NationStates Jolt Archive

Just thought I'd vent some steam over the concept of nations owning land in the real world.

Y'see, this here is NationStates. It's a fine RPing site, in which anything and everything is possible to accomplish with a little elbow grease and the proper RPing skill. However, this makes for some interesting details, like high-tech elves, Orcs in spaceships, sentient walruses, nations of lawn gnomes, racist time-traveling confederate generals with space alien technology riding T-Rexes (obscure reference), etc.
In other words, stuff that has no place or purpose in the real world.
However, people see this and think, "Hey! I love my home state/town/country, I should make my nation own that!" or "Y'know, I always thought country X was cool... I think I'll take that."
But y'see people, the course of history of real Earth has already been set. It has not evolved catpeople, or elves, or even those crazy walrus deals that Vrak has. Which is where we come to the most simple conclusion that NS must be set on an entirely different planet from Earth, which has somehow managed to spawn humans.

Which brings me to the concept of "Earth II", meaning not only is there a real-world Earth planet, but there's also a second one identical to it in every way. This would mean that the planet would have to be in the same orbital position around Sol as the original in order to maintain the same climate, among other things, which would mean that it would be in the exact same place as Earth 1. Which brings me to my central question of "what in the fuck?", a question that is echoed throughout this piece. Would a nation on Earth II exist in the exact same space as the nation from Earth 1?
Let's give the Earth 1-2 system the benefit of the doubt, and say that it does indeed work, and that there are two seperate planets, both Earthworlds. How the hell then would a nation from Earth 1 attack Earth 2? Most of the nations that use the real-earth system are modern tech, so that rules out space travel. But no, that doesn't seem to hinder anyone. Communist Mississippi, an Earth 2 nation, has had its share of strife from residents of Earth 1.

In short, the system is fucked and you just wasted some of your life reading what is summed up in this bottom sentence.

Comments? Questions?

Good point, Resi. I believe the main point of Earth I and II was so people would be able to directly correlate their NS nation to the real world, giving nations (some of them at least) a form of legitimacy and "proof" of their existence. On the other hand, it has been established (god knows how many times) that the "Earth" that exists within NS is either actually several thousand or even million times bigger than it is now, a planet capable of handling the many nations on NS, or there are several different Earth-realities. However, this "big" planet does not seem to be the answer as for many nations, they are unable to feel and connect with such a concept. Therefore, they created these two Earths and quite possibly, more will exist...

First off, I dont know about others, but I ignore Earth II claims. Thats just a sad idea, really that desperate for territory...

Second, The way I play, real life earth is just a portion of the NS world. A strange portion, but nontheless...

Good point, Resi. I believe the main point of Earth I and II was so people would be able to directly correlate their NS nation to the real world, giving nations (some of them at least) a form of legitimacy and "proof" of their existence. On the other hand, it has been established (god knows how many times) that the "Earth" that exists within NS is either actually several thousand or even million times bigger than it is now, a planet capable of handling the many nations on NS, or there are several different Earth-realities. However, this "big" planet does not seem to be the answer as for many nations, they are unable to feel and connect with such a concept. Therefore, they created these two Earths and quite possibly, more will exist...
The Crisis on Multiple Earth... (another reference, less obscure this time) :p

See, that's why I have the Corporate Islands, because it could quite literally be anywhere. I don't have to deal with all that different planet crap, or large world crap, I just have my own little imaginary islands made out for me, and I'm damn happy to have them.

First off, I dont know about others, but I ignore Earth II claims. Thats just a sad idea, really that desperate for territory...

Second, The way I play, real life earth is just a portion of the NS world. A strange portion, but nontheless...
That second idea of yours is a good'n, I think I'll adopt it. I mean, it's sort of a compromise on both sides, and it actually works.

I don't really care about Earth claims, they just annoy me in being so pointless and impossible. They rarely effect strategy in any way that matters, other than if the land is desert, or tundra, or mountains, or whatever. Just stuff you could simulate with fake land.

First off, I dont know about others, but I ignore Earth II claims. Thats just a sad idea, really that desperate for territory...

ROFLMAO!

