NationStates Jolt Archive

This is purely an OOC thread, just for thoughts and opinions. My question of the day is one that has come up and has failed multiple times: the existance of a world, galactic, or international court.

We've all heard both sides before. On one hand it is a great idea, with roleplaying and political potential like few other organizations. On the other, we have the host of nations who won't join or simply won't follow the verdics of other nations. Also, without the involvement of certain nations that have a massive n00b following (AMF, Menel, etc...no offense meant by this), the courts of the past have failed shortly after they passed their first judgement.

Now for the moment of truth. Would anyone still be interested in such an organization, and regardless of your interest level, would you follow a verdic granted that it was reasonable and you had imput in it? Could an international system of law, an organized, documented, and fair court, far greater than any ever seen by the NationStates community, succeed or is it doomed forever to fail?

As great an idea I think it is, I believe that it will fail. If it failed before because of people who wouldn't followed it, I can gaurantee there are still people around and possibly even more who will think this way.

Honestly, what I would do ic (and this is going to sound shamelessly cynical) would be to attempt to use it against any enemies of mine who could be considered war criminals while never allowing it to try TRD citizens. Naturally, I would never sign anything recognizing its authority generally.

Now, from a strictly OOC point of view, I think the attempt of some nations to establish an international court makes an interesting story. Whether it is ultimately successful or not isn't really the point. That it would make for an interesting roleplay is.

Well TRD, thats why there would be many members on this court, so as to stay away from biased decisions. If enough people wanted to try and bring this thing to life, I would love to help.

This response is purely OOC.

I believe a global judicial system would be fantastic in providing a verdict with little bias, it would fail on a large scale in the real world, maybe it'd work in NationStates, but not the outside world.

For example, say the United States had some serial killer that was caught, and we shipped them out to a country that doesn't use the death penalty (ex. Canada). Although using Canada's judicial system to provide a fairer verdict, if the people of the United States strongly wished for the death penalty, Canada could not provide it, causing big problems. Even if we were to use the US' judicial practices, the chances that the return of a verdict that the US would want is greatly decreased because of Canada's belief.

Time may change though, and this may be able to be put into action, it might not happen in alot of our lifetimes.

It could be used if two parties need to solve a dispute and both agree to accept the resoluton of the courts. If both parties agree to follow it there cant be any problems.

Besides a smaller court is better. Think what would happen if the UN had to make a decision. It would take forever.

maybe it'd work in NationStates.

That's what I'm talking about.

Now, from a strictly OOC point of view, I think the attempt of some nations to establish an international court makes an interesting story. Whether it is ultimately successful or not isn't really the point. That it would make for an interesting roleplay is.

I'm not looking for a roleplay. I have many of those. I'm looking for an organization that will dictate international law...lol...through roleplay now that I think about it. However I don't want it to be one roleplay about the establishment of it. Think of all the wars that are constantly going on in the Internation Incidents forum. There must be criminals in such things. Think of all the trade occuring in NS. Why not regulate it? Why not prevent corruption? There are endless possibilites.

As great an idea I think it is, I believe that it will fail. If it failed before because of people who wouldn't followed it, I can gaurantee there are still people around and possibly even more who will think this way.

There are two types of people who don't "follow it." There are those who won't recognize it, and basically ignore its existance. Then there are those who follow it up until a judgement gets passed that doesn't go their way. One group can't be changed, another can. Which are you referring to?

It could be used if two parties need to solve a dispute and both agree to accept the resoluton of the courts. If both parties agree to follow it

I enjoy the rare hint of optimism in a thread such as this.

I am referring to those who choose to ignore it outright. But now that I think about it, if it will be RP to solve RP problems, then It should really be fine. Anyone who will get involved in it (Whether it be with the court itself or their actions) should be able to handle what happens to them.

I am referring to those who choose to ignore it outright. But now that I think about it, if it will be RP to solve RP problems, then It should really be fine. Anyone who will get involved in it (Whether it be with the court itself or their actions) should be able to handle what happens to them.

My idea is to form a court with different sectors for different types of law. Running on both the personal and national level, it will be made up of judges and lawyers, each from different nations. The court would be able to solve pre-existing problems (who's at fault for what in a war, who has copyright laws on a product, who recieves the spoils after a massive victory, who is to blame for a crime against humanity, etc.) or problems created simply for the court to solve, or to test the court itself. (Two nations decide to create an international incident in a RP, roleplay the tensions, and ask the court to step it.)

It would not, however, go around telling nations or people how to live their lives or run their business. If a nation came to the court, asking for help or assistance, then the court would look into it. It would be completely voluntary.

Near as I can tell, these things apply to only those nations who agree to them, make up the court. Those who didn't agree, would be outside of the court or in the court's disfavor. Essentially then, what you have is just another alliance, just centered around the concept of law. I don't think it'll work in any other way; even the UN judicial rulings and such in real life are basically just a loose alliance, and one that can't and doesn't enforce justice consistently due to the international, democratic corrupt nature of these kinds of things.

Near as I can tell, these things apply to only those nations who agree to them, make up the court. Those who didn't agree, would be outside of the court or in the court's disfavor. Essentially then, what you have is just another alliance, just centered around the concept of law. I don't think it'll work in any other way; even the UN judicial rulings and such in real life are basically just a loose alliance, and one that can't and doesn't enforce justice consistently due to the international, democratic corrupt nature of these kinds of things.

Hmm...I'd hope that every nation that asked for help would not be automatically entered into the court, hense the "alliance" tie in. Also, this isn't going to be something such as "hey...I want to be a judge...that'd be cool!" There will be a process for selecting nations. I also hope that his court would not turn into an enormous system where passing a ruling takes a hundred votes for a majority. No, there would be a few dozen nations involved, perhaps a few more, that act in the interest of everyone. I'm hoping to get lawyers and judges from all political affiliations as well, so to balance out bias.

I would participate in an international court, if there was one.

OOC:

Individuals can be punished since the state wields more power than the individual. But, how to punish an entire nation? Ultimately, it comes down to degrees of force. The USA had to expend (and still is expending) a lot of force to bring Iraq to heel. And the outcome of that is still uncertain.

A court, as pointed out earlier, only works if the people who participate agree to be bound by the decision. So, while an individual canl be punished if they do not obey the court, a nation would have to be punished by a larger, more powerful nation or group of nations that are willing to use whatever force necessary to uphold the ruling of the court.

Or, if everyone were to disarm and give all their weapons to one ageed upon controlling force, then that might work as well. But who will give up their guns?

Hmm...the idea itself sounds very intresting, and I'd like to see how it goes/take part in it...It would have been nice to have one a bit earlier for teh RP I'm curently running right now.

I rather like the idea. It would be fun to roleplay an International Court justice. Keep me posted.

Lazy Kriegorgrad that won't log out OOC: This seems like an excellent idea, I'd like to be one of those shit-stirrers in the corner that defies everything the Court says. By the way, will this be more of a "senate" than a court? Because I'm enticed by the image of hundreds of diplomats squabbling in one room.

Here's my take on this, in reading ...

Cooperation is what's needed for anything like this to work - that's obvious. What concerns me is the whole 'sovereign rights' issues that could get called into play. This is why when Lavenrunz set up her version of such a thing, I was interested in how folks saw it playing out, and participated in the thread on it on account of those concerns.

THAT version turned out as something I could deal with, which was basically, acting as mediators and in situations where two mor more groups came into conflict, offering services, and then IF those involved agreed, acting as judges for the outcome where negotiations stalled or the like.

Bear with me - still half asleep I swear, even at 1pm. I'm probably rambling again.

Anyways ... ic'ly I can guarantee the Dominion (and I know I'm not alone in this) recognizes no 'international law' or the like, and would not look kindly on anyone trying to force that sort o' bs with us. Our borders, our laws, our business - keep out unless invited sort of deal.

Any such 'international court' or the like would be effective only within the boundaries of those who recognized it - as with any group. What concerns me that way I suppose is 'member' nations bringing in 'non-members' for judgement and the arguments that could come of that. In that deal of Lavenrunz's, there were provisions set up to deal with it, and it all seemed to work, but damned if it wasn't one hell of an argument getting to that point.

Then you get into the complexities of even if you're recognized, how to you enforce judgements, and how do you do it fairly and maintain impartiality? How do you keep favoritism and the toady mindset from creeping into it and creating an imbalance?

The other problem that you'll likely run into is posting and punctuality in that, just from seeing how such things have gone in the past. It's a harsh reality that not all people will be available at all times. So while dividing up duties and all looks nice and could theoretically work well, you're bound to run into 'well we're waiting for so and so to post something so ...' situations more often than not.

