NationStates Jolt Archive

I'm trying to configure my military like ancient Sparta's (boys trained from age 7, then live in barracks from 18-30, then live at home and retire at 60). I know that's unrealistic (actually not, because they did it, but I doubt most NS people would accept it), and I was wondering how I'd go about figuring the percentage of my population made up by various age groups so that I could figure out something believable. If anyone has any advice, I'd really appreciate it.

The reason all free men of Sparta could be in the armed services was because they controlled a large slave population. A huge chunk of your population (well over half) would have to be figured in as slaves for this to be realistic, on NS or in ancient Sparta

Yeah, that's why I'm thinking maybe just a few percent of my male population. Meh, it would probably just be easier to do it the normal way.

Yeah, that's why I'm thinking maybe just a few percent of my male population. Meh, it would probably just be easier to do it the normal way.

No no no. Take the time and figure it out. I think your idea is a cool one. Don't settle for the norm.

thanks for the encouragement.

I figured that half my population (2.5 million people) were male, and then I arbitraily put 18 percent of them into the army, so it's 450,000 troops (almost twice the 5% percent rule). Is that realistic?

I figured that half my population (2.5 million people) were male, and then I arbitraily put 18 percent of them into the army, so it's 450,000 troops (almost twice the 5% percent rule). Is that realistic?Eighteen percent is almost four times 5 percent, which is in most cases a godmode. I'm not sure what percentage you could have with a system like that, but I think it goes down as the economy becomes more complex and advanced (ancient Sparta to modern).

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ has some relevent information.

I misread the quote, so my first sentence is invalid. Sorry!

Eighteen percent is almost four times 5 percent, which is in most cases a godmode. I'm not sure what percentage you could have with a system like that, but I think it goes down as the economy becomes more complex and advanced (ancient Sparta to modern).

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/ has some relevent information.

Or, Spartan Messinia, you can ignore stat-whores and RP how you want to with people who accept your nation.

I'd agree with SB there about ignoring stat-whores (e.g. Sann has a far higher number of ships in their fleets than they should, because they're nomads).

Go for the militaristic state! After all, Im doing the same thing with New Lakedaimon (New Sparta) in future tech rp.

(Most of the poplace helots, some the merchant class, most men warriors).

Or, Spartan Messinia, you can ignore stat-whores and RP how you want to with people who accept your nation.1) Since when is realism bad?
2) There are some great RPers who happen to be godmoders (I'm not going to list names).
3) Anyone can godmode if s/he want to.
Sann has a far higher number of ships in their fleets than they should, because they're nomadsIf they're nomads, maybe it's not too much. It's not about conforming to real-life or knowing lots of numbers, but being plausible. So-called "stat-whores" are just people who play NS differently, and are not necessarily connected with 'realism freaks'. You could have a godmoder who posts lots of statistics, or a realism freak who doesn't actually mention many numbers.

1) Since when is realism bad?
2) There are some great RPers who happen to be godmoders (I'm not going to list names).
3) Anyone can godmode if s/he want to.

1) When it takes over the plot of the story. Instead of writing you get numbers. Instead of character development you get math facts.
2) That term means something different to each person who says it and each person it applies to...especially on nationstates where its as common as a white man in a KKK meeting.
3) Can't disagree there...but there was no point to you or I saying it...

1) When it takes over the plot of the story. Instead of writing you get numbers. Instead of character development you get math facts.What if there is no real story? NS wasn't originally intended as an RP site, and not everyone uses it that way.
2) That term means something different to each person who says it and each person it applies to...especially on nationstates where its as common as a white man in a KKK meeting.Yeah...By one of the definitions in the godmoding thread ("having übertech"), I think my point stands, though.
3) Can't disagree there...but there was no point to you or I saying it...I had a literalism attack. :o

Sparta was usually very limited in its power. The reason why it had such a militaristic culture was because if it didn't the helots would quite easily revolt and throw them down. Hence the Spartan army never left home in any amount of large numbers, because the helots would have toppled them. If you want to play a Spartan-style state realistically you will be pretty limited in how you can deploy troops.

I don't have a problem with realists, just when stats interfere with how a person wants to RP their nation.

