NationStates Jolt Archive

The Eurusea-Syskeyia thread (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=333941)

Here, the OOC thread for the Eurusea-Syskeyia war thread.

Now, for onbe thing, I launched almost 2,000 EMP cruise missiles at the Eurusean-Reich fleet. One thousand, nine hundred and twenty to be exact. Personally, I think that would have taken out a considerable amount, if not the whole of, the Eurusean-Reich fleet. Here is what WA had to say about it:

Oh...that shit. Yea, I'd've ignored him at the first stage...or I would've bombarded the other warships sitting in IW off of your coast (p3) with so many weapons that they'd think you had an infinite supply of AS missiles and systems...in the process sinking the closest threats and staving off other approaching forces.

Also, some Cruise missiles have ranges of 900-1600 miles, not just the 400-600mi you mention.

The signals interference balloons would disrupt their own forces just as much as yours, if not more...and those emitting minor EMP pulses would destroy themselves as well as other ballons in range...and if the ships are moving at 60knots then the balloons are of little/no use.

Rockets strapped to ships would not propell them at 60knots, or would just rip apart the ships as they hit minor waves, flew into the air, twisted, and landed on the next waves at odd angles...ripping them apart as an ADCAP torp might do.

The Abatoir post is BS. An EMP missile wouldn't initiate an EMP-generating sequence from an aircraft impact, since it would be fused for a specific altitude or location, and so would not cause fellow missiles to fail. Contrary to his belief, EMP bombs do exist and are fielded with the USAF or USN.

I got the idea to load heaps on EMP missiles on the fleet from WA, who said earlier in a PM to me:

One option might be pelting them with EMP missiles. WA has a long history of producing systems with effective ranges up to 1km. When such weapons are fired in ripples against targets, there tends to be significant peak EMI concentrations based on the interference pattern that can easily overcome any existing EMP shielding (areas about 1/4-1/3 the distance to the range limit of these devices are extremely powerful...enough to overcome current EMP shielding). The truth is that long-range bombers could send smart-cruise missiles (like the WA supersonic CALCM variants) from over 1000miles away and then have those units be updated on the location and bearing of their target.

The primary issue is intercepting these units before they can even get within 1000mi of your land (I'm assuming that they're not immediate neighbors). IF you can stop them from afar or destroy their ships beyond the range of their shipborne aircraft (usually about 500 miles range, with the need to return those 500mi) then you've won half of the battle. WA uses ICBMs with KE or EMP warheads, modified 747s that carry an array of cruise missile systems (while not appearing to be much more than commercial traffic, from afar), and the massive GATEKEEPER Ultra Large Airlifters (airship like units), which carry several hundred assorted cruise missiles and which have a long and proven service history. IT was the use of such ICBMs and BM747s (as they're known) that repelled the Melkor-ally counter-invasion attempt against Ell...in which case no less than three massive enemy fleets were disabled or destroyed by a combination of these long-range assets (although it took the entire WA BM747 fleet operating at once to launch the missiles and there was a risk of nuclear retaliation for the ICBMs). IF he plays by the rules, you'll know he's coming and do damn near everything you can to stop him before he gets into your court.

If you want to debate the effectiveness of my attack, or to debate WA on said topic, I would gladly ack you to do so. Only don't wash away his arguments with "Oh, you're just 'I AM TEH G00D GUY L3T M3 W1N' & post sophistical arguments from the OMG sage of NS tech" and that BS.

I also invite WA to respond to any arguments against his tech, etc.

Also, Pantocratoria, your ships are being escorted by Expeditionary Strike Groups [ESGs]. There basically like the ESGs (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/news/.www/esg.html) that the US Navy has, but for this mission they're leaving the LPDs and LSDs as home. (Insert stupid drug jokes here. :) ) The Wasp-class amphibious assault ships are each carrying 20 F-35B JSFs and 6 ASW compound helicopters. (I think I mentioned it on the other thread).

St. Peter Claver Island itself has 5 corps of Army soldiers, meaning that there are 15 mechanized infantry divisions and 10 armored divisions on the island. No to mention the provincial Air Defense Division, and the elite 38th Airborne Division, forward deployed to the island but now in a defensive role due to, well, you know.

On another note, the island's civilians are evacuating. Women and children first, then the men (those who have not chosen to stay behind, of course.) And the governor has declared of emergency

Also, I would like my island back once this RP is over. In one piece, please.

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

I don't know much about military technology. What sort of mine-sweeping capabilities does an ESG have?

Oh, so you put it here instead. That's fine, luckily I saved my answer from earlier.

Originally Posted by Western Asia
Oh...that shit. Yea, I'd've ignored him at the first stage...or I would've bombarded the other warships sitting in IW off of your coast (p3) with so many weapons that they'd think you had an infinite supply of AS missiles and systems...in the process sinking the closest threats and staving off other approaching forces.

Also, some Cruise missiles have ranges of 900-1600 miles, not just the 400-600mi you mention.


Yeah? Isn't that what you have tried doing with those bombers? Or are we talking intercontinental missiles fired at ships here?


The signals interference balloons would disrupt their own forces just as much as yours, if not more...and those emitting minor EMP pulses would destroy themselves as well as other ballons in range...and if the ships are moving at 60knots then the balloons are of little/no use.


Tsk tsk, never heard of hardening? NOt to mention that EMP is not that effective in lower athmosphere and yes, it jams our signals too. Not to forget that he doesn't have a clue what they are used for. In this case to just mess up your general scanning in the area.


Rockets strapped to ships would not propell them at 60knots, or would just rip apart the ships as they hit minor waves, flew into the air, twisted, and landed on the next waves at odd angles...ripping them apart as an ADCAP torp might do.


Ahh.. the tech youth of today can learn from Spacedy programs. This is no scifi, this is waterjets. Lookie, here's a linky. http://www.foils.org/knots.htm


The Abatoir post is BS. An EMP missile wouldn't initiate an EMP-generating sequence from an aircraft impact, since it would be fused for a specific altitude or location, and so would not cause fellow missiles to fail. Contrary to his belief, EMP bombs do exist and are fielded with the USAF or USN.


I've had the EMP discussion before here in NS. I got a lenghty desciption of its use both in civilian and military. Don't know if the thread with all the references still is out there. And if you didn't know it you could fuse a missile for whatever you want to. But normally in these cases you use a nuke, in that case it's not the EMP-Pulse that wrecks whatever it hits, but the blast. The EMP


The Eurusean Levithan, which is a godmoddery all of its own (2,000 feet of sky? going at what speed to come around behind your B52s?). Also, with even the most advanced radars, it would still appear larger than a C5 on any radar system...and while he's right about the lack of air escourt, SAMs should rip it a few new assholes before he got that close...seriously, a 2000ft wingspan?


I Leave that for Eurusea to answer.

Can I quote my moma on tech here in the future? She seems to be as initiated as your fellow man there. Could we move on now?

Its pretty difficult to fuse an EMP weapon for impact. Electro Magentic Pulse weapons usually require an altitude or distance set detonation.

If the weapon is fused for impact the majority of the onboard systems designed to produce the EMP could and probably will be destroyed. If the weapon itself is hardened then the EMP will not be able to function properly.

However you could use a Proximity fuse, which will allow the desired effect in the Anti-shipping role.


Here is an excellent site:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1996/apjemp.htm

An electromagnetic bomb delivered by a conventional aircraft can offer a much better ratio of electromagnetic device mass to total bomb mass, as most of the bomb mass can be dedicated to the electromagnetic device installation itself. It follows therefore, that for a given technology an electromagnetic bomb of identical mass to a electromagnetic warhead equipped missile can have a much greater lethality, assuming equal accuracy of delivery and technologically similar electromagnetic device design.

.....

A missile borne electromagnetic warhead installation will comprise the electromagnetic device, an electrical energy converter, and an onboard storage device such as a battery. As the weapon is pumped, the battery is drained. The electromagnetic device will be detonated by the missile's onboard fusing system. In a cruise missile, this will be tied to the navigation system; in an anti-shipping missile the radar seeker and in an air-to-air missile, the proximity fusing system. The warhead fraction (ie ratio of total payload (warhead) mass to launch mass of the weapon) will be between 15% and 30% [8].

An electromagnetic bomb warhead will comprise an electromagnetic device, an electrical energy converter and a energy storage device to pump and sustain the electromagnetic device charge after separation from the delivery platform. Fusing could be provided by a radar altimeter fuse to airburst the bomb, a barometric fuse or in GPS/inertially guided bombs, the navigation system. The warhead fraction could be as high as 85%, with most of the usable mass occupied by the electromagnetic device and its supporting hardware.

Now, for onbe thing, I launched almost 2,000 EMP cruise missiles at the Eurusean-Reich fleet. One thousand, nine hundred and twenty to be exact. Personally, I think that would have taken out a considerable amount, if not the whole of, the Eurusean-Reich fleet. Here is what WA had to say about it:

You then retconned said attack, meaning you never launched them, so this entire 'point' is moot. If you want to insist on launching, just assume Eurusea threw a Defence Bomb at your missilewank for near-total loss of weapons.

You also gave us no chance to intercept said bombers.

Also, an EMP device could easily be classified as a weapon of mass destruction, so using them against nuclear-armed hostiles isn't really the best idea.

