NationStates Jolt Archive

How long should it be realistically before your nation begins making weapons?

What I mean is, when is it usually acceptable, and not seen as godmodding for your nation to start making modern Tanks, machine gun, fighter jets, missiles and etc?

By this I mean, how many NS years (RL days) should it be before your nation is capable of doing this?

I know economy has something to do with it too.

NationStates does not simulate this sort of thing directly, so this is strictly a roleplay matter.

iMove http://www.forums.jolt.co.uk/images/icons/icon2.gif "NationStates".

--The Modified Democratic States of Cogitation

An NS year is not a real-life day. And the answer is 'whenever you like.' There's no fixed times or rules about this sort of thing, as long as it's reasonable given your backstory and you don't arbitarily declare your products superior to everyone else's.

Thanks for answering. :)

So what is a NS day in RL?

Not fixed. The most reasonable I've heard is day=month, but a lot of people I know simply stick with fluid time, so you can make time pass at whatever rate you like as long as it's not for wanky purposes like rebuilding a destroyed fleet in a day.

Cool.

Thanks!

yeah. Alot of people will call you a gomoder if you start building at once, but it just shows how stupid alot of people are, since IRL nations with less than 5M pop build weapons.

I agree. Feasibly any small nation can design its own hand held weapons. I'd put a cap of 15 million on armoured vehicles, and 40 million on jets...but that's just a real-world view and doesn't correspond to different people's RP standards.

I see what you mean.

It's just basically to get an estimate of realism.

The of course it goes into how many Jets and Tanks would be made in a year, and that would depend on how many factories, how much man and woman power within the building force and etc.

I agree. Feasibly any small nation can design its own hand held weapons. I'd put a cap of 15 million on armoured vehicles, and 40 million on jets...but that's just a real-world view and doesn't correspond to different people's RP standards.
by your own standards Sweden cannot build jet fighters; if yours is a 'real-world view', explain the existence of the Grippen (and previous Saab jets), please.

I see what you mean.

It's just basically to get an estimate of realism.

The of course it goes into how many Jets and Tanks would be made in a year, and that would depend on how many factories, how much man and woman power within the building force and etc.
technological and economical might is a far more important factor than population.

Not to mention that population-based limits basically give an arbitary advantage to people who found the site first, which is unfair. While I'd generally not recommend rolling out world-beating technology the minute you arrive, as long as you have a reasonable background-related reason to have the technology and you RP it fairly, you can have it, be it jets, tanks, nukes, giant flying battleships or whatever.

Stianlaand has a population of 8 million, and my largest industry is Uranium Mining. Is it realistic if I say that I have developed nuclear weapons?

I always like it when newbs ask these questions before going right into it. It gives me hope for the next generation of nations.

I believe you should start producing right away, however, only produce what you are economically capable of doing. Your productive output should match the size of your workforce and the economy.

OOC:

I would humbly suggest that much larger items (such as a battlehip or whatever tech level equivalent you want) be harder to make in terms of resources and time. In other words, smaller and less complex items would strike me as more "plausible" to start with at first.

Besides, a navy doesn't just have battleships. I mean, you don't see the Star Wars Empire waltzing about with a zillion death stars. They had only one definite operational one (I know they had a prototype at the secret research center and 2 unfinished ones off Corsucant) but they had thousands of star destroyers. I hope you can see where I'm going with this analogy.

If you RP a nuclear weapons technology thread, you can usually get it early. Usually, a nation should not have nuclear technology (this does NOT include launch vehicles) until around 500 million population.

Using nuclear weapons indescriminantly, by the way, is a wonderful way to get permabranded a n00b.

As to weapons - if one of your major industries is Arms Manufacturing, then obviously you get to make weapons. If you have Uranium mining - that is mostly meaningless. You have to purify and enrich uranium to get it to weapons grade, and this is not an easy task. All mining gives you is a quantity of raw materials.

It is done immediately, but proportionally, and beginning with defense-centered objects.

I.E. You *could* have jet fighters immediately, but you wouldn't have very many at all. The amount increases proportionally with nation population. Unless the spirit of Erich Hartmann flies each and every one, you're dead when it comes time to use them and you fight with a titanic power.

Additionally, large bombers are generally not for smaller nations, their needs are fufilled by fighters hauling bombs.

Furthermore, your nation has to have heavy industry to produce its own fighters: My nation specializes in automobile production, and I go with it: My current fighters are the C-2 "Quetzal" ("feathered") light fighter (comprable to the Northrop F-5 or the Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG 21) and the C-3 "Ehecatl" ("wind") medium fighter, comprable to the McDonnell-Douglas F-4 Phantom. Neither is cutting-edge (both date from the Vietnam era, surviving off electronic upgrades).

I equate this to Sweden, which has its own heavy industries (Saab-Scania produces jets, and many of their jet engines are Volvo Flygmotors).

It's unrealistic for an enviromental paradise which keeps everything absolutely sacred to mass-produce much of anything. They have to buy equipment from others. Which isn't bad, there are some screaming deals out there.

Finally, smaller nations are generally NOT on the cutting-edge of technology unless they work together to mass-produce advanced fighters: so they shouldn't start out with masses of F-22 Raptors. I'm not saying they can't have prototypes (they can design all they want), but I'm saying it's unrealistic for a nation of 15 million to blow away its entire military budget to produce F-22 Raptors.

That's only for the air force. Armies and navies should be normal, but smaller. Again, you will have to buy a lot of crap if you lack large industrial complexes. Focus on defense instead of offense: you should probably buy anti-submarine destroyers or missile cruisers instead of submarines.

You can have an aircraft carrier, but there goes the entire budget for the rest of the Navy.

Also, tiny countries don't have nuclear missiles. Repeat that. YOU DON'T HAVE ICBMS. EVEN IF YOU BUY A BLACK-MARKET SPECIAL FOMER-USSR NUKE, YOU HAVE NO WAY TO GET IT TO THE TARGET BECAUSE YOU LACK A HEAVY BOMBER. AND EVEN IF YOU HAD ONE, IT WOULD BE SHOT DOWN BECAUSE IT IS OBSOLETE.

That sums it all up.

Speaking form a modern tech perspective:

Generally after three months of founding. Small arms can begin after a few weeks, but some of the most expensive high-tech systems (4th Gen. fighters, [super]carriers, SDI), may come into play after more than half a year of existence.

WMDs are only suitcases until you're 1 month old. By one year of age, you should have a good old arsenal of 1000+. Unless you're like me, RP some section of an RL country and get all their nukes and industrial capacity.

Remember folks, you can't play warmonger if you're anarchist, pacifist or a bunch of dopeheaded deadbeat stoners.

I will repeat: all tech-related questions relate soley to the player's ability to RP said tech fairly, not to when they found the site. Forcing players to wait arbitary lengths of time before allowing them to RP certain situations is exactly the kind of newbie-hating that puts a lot of good roleplayers off NS.

More to the point, older nations enforcing timeframes for... Well, stuff, are basically arrogant retards enforcing arbitrary superiority in order to look bigger, better, badder etc..

Nobody can decide what happens in your nation, what it is, what it has, etc., except you.

Of course, if you go RAWR, I BEAT YOU ALL, you may happen to be ignored by the vast majority of players, and that brings up the most important point.

NS roleplaying is consentual.

Going 'My $madeup_shipstats are better than your $madeup_shipstats' simply wont work, because you cannot enforce it. Hence, rather than trying to be OMG BETTER, one ought to try to be OMG FAIR.

Since, NS being a game, it ought to be fun, rather than a struggle, no?

And, amusingly enough, if you have achived ooc consent, the whole problem of arbitrary timeframes, bitching about 'godmodes' etc. suddenly isn't a problem anymore, since the problem doesn't exist to begin with.

~ DA, with his shiny evil UN puppet

And remember, there is more to RP than war.

technological and economical might is a far more important factor than population.

That is a good thing to take into account. I think it's great how you have all been helpful here.

I think that populations are not all that important to the development, if we look at the UK, they have a 60 million population, have a navy, army jets, tanks etc, same with Israel, although I'm not sure on their population.

So I suppose Economy has to be good, and having an arms industry and automotive industry to build weapons too.

On the subject of having weapons very soon, I have noticed some cracking deals regarding weapons in the storefronts on the forum, if I get good deals, would it be seen as godmodding to then say you have them in your arsenal?

Also, tiny countries don't have nuclear missiles. Repeat that. YOU DON'T HAVE ICBMS. EVEN IF YOU BUY A BLACK-MARKET SPECIAL FOMER-USSR NUKE, YOU HAVE NO WAY TO GET IT TO THE TARGET BECAUSE YOU LACK A HEAVY BOMBER. AND EVEN IF YOU HAD ONE, IT WOULD BE SHOT DOWN BECAUSE IT IS OBSOLETE.

That sums it all up.

So go tell that to North Korea and the missile that was found fired from them in alaska or where ever that is close to America. They're a starving economy molested nation that has missiles that can fire that far.... So once more, why should nations so small be limited?

There are no rules to a free form RP site, I didnt sign anything to say I would limit my RP to what my population size is. If the nation in question can RP their storyline quite well then it's their choice if they have nuclear weapons or not. We do not rule other people's nations.

They have the choice to play this game how they want. Not how we want them too. So in answer I'd say, just start RPing the development of stuff when ever you feel it is the right time. It's your nation, your development so it's entirely your say.

As for time, fluid time is much easier by far than other time frames. For instance, it could take me a day to post a troop movement. Those troops where moving for a full year and only made 20kms? That's some really slow movement.....

by your own standards Sweden cannot build jet fighters; if yours is a 'real-world view', explain the existence of the Grippen (and previous Saab jets), please.

Now, now, don't get defensive, they slipped my mind :p Sorry. Well, Considering they have a strong economy...

That is a good thing to take into account. I think it's great how you have all been helpful here.

I think that populations are not all that important to the development, if we look at the UK, they have a 60 million population, have a navy, army jets, tanks etc, same with Israel, although I'm not sure on their population.

So I suppose Economy has to be good, and having an arms industry and automotive industry to build weapons too.

On the subject of having weapons very soon, I have noticed some cracking deals regarding weapons in the storefronts on the forum, if I get good deals, would it be seen as godmodding to then say you have them in your arsenal?

Hell no. Though for the sake of "dealing with wankers" I'd keep track of what I bought from whom.

Another method of "getting around the wankers" is to purchase technology rights, production rights, or get in on a group which does "group technologies".

Finally - it's a game. If you enjoy it, and find people who want to play with you, good. The rest can go leap if they can't deal.

:)

Remember - time is fluid and anything is possible here.

Hell no. Though for the sake of "dealing with wankers" I'd keep track of what I bought from whom.

Another method of "getting around the wankers" is to purchase technology rights, production rights, or get in on a group which does "group technologies".

Finally - it's a game. If you enjoy it, and find people who want to play with you, good. The rest can go leap if they can't deal.

:)

Remember - time is fluid and anything is possible here.

Thanks mate.

I have in a round about way, already been accussed of godmodding by persons who seemingly take the game too seriously, who refuse to let me purchase from them because I have (in their opinion) spent too much money elsewhere. (Even though it was within my budget on a RL day by day basis which I consider a NS year at the moment).

I think that people who do that, and also refuse to let you purchase from them because your population is lower than a certain amount ruin the game, not only need to get a life and stop being so anally retentive and arrogant, but also discourage new potential Rpers like myself who wish to enjoy the potentials of the game, without being godmodders.

At the moment I am trying to play realistically, but it can be very frustrating when I am 'dealing with wankers' as you excellently put it. :)

Remember, it's a consensual game universe.

Me, I believe there are an infinity of "Earths" and they all meet all over the place ala "Nine Princes of Amber". Or whatever Zelazny called those books eventually. So everything can touch. After that, it's a matter of getting agreement on who is where with what so you can blow each other up.

If someone doesn't want to sell to you - ok, fine. Go elsewhere. There's lots out there. The point of the game is "to have fun".

Enjoy!

Dont believe the assholes that tell you that you are too young to have nukes. You can have what ever the fuck you want within reason.

Thanks all for your advice. :)

At the end of the day, it's a game. A game to be enjoyed.