Errr... Anyway. Two things:

Pro RL- Territories: You have definite maps, a clear geography, and stuff. Locating your NS nation in an RL territory (starting out there) is thusly completely understandable. It does make things easier.

Hence, not necessarily a bad idea.

Contra RL- Territories: They seem to be used as some kind of compensation during puberty.

No opposing players (that play the nation invaded), apparently, the natives just CRY WITH JOY when the SUPERIOR WHITE LIBERATORS join and HELP THEM in a shiny neocolonialist manner.

And of course, owning a whole lot of RL territories makes you look OMG HUGE!

Absolutely hilarious examples (Chellis, wherever he is, Menelmacar/ California & Alaska just 'dividing' the US in a desperate attempt of proving how OMG PWRFUL they are (In the case of C&A, desperate attempts of 'owning' RL territories all over the world to 'show off' superior breeding capabilities or something... Without either backstory OR RP), Menelmacar, again, in the Congo, just going 'Oh, yes, RL stuff happens here, too', Scandavian States 'KUWAIT WANTED ME TO HELP, I HAEV THEIR OIL!!!11' Last one not verified, just heard about it, so it may be incorrect are of course easy to find...

And then comes the bitching 'Hey, I own that, YUO GODMODER!!11, completely ignoring problems like, say, no one being able to read all the goddamn threads.

AND the hilarious ignorance of the nations/ players participating not checking for RL theme RP regions (Like, say, africa... For the record, AFAIK, the nations there start out in their territories, hence, I respect it, since it isn't sheer OMG HUGENESS colonialism), or rather, ignoring them, because this regions happen to be a 'lil OMG HUGER than our wannabe colonialists.

And you cannot really be a colonialist nation when the natives are capable of stomping you with ease. Hence, the natives CANNOT EXIST.

Or so it seems.

I agree with your one pro for the real territories - to a point. And that point is when multiple nations start claiming the same territory, as you said. People owning Africa when there's already an Africa region, etcetra. Then, of course, there's Earth II, made in a desperate attempt to solve all those "OMGz!11! DAT LAND IS T3H MINE!!11!one" disagreements, in which two nations claw each others eyes out OOC for a piece of imaginary real-world land.

Which brings me to the concept of "Earth II", meaning not only is there a real-world Earth planet, but there's also a second one identical to it in every way. This would mean that the planet would have to be in the same orbital position around Sol as the original in order to maintain the same climate, among other things, which would mean that it would be in the exact same place as Earth 1. Which brings me to my central question of "what in the fuck?", a question that is echoed throughout this piece. Would a nation on Earth II exist in the exact same space as the nation from Earth 1?
Can we get a Quinn Mallory or a Maximillian Arturo in here? Any version that invented sliding will suffice.

--The Jovial States of Cogitation
"Laugh about it for a moment."
NationStates Self-Proclaimed Court Jester

Learn to coexist people! Drop these RL claims, they bring nothing but problems.

Earth II was created because of Earth I, the nations that had no territory there could go up against owners of Earth I territory or start a new thread where they could have territory of their own. Most nations choose the latter(in some cases after wars with Earth I nations, Sevaris=Chellis).

And both RL claims threads should dissapear, get replaced by one thread in which each nation can say where it is on the Worldmap. Allow different people to own the same RL country (there are atleast 8 nations who 'own' Greece). That will also stop the ridiculous RPs of NS nations fighting RL factions.

Dear Chellis, offcourse you ignore Earth II(or any other coexistence idea), it allows you to take advantage of newcomers like Sevaris. Your Earth I claims are just as ridiculous as your Satelites argument.

I generally regard the NS world as some sort of unholy hybrid between a Ringworld and Earth- it seems like transit times are as fast, if not faster than on Earth, and gravity is the same, but there is enough room for 800,000 nations, many of which are larger or as large as any nation on the planet.

...it seems like transit times are as fast, if not faster than on Earth...That's usually due to a combination of people either ignoring logistics, conveniently placing their nation near the territory they're invading, or having crazy-go-nuts technology.

What nations who base their nation on RL earth? For example, The Trojan Empire is based in Asia Minor.