If you want to debate the effectiveness of my attack, or to debate WA on said topic, I would gladly ack you to do so. Only don't wash away his arguments with "Oh, you're just 'I AM TEH G00D GUY L3T M3 W1N' & post sophistical arguments from the OMG sage of NS tech" and that BS.

The effectiveness of your attack is nil because both sides have made posts after it which assume the attack never took place. Therefore, it didn't.

I also invite WA to respond to any arguments against his tech, etc.

We don't care what Western Asia thinks.

On another note, the island's civilians are evacuating. Women and children first, then the men (those who have not chosen to stay behind, of course.) And the governor has declared of emergency.

They're evacuating through a hostile fleet's SAM systems and interceptors, even though escorting every one will tie up virtually every plane on the island? Is the governor certifiably insane?

Also, I would like my island back once this RP is over. In one piece, please.

'Oh, and I'd like my island back once this war is over. In one piece, please.' - Emperor Hirohito

Yeah, let's just destroy any tension by deciding the outcome right now.

Just to add something, because now I read a bit of the thread and understand a little more. Most SAMs and AAMs use proximity fuses, meaning they don't actually impact the target but rather detonate at a certain distance. Using EMP missiles for this purpose is entirely plausible.

Just what we needed. More kvetching. Can we move past the damn EMP missiles? That was retcon'd, remember? Why bring up a non-issue.

Also, Syskeyia, are you even reading the war posts in the thread? You're going to airlift civilians out, while under artillary bombardment, with bombers from myself, Vegana, and Endless Crimes on the way, plus whatever giant Machines Of Doom coming from Eurusea? Are you nuts? Do you think any of the nations involved would hesitate for an instant to blow your cargo planes out of the air? I mean, I specifically mentioned that my bombers would be firebombing civilian targets...

And this isn't "evil refusing to lose", this is "good" making some pretty severe tactical, and logical, blunders. And, as Eurusea mentioned before... did you ever consider parlay?

Sys, do you just assume that I crawl the forums enough to find a thread like this? :) Also, next time, could you tell me when you're posting a TM? I'm rather more free with my words in private...and my argument there was somewhat hastily thrown together.

Tsk tsk, never heard of hardening? NOt to mention that EMP is not that effective in lower athmosphere and yes, it jams our signals too. Not to forget that he doesn't have a clue what they are used for. In this case to just mess up your general scanning in the area.

EMP isn't as well-ranged in atmosphere, since the air absorbs the energy relatively quickly...but that still allows EMPs generated by using explosion-driven systems to have a range of up to 1km or so (on the very high side). The general scanning would only be messed up temporarily by EMP pulses, while EW transmitters, false targes, and other electronic signal producers would have a more lasting effect...they'd be the equivalent for your forces of a giant electronic smokescreen that your systems could filter out since you presumably know the frequencies of your jammers and false target generators. An EMP generating balloon-lofted payload is pretty much useless no matter the intended purpose.

Hardening is simply not effective against high energy, concentrated EMP bursts...the EMP hardening used in US and soviet military installations was made for installations far enough from the primary nuclear blast to survive that...the hardening was then placed to protect against the remnant EMI. Faraday cages and the sort also have to be 'tuned' to the frequency of the EM energy (matter behaves both as particles and as waves), and EMP generators could be (are) tuned to different frequencies...WA-produced systems can be set to variable (ie, each missile hits one of a predetermined, but secret, set of frequencies to overcome the faraday cages) or user-selected (again, variable f) frequencies...this all making most hardening efforts, save the use of bulky vacuum tubes, nearly useless.

EMPs on a target of sufficient energy can't really be stopped by 'hardening' although circuit breakers, fuses, and other systems can limit or minimize damage...some part of the system must be sacrificed. In very high energy EMP/EMI areas...even shut-offs are insufficient as the EM fields generate enough energy along the lines of the circuits to fry the chips without any existing current, thus frying both active and inactive systems.


Ahh.. the tech youth of today can learn from Spacedy programs. This is no scifi, this is waterjets. Lookie, here's a linky. http://www.foils.org/knots.htm
A company that's never built a craft above 30', which claims 50' and larger craft but has never built any...not even one real photo is shown on their site, only concepts and a long list of patents and magazine hype articles.

The fastest practical miliary hydrofoils have gotten about 50knots, which were still very small craft (<200ft) by military standards. As the page you provide says, larger vessels face SERIOUS stability and hydrofoil strength problems. The ships tested and provided as the "potential" superhighspeed hydrofoils all are extremely aerodynamic (since they're basically flying while grounded in the water, which keeps them from actual flight)...large ships would be very difficult (read: virtually impossible) to propel that fast using this technology. Another foreseeable problem is the supercavitation of the hydrofoils, which would eventually wear away the hydrofoils due to the force of the collapsing cavitations. SES, Catamarans, and Trimaran hulls have all proven to be better options for stable high speed ships.

I've had the EMP discussion before here in NS. I got a lenghty desciption of its use both in civilian and military. Don't know if the thread with all the references still is out there. And if you didn't know it you could fuse a missile for whatever you want to. But normally in these cases you use a nuke, in that case it's not the EMP-Pulse that wrecks whatever it hits, but the blast.

I've had more than a dozen, including one where my contributions and those of one partner-author were considered a baseline for realistic EMP usage, so?

Anyways, in that post, Abatoir rammed one aircraft into an inbound EMP missile (which might be hard since the missiles are, I believe, travelling well over Mach 1...possibly in the Mach 2-3 range and since even a F-22 or F-15 pilot would be VERY hard pressed to a) calculate the path to get in and b) catch up to by that time.) and claimed by his RP that that impact set off the EMP missile (which would, in this case, be guided by radar or GPS with a fuse set to go off at an optimal burst height, since the EMP blast is, like a nuke, more effective when ignited above ground).(" I'm going to assume that most of them were disabled due to the early detonation of the missile that my fighter hit. It went off and disabled most of the surrounding ones. ")

Fusing an EMP missile to ignite on impact is not only foolish but impractical. As was said, that would foul the systems..which would probably be destroyed by the impact. For an air-to-air use (ie, an AAM armed with an EMP warhead) a proximity fuse might be a good idea as would a non-EMP generating self-destruct sequence...but these are long-range Air to Ground/ASMs that can't depend on impacts to begin the sequence so a proximity fuse would not be included...and an aircraft-missile interaction would not generate the EMP to destroy the fellow missiles. For my planned mass-EMPing, it is assumed that a medium-short range wireless system is used to coordinate the blasts so that the majority go off at once.

PS I missed the Syskeyian actual ret'con of that attack...I only saw your calls for it. Could you link me, please?

-------

Eurusea,
I care about what I have to say, especially if it proves you wrong.

"You then retconned said attack, meaning you never launched them, so this entire 'point' is moot. If you want to insist on launching, just assume Eurusea threw a Defence Bomb at your missilewank for near-total loss of weapons.

You also gave us no chance to intercept said bombers.

Also, an EMP device could easily be classified as a weapon of mass destruction, so using them against nuclear-armed hostiles isn't really the best idea."

EMP missiles with a range of up to 1,100-1,400km would probably be launchable quite outside of your interdiction range...so the bombers are likely beyond that.

BTW, These EMP weapons have a relatively minor explosion (which lets one know when a blast has occurred and which drives the blast). I'd estimate 100-300lbs for a 1,000lb class warhead. These aren't WMDs since they are neither indiscriminate nor persistant in their effect. They'd be seen as a 'normal' massed ASM launch.

Now what about your massive plane again? I didn't hear a response.

PS I didn't know I was a "great sage of NS technology" so much as someone who could spot BS godmoddery at 100 paces. To respond to your "'behind' means 'within four feet of.'" claim, it's a) idiotic, b) wrong. "Right behind" in aviation terms is as much as 20km...roughly inside of short-ranged AAM range and close enough for visual ID confirmation. An aircraft that large would either be picked up by long-range SAMs on the island or by any long-ranged radar in the region...that's why I spoke about SAMs intercepting it. If it is so far off that it is beyond SAM range then your description is at fault...but this is all secondary to the idea of a plane with a 2,000ft wingspan.



In any case, I told Sys in an earlier TM to ignore you all in the first place (I saw trouble in the first few posts)...and this all only seems to back it up as your ideas of personal allempowerment have overcome reality and commonsense.

Eurusea,
I care about what I have to say, especially if it proves you wrong.

Which it doesn't. Congrats.

EMP missiles with a range of up to 1,100-1,400km would probably be launchable quite outside of your interdiction range...so the bombers are likely beyond that.

But they weren't, because Sysk didn't quote that range figure. In fact, they weren't launched at all, so nothing you say here matters in the slightest. It didn't happen, get over it and move on.

BTW, These EMP weapons have a relatively minor explosion (which lets one know when a blast has occurred and which drives the blast). I'd estimate 100-300lbs for a 1,000lb class warhead. These aren't WMDs since they are neither indiscriminate nor persistant in their effect. They'd be seen as a 'normal' massed ASM launch.

And intercepted with Defence Bombs as such. And I'm sorry, but since the things most affected by EMP bombing of a civilian area would be hospitals they are weapons of mass destruction.

Now what about your massive plane again? I didn't hear a response.

It was in the thread you claim to have read.

The Eurusean Levithan, which is a godmoddery all of its own (2,000 feet of sky? going at what speed to come around behind your B52s?). Also, with even the most advanced radars, it would still appear larger than a C5 on any radar system...and while he's right about the lack of air escourt, SAMs should rip it a few new assholes before he got that close...seriously, a 2000ft wingspan?