Now, bear in mind, none of this is meant to discourage any of this. I too think it could be a fun rp, and a fun concept to try - I'm just pointing out some of the problems that could come up with it. Folks like myself ic'ly will not react well to some outside group thinking they can dictate to us what we can and can't do. For myself, concerning trade and all, I've 2 alliances where that all goes rather well, I've got KIST which is an all trade alliance, no other nasty complications, I've got deals on the side and proper with individual nations and such and ... well, we'd not take kindly some group we're not involved with (nor indeed, ic'ly likely would be inclined to join given the intents) telling us what's what.

Anyways ... hope some of that made some sense in there somewhere. I dunno. Bottom line I suppose is do it, have fun with it, don't expect everyone to either be invovled/accepting of it or to like it even if they recognize it which could turn up some interesting rp in and of itself there, but ... yeah. I'ma stop yapping and go get lunch now. *grins*

Lazy Kriegorgrad that won't log out OOC: This seems like an excellent idea, I'd like to be one of those shit-stirrers in the corner that defies everything the Court says. By the way, will this be more of a "senate" than a court? Because I'm enticed by the image of hundreds of diplomats squabbling in one room.

Ok man...don't take this personally. I'm not trying to put you down here.

1. There would not be shit-stirrers. This court would not seek to impose sanctions on nations or override their sovereignty. This court would act as an arbitrator which assists nations in international struggles. (Economic, military, criminal, etc.)

2. It will be a court, with lawyers and judges, or a panel of justices, or whatever the individual situation calls for. Unlike you, I hate the idea of an enormous senate in everything other than star wars...lol. Nothing would ever get done or accomplished that way. The purpose of the court would be to assist nations in international conflicts of all sorts. If the nations were able to settle their conflicts easier or quicker than the court...what would the point of the court be?

Here's my take on this, in reading ...

Cooperation is what's needed for anything like this to work - that's obvious. What concerns me is the whole 'sovereign rights' issues that could get called into play. This is why when Lavenrunz set up her version of such a thing, I was interested in how folks saw it playing out, and participated in the thread on it on account of those concerns.

Is Lavenrunz's court still "alive?"

THAT version turned out as something I could deal with, which was basically, acting as mediators and in situations where two mor more groups came into conflict, offering services, and then IF those involved agreed, acting as judges for the outcome where negotiations stalled or the like.

That would be my vision as well. I see the court as an arbitrator...not an alliance which creates policies and enforces sanctions. I wouldn't stand for that either.

Bear with me - still half asleep I swear, even at 1pm. I'm probably rambling again.

Anyways ... ic'ly I can guarantee the Dominion (and I know I'm not alone in this) recognizes no 'international law' or the like, and would not look kindly on anyone trying to force that sort o' bs with us. Our borders, our laws, our business - keep out unless invited sort of deal.

The court would only bring international law into play when the situation arises. If you have a conflict with another nation and you can play diplomat effectively enough...then you personally have no need for this court. However, if you were to have a conflict that you couldn't solve easily...and didn't want to be like certain people who just ignore things they can't fix...you could come to the court and have them help you and your opposition reach a conclusion.

Any such 'international court' or the like would be effective only within the boundaries of those who recognized it - as with any group. What concerns me that way I suppose is 'member' nations bringing in 'non-members' for judgement and the arguments that could come of that. In that deal of Lavenrunz's, there were provisions set up to deal with it, and it all seemed to work, but damned if it wasn't one hell of an argument getting to that point.

Naturally only those who recognize it will accept it...especially with the abundance of "ignore" throughout NationStates. Once again I am interested in contacting Lavenrunz to see how she dealt with such a situation. I have my own ideas, but I don't want to set policy all by myself. I'd rather set it with a group of others to try and avoid bias.

Then you get into the complexities of even if you're recognized, how to you enforce judgements, and how do you do it fairly and maintain impartiality? How do you keep favoritism and the toady mindset from creeping into it and creating an imbalance?

Obviously everyone with an interest in the current case would be excluded from the decisions...at least from being judges. Lawyers would be allowed to be partial to whoever they were representing...if lawyers are necessary. You keep favoritism out by making the court not a group of friends but a group of people who have a strong interest and desire in helping solve disputes. You bring in people of all different beliefs...different viewpoints. It would keep it from a liberal stance...or a conservative one...or a capitalist one...or a communist one...or etc. As for enforcing judgements, hopefully those instances would be few and far in between. It is another thing that I would hope to establish a policy for with others.