And Liang is right about that point - the Helots vastly outnumbered the Spartans, and Sparta was not a walled city either - so a large number of troops were required to remain for its defence.

Yeah...By one of the definitions in the godmoding thread ("having übertech"), I think my point stands, though.

Yah, provided you saw the relevant point in half so that's what it says.

3) Having übertech, armies that are too large, etc.

That comma wasn't there in the officially approved version by Kits and has just been edited out. 'Having ubertech armies that are too large' is the crime, not 'having ubertech.' You're fine to have your own policy on what you're prepared to RP with and what you're not, just quit trying to shove it down everyone else's throat.

Sparta was usually very limited in its power. The reason why it had such a militaristic culture was because if it didn't the helots would quite easily revolt and throw them down. Hence the Spartan army never left home in any amount of large numbers, because the helots would have toppled them. If you want to play a Spartan-style state realistically you will be pretty limited in how you can deploy troops.

"Sparta does not ask how many, just where they are"
~Spartan Proverb.

True. But the reason behind the Spartan troops never leaving in great numbers was because they were such elite troops.

I think you should let him RP however the damn hell he wants and leave him alone, we should encourage, not discourage and tell people what to do, and what is "Right or Wrong". We're hear to RP events, not argue over stat-"wanks".

But just to help Spartan Messinia, just remember, with 18% of the population in the army, there will be side-effects to the way your society works, and behaves, and as a side note, I'd soon accept the idea of such a nation.

Just remember, NS ins't a game of numbers, it's about how your stories [and subsequently your characters] work in the world you create for them.

Such fretting over numbers...

Look, if 18% of your pop is in the military, and 50% of your pop is slave labor, you will certainly have some major problems.

But, if you answer issues with your RP in mind (probably average Econ, low on the other two), and actually Role-play the catestrophic downsides you'll be dealing with, then I would have no problems with this. It's a neat idea, really.

Of course, if you start busting out major technological advances, or some really amazing artwork, I'll start to wonder.

Seems like nobody noticed that he said "18%" of the MALE population, making it a 9% total. It's still pretty high, but nothing like the 4 times the norm or whatever it is that everyone's freaking out about.

But--didn't the Spartan women fight just as well as the men? Why not just make it a flat 9%?

The Spartan women were as athletically capable as the men, but did not go to war. Largely due to the fact that Equals (warriors) had to come from a cetain pool of families, and once a family was wiped out it could not be replaced - the women of Sparta were respected and given much more freedom than those of other states (e.g. Athens) but were expected to spend their time giving birth and raising children.

In one incident when the Spartan army was away for so long that there was a risk of the Spartan population largely dying out (as no births, warriors dying elsewhere) a contingent of soldiers was ordered back with the express mission of impregnating every virgin of child-bearing age.

This has basically been a long post that says "no, the Spartan women did not fight" ;)


Oh, and I think he was probably referring to 18% of the male Spartan population, which would only be 4.5% of the whole, assuming a 50% helot/merchant class.


Damnit...I'm turning into a stat whore. Pity the poor nomad.

It actually is nine percent. It's 18% of the males, so 9% of the whole. And it hasn't actually been implemented yet, I was just wanting to make sure I wouldn't get called a godmodder or anything. And I'm RPing as a Sparta where the Messinians (Helots) like the Spartans, because they joined peacefully for mutual benefit. Thought of that because I don't like slavery, RL or NS. So the revolt won't really happen, though I do have a Leninist-Maoist revolutionary group in the remote regions calling themselves the Helots (did anyone read any of the Falkenberg's Legion books? based on those Helots)

Yah, provided you saw the relevant point in half so that's what it says.It's a matter of interpretation made necessary by the lack of a conjunction, not twisting what I read to fit my ideas.
That comma wasn't there in the officially approved version by Kits and has just been edited out.'Kay.
just quit trying to shove it down everyone else's throat.I have specifically said that my opinions are not the rules and that no one has to listen to me. I'll say it here: I can't stop him from doing what he wants, and I'm not even trying to; I'm encouraging him to do what I think would be best. No one has to listen to me.
Seems like nobody noticed that he said "18%" of the MALE population, making it a 9% total.Aaah, two big mistakes in one day! Sorry, Spartan Messinia!