Western Asia seems to think 'behind' means 'within four feet of.' It's at stand-off range [and still not too hard to see, being bloody enormous], using unpleasantly powerful nuclear engines to get the kind of speed talked about. I never made any claim it wouldn't appear on radar, in fact I explicitly said it's image was unbelievably big so I don't know where the hell that came from. Western Asia also seems to think that there are SAM belts lurking around in the middle of the ocean. Him deluded.

Also, you seriously think an aircraft that size would have no point defence system?

Which it doesn't. Congrats.
I have the opposite opinion, congrats. Oh, and read the updated post above.

But they weren't, because Sysk didn't quote that range figure. In fact, they weren't launched at all, so nothing you say here matters in the slightest. It didn't happen, get over it and move on.

I didn't see his retraction of the post...only your calls for it.

[qupte]And intercepted with Defence Bombs as such. And I'm sorry, but since the things most affected by EMP bombing of a civilian area would be hospitals they are weapons of mass destruction.[/quote]

Dropping a 2,000lb bomb on a hospital would make it a WMD? How about pelting it with artillery shells? This a) isn't a civilian area, and b) it's not an indiscriminate weapon (def. of WMD includes this) although its use against a civilian power plant might be (any hospitals worth 2cents have back up generators and emergency contingencies). The most affected civilian infrastructure would actually be water treatment and provisions, not hospitals...so that's 2 strikes with only one pitch.

It was in the thread you claim to have read.
Something about nuclear engines, stand-off ranges, and the sort? I didn't close read the thread initially and my reread doesn't move towards an explanation of your claims.

Also, you seriously think an aircraft that size would have no point defence system?
No. Did I say so? No. Points awarded? None.

That is a non-sequitor to the issues raised...and still doesn't answer any questions asked, because what good is an imaginary self-defense system on an imagined/godmodded aircraft that couldn't be there in the first place?

That is a non-sequitor to the issues raised...and still doesn't answer any questions asked, because what good is an imaginary self-defense system on an imagined/godmodded aircraft that couldn't be there in the first place? Where is the godmode on the aircraft?

I have the opposite opinion, congrats. Oh, and read the updated post above.

Your opinion is wrong. Congrats.

I didn't see his retraction of the post...only your calls for it.

I don't see him defending his post. Do you?

Dropping a 2,000lb bomb on a hospital would make it a WMD? How about pelting it with artillery shells? This a) isn't a civilian area, and b) it's not an indiscriminate weapon (def. of WMD includes this) although its use against a civilian power plant might be (any hospitals worth 2cents have back up generators and emergency contingencies). The most affected civilian infrastructure would actually be water treatment and provisions, not hospitals...so that's 2 strikes with only one pitch.

Why, because you're not thinking? You think EMP wouldn't knock out the circuits in the backup generators and kill all the equipment in the hospital anyway? You think destroying everything containing an electrical circuit in a set radius isn't indiscriminate? How the hell are you defining 'indiscriminate?'

Something about nuclear engines, stand-off ranges, and the sort? I didn't close read the thread initially and my reread doesn't move towards an explanation of your claims.

Explain what is wrong with a nuclear-engined flying wing with a span of 2,000ft. In your explaination, tell me why it would be impossible to ever build an aircraft of that size. All I have from you at the moment is this useless whining that 'it are an grodloed bcos i THE GRATE WESTRN ASEA SAYS SO!!11' If that's the best you've got, go back to spewing acronyms in ship design threads.

You seriously think if I had an absolutely workable plan for the Leviathan I'd post it here instead of selling it to Boeing? Suspend your disbelief, kiddo, and leave this stupid 'nothing greater than FAS' attitude at the door.

EMP isn't as well-ranged in atmosphere, since the air absorbs the energy relatively quickly...but that still allows EMPs generated by using explosion-driven systems to have a range of up to 1km or so (on the very high side). The general scanning would only be messed up temporarily by EMP pulses, while EW transmitters, false targes, and other electronic signal producers would have a more lasting effect...they'd be the equivalent for your forces of a giant electronic smokescreen that your systems could filter out since you presumably know the frequencies of your jammers and false target generators. An EMP generating balloon-lofted payload is pretty much useless no matter the intended purpose.


Actually, that's exactly what they do. The never thought a balloon with EMP would do anything else but disturb people. Please restrain from reading minds here, and that goes for all of us. Just react to what the others do and see afterwards what their plans were with their actions.


Hardening is simply not effective against high energy, concentrated EMP bursts...the EMP hardening used in US and soviet military installations was made for installations far enough from the primary nuclear blast to survive that...the hardening was then placed to protect against the remnant EMI. Faraday cages and the sort also have to be 'tuned' to the frequency of the EM energy (matter behaves both as particles and as waves), and EMP generators could be (are) tuned to different frequencies...WA-produced systems can be set to variable (ie, each missile hits one of a predetermined, but secret, set of frequencies to overcome the faraday cages) or user-selected (again, variable f) frequencies...this all making most hardening efforts, save the use of bulky vacuum tubes, nearly useless.



Exactly the discussions I've had, and as long as there is transistors you can never make it 100 % EMP safe. I knwo some people has been talking about using light and such in their tech, but anyways....


A company that's never built a craft above 30', which claims 50' and larger craft but has never built any...not even one real photo is shown on their site, only concepts and a long list of patents and magazine hype articles.


You show me a company that has built all your tech and I show you a company that has built all my tech. Just proving that the Tech was feasible. I actually went with a ferry between Holyhead and Dublin the other day, big and bulky and darn quick it was, holding cars and thousands of people. Again, my point was that I don't use airjets to propell my boats, you thought I did, I proved that the tech was there, even today. You was Wrong.




JUst showing you different ways of jetting seacrafts, never mention my type of hull. Next you should know I also have Hovercrafts, there is no Hovercrafts today in RL that is as big as the ones I use, but I've used them before in NS and noone has complained. The tech is feasible, I'm a extreme high tech nation. This is a game not reality, I could point on the tech of hundreds of good players here in NS and say that "Noone has ever made a spaceship that big, the biggest US did was a space ferry" Now what fun would that be? Where is the creativity?

[Quote]
In any case, I told Sys in an earlier TM to ignore you all in the first place (I saw trouble in the first few posts)...and this all only seems to back it up as your ideas of personal allempowerment have overcome reality and commonsense.

With your logic he has to ignore a lot of people who's tech you would say was impossible. Are you a spacenation by any chance?

*Some mindless ranting about people always messing up potentially good RP, just because they don't master tactics*

Either you join in the thread or you just leave. There's soooo many technical experts that could have their say and actually, they're ruining the game.

OOC: Deployment

2 Carriergroups each consisting of:

1 Carrier Jehovah-Class
2 Carriers Matthew-Class
3 Battleships Vengeance-Class
8 Anti-ballistic ships
16 destroyers
6 Cruisers
6 submarines
18 Transports (Hovercraft)
4 Supply ships

And folks, I'm not heading for St. Claver anymore, heading for South west of the gulf of Syskeyia. Consider parts of Gulf of Syskeyia mined and dangerous to travel through. (AS you can see in my posts) I also has agreed about this with Sysk in private TG.

OK, I've got an idea. Why don't people just list here the sorts of things they do and don't have a problem with, and then decide on a common list? That way, we wouldn't get into stupid arguments all the time, and we could just move the story forward, since that is the whole point of the thread. And if we can't agree on the list, let's just fire ignore cannons all over this seemingly never-ending pissing match!

Where is the godmode on the aircraft?
It's in the lack of any explanation of a 2,000 foot wingspan aircraft that apparently is travelling at close to or above Mach 1.


I don't see him defending his post. Do you?
Ummm, yea, actually I do. What do you call posts demanding that you respond to the strikes and this thread? Also, since Abatoir already responded to the RP it has apparently happened.

Why, because you're not thinking? You think EMP wouldn't knock out the circuits in the backup generators and kill all the equipment in the hospital anyway? You think destroying everything containing an electrical circuit in a set radius isn't indiscriminate? How the hell are you defining 'indiscriminate?'

No, because I'm apparently thinking more than you have bothered to.

NATO's definition of WMDs: "Weapon of mass destruction" is a generic term for radionuclides, biological and chemical agents or materials, and their delivery means produced or used for non-peaceful purposes and whose effects can cause large numbers of casualties and/or large-scale material damage."

You're setting up a strawman arguement by arguing that the use of these weapons on a civilian target (unless a major powerplant or radio station or radar station or military base were /right next to/ a civilian hospital, there's no reason for the EMP to have a direct effect upon any circuitry at the hospital...and I know a lot of hospitals with campuses that are well over a km just by themselves.) would constitute an inhumane act and thusly the systems would be considered WMDs. Now, if I'm not mistaken, this would mean, in logically following your argument to its reasonable end, that any weapon used against civilian targets are, by your definition, WMDs. And yet it is your force that is shelling civilian airports and even Syskeyian cities in this RP...so it would not be a Syskeyian first strike in any case.

Furthermore, since these weapons are not, as you would seem to like us think, being used against civilian hospitals, they should be considered the same as cluster munitions or even, really, any military weapon: It has the potential and capacity to cause serious damage to civilians if used against them, but are not generally going to cause direct damage to one if used against the other.