The other problem that you'll likely run into is posting and punctuality in that, just from seeing how such things have gone in the past. It's a harsh reality that not all people will be available at all times. So while dividing up duties and all looks nice and could theoretically work well, you're bound to run into 'well we're waiting for so and so to post something so ...' situations more often than not.

Well that's the nature of all internet-based games. We would both divide up duties but also divide up cases. Each case will run as an individual RP.

Now, bear in mind, none of this is meant to discourage any of this. I too think it could be a fun rp, and a fun concept to try - I'm just pointing out some of the problems that could come up with it. Folks like myself ic'ly will not react well to some outside group thinking they can dictate to us what we can and can't do. For myself, concerning trade and all, I've 2 alliances where that all goes rather well, I've got KIST which is an all trade alliance, no other nasty complications, I've got deals on the side and proper with individual nations and such and ... well, we'd not take kindly some group we're not involved with (nor indeed, ic'ly likely would be inclined to join given the intents) telling us what's what.

Once again, the intentions of the court would not be to enforce sanctions but to settle disputes of varying nature. It would not be tied in with any nation, unlike organizations like the UN. Also, while I'm not simply asking this to bribe you, would you have any interest in such an organization...now that I hopefully answered some questions you or anyone else had. You managed this long reply after all.

Anyways ... hope some of that made some sense in there somewhere. I dunno. Bottom line I suppose is do it, have fun with it, don't expect everyone to either be invovled/accepting of it or to like it even if they recognize it which could turn up some interesting rp in and of itself there, but ... yeah. I'ma stop yapping and go get lunch now. *grins*

Get lunch? I thought it was 1 pm. Geez...by 11:30 I'm normally starving...lol

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I'd participate in an international court if there was one. It has a lot of RP potential.

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Trying to get some replies to my replies.

I would like to see an actual working international court in NS myself, Partially because the UN on NS, everyone ignores and pays no attention to. With this international court, certain nations could outlaw unwanted practicies of other countries or even decide on the results of nuking(although this method of warfare his highly disliked in NS), and could therefore punish countries that go overboard with nuking, WMDs, terrorism, and such. I would hope that we could make a UN that is actually listened to on NS, to bring in some factor of realism. However, this is just my opinion on this matter, and may not be acknowledged.

I believe that such a court can not succeed. Too many countries would ignore judgments that go against them.

I would like to see an actual working international court in NS myself, Partially because the UN on NS, everyone ignores and pays no attention to. With this international court, certain nations could outlaw unwanted practicies of other countries or even decide on the results of nuking(although this method of warfare his highly disliked in NS), and could therefore punish countries that go overboard with nuking, WMDs, terrorism, and such. I would hope that we could make a UN that is actually listened to on NS, to bring in some factor of realism. However, this is just my opinion on this matter, and may not be acknowledged.
I believe that such a court can not succeed. Too many countries would ignore judgments that go against them.

Please read the previous posts, for I'm tired of repeating myself. This court will not be a UN-like organization. This court will not create and impose sanctions on others. This court will not be biased, will not have a national affiliation, and will not have a "personal agenda" that it wishes to pursue. It will be a mediator of conflicts and international incidents that cannot be settled by diplomacy on a nation-to-nation basis. Nations would bring their problems to the court, the court would not go looking for problems to solve.

Ok man...don't take this personally. I'm not trying to put you down here.

1. There would not be shit-stirrers. This court would not seek to impose sanctions on nations or override their sovereignty. This court would act as an arbitrator which assists nations in international struggles. (Economic, military, criminal, etc.)

2. It will be a court, with lawyers and judges, or a panel of justices, or whatever the individual situation calls for. Unlike you, I hate the idea of an enormous senate in everything other than star wars...lol. Nothing would ever get done or accomplished that way. The purpose of the court would be to assist nations in international conflicts of all sorts. If the nations were able to settle their conflicts easier or quicker than the court...what would the point of the court be?


OOC: Sorry, that was Kriegorgrad posting, I misundestood, I thought this was a senate and your second point about "nothing would get done" is exactly what I like, I love to be able to (jovially) shit stir while people are trying to sought out serious issues, I could imagine my diplomat sending an aide to an AMF diplomat saying, "did you know that the TIOR diplomat thinks that Damien looks as intimidating as a little girl?" and then I'd say to TIOR, "Damien wants president Sergei's head! I suggest you charge to war" and it would all be great fun, of course I'd be found out, hanged and quartered but hey, it was fun while it lasted!

