show to non existence.

Non the less I do agree that indeed character based role-play is by far of course the most important element to role-play. This cannot exist however with out a solid setting. Part of that setting is of course technology and its applications, in a conflict based role-play this is near impossible to escape even if the technology in question is the infamous pointy stick.



To Iuhtia
Iuthy I can’t get more down to earth than what is real right now, yes I would have to say “WELCOME TO THE WORLD OF TOMMOROW!” or “THE FUTURE IS NOW” ..but I would feel jaded and evil, oh wait I am evil <<

I would reiterate my above statement to Edolia in reference to role-play.

I cannot reconcile myself to Vaads method of argument and justifications which in some cases are no more than “SHOUTED” statements. I could shout “MICROWAVES CAN’T KILL PEOPLE” all day, it would simply not make it true. He did in a some what muddled fashion debunk that particular statement but it was just an example of why I choose to act as I do.

Indeed I will be ignoring Vaad in relation to this incident and thus this incident in full for his misuse of argument and reason and his abusive “tone”. Please note “ignoring in this incident” as I have yet to find justification for ignoring Vaads existence totally though he almost provoked a mod into doing just that in a far more permanent fashion. He seems ill able to control his temper and indeed unwilling to do so.

There is no “discussion” on IC action to continue over this, I am continuing an OOC debate with Vaad to try and show him the blatant error of his argument.

Note that IV stated he isn't using Grav Ships in this RP as he suspects they aren't MT... he did state that in his original reply a while back.

Anyways, if you are going to ignore this RP, just do it... this arguement has gone on for long enough and frankly I think the whole technology thing is out of hand, it's an opinion, get used to it.

OOC: just to point a few things out, I never stated that your Maser could kill anyone, Midlonia did. I have an issue with it knocking down missles, as stated before.

If you could post a link about the nautilus system , I'd like to see it, I can't find anything on it.

Again, I will point out, I too think that some sort of laser system will deployed in the future and work , I'm just not comfortable allowing someone to arm a fleets of jets with them based on Boeings tests that have never actually engaged a target.

I will point out agian , that in the Free Republic, 2015, there is no Grav-ship. I merely pointed out that I was developing said ship and that one day the Free Republic will have. I was pointing this out to illustrate a technology that I feel does not exist in 2015 Ilek-Vaad and that I would not accept. If you will note , I stated that it would be another 2 RL years before I considered a Grav-Ship possible. There is no Vaadian Grav-Ship, there will not be for some time, all you'll see is development and test threads. It was brought up to point out how how I limit my technology and the level of limitation I believe is responsible.

While I do not believe in extrapolating a theoretical technology to a fully developed, mass deployed operational system,

I do believe in extrapolating larger, fully mass produceable fully deployable technology from an existing technology, like the Sea Shadow and B2. If push came to shove, the Sea Shadw could be deployed in combat operations, it could be mass produced, but it hasn't because the US Navy doesen't feel that it meets all the requirements it should as of yet.

We're rehashing the same argument. My blatantly wrong opinion still hasn't changed, and I am still convinced , more than ever in the incompatability of your opinion.

I think that's the issue, you believe fervently that my opinion on what is acceptable Modern Tech is wrong. Opinions aren't right or wrong, they are simply different. I typed this as Iuthia was posting............eerie.

P.S. when I TYPE IN CAPS, I'm not intending to shout, but to draw attention to what I feel is a particularly salient point. It's not an angry thing.

I also ALWAYS use OOC tags, in the past I have been accused of my OOC statements being IC, even in OOC threads...............mostly by SS and Allanea :P

I would wish to point out to you that for all your understandable disdain of these events you could have most easily simply decided the settings limitations and the finite limits of the time period of said setting thus moderating this little side show to non existence.

Non the less I do agree that indeed character based role-play is by far of course the most important element to role-play. This cannot exist however with out a solid setting. Part of that setting is of course technology and its applications, in a conflict based role-play this is near impossible to escape even if the technology in question is the infamous pointy stick.

I didn't put limits on the war because there wasn't really supposed to be a war. I planned it out as a political RP, and it was one for a while, up until IV and NHSR's governments started going crazy. Let me give you an example of what I'm talking about though in terms of going for the RP, not for the tech: When NHSR sent this small army to attack Yaz City, he toned his FT down to post-moderny tech, not by posting the new stats of his stuff, but by just saying "they're not postmodern." He roleplays his troops as having powered armor, and heavy pulse rifles and all kinds of great futurey stuff, and my troops have your basic insulating full-body suit that doesn't provide that much protection (as much as a Kevlar vest or so). That doesn't really matter, because we didn't go into that.

I also told IV that we would work out some details if it came to be a slug-match between me and him (I don't see what you guys are doing now as anything other than your war [which doesn't seem to be happening]), and as I said, you guys can pick the tech level. The problem that you seem to be having is that you are arguing over what exactly is postmodern tech, which is of course a subjective term. I'm just going to reiterate my suggestion: Agree that it's postmodern. Zepplins can have his lasers, IV can have his suborbital bombers. No one gets any real technological advantage from either of these things. How's that?

Two more things: First, I'm sorry if it seems that I'm being disdainful. I'm not. I appreciate that you guys have taken the time to get involved in "my" RP. I've done the exact same thing that you guys are doing now, arguing about tech. I just think that there's a better way.

Second, I think that you understand each other's position as well as you're going to, and that you aren't going to change each other's minds. Ignore cannons have been fired all around and it's not really necessary to keep going on about this. I would suggest dropping it. Maybe you can come to an agreement on a future RP.

If you're still planning on doing something here, then go ahead and don't let me stop your long posts on masers and tasers and lasers and gazers.

OOC:
I will roleplay what I feel is appropriate to Modern Tech. This whole argument is about WHAT MY OPINION OF MODERN TECH IS.Nothing else. To make matters worse I have a cadre of FUTURE TECH NATIONS that are telling me what Modern Tech is and then posting RL links that support my assertions in the first place.

OOC you have stated over and over and over and over again, that we are not playing in "Modern Tech" [which is around 1980-1997]. At the very least we are "Information Age Tech" [1997-2005] yet you have stated to us repeatedly that we are "Post Modern" or "Near future" and even gave us a specific year, 2015, this, as we can see clearly, is not Modern, or Information by any stretch of the imagination.

Anyway, Doc has toned down his speed, and everything else is mechanically possible

OOC: Midlonia:I'm not even going to have a debate on what RL 'years' comprise any NS 'tech rating' once again it's a purely subjective and speculative matter for which there are no guidelines in stone

Any discussion on this ,will be purely be a matter of opinion, just as any discussion on what technologies will be available in what years in the future.

Edolia: I only deployed my forces in response to NHSR's, even after my deployment , I took no military action. I was still under the impression that it would be a mainly diplomatic RP, as it still is.