I am using "indiscriminate" as a part of the WMD definition because that would probably help define WMDs to a reasonable level, even in your definition of anything that can harm or even bother civilians. As for the generators, since they're usually diesel generators they wouldn't be affected if off...which they'd be if they're not in use. As for "indiscriminate," a weapon with controllable effects and a limited effect are not going to randomly have an after-effect 20miles away, as the normally definded WMDs (N/B/C weapons) do. Your ships won't return home and suddenly have a recurrance of EMPs, thus wrecking civilian infrastructure around your port and killing or injuring your public. A weapon with a set and limited radius is not indiscriminate by this definition.

Explain what is wrong with a nuclear-engined flying wing with a span of 2,000ft. In your explaination, tell me why it would be impossible to ever build an aircraft of that size. All I have from you at the moment is this useless whining that 'it are an grodloed bcos i THE GRATE WESTRN ASEA SAYS SO!!11' If that's the best you've got, go back to spewing acronyms in ship design threads.

Well, for one thing, since your design is undefinded I have to make a lot of assumptions about your aircraft design...most of which don't work. Due to the sheer size, it would seem to be, almost necessarily, a BWB design. Now, the BWB is nice because it provides some lift over the main body, but when scaled up to a wingspan of 2,000 feet there are internal structural issues due to the fact that the aircraft is now likely to weigh more than 200,000tons (excluding all personnel, weapons, and fuel weights). This means that you have to have enough support when the airplane is on the ground. The closest system is the An-225, which has a maximum take-off weight of 650 tons (~1/308th the mass) and a wingspan of 88.4m (~1/23rd the length). This system uses a 32 wheel landing system just to support its weight. The An-225 is the largest existing aircraft in the world largely because other, larger aircraft, such as the PelicanULTRA concept, are not economically feasible...but even the PelicanULTRA, with a wingspan of 500ft and a length of 400ft, is primarily made possible because it has an altitude limit of about 20,000 feet with a normal operating altitude of about 20-60feet, which is just about where the WIG can function to give the Pelican a decent range. The Pelican would have to use engines that are potentially possible with current technology although too big for use on other aircraft and so have not been produced...but those only would get it to an air speed of about 300-400mph.

Now, it's not impossible to build such an aircraft so much as it is to get it off of the ground and moving at the speed you apparently were suggesting.

A 2,000 foot wingspan aircraft would require a runway of probably more than 20,000 feet (and possibly as much as 40,000 feet) with a width of probably close to 1,200 feet. That runway would have to be able to support the more than 200,000 tons of weight, which means expensive exotic materials since concrete would very likely buckle under the weight.

Since conventional nuclear propulsion schemes have been generally turned down (by both the US and USSR) as unfeasible, I'd assume that your propellant system is to use the "quantum nucleonic reactor" which does not clearly produce a sufficient amount of thrust to power anything larger than a small UAV (if it produces enough for even that, it's still just an unproven experimental concept). Assuming, however, that you looked to US or Soviet nuclear powered aircraft we'd have the following:
Either the US converted turbojet system or the Soviet converted turboprop system.

Both of these systems were only considered feasible with a "divided shield" system, which protected crews but emitted a LOT of radioactivity pretty much everywhere else around the aircraft (which would give this aircraft effectively a radioactive beacon for enemy detectors), including the ground crews and servicing equipment. This would also meen that most of the aircraft, its servicing facilities, and adjacent facilities are irradiated. Additionally, these systems depended upon improved reactor designs...which either materialized in power but not size or size but not power. The size issue is less, but still more than one might think since this aircraft would require several dozen engines of the level of the test aircraft...meaning that the size vs. power issues remain a central problem...unless you can explain it.

Oh, and the last I checked, people have to explain how something isn't godmodded before the questioner must explain how it is...now, since I've explained how it is...go ahead and explain how it isn't. Go ahead, challenge the numbers and facts.

BTW, "L33t" speak is unbecoming of you. I use acronyms on ship threads, in aircraft threads, and in other tech threads because, simply, I get tired of typing out the long names when easily established acronyms cover it in 2-5 letters (do you feel like spelling out Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation when you can just say "Laser"?)...it isn't spewing to use the acronyms correctly, either, "kiddo."

You seriously think if I had an absolutely workable plan for the Leviathan I'd post it here instead of selling it to Boeing? Suspend your disbelief, kiddo, and leave this stupid 'nothing greater than FAS' attitude at the door.
well, Kiddo, FAS.org is, frankly, crap. I don't trust it for anything I need reliability on. I do, however, expect you to at least come up with a general working concept other than your "0MG !TZ M4SS1V3 UND NUKLE4R!" post.

Btw, Boeing wouldn't be interested since the safety issues, lack of any military demand or interest, and likely general public protest would mean it wasn't worth the trouble. Now, since you're not limited by their constraints...what's your /general idea/ for how something with a wingspan like that would be able to support its own weight on the ground or in the air at the high speeds that would allow it to sneak up behind his bombers.

Suspention of disbelief ends where logic begins...and when some people want to play somewhat reasonably (Syskeyia) then you have some problems with stepping beyond that...that, after all, is the main sticking point in Future Tech vs. Modern/Post-modern tech RPs. What you have here, after all, is an issue where you claim somethings and get negative responses but then continue in spite of that negative feedback.


---------


That they do. The never thought a balloon with EMP would do anything else but disturb people. Please restrain from reading minds here, and that goes for all of us. Just react to what the others do and see afterwards what their plans were with their actions. If I were a radar operator, a 10second data loss in one sector on my screen would not be disturbing so much as momentarily confusing...since your claimed use is useless we'll move on.

Exactly the discussions I've had, and as long as there is transistors you can never make it 100 % EMP safe. I knwo some people has been talking about using light and such in their tech, but anyways....
Light information transfer systems (ie, fiberoptics) are a nice way of limiting EMP effects because the long fiberoptic wires will not become antennae and conductors of EMP-derived excess energy. There is still a problem at both ends that can be limited by EMP-limiting shieldings (basically, lots and lots of metal, concrete, and mixed heavy materials). I like it because it doesn't risk electrifying nearby equipment in the case of a wire break, the system can self-diagnose breaks in the lines more rapidly and easily, and because fiberoptic wires have a MUCH higher transmission rate than conventional wires.

You show me a company that has built all your tech and I show you a company that has built all my tech.

Go to Israeli-Weapons.com, you'll find 95% of my systems or their immediate predecessors used there. The other 5% are working concepts, advancements and mergings of existing technologies (ie, adding existing supersonic turbojets and ramjets to existing long-range cruise missiles and EMP generators), or are simply working prototypes. The MTHEL system exists IRL and although it is still somewhat larger than the system I use, my system is supposed to be the final version w/in 5-10 years.

Trimarans and Catamarans, the central features of the WA fleet, are proven civilian technology and are being proven as military systems constantly.

Company names?
El OP
IMI
RAFAEL
L-M
GDLS
MBDA
Boeing
Bell Helicopters
Vespyr Thornecroft
Dockstavaret
Pepperball technologies, inc.
do you want all ~100+?

Just proving that the Tech was feasible. I actually went with a ferry between Holyhead and Dublin the other day, big and bulky and darn quick it was, holding cars and thousands of people. Again, my point was that I don't use airjets to propell my boats, you thought I did, I proved that the tech was there, even today. You was Wrong.
BTW, since you apparently travelled on the Stena Line catamaran (Link (http://www.holyhead.com/page99.html)) all that you proved was that my technology was possible, not hydrofoil technology.

"jets sprang into action propelling the fleet towards St Peter Claver Island at an astounding 60 Knots."- From the RP.

Waterjets can't propell large craft at 60knots, so my only logical conclusion was that you meant rocket jets...you also didn't mention hydrofoils lifting the ships during their transit, which meant that until you claimed that there /were/ hydrofoils I (and anyone aside from yourself) had no way to know what you were talking about. The only decently large types that I know that could go 60knots are SES ships/hybrid catamaran-hovercraft designs (normal catamaran and trimaran designs can get up to 45 or 50 knots but usually rest around 30-40knots for larger vessels)...which depend on water jets but which were also excluded there and in your more recent explanation.

All that you've proven is that I had a faulty assumption of airjets, which was based, however, on your lack of proper information in the rp. Waterjets are not often called 'jets' and so I was lead to assume other technologies. You have still not proven that hydrofoils (which could, very theoretically but without real proof, get your ships to that speed) are possible for such large vessels as you describe. I was mistaken, not wrong, since I was misled based on your faulty description.

JUst showing you different ways of jetting seacrafts, never mention my type of hull.
So are you now saying that you don't use hydrofoils either? Because that would mean that your ships have no basis...I know you can keep refusing to acknowledge any of your own claims but it gets no one anywhere (a link to a thread saying 'this is how you can do this claim' in support of your claims would indicate that that is how you're doing things, or am I being misled by your faulty descriptions once again?).

Next you should know I also have Hovercrafts, there is no Hovercrafts today in RL that is as big as the ones I use, but I've used them before in NS and noone has complained.
Hovercraft are considered to be a very scaleable technology since everything from Small personal craft to Zubr landing craft have demonstrated the technology without a diminished capabilityl. That's a proven technology, this other stuff isn't.

The tech is feasible, I'm a extreme high tech nation.
Futuretech?

This is a game not reality, I could point on the tech of hundreds of good players here in NS and say that "Noone has ever made a spaceship that big, the biggest US did was a space ferry" Now what fun would that be? Where is the creativity?