I apologise for mucking up your thread a bit, sorry and btw, I actually based the idea of a senate ON what I saw in star wars, I liked all the bickering from all the alien diplomats.

Is Lavenrunz's court still "alive?"

You know, you'd probably have to ask. It was a large group of nations that were in on the creation, including Knootoss and a ton of others. And, after much searching .... HERE (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=306851) is the thread where things got -mostly- hammered out. And here (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=314348) is the thread that followed it up, though I can't see that much got done I think ... if I remember, there was transition probs at the time and such. I think. *ponders* Anyways - there's some ref, and there's some of the folks who would better know what is or isn't going on with it, since I've kind of lost the flow over the past while, and admittedly, been busy with my own plots and schemes and ... I mean, er ... play.

That would be my vision as well. I see the court as an arbitrator...not an alliance which creates policies and enforces sanctions. I wouldn't stand for that either.

Ah - good to know, at least from our ic standpoint. *grins* You know how touchy some of us can be about that sort of thing.

The court would only bring international law into play when the situation arises. If you have a conflict with another nation and you can play diplomat effectively enough...then you personally have no need for this court. However, if you were to have a conflict that you couldn't solve easily...and didn't want to be like certain people who just ignore things they can't fix...you could come to the court and have them help you and your opposition reach a conclusion.

Indeed. Some of us really do try to keep out of conflicts legitimately that way. Hell, I've acted as a mediator for groups that were having a hard time coming to an agreement before, and I know how touchy it can be. *waves at Melkor bwahaha* As I noted with the Lavenrunz bit, that was the main intent - to help work out kinks folks couldn't work out on their own, which as we all know can sometimes be no one side's fault perse.

Naturally only those who recognize it will accept it...especially with the abundance of "ignore" throughout NationStates. Once again I am interested in contacting Lavenrunz to see how she dealt with such a situation. I have my own ideas, but I don't want to set policy all by myself. I'd rather set it with a group of others to try and avoid bias.

I'd go for it - she usually has a pretty damn good head for diplomacy and details and all, and she's fun to rp with as well. From what I've seen, we've a huge pool of varied views and interests that could help shape this sort of thing into an interesting rp tool, depending on how it goes.

Obviously everyone with an interest in the current case would be excluded from the decisions...at least from being judges. Lawyers would be allowed to be partial to whoever they were representing...if lawyers are necessary. You keep favoritism out by making the court not a group of friends but a group of people who have a strong interest and desire in helping solve disputes. You bring in people of all different beliefs...different viewpoints. It would keep it from a liberal stance...or a conservative one...or a capitalist one...or a communist one...or etc. As for enforcing judgements, hopefully those instances would be few and far in between. It is another thing that I would hope to establish a policy for with others.

I'd think then, so long as care was taken who got assigned or volunteered or what have you to which, it could possibly work out. I do remember one issue that came up in the Lavenrunz conference - security forces for the arbitration teams and all. There were vastly differing opinions as to how that could or should be handled - which also was related to the 'enforcing judgements in case of ' stuff.

Once again, the intentions of the court would not be to enforce sanctions but to settle disputes of varying nature. It would not be tied in with any nation, unlike organizations like the UN. Also, while I'm not simply asking this to bribe you, would you have any interest in such an organization...now that I hopefully answered some questions you or anyone else had. You managed this long reply after all.

Truth, as with anything, it all depends on what all I have going on at any one point and the biggest thing - how it all gets organized. It would have to be something that didn't conflict with my current alliance obligations and charters, and something I could ic'ly approve of. Ooc'ly, I've got no real complaints - regardless, sounds like it could be an interesting rp. I know the Lavenrunz one got crazy a time or two (not to mention sidetracked with some of these well-meaning but insane folks' ideas - no insult intended, peeps).

So, are we going to get this thing rolling? How's about Steel Butterfly sets up a new thread with the first post being a list of the members of the court?

So, are we going to get this thing rolling? How's about Steel Butterfly sets up a new thread with the first post being a list of the members of the court?

When it "gets rolling" I will set up an off-site forum for better managing. The court will be a mix of IC and OOC, with character discussion existing along side "real discussion"...but most likely on different parts of the board. The board will be a "headquarters" of sorts and also a reference where OOC meetings and the like will take place. When a case is given to us, it will be given both IC by the characters and OOC by the actual "nations" involved. The OOC stuff will be handled on the boards, while the IC stuff will be in threads.