Second, The way I play, real life earth is just a portion of the NS world. A strange portion, but nontheless...

I do the same thing.

Santa Barbara is a real place, but Santa Barbara in NS is definitely not it.

RL SB has much better weather and doesn't have as many spaceships.

I generally regard the NS world as some sort of unholy hybrid between a Ringworld and Earth- it seems like transit times are as fast, if not faster than on Earth, and gravity is the same, but there is enough room for 800,000 nations, many of which are larger or as large as any nation on the planet.
I've always maintained that "Earth" in NationStates is a ringworld or dyson sphere of some sort, that for some reason has modern-tech nations on it. Earth I/II are just sections of the ring with real-world continents on it.

The entire reason I have a space nation is because Earth is so damn confusing in this game. :D

Umm, not all nations in NS are based on Earth

in which anything and everything is possible to accomplish with a little elbow grease and the proper RPing skill.I disagree, but that's just an issue of personal taste.
But y'see people, the course of history of real Earth has already been set.I mostly use the geography (with some changes), but not the history or culture. Point of divergence: A very long time ago (http://members.aol.com/dalecoz/alt1098.htm).
How the hell then would a nation from Earth 1 attack Earth 2?I pointed out to Yerffej that it wouldn't work, but he doesn't seem bothered by that.
On the other hand, it has been established (god knows how many times) that the "Earth" that exists within NS is either actually several thousand or even million times bigger than it is now, a planet capable of handling the many nations on NS, or there are several different Earth-realities.Not everyone accepts that.
First off, I dont know about others, but I ignore Earth II claims.So do I.
Pro RL- Territories: You have definite maps, a clear geography, and stuff. Locating your NS nation in an RL territory (starting out there) is thusly completely understandable. It does make things easier.I think that was my reason for using RL territory.
No opposing players (that play the nation invaded), apparently, the natives just CRY WITH JOY when the SUPERIOR WHITE LIBERATORS join and HELP THEM in a shiny neocolonialist manner.This is part of why I also ignore invasions of RL countries. The other part is that if no one in NS bases his/her nation in that RL land, I don't consider it existing in NS.

Forgive me if I'm phucking this up, but I have heard an interesting theory of sliding realities. In that system, everything is true, in an infinite number of divirgent realities. Every time a new nation is created, the existance splits and they take form in their own world, with their own history. Some realities are molded together, and become one (hence regions and alliances that are really old and still RP together), while others drift out of phase and lose contact forever (IGNORE! N00B!). This also explains how some people can own the world... in their reality, or how the earth can be OMGZ I KIL T3H WURLD!!111LOLOLOLOLOL :TWISTED: so many times. The main benefit, though, would be explaining how nations "die" in-game. They simply phase out, to another dimension.

(It would also solve the whole launching into space thing. Could you imagine how intensely overcrowded orbits are right now? The millions of comms satellites, GPS satellites, spysats, and of course, NUKES IN SPAAAACE would make it hell to find a launch window.)

I thought that was a cool idea, but it does bring its own share of problems, such as people trying to manipulate the shifting, as well as a complete re-structure of RP to account for livving in such a fluid multiverse.

In a rather sad note, I already planned an RP in this kind of world, just because.

I dunno, but it's just an idea.

(The other idea was more conspiracy-ish, about an ancient race that created many identical Sol Systems in diffent galaxies, but meh. That wouldn't work because people from different places interact.)

I dunno about you, but I prefer to NOT think about how drastically unstable the fiber of reality is in NationStates.

Oh, and why the heck is this in the NationStates forum? It seemed like more of a Gameplay issue to me.

Lovecraftian fractal reality--everyone can RL claim whatever they want to and as long as it's internally consistent with the clique they operate in, the OMG INSANITY OF THE ELDER GODS!!! is avoided.

Seems to be the easiest answer that steps on the least toes--any toes that get stepped on would be from two people who claim the same thing and thus would complain anyway. Earth I/II transition is perfectly feasible as reordering of the fractal reality as determined by perception; it also explains away 'oops that nation just disappeared/got ignore-cannoned/suddenly appeared from nowhere.'

If reality doesn't follow your rules, then obviously your rules leave something to be desired. :)

A very good post, Scolo, but through all the perception-of-reality business, you overlooked one detail.

What if one nation that owns a plot of land (for the purpose of example, let's say Russia) on Earth 1, wants to attack the Russia on Earth 2. They'd both be in the same time and space if thier realities were to become one, so would that make it a civil war, or would they simply be two different Russias, somehow able to have a decent war with logistics and all while occupying the exact same plot of land?

Scandavian States 'KUWAIT WANTED ME TO HELP, I HAEV THEIR OIL!!!11'

[Er, right. The whole Kuwait thing was for the benefit of wrapping up an ongoing storyline that started all the way back in December, IIRC. I don't count Kuwait's economy or population as part of my nation, both are so insignificant as to be drops in the ocean compared to mine. It was more of something to do in the middle of an RP lull, I don't plan for it to have any real bearing on how I conduct myself now or in the future.]

ROFLMAO!

Errr... Anyway. Two things:

Pro RL- Territories: You have definite maps, a clear geography, and stuff.

And, history, of course. *cough*

No opposing players (that play the nation invaded), apparently, the natives just CRY WITH JOY when the SUPERIOR WHITE LIBERATORS join and HELP THEM in a shiny neocolonialist manner.
LOL! I think I'll call this "the Belem syndrome." :)

Absolutely hilarious examples (Chellis, wherever he is, Menelmacar/ California & Alaska just 'dividing' the US in a desperate attempt of proving how OMG PWRFUL they are (In the case of C&A, desperate attempts of 'owning' RL territories all over the world to 'show off' superior breeding capabilities or something... Without either backstory OR RP),

Yeah, that was funny. Since Siri is "you've got to accept all of me or ignore me completely" and I recognize Siri, I just accept that is happening... in 2017. True, I did get involved in the West African States RP and WAS said he was in 2020 or something, but I just said that said date was "Ouidah reckoning" and said it was in 2004. Ah well- the RP was good (while it lasted).

C&A, however, has a completely ludicrous backstory- starting off in 1999, declaing independance and everybody accepts it, and then C&A just gobbles up state after state and the US does nothing about it.

Menelmacar, again, in the Congo, just going 'Oh, yes, RL stuff happens here, too',

Actually, that was a good RP, but Siri got stuck at work and I was on a trip at that time, so...

Personally, I just say my country is "somewhere in Southeast Asia" and it's a completely fictional country. You can reach Syskeyia by land from China, though- that's an established fact (at least in my backstory.)

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

A very good post, Scolo, but through all the perception-of-reality business, you overlooked one detail.

What if one nation that owns a plot of land (for the purpose of example, let's say Russia) on Earth 1, wants to attack the Russia on Earth 2. They'd both be in the same time and space if thier realities were to become one, so would that make it a civil war, or would they simply be two different Russias, somehow able to have a decent war with logistics and all while occupying the exact same plot of land?
That's their problem to figure out; not ours. We are (or at least like to pretend like we are) rational mature people here. If two Russias want to fight, there's nothing stopping them from figuring out some way to do so. If they can't figure a way out, then that is where agreeing to disagree comes in.

So yes, actually, that circumstance is covered.

So, Scolo, Lovecraft invented the shifting realities idea? Curiouser and curiouser, I say. That settles it, then... I'm cooking up a post about my nation coming to a revelation on the nature of reality. WEE!

In the game, my nation is a series of huge islands in the Pacific. Nowhere in the real world, but there in mine.

That's their problem to figure out; not ours. We are (or at least like to pretend like we are) rational mature people here. If two Russias want to fight, there's nothing stopping them from figuring out some way to do so. If they can't figure a way out, then that is where agreeing to disagree comes in.

So yes, actually, that circumstance is covered.
But then there's always the possibility that their perception of what happens conflicts with our perception of what happens. In other words, what they do in their universe could go against some of the laws we have set up in our universes. I'll give you a personal example.

Nanosoft, the delegate of my region, decided in the most ass way possible to attack the nation of Kahta, which has both an insane sociopath for a ruler (who doesn't consider the ramifacations of such things as nukes before he uses them) and an alliance of strong nations backing it. Fortunately, I'm only obligated to defend him if he is ever agressed upon, so I'd theoretically be fine.
The problem is, of course, the nukes.
As we all know, nukes like to spread harmful radiation around. If Kahta launched a nuke at Nano, then the radiation would spread to me and I would be attacked, therefore giving me a reason to launch an assult on Kahta.
So far there are no OOC problems, but that's what I'm getting to.
Y'see, Kahta and the rest of his alliance are all modern tech, as was Nano for the duration of combat. I am future tech. According to Kahta and his cheif ally The Attican Empire, I didn't exist to them, so I couldn't retaliate if I was harmed by the radiation. However, they did exist to me, so I would be harmed by their nuke.

With a level of interaction between the two Earths as high as I think it will be, this sort of stuff will happen all the time, except with worlds instead of time periods.

...
Dammit, when did NS get to be so bloody existentialist?

Leaving out the thinly-veiled insults directed at certain nations, there is a single, overriding reason why it is easier to pretend your nation is a part of RL Earth:

Maps

Without this (completely spurious and extremely tenuous) link to some sort of objective reality, it would become nearly impossible to accomplish any of the usual roleplaying that we do.

Case in point (pulled out of my ass for the purposes of this example):

Nation1: Hey! I've got a great idea! Let's have a war.

Nation2: Sounds good to me. I'm an island nation near Blubberbutt Atoll.

Nation1: Where the hell is that?

Nation2: It's located about 600 kilometers southeast of the nation of BigBadWolf, in the Starvation Ocean.

Nation1: I have never heard of any of those places.


Note that I used the "utter n00b" version of conducting a war, just because it is easier and faster.

The simple fact is that there isn't any sane way to conduct trade, wars, etc in this type of game without a universally-accepted map. The closest anyone can get to that is the RL map of Earth.

Furthermore, wars, trade, etc are all based at some level on the geography (and hence resources) of the various nations. If everyone builds their own nation as a massive storehouse of natural resources, there's no reason for them to do any of the usual roleplaying activity, because they can build or grow everything themselves.

Another point in favor of using RL Earth as the home for NS is that it gives players an excuse to interact with others. My nation is located on a continent in the middle of the Pacific (where one doesn't exits in RL), solely for the purpose of giving me an "interest zone". I keep a wary eye on anything that happens in the Pacific because that is where my nation is located. This has resulted in several non-aggression treaties, two wars, and a plethora of posts wherein my nation begins meddling in the affairs of others- just like it happens in RL.

Until and unless some brave soul develops (and tries to maintain) a map of each tech level in the game, then some sort of common ground is a requirement. At the moment, that common ground is Earth.


My brace of small copper coins.

TEO

Normally people would have a general idea where a nation is before going to war with it...
That point aside, n00b wars are too pointless to be given consideration to, anyway. As for real wars, the agressor usually determines the logistics with his first troop movement, which sets the stage for the rest of the war.

You support the real Earth, yet you exist on a ficticious contenent? Now I'm confused. :confused:
Your point about interaction with neighbors sounds suspiciously like the region system that NS has always employed. This system does not and has never hinged on an Earthworld.

The commonly agreed upon map point I'll concede, but that was conceded long ago. Besides, there are several workarounds to having a map.

Normally people would have a general idea where a nation is before going to war with it...

Something I always recommend, but have seen all too rarely. However, it is simpler when both players (who may not speak the same language or have the same cultural tendencies) have something in common to work with.

That point aside, n00b wars are too pointless to be given consideration to, anyway.

I used the "n00b" version merely for the sake of simplicity. A discussion in greater depth would have gone one far too long for the purpose of the post. I will simply point out one fact regarding a well-roleplayed war that demands either a shared map or a long period of online discussions: Strategic goals.

If the purpose of war were to gain access to greater resources (this was alluded to in my first post), then it would behoove both sides to know where the resources are. Few players are willing to spend the time to create a consistent and rational geography- complete with natural resources and terrain when there is a perfect example available in any geography text.

As for real wars, the aggressor usually determines the logistics with his first troop movement, which sets the stage for the rest of the war.

I'm assuming that by real wars you mean well-roleplayed wars. Again, the geography determines the strategic objectives. To use just one example from WW II: the Allied air raid on Ploesti. Again, it is easier to use a map of Earth than to invent a new planet (with internally-consistent geography, weather, etc) for a war, only to be forced to create an entirely new one when a different enemy shows up who wasn't part of the first one. If you want any continuity at all, it is easier to use Earth.

You support the real Earth, yet you exist on a fictitious continent? Now I'm confused. :confused:

Using the maps of Earth is simpler than forcing one's own version of the NS world on everyone else. I decided that the only way the Evil Overlord could be a nation would be to have something on the order of Mordor, so my friends and I invented the continent of Forlorn Hope and invented a geography for it (we each have a copy of the original maps that we use for our instant-messenger roleplaying). In order to interact with the rest of the players in the game- many of whom were using Earth in lieu of a universally agreeable NS map- I chose a location in the southern and central Pacific after reading the Moon Pool.

Your point about interaction with neighbors sounds suspiciously like the region system that NS has always employed. This system does not and has never hinged on an Earthworld.

Not at all. Most "regions" are not really regions in the geographic sense, but are rather closer to loose alliances. My region is just the continent of Forlorn Hope. Using the nations that have claimed RL territories as neighbors gives me a sphere of influence and interest. This gives me a reason to tell one nation not to try invading Australia (which geography dictates should be a major trading partner with me), enter into a base-sharing agreement with Western Asia (who has a base on Midway that I wanted to use for reconnaissance), and try to prevent an general invasion of the Korean peninsula by stationing troops and aircraft along the Yalu river to prevent Mallberta from overrunning Asia.

It also gave me a reason to occupy and fortify various islands and archipelagos across the southern Pacific for use as military bases.

The roleplaying we do is essentially a group writing exercise. Anyone who has participated in one of these is familiar with the continuity problems caused when some of the participants are unfamiliar with the history or geography behind the story. If you were unfamiliar with the conditions of the legendary American West at the close of the 19th century, would you understand the stories?

To write an internally consistent storyline, a map is essential. In the absence of a map of the game, many people prefer to use RL Earth.

The commonly agreed upon map point I'll concede, but that was conceded long ago. Besides, there are several workarounds to having a map.

There are indeed. However, that is often too much work for some of our players. Always look at the path of least resistance. In this case, it is easier to use the planet we are all most familiar with.

Due to the overwhelming popularity of the game, however, just about every scrap of RL land is controlled by someone else about three times over- even if you only consider the players who use only modern technology.

I personally have little use for the adherents of Earth II, although I understand why they have chosen it. They would be better served to create an Earth II region and roleplay only with other region members- except for the overwhelming power held by the region founder and/or UN Delegate.

The simplistic rules of the game have helped create this situation. Unless a decent geography is created and constantly updated, you'll just have to pick and choose whom you will and will not ignore.

Just like we've always done.


TEO

Sidenote: I dunno if anyone else caught it, but I loved the Turok reference in Resi's first post.

In regard to Resi's statements that the Earth will never spawn Elves or other fantasy tech, I personally enjoy having a RL nation as my basis (the tiny little inhospitable island of Hokkaido, property of Japan), along with Elves and all that other fun fantasy stuff. So, desipite what logic may dictate, I'm going to run my stuff the was I see fit, whether or not another likes it. In regard to the Earth II situation, I feel it's not the best solution to the territory problem, but they can do what they see fit. I'd still roleplay with an Earth II nation ('course, I don't know who is because I really don't care where you are unless I'm at war with you, or how many millions of square kilometers of empty sea you own or whatever), but for the most part I follow Chellis' doctrine. Just my two cents. Not totally agreeing, not totally disagreeing.

C&A, however, has a completely ludicrous backstory- starting off in 1999, declaing independance and everybody accepts it, and then C&A just gobbles up state after state and the US does nothing about it.

Haha, I remember when Popular Science actually ran a simulation of what would happen if California seceeded from the Union. Needless to say, Cali got pwned.

In the end, logic is always going to be bent in the interest of good RP. Or bad RP.