The current space access technologies indicate that surface-to-space aircraft are actually quite possible. The aircraft I use depend upon this but, like many of those RL aircraft, do not really have sufficient energy when launched conventionally to do anything more than minor maneuverings (ie, not engage in space battles and dogfights).

I would also say that those players don't pretend that their technology is compatible with moderntech, which certainly opens up doors but which cannot then be used in a moderntech RP.

I support creativity and if nations want to act like futuretech nations then all power to them, but I won't RP with them in areas that bring our tech levels into conflict.

With your logic he has to ignore a lot of people who's tech you would say was impossible. Are you a spacenation by any chance?
Any nation has the right to ignore other nations, esp. if they've launched wars without that nation's permission (RP manners). One can also ignore nations that do not follow reality but claim to nonetheless (ie, n00bs). Guess which category you all fall into by refusing to explain yourselves while ignoring Syskeyia's actions that you don't like?

Either you join in the thread or you just leave. There's soooo many technical experts that could have their say and actually, they're ruining the game.
Vegana, I was invited to contribute to this thread by its creator. I have joined in here. Syskeyia asked me, in a private TM, to evaluate the level of RP in the Syskeyia vs. Eurusea thread. I responded quickly and without any care for format other than what problems I saw first. He has apparently posted that private TM in public and has asked you to respond (you still really haven't) and for me to respond to your comments in turn.

We have numberwank, techwank, populationwank, magicwank and now we have realismwank!

It's a game. Get over yourself.

We have numberwank, techwank, populationwank, magicwank and now we have realismwank!

It's a game. Get over yourself.

Numberwank: making up numbers or using them in excess.
Techwank: making up tech or using it in excess and beyond what it can do.
Populationwank: abusing population? Haven't heard of it.
Magic wank: making up magic or using it in excess.

Realismwank: Making up reality or using it in excess? Diction sucks, huh? The point is not that absolute reality is demanded, but that what is beyond cannot be said to be a part of reality without contention. This means that things like your opening newbish invisible/undetectable tanks are not allowed to pass in anything but futuretech RPs. This is not a futuretech RP, to the best of my knowledge, so futuretech is being contested when presented as moderntech. Stick to the person-to-person RPs, treznor.

Alternate definition: realismwank (n): imposing "realism" upon RP to the detriment of the story.

Leaving aside my role-playing history and my "undetectable" tanks, the Eurusean attack on Syskeyia was started in Eurusea's thread. Not yours, not Syskeyia. Your self-righteous pontification about what Shall And Shall Not be is irrelevant and unwelcome. I'm very happy that you and Syskeyia get along together. That doesn't give you the right to dictate reality to anyone. I didn't appreciate it when you first preached at me about being "too young" to have developed a tank, let alone applying stolen technology. I like it even less now. The Spruce Goose wasn't supposed to fly but it did. I'm sure if someone made a similar claim in a "moderntech" RP that you'd dress them down for it as godmoders.

As Eurusea has so aptly put it, all we've got from you is "THE GRATE WESTRN ASEA SAYS SO!!11" My opinion stands.

Alternate definition: realismwank (n): imposing "realism" upon RP to the detriment of the story.
That's a misapplication of the suffix "-wank" which is a verb and a noun as it can be used in the transitive form "-wanking". But the misappropriation of reality from claims doesn't fit your history of technical RP.

Leaving aside my role-playing history and my "undetectable" tanks,
A past history of godmoddery isn't nothing. It was you that claimed they were undetectable at the time. You have also proven that you're better at writing personal-level RPing than anything that requires technical knowledge. I haven't tried to apply technical anything to any sort of personal interaction, but warfare is a field where capabilites, or impossibilities, have consequences (especially in unplanned RP wars such as this, where Eurusea and his group wish to actually do the virtual nation of Syskeyia some harm by applying superweapons that are described so as to be an overwhelming force that cannot be stopped).

the Eurusean attack on Syskeyia was started in Eurusea's thread. Not yours, not Syskeyia. Your self-righteous pontification about what Shall And Shall Not be is irrelevant and unwelcome.
The Syskeyian questioning of Eurusea's technology was started in Syskeyia's thread. Not yours, not Eurusea. Your self-righteous pontification about what Shall Not And Shall be is irrelevant and unwelcome.

I was invited to this thread, by its author, to comment upon the applicability and realism of the systems being thrown against him. You were not invited to weigh in on the matter of whether or not one should apply any semblence of realism to threads relating to war RPs.

My presence is neither unwarranted, irrelevant, nor unwelcome to the thread's originator. I did not jump in on the Eurusea/Syskeyia thread and if I had a serious issue with the Eurusean politics I would've ordered WA to intervene, but aside from an IC financial/trade relationship with Syskeyia, WA has no real reason to act.

Now, unless you care to prove anything, you can follow your own advice.

I'm very happy that you and Syskeyia get along together. That doesn't give you the right to dictate reality to anyone.

I am OOCly friendly with Syskeyia and give him my opinion when asked it. That's what I did and now I am defending assaults on my opinion, since Syskeyia shared it with others.

I didn't appreciate it when you first preached at me about being "too young" to have developed a tank, let alone applying stolen technology. I like it even less now.
You were a <1 week old nation that was claiming to have invisible tanks, for sale. I think that's just about the definition of a n00b, not a newb. You have certainly improved your reputation by RPing in other fields

The Spruce Goose wasn't supposed to fly but it did.
No /science/ said the Goose couldn't fly. Opinion (what you provide) and scientifically backed opinion (what I seek to provide) are different.

I'm sure if someone made a similar claim in a "moderntech" RP that you'd dress them down for it as godmoders.
Ummm, not really, since evolutionary progressions to large transport aircraft such as the An-225 and the proposed PelicanULTRA provides a firm engineering science-based backing for the idea of aircraft like BWBs and PelicanULTRAs.

As Eurusea has so aptly put it, all we've got from you is "THE GRATE WESTRN ASEA SAYS SO!!11" My opinion stands.
I'm providing evidence based on my knowledge of engineering without extending into mathematics. If I provided it with equations you'd complain that I was limiting my audience and your ability to argue with it. Do you want the simplified for help version or some incredibly complicated system that shows that 100,000 tons can't be held up by a few minor struts made of welded steel?

Look, I don't know half of what the hell's going on, but I do know that I positioned the Chimaean First Fleet, that's a whole crapload of ships and so forth, somewhere off Syskeyia on joint exercises. Yet everyone's ignored that. Thanks... but I guess it's fair enough 'cause I haven't been on the forums a lot :p

So I have two choices; continue from where I am or just pretend Chimaea was never involved.

I'd chose the former but you guys have absolutely lost me in the fine machinations of your bitchfest.

I'd chose the latter but I don't wanna leave Syskeyia in the lurch.

I have no idea with all this Island stuff... The Reich forces seem to have blockaded it (or blockaded something) even though my forces are already in the vicinity but what the hell o.O

This RP is rapidly starting to get boring. And Syskeyia, in this day and age of NS most nations probably would have EMP shielding; I know I do ever since I was attacked with EMPs over Amerigo and in the Clock Hill war.


edit: sorry, my question is: what is it you want me to do in the confines of the story?

That's a misapplication of the suffix "-wank" which is a verb and a noun as it can be used in the transitive form "-wanking". But the misappropriation of reality from claims doesn't fit your history of technical RP.
Actually, the suffix "-wank" here relates more to the "abuse" concept inherent in "wanking." As in, "You abuse your arguments regarding what is and isn't reality to benefit your own arguments, as opposed to what works in RP." As for my history (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=278561) of technical (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=289966) RP, I freely confess that I'm less interested in constructing detailed diagrams of how things work than demonstrating how they affect the people who use them.

A past history of godmoddery isn't nothing. It was you that claimed they were undetectable at the time.
That's rather curious. Since you're pushing the point, I claimed they were difficult to detect if you didn't know what you were looking for. I claimed stolen technology to create an EM field that reduced visual and thermal signatures At no point did I claim they were invisible, undetectable or otherwise invincible. Neither did I actually use them to enforce my godmoddery will. My complaint with you was your assertion that I couldn't possibly justify having anything so spectacular as a tank as a nation so young. You even went so far as to suggest I shouldn't even contemplate claiming development of a nuclear weapon (which I've never done) until I had a population of at least 250 million. Now I truly wish that thread hadn't been deleted in purges so I could directly reference these gems.

...where Eurusea and his group wish to actually do the virtual nation of Syskeyia some harm by applying superweapons that are described so as to be an overwhelming force that cannot be stopped).
As opposed to nations like Syskeyia that can't be allowed to lose because they're the "good guys?" To my knowledge, Eurusea has systematically developed and constructed every facet of their "overwhelming force" being used, and have demonstrated it in other threads. It happens. If the Five Kingdoms of Melkor Unchained were to invade my nation, I'd be forced to concede overwhelming force in his billions of orcs, in spite of the strengths of my nation. I'm less interested in what Eurusea is using to attack and more interested in why.

The Syskeyian questioning of Eurusea's technology was started in Syskeyia's thread. Not yours, not Eurusea. Your self-righteous pontification about what Shall Not And Shall be is irrelevant and unwelcome.

I was invited to this thread, by its author, to comment upon the applicability and realism of the systems being thrown against him. You were not invited to weigh in on the matter of whether or not one should apply any semblence of realism to threads relating to war RPs.
Yes, this is Syskeyia's thread, and he referenced you directly. That still doesn't give you the moral rectitude to pass judgment on what anyone but Syskeyia is doing. Eurusea made the fatal mistake (as I have) of even dignifying your criticism with a response, but as in my case, he probably couldn't resist pointing out the utter futility of your contributions.

No /science/ said the Goose couldn't fly. Opinion (what you provide) and scientifically backed opinion (what I seek to provide) are different.

I'm providing evidence based on my knowledge of engineering without extending into mathematics. If I provided it with equations you'd complain that I was limiting my audience and your ability to argue with it. Do you want the simplified for help version or some incredibly complicated system that shows that 100,000 tons can't be held up by a few minor struts made of welded steel?
Professional aviators, engineers and scientists all said the Goose would never leave the ground, until it actually took to the air. That I'm aware of, the science of aerodynamics still hasn't explained why a bumblebee can fly. I'm very happy that you've got such a firm grasp of modern science, but frankly, I'm not interested. Our technological history is replete with examples of things that "can't be done" until someone actually does it. War RP or character RP, I'm more interested in the story than I am confirming that X's science is better than Y's.

You are an authority on your own RP and your own technology. If Syskeyia wants to be your groupie, I'm happy for him. As far as I'm concerned, you have no business commenting on anyone else's technology (modern tech or no) or role-play.

<tedious rubbish>

Remember when I said 'I don't care about your opinion?' I still don't. Buy a ladder and use it to get over yourself.

Well, for one thing, since your design is undefinded I have to make a lot of assumptions about your aircraft design...most of which don't work.

Your assumptions don't work? Bravo! Maybe your assumptions are wrong?

Oh, and the last I checked, people have to explain how something isn't godmodded before the questioner must explain how it is...now, since I've explained how it is...go ahead and explain how it isn't. Go ahead, challenge the numbers and facts.

No, you're tossed out a set of stupid, unjustified assumptions and insisted that my aircraft must use one of them. Check this out:

Syskeyia accepts Menelmacari tech.

Since obviously neither of you two fine roleplayers would be so intellectually dishonest as to place an uneven burden of proof, I'm sure you have a snappy explaination as to why a 2,000ft span Leviathan is less realistic than a mile-plus gravitic dreadnought covered in Galvorn armour plate and firing coherent plasma bolts.

Right?

Actually, the suffix "-wank" here relates more to the "abuse" concept inherent in "wanking." As in, "You abuse your arguments regarding what is and isn't reality to benefit your own arguments, as opposed to what works in RP."

That's different from the examples you gave, since most of those examples are derived from the use of "wanking" as synonymous with "godmoding" so that's the root I took it from rather than from the alternate root (which is used in populationwanking, I guess, since it's the only one I wasn't familiar with and since it's the only one that is mainly focused on what would seem to be your root). Like many words in the english language, on NS, Wanking has the primary usage as I described it (http://forums.jolt.co.uk/showpost.php?p=5164415&postcount=1) while yours is a less well known, but I guess valid, alternate root and meaning.*

*- The suffix "-wank" is derived from what I said, I'm providing sources now for every claim since you now demand evidence.

As for my history (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=278561) of technical (http://forums2.jolt.co.uk/showthread.php?t=289966) RP, I freely confess that I'm less interested in constructing detailed diagrams of how things work than demonstrating how they affect the people who use them.
I'm aware of that. And Eurusea is just trying to have his systems work perfectly without any effect on his own forces but with tremendous effect on his opponents...not exactly up your alley of complicated meddling.

That's rather curious. Since you're pushing the point, I claimed they were difficult to detect if you didn't know what you were looking for.

You actually claimed that they could not be detected by anything but visual means and then at close range if you knew what you were looking for.

I claimed stolen technology to create an EM field that reduced visual and thermal signatures. At no point did I claim they were invisible, undetectable or otherwise invincible.

I have only fragments of the argument as saved in word documents. Your primary argument in what I have (a response post that I saved) is simply that any nation of any size should be able to have access to any technology, based on the examples of nations with extraordinary histories that have gained a technological edge IRL over larger nations (such as Israel, which gained its edge through a great number of educated immigrants and a close relationship with the major european powers). But you were arguing that history did not determine access and so you should have even supermodern tech. That position has since been split off into spacetech/futuretech, where you are welcome to stay and Eurusea is welcome to go if you do not want to be limited by the moderntech and nearmoderntech that I practice and which all of the technological/technical threads are based upon, but don't try to argue that anything is possible in moderntech, that's just an abuse of techlevel.

Neither did I actually use them to enforce my godmoddery will. My complaint with you was your assertion that I couldn't possibly justify having anything so spectacular as a tank as a nation so young.

No, I said you could have a tank if you wanted...but not with the advanced technologies you claimed (EM field reduction/elimination, visual signature virtual elimination, Radar elimination, IR signature elimination).

You even went so far as to suggest I shouldn't even contemplate claiming development of a nuclear weapon (which I've never done) until I had a population of at least 250 million. Now I truly wish that thread hadn't been deleted in purges so I could directly reference these gems.

I said the standard was 250million, which was emplaced by others than myself (such as those at the Nationstates University (http://invisionfree.com/forums/NSU/)) in order to prevent new nations from abusing nuclear weapons. This failed but since then the use of nuclear weapons in normal RPs has become anathema enough to be generally limited in use (although they're still used more than is reasonable). I don't dispute that you could've built a tank with a pop of 30m or that Eurusea could've built a plane at his current size. But that tank would not be an all-aspect stealth tank and that plane would not be a 2,000 foot wingspan monster.

You cited a science fiction writer as your evidence that you shouldn't be limited /at all/ technologically.

As opposed to nations like Syskeyia that can't be allowed to lose because they're the "good guys?" To my knowledge, Eurusea has systematically developed and constructed every facet of their "overwhelming force" being used, and have demonstrated it in other threads. It happens. If the Five Kingdoms of Melkor Unchained were to invade my nation, I'd be forced to concede overwhelming force in his billions of orcs, in spite of the strengths of my nation. I'm less interested in what Eurusea is using to attack and more interested in why.
Eurusea is interested in what he's using more than how. Syskeyia is also interested in what Eurusea is using more than why.

Ummm, as for Eurusea having developed the technology...you should /really/ bother looking at peoples' posting histories...he has 19 posts and hasn't posted in more than 4 NS threads on record. He is apparently either a long-running puppet nation (2.235Bn pop) or a nation that only posted long ago (and had its posts purged). It wouldn't hurt for him to share some of that construction of his force with the rest of us when we ask to know more about it.

Personally, I never said that Syskeyia "had to win." If nations engaged in an RP would like to, OOCly, establish some rules and limits then all the more power to them. If the other RP'ers don't want to play by the rules then either they don't have to RP with him or he (or she) doesn't have to RP with them (depending upon whose RP it is). As a nation being attacked, it's perfectly reasonable to OOCly state that one would like to have no net change of territory although the interim is up for grabs (the Omz-Sniper Country war had a quite complicated OOC arrangement about the final results but in the mean time they had a helluvan RP).

If Melkor invaded you then you'd be left to developing counters or being overrun. If Melkor is asked why he decided to invade you and only responded "The miserable scum of Treznor have opposed the Five Kingdoms of Angband for too long." Then that would be almost the whole of the "why" and Treznor, the state, would still be overrun. Exciting RP, huh? I'd prefer to figure out interesting ways of using modern tech to combat his futuretech if it really came down to it...so many have failed before (somehow moderntech losing to futuretech/fantasytech isn't surprising)...but more likely than not I'd ignore his IC nation since he exists on a different plane than I. This is because I probably would like to avoid the issues where systems that should work just "magically" don't.

Yes, this is Syskeyia's thread, and he referenced you directly. That still doesn't give you the moral rectitude to pass judgment on what anyone but Syskeyia is doing.
It's not a "moral" issue. I never claimed a "moral" high ground. I never claimed a need for "rectitude" or that I was passing a godsent judgement, that's what we'd call "projection" in psychology. Additionally, I was not called in to deal with matters relating to morals or rectitudes but rather in relation to the technology and RP actions made. He didn't "reference" me directly he said I should feel free to enter the debate about the technology and actions presented and my responses to it. He never referenced you, however, which, according to your advice, means that you should leave. Are you following your own advice? Or do you wish to "pass judgement" on my "moral rectitude"?

My point here is that what you've said to me so far about my involvement in this thread would logically exclude you from your very presence in the argument. That's catch-22.

Eurusea made the fatal mistake (as I have) of even dignifying your criticism with a response, but as in my case, he probably couldn't resist pointing out the utter futility of your contributions.
Treznor, too many of us dignified your very existence by responding to your first thread, much as Syskeyia has dignified Eurusea's RP with a response. If it's a fatal mistake it is only because you seem unprepared to actually answer on the level of the disagreement (ie, is it possible for these systems/actions to exist/occur within the fairly moderntech frame of syskeyia's reality) but instead you have resulted to grinding your axe about your first tech venture that was shot down for similar reasons.

Professional aviators, engineers and scientists all said the Goose would never leave the ground, until it actually took to the air. That I'm aware of, the science of aerodynamics still hasn't explained why a bumblebee can fly.

The flight of a bumblebee is built on complex aerodynamics that are not aircraft aerodynamics. The current prevailing theory about bumblebees and about certain other insects endowed with flight is that they "stall" their wings and then perform a maneuver that takes advantage of the air currents to propell themselves with a greater efficiency than would be though possible with the old up-and-down model.

Not everyone said the Goose couldn't fly. That was actually mainly politicians and the media. The engineers that built it and others knew that if the plane could get enough lift and maintain its structural integrity (the main issue for the "Spruce Goose" was the concern about the structural integrity of the plane) then it would work. Engineers are a cautious bunch, they wouldn't design an aircraft that has no possibility of flying. They put wings on the Goose with enough surface area to provide lift, and specifiedthe proper wing sculpting for it to fly, and they put enough hp in its engines to get it moving, and they put in the avionics to make it work, and they put in the landing systems so that it could land safely. The popular view isn't necessarily the scientific view.

In the end, however, while the Goose did fly it did not fly well enough or far enough to be of use since it actually started working after the problem it was designed to solve was relieved...and since it never proved itself at long ranges or in extreme environments as a military transport plane would need to do.

I'm very happy that you've got such a firm grasp of modern science, but frankly, I'm not interested. Our technological history is replete with examples of things that "can't be done" until someone actually does it. War RP or character RP, I'm more interested in the story than I am confirming that X's science is better than Y's.

The history of science is also filled with moralists and outsiders who have promoted the impossible and burned the truthseekers for reasons that have nothing to do with the truth or the pursuit thereof, do you get my metaphor? Then why are you entering a debate about whether X's science is real? There is no "science better than another" as you would indicate, just as one cannot say that Mr. Darcy is better or worse than his fellow suitors.

Most of those "can't be done" examples are based on people who don't have a firm grasp of the science not believing in what science could entail. Da Vinci said you could make flying machines in the renaissance...and they couldn't be made in that time. They were made several hundred years later with vastly different designs (as helicopters). Saying that this gives anyone the right to claim anything is possible now for the fact that hundreds of years later someone might actually do it is calling science FICTION science REALITY.

I'm not asking anyone to stop writing science fiction, I love science fiction, but I am asking them to not say that science fiction is real and very much possible right now.

You are an authority on your own RP and your own technology. If Syskeyia wants to be your groupie, I'm happy for him. As far as I'm concerned, you have no business commenting on anyone else's technology (modern tech or no) or role-play.
What's your authority to comment upon anything again? Yea, that.

If you want people to be your groupie then find them...I don't have groupies so much as I have people that I can talk to about scientific and practical principles (CSJ, LRR, TEO, Sys, etc.). I don't dictate doctrine to them, I can't order them to do what I want, and I can't ask them to do anything for me...I can only discuss what we see and hear their opinions.

I can discuss the technology for its value in the field I have developed some knowledge in (moderntech and its possibilities) and that's all that I'm doing. I'm not going to jump in on your character RP to claim that "a person simply cannot be so deceitful" or "how could he have known that!?!" I haven't commented upon Eurusea's apparent back-story and I don't intend to...that's his business.

Now, if you promise to stick to your side instead of coming out with this OOC axe you have to grind I'll promise to keep my course and not invade Treznor ICly, without cause, without reason, without purpose other than that WA has suddenly become imperialistic and seeks the ground that Treznor sits on. It may not have an interesting back story, but that's what happened to millions of people worldwide when Europe decided that the rest of the world was its to claim...and in fact that the more you claimed was more prestige. It isn't logical, it isn't practical, and it didn't make much money for most of the nations (nations of the Iberian Peninsula being the major exception to this last bit).

I'm aware of that. And Eurusea is just trying to have his systems work perfectly without any effect on his own forces but with tremendous effect on his opponents...not exactly up your alley of complicated meddling.

She glanced across at the huge cloud of black smoke spreading from the sinking battleship Will of Stalin, her props already out of the water, turning slowly. As she watched, one of the old seaplanes broke loose from it's catapult and slid down the deck, sweeping dozens of men still trying to get off the deck into the sea. 'Damn meltdowns, they should have scrapped that fucking bucket of rust years ago.'

Battleships don't explode without being hit when they're working perfectly, genius.

Buy a ladder and use it to get over yourself.
Think about that snappy answer twice...no, it still doesn't make sense.

Your assumptions don't work? Bravo! Maybe your assumptions are wrong?
I was asking for your design, since my assumptions based on what the current technological base and materials would allow...and a failure on that front would mean that if my assumptions are wrong then your airplane does not conform to reality.

No, you're tossed out a set of stupid, unjustified assumptions and insisted that my aircraft must use one of them.

I'm basing my argument on what you provided (nuclear powered aircraft, BWB designs), which do not 'meld' with the idea of a 2,000 foot wingspan aircraft. You just tossed out a set of stupid, unjustified technologies and insisted that your aircraft somehow uses both of them.

Syskeyia accepts Menelmacari tech.
Okay, so do I, but I accept it as futuretech. I'm happy to RP with Siri on a personal level or even indirect level, but I wouldn't claim that it has any justification other than futuretech.

Since obviously neither of you two fine roleplayers would be so intellectually dishonest as to place an uneven burden of proof
You could just say "oh, I forgot to say, I'm future tech...that lets me get away with shit." And I'd accept it.

You're also placing an uneven burden of proof on me by arguing against my proof without providing your own, you realize?

I'm sure you have a snappy explaination as to why a 2,000ft span Leviathan is less realistic than a mile-plus gravitic dreadnought covered in Galvorn armour plate and firing coherent plasma bolts.

It isn't...but the mile-plus gravitic dreadnought covered in Galvorn armor plate and firing coherent plasma bolts isn't claimed to be compatible with moderntech. Siri is intellectually honest enough to never have claimed that. I know her player well enough OOCly to accept that she likes to RP with that and within the SiliWorld (the world of the Silmarillion, which both Melkor and Menelmacar have chosen to base their nations upon)...I don't consider it dishonest since she is open about her assumptions of a world where magic can, and does exist. I have a great deal of respect for the adjustments that Siri has made in the building of the Menelmacar empire within some general frame of a vastly distorted RL earth...but she doesn't say it isn't so.

Additionally, Menelmacar is proven in my eyes. Guess where you are if you can't either say that you're futuretech or that you have a reasonable explanation for your claims in moderntech?

Right?
Ummm, you still aren't.

I wont go any further in this tech discussion. WA, I just wanted to prove to you that there's tech for using waterjets as propulsion. You made a hasty decision of what I used and you were WRONG. Don't do that again. I'm all for balance in this game, and balance comes from realism or RP. If Syskeyia doesn't want to fight, he should try negotiations or trying to build up some support for him with powerful allies. Not trying to make some kind of META.-discussion about tech. You say that 95% of your tech is there today. Good for you! Does that mean I can ignore the other 5 % or declare it as impossible? You saying that problems will be solved in 5-10 years is as completely ludicrous in making your statements of realism as me saying that teleportation will be available in 10 years just because they have succeeded in teleport extremely small thingies. Science is forever changing views in what is feasible or not. Please refrain from destroying this RP more.

I haven't used anything of my Sci-Fi stuff, just because I wanted some balance in this RP. I promise you that you may complain as much as you want about my spacedystuff and their realism and I will happily comply that it is impossible. This IS a game, not RL.

Try to measure your techknowledgepenises in IRC instead of taking up valuable space in what could be a good RP.

Chimaea, my excuses for forgetting about you. Don't exactly know where in the gulf you were situated. But it's only me and a few Eurusean floating fortresses left there, it was meant to be a decoy, and as such it apparantly worked.

My two carrier groups are right now outside Bendicilim and the Gulf is full of mines. You may either sweep the mines or try to go around them. Whatever you choose to do, it will take you some time, and give me time to do what I came for. I'm not exactly sure where the other guys are. But so far Chimaea, Syskeyia and Pantacrotia is on one side, dunno about that black wolf guy. And Eurusea, EC, Abatoir, me and some more on the other side. Where I have no prescence in vicinity of St. Claver Peter Island.

<stupidity>

Guess what? I STILL don't care what your opinion is.

It isn't...but the mile-plus gravitic dreadnought covered in Galvorn armor plate and firing coherent plasma bolts isn't claimed to be compatible with moderntech.

Syskeyia contacted Menelmacar and asked her to be involved in this RP. Ball. Court. Yours.

One could also mention Sysk's very 'modern-tech' 2 billion-population Mars colony. Oops, looks like he's futuretech too. Where's your enlightened criticism on that, Master Yoda?

Guess where you are if you can't either say that you're futuretech or that you have a reasonable explanation for your claims in moderntech?

Find a point where I have claimed Eurusea is moderntech. Find ANYTHING that suggests it is. Where the hell did you get that idea from, exactly?

Personally, I never said that Syskeyia "had to win." If nations engaged in an RP would like to, OOCly, establish some rules and limits then all the more power to them. If the other RP'ers don't want to play by the rules then either they don't have to RP with him or he (or she) doesn't have to RP with them (depending upon whose RP it is). As a nation being attacked, it's perfectly reasonable to OOCly state that one would like to have no net change of territory although the interim is up for grabs (the Omz-Sniper Country war had a quite complicated OOC arrangement about the final results but in the mean time they had a helluvan RP).


That is what this thread is about. Not listening to what you believe is realistic or not. The first rule was set pretty early by Eurusea and it was "No spacedystuff" Just because we wanted to play this with nearfuture/moderntech RP. I have no problem that the tech I used so far is entirely feasible. Or do you say that NO big boats will move in 60 Knots? That it is impossible? My earlier link was only to prove that boats could move at that speed. You obviously wanted to misunderstand that. When it comes to naval and ground forces, I do the same as you. Basing it on modern tech and then adding some pretty realisitc extras. I don't want to spend hours researching, making me some kind of pseudo scientist. I agree with Eurusea, If I could come up with fantastic solutions that worked here, now. I would sell them and living on a west indian island instead.

And when it comes to The guys reaction on their radarscreen going blank for a while, fine, I would accepted an reaction. what I dont accept is you telling me how my tech SHOULD work according to you.

Now, could we stop this bitchfest and move on to the RP instead?

Battleships don't explode without being hit when they're working perfectly, genius.

Who said anything about the battleship? According to your description, the Will of Stalin was sunk by a melt down...which would presumably irradiate the entire area as it acted like a "dirty bomb" (a real WMD).

In any case, to avoid this red herring, I was talking about the nuclear powered airplane you claim and the lack of effects by EMP weapons. This has what to do with your battleships? Did I mention your battleships? Their reactors? Your nation's shoddy designs and maintenance system? No...so don't answer questions that haven't been asked and then go around wooping like you've won the argument.

From the same post:
'Fire off VLS cells Able to How, target major road interchanges, water purification, power stations, transformers and substations, communications antennas, runways, radar and large civilian buildings. Also target the military bases' civilian housing. Wait ten minutes, then discharge cells Item to Mike at schools, hospitals, churches, large assembly halls and police and fire stations.'

Didn't you just call EMP weapons WMDs because if they were used against hospitals and other civilian structures then they would be WMDs? I'd call that the kettle calling the chinaware teacup black.

<more stupidity>

What part of 'I do not care about your opinion' is failing to register?

That is what this thread is about.
Okay, and I firmly believe in that...so who has some suggestions or comments relative to that?

Find a point where I have claimed Eurusea is moderntech. Find ANYTHING that suggests it is. Where the hell did you get that idea from, exactly?
The first rule was set pretty early by Eurusea and it was "No spacedystuff" Just because we wanted to play this with nearfuture/moderntech RP.
Ummm, does that answer? It's not that you're moderntech but that the RP is.

I have no problem that the tech I used so far is entirely feasible. Or do you say that NO big boats will move in 60 Knots? That it is impossible? My earlier link was only to prove that boats could move at that speed.
You obviously wanted to misunderstand that.
No, it was you misunderstanding my argument that no BIG boats (notice the difference of emphasis) will move that fast with that tech. Small boats have, as your link reaffirmed, travelled at those speeds (albeit with reports of some rather serious and anomalous stability issues)...but a 40ton vessel is not a 40,000 ton vessel or a 100,000 ton vessel, still.

When it comes to naval and ground forces, I do the same as you. Basing it on modern tech and then adding some pretty realisitc extras. I don't want to spend hours researching, making me some kind of pseudo scientist.

And I congratulate you for not claiming 2,000 foot wingspanned aircraft.

And when it comes to The guys reaction on their radarscreen going blank for a while, fine, I would accepted an reaction. what I dont accept is you telling me how my tech SHOULD work according to you.
I'm saying what WOULD happen...radar readouts and Electromagnetic signals work in a pretty well-defined manner. As for that, a sector of the radar screen would go blank, not the whole thing (unless their radar only covered a small area centered on the exact location of your floating EMP balloons).

I was also talking initially about how MY tech that SYSKEYIA was using would be affected by others' actions...I think I have some right to comment there, especially when the action of others was accompanied by a claim that was misrepresentative of the reality.

Now, could we stop this bitchfest and move on to the RP instead?
I'm perfectly happy to have you all continue. It started with You and Eurusea saying some snide remarks about what I'd told Syskeyia privately *when Syskeyia asked me for my opinion* (and which were subsequently shared)...and I felt a need to respond, as I was invited to do.

Ummm, does that answer? It's not that you're moderntech but that the RP is.

No, it's not. There is a difference between futuretech and spacetech, last I checked. If I say 'no spacedyships and no battleship-armour suits' that's what I mean, not 'this thread is now exclusively modern tech only.'

Learn to read.

I'm aware of that. And Eurusea is just trying to have his systems work perfectly without any effect on his own forces but with tremendous effect on his opponents...not exactly up your alley of complicated meddling.

This indicates you mean all of it.

NOT

Who said anything about the battleship? According to your description, the Will of Stalin was sunk by a melt down...which would presumably irradiate the entire area as it acted like a "dirty bomb" (a real WMD).

In any case, to avoid this red herring, I was talking about the nuclear powered airplane you claim and the lack of effects by EMP weapons. This has what to do with your battleships? Did I mention your battleships? Their reactors? Your nation's shoddy designs and maintenance system? No...so don't answer questions that haven't been asked and then go around wooping like you've won the argument.


Now, you can either learn how to express yourself properly, or admit that you're not actually reading the things your 'opponents' have to say.

Reminds me...

Now, if you promise to stick to your side instead of coming out with this OOC axe you have to grind I'll promise to keep my course and not invade Treznor ICly, without cause, without reason, without purpose other than that WA has suddenly become imperialistic and seeks the ground that Treznor sits on.

Very, very, VERY reasonable. Threatening others IC for OOC reasons? Dude, you could have mentioned it earlier... That you just hit puberty, hence, you're kinda suffering from mental instability... Yes, the hormones...

This indicates you mean all of it.
No, it means I mean all of it within the context (meaning the aircraft). Logically, a plural doesn't mean all...it just means more than one.

Now, you can either learn how to express yourself properly, or admit that you're not actually reading the things your 'opponents' have to say.

I hadn't read the thread past where this argument covered...I found this thread directly and reviewed the areas that I'd previously referred to to confirm what I read there and what my response was at the time.

I even read the area he mentioned just then and brought in evidence against his own earlier argument out of the same post. He was using a number of logical fallacies with the primary one being a "Red Herring" (or bait and switch) which involves presenting an attractive topic for debate that is a tangent (usually from an intentional misinterpretation of language) from the primary argument (the nuclearpowered 2k foot aircraft) in order to bring down the argument of the victim of the ploy by dragging them into an area that they have no issue with (his nuclear battleships) and demanding that they oppose that idea as well (which would make them look foolish). The last part of this actually strays into what is called a "strawman" argument, which is what you and these others have used, where a false subject (the "strawman," which is usually also a red herring in and of itself) is set up and, since the "strawman" is not the tough issue of debate, they are easily victorious in a contest that is, truthfully, irrelevant.


If you can't read with a high-school reading level then you can blame a handful of teachers, but I'm sorry if you report a lack of basic understanding concerning the idea that "some" does not mean the same as "all." But do not mistake your misunderstanding for an imprecision of language on my part.

Now, since I've already explained one time that you've avoided "actually reading" what I've written, would you care to see another?

Very, very, VERY reasonable. Threatening others IC for OOC reasons? Dude, you could have mentioned it earlier... That you just hit puberty, hence, you're kinda suffering from mental instability... Yes, the hormones... I'm kidding. I have yet, in all of my time on NS, to do anything even closely resembling that. I was one of the people who helped establish the norm that such an act is a dumb idea, FYI (note, if you'd read the previous argument you'd see where I told the real participants of the RP that if I had wanted to really be involved in the events I'd have moved in a force ICly).

I will resist from delving into the biological and mental effects of puberty (which are different from mental instability) right now for the sake of time and a concise response, but I will try to open your mental limits to a level where you can understand the complexity of that statement.

Observe:

The reason I'm saying that is because Treznor is attacking me about my right to talk about IC things (1), which interest me, such as technology and science. He is doing this for personal or OOC (2) reasons. I was reversing it to mockingly threaten an IC thing that he admitted not caring about (3). He was also talking about what he is interested in, such as fantasy and the "human interest" aspects (1) in response to his OOC behavior [for OOC reasons] (2). At the same time, I've already said a few times that I have little interest in his IC interests (3) and that's why I used the phrase "without cause, without reason, without purpose." (that's mockery of his statement about caring about the "Why" rather than the "how" or "what").

Do you see the inversion of meanings in the line now? Did the numberings of the topically mirrored parts help you?

Sarcasm looks stupid when applied to the real, or to quote "it is better to sit silently and let people think you are a fool than to open your mouth and prove it."

I'm saying what WOULD happen...radar readouts and Electromagnetic signals work in a pretty well-defined manner. As for that, a sector of the radar screen would go blank, not the whole thing (unless their radar only covered a small area centered on the exact location of your floating EMP balloons).


So you agree with that now? Nice. I have no further comments then since that was what they were supposed to do... And now imagine tens of thousands of those balloons around the fleet and you might understand the purpose of these balloons


I was also talking initially about how MY tech that SYSKEYIA was using would be affected by others' actions...I think I have some right to comment there, especially when the action of others was accompanied by a claim that was misrepresentative of the reality.


Just say how they were affected, I dont need the tech explanation behind it. Haven't seen anyone but you demanding Specs on stuff.

and yes it was the Stena Line Ferry I travelled with, thus proving that you can move big boats and high speeds. even If I believe the Ferry only goes 40 knots when its in use.

Do you think we could scrap this thread now and move any important OOC information to new thread? Or delete all the bitching threads and leave to informative ones?