NationStates Jolt Archive

This has been bothering me for some time now, since I made my return to NS back in June. Previously, when I left in september of 2003, people had very few qualms with the stuff called "FutureTech"......not many people complained about the occasional Super-Dreadnought, starships made the occasional 'Modern' appearance, and powered armor was an accepted item to posess, if you had a good reason. Or at least it all seemed that way to me then.

Now, suddenly, its almost a year later, and the 'modern-age' nations hate anything that even seems like it might be inspired by FutureTech. I've seen more and more, nations screaming if you dont use stuff from between WWII and Modern-Day US, you're a "Godmoder' and a crappy RPer. If you ARE 'modern-day' and possess something like, say, a "Super-Dreadnought", you are considered 'stupid, godmoding, foolish' and the list goes on...and of course there's ABSOLUTLEY NO WAY YOU CAN EFFECTIVELY USE THAT! is the rallying cry.

I can understand being pissed with 'modern' or 'future' nations that claim to have something hugely powerful, but absolutely no weaknesses to offbalance. I'll tell you right off, my own -MODERN- nation is built with several glaring flaws...and I utilize a form of 'FutureTech' as well. I see no reason why 'Modern-Age' nations are so rabidly against any sort of technologial advancement.

Now, in counter, if everything I've said is absolutely wrong, I ask, and EXPECT someone to refute me and correct my mis-perceptions. I'll tell you one thing, though--Perception is EVERYTHING, so often. And unfortunately, this is what I've percieved. So please. Correct me if I've seen wrong, but keep the flames away. I'm just stating what I've observed.

I know what you mean, and the explanation isn't 100% clear. But, generally speaking, with the rise of nations using free-form rp-ed warfare to determine the future course of their nation, modern-tech states get very antsy when their calculations are thrown out of sorts by a hitherto-unknown piece of opposition hardware.

I too am modern era, and I also use some elements of near-future technology, indeed, the development and sale of that technology is a major foreign currency earner. I have, however, been loathe to use some of it for fear of the above mentioned chastisement.

Given the understandable desire to avoid losing, the natural reaction of someone hit by a piece of not-quite-current hardware is to attack the point of greatest contention... ie, the point which lost the reciever the war... usually the near-future-tech itself, and/or how it was factored into the RP

Y'know, that brings up a side thought here regarding that. Sometimes, a nation's only chance lies in the 'FutureTech', against a much larger, much more powerful enemy. Without that edge given by some non-conventional weapon or technology, they'd never stand a chance.
I dunno, I'm of the RP school that it doesn't so much matter what you've got, as much as how you use it (and therefore, how you RP the deal. I can see a good RP of a low-tech guy taking out a high tech big guy--vietnam is a perfect example of that happening in real life...well...minus the 'good' part, since it wasnt exactly good..but thats a whole can o worms I'm not even thinkin of opening here.)

Basically, your tech doesnt equal your RP ability (Ie, just because you can RP 1800s level technology vs the guy who does "Star Trek-Style" tech doesnt mean the 1800s guy is an Excellent RPer and the Star Trek guy is a 'munchkin', for lack of a better term. It just means you've got a command of historical knowledge, whereas the other guy has an imagination for the future.), so all these "FUTURE TECH GODMODER" things are really foolish in and of themselves.

Concur. I'm not defending the position, as it has irked me on more than one occasion.... I am attempting to explain it... but your points are valid. It seems the intent of an RP is being lost on the NS forums of late...

Understood, and taken as such. It just happened to inspire a couple more comments outta me.

I think its because someone saw someone else do it, and then did it themselves which in turn someone else saw and so on. Really the only problem I have seen with Modern tech nations screaming at future tech nations, is when it is a near future nation, trying to use some technology that is being researched in rl.

There's nothing wrong with future tech. My nation tends to hover around 2070, with certain stuff that's probably even more advanced.

Like all things, however, the problem isn't with the tech it's with the players. If you decide to make your OMFG KILLINAT0R! spacedy ship with 30 hectameters of dark-matter amor and OMFG MIND BULLETS, then the problem should be evident. It's how you play the tech. I've got a neural network for my nation, but it's limited, and it's used a flavor to describe the nation as opposed to bludgeoning people with my tech.

The other thing to consider is who you're roleplaying with. If you're playing with a modern-techer (say, AMF) you have to accept that and leave the mind bullets and plasma weapons at home; just like you wouldn't be cruising around in a tank for a roleplay in 1295, you shouldn't be zooming around in a gravship in 2004. If you don't want to limit yourself to "modern" era, don't play with modern nations. Find future tech nations and roleplay with them. Lord knows there's enough stuff going on around Io.

Tech levels are far more important in war, however. I don't tend to be involved in wars, so tech differences are rather irrelevant. Dread Lady Nathicana have spacedy tech and rubs elbows with Zero-One and the rest of the Triumverate of Yut. I'm not that advanced, but I can interact with her just fine. Why? Because when two people are talking to each other, tech is far less of a concern. If you teleport to the restaurant and I drive my Model A Ford, we're