NationStates Jolt Archive

I have something of an argument I'm trying to settle.


Let's say we have one nation with a population of 8 million, and another with a population a bit above 2 billion.


Mr. 8 million, my other nation, focuses on spying and a bit of espionage. Mr. 8 million roleplays his people ar Kobolds, little lizard people that are very sneaky but physically weak.

Mr. 2 billion will post a bit about his tactics or whatever.

Obviously a nation of 2 billion could wipe out a nation of 8 million in normal warfare, but do you think Mr. 8 million could spy somewhat on Mr. 2 billion? When I say spy I mean merely hiding in a good position with camouflage and binoculars, watching some troop movements, keeping an eye on any construction the enemy is doing, listening in on conversations if possible. Nothing really fancy, no intentional combat.


So, it goes without saying 2 billion wins a war against 8 million, but could the smaller of the two spy as described? If neccesary I can link to the topic where this occured, and if you have any questions we (as in I and Mr. 2 billion) should be able to answer.

Certainly spying sounds reasonable to me, especially if you have the budget to afford good training for your agents.

Espionage is always a good route for small nations.

NOTE: Everything said in here is strictly OOC

Anyhoo, I am mr. 2 billion. 2.768 to be exact.
Ok, so he thinks that he can spy on my construction, I said that i think this is godmodding considering the fact that i don't think he has the technology to such upon such a large nation.

Another thing, This construction site is completely underground, i never revealed any location as to where it is located, and the only entrance is in an incognito (SP?) store. So answer me this, if i am construction something that i just seem to not have given the location to, how does a 8 million nation find it?

Yet, another thing, even if he did know about, and someway miraculously get some coordinates for the location, how do the spies get there, do they just waltz right into our nation, like they belong there. and also, I had marines in the area.

One, last thing. Consider the fact that he would have never gotten into our nation, because our nation is on a non-foreign alert right now. another words, foreigners from any nation not completely trusted, was not accepted. So what? He flew there? don't you think that a naiton of 2.768 billion is going to consider the fact of air patrol?

So there, i have told you my side of the story, i would like your opinions upon hearing this.

EDIT: oh, just another thing, just because your new, you don't know, I am Neo-Wu!!!!! I am infamous, and completely powerful, i have RP with the best, no wait, when people say they RP with the best, they often speak of me. Another words: I am Superior.

Then RP capturing his spies. He can certainly try to spy on you, even if he doesn't actually get any usefull information...

NOTE: Everything said in here is strictly OOC

Anyhoo, I am mr. 2 billion. 2.768 to be exact.
Ok, so he thinks that he can spy on my construction, I said that i think this is godmodding considering the fact that i don't think he has the technology to such upon such a large nation.

Another thing, This construction site is completely underground, i never revealed any location as to where it is located, and the only entrance is in an incognito (SP?) store. So answer me this, if i am construction something that i just seem to not have given the location to, how does a 8 million nation find it?

Yet, another thing, even if he did know about, and someway miraculously get some coordinates for the location, how do the spies get there, do they just waltz right into our nation, like they belong there. and also, I had marines in the area.

One, last thing. Consider the fact that he would have never gotten into our nation, because our nation is on a non-foreign alert right now. another words, foreigners from any nation not completely trusted, was not accepted. So what? He flew there? don't you think that a naiton of 2.768 billion is going to consider the fact of air patrol?

So there, i have told you my side of the story, i would like your opinions upon hearing this.

EDIT: oh, just another thing, just because your new, you don't know, I am Neo-Wu!!!!! I am infamous, and completely powerful, i have RP with the best, no wait, when people say they RP with the best, they often speak of me. Another words: I am Superior.

OOC: First off, I don't know what your hang up is in relating population to being impervious to being spied upon. Does your big population exhibit some kind of stealth shield covering your country from satellites?

Secondly, just because your construction is "completely" underground, doesn't mean that their might be hints of something going on. For example, your workers most likely rise to the surface and go to their hovels at the end of their shift. If you are furiously digging away, then you are carting away rocks, dirt, etc... out from underground and moving them somewhere else. Perhaps there are rail links leading to the site to bring in heavy machinery. Most likely, there are roads. And if the location is remote, a big airstrip would be visible. Even remote sites have access roads.

And I don't know how secure "non-foreign alert" is, but it doesn't mean it's 100% foolproof. Not all the borders can be patrolled all the time - especially if your country is large. Even though the border between North and South Korea has a big assed fence, minefields, etc... the North Koreans still managed to dig tunnels underground (some large enough to accomodate troop trucks) before being discovered.

Now, the 8 million pop nation may have troubles inserting agents - but perhaps they managed to acquire some humans to do their dasterdly deeds. Or perhaps they managed to bribe their way in. How corrupt is your government according to the NS rankings?

Finally, I have to assume that your little "superior" rant is tongue and cheek, because if it isn't, please get over yourself.

Yet, another thing, even if he did know about, and someway miraculously get some coordinates for the location, how do the spies get there, do they just waltz right into our nation, like they belong there. and also, I had marines in the area.
This is really the only point in question for me. Obviously it's now unanimous that a small nation that focuses on insurgents and the like (which I, Mr. 8 million, do) could spy on Neo-Wu, the only problem is transportation. I had imagined I used ships, the large ones would stay away from his territory and send in less significant boats by night. What do you guys imagine would be the usual method? I could hijack something, I guess, but we are lizard people and any communication would ruin things. We're small and sneaky, so hiding in commercial jet landing gear isn't out of the question I guess.


Look at Vietnam-the North Vietnamese were much like my country, and the Americans and the South Vietnamese were like Neo-Wu. Of course, don't take that too extremely, I'm not actually fighting him. What I meant by the comparison is the way things were fought. Though it is true the USA went about it badly. I suppose a nation like Neo-Wu's would be less careless, but the simmilarity is still there.


But like I said, I focus on spying like this.
EDIT: BTW, The nation I have that focuses on spying is Aedhgal, not Westerney.



EDIT: oh, just another thing, just because your new, you don't know, I am Neo-Wu!!!!! I am infamous, and completely powerful, i have RP with the best, no wait, when people say they RP with the best, they often speak of me. Another words: I am Superior.
Now, I don't want to get hostile, but... you joined in June and that makes you legendary? Maybe you should let other people decide when you're amazing. I AM new though, so if it goes without saying that you are a well known RPer, please excuse me.

Now, the 8 million pop nation may have troubles inserting agents - but perhaps they managed to acquire some humans to do their dasterdly deeds. Or perhaps they managed to bribe their way in. How corrupt is your government according to the NS rankings?
That's also true. I have no allies, though, so if we use humans they would be kidnapped and I imagine might rebel.


For anyone who needs to know:

Aedhgal, 8 mil. pop.:
UN Category: Capitalist Paradise
Civil Rights: Some
Economy: Very Strong
Political Freedoms: Some


Neo-Wu, 2.768 bil. pop.:
UN Category: Compulsory Consumerist State
Civil Rights: Below Average
Economy: Frightening
Political Freedoms: Few


I can't find the sticky where ranks are discussed, is "Frightening" above or below "Very Strong"?

I think Frightening is the highest ranking.

personally I'd say the smaller nation could probably manage to insert agents, and any such troop movements to guard the diggings, plus machinary movements to cart off the rubble/dirt and bring in concrete and supples would be something to be noted. exactly what could be drawn from it would depend on what is noted being moved.

Neo-Wu, being compulsory consumerist, which is right-wing-ish would probably be easier to spy on than a communist country with all those internal transport visas and internal security guards tracking the population...

ok, fair enough, I will RP this out with if you wish.

But, it will be met with deadly forces.

another thing, ya i joined this forum in june, but your so young you would not know of the previous forum, I had thousands of posts over there, ask any nation that is about 2 billlion or more, and they will most likely heard of me, AMF, Amerigo, Melkor Unchained, Thelas, The Eastern Bloc, and so on. So don't tell me i don't know what im taking about.

just to appease this argument, I will RP this spying mission with you if you wish, just start a new thread, do not do it in the thread that i started.

Sound fair?

Fair enough, yes, but it looks like the Ultimatum To Neo-Wu thread has died off. If ViZion brings it back up when he gets back from wherever he is, I'll spy on you. For now though there's no reason.

well, ViZion and I are no longer opposing each other, in fact we are actually in some of an weak alliance.

Of course, spying could be played more than just "walk around with binoculars"-style espionage. Embassies are, in fact, hot-beds of espionage, and used as bases for agents. They are mostly "legals", meaning they have diplomatic immunity. They can not, and usually don´t, resort to overt violence, like in Lethal Weapon II or was it III. Police has the right to arrest them, but not press charges. Hosting nation can declare said perpetrator
"persona non grata" and banish him/her from country. After that, they can ask the other nation to hand over the perpetrator as regular person, but spying nation usually does not. If the "diplomats" cover is blown, the career is usually at end.
"Illegals" are the traitors in spied country, and infiltrated spies without diplomatic protection.

First of all, Russia was a huge country, but it couldn't control all that was going on. :headbang:
Spies is the best source in winning a war against even a large nation than yours. With 2 billion people don't you think it will be hard to control that many people with having 100% proof in your nation. 8 Million people is easy to control and to used in warfare. As long as their is greed in your nation it will never be bullet proof :sniper: :mp5:

Thanks for letting me state my opinions. :rolleyes:

Sign,
Elite Marines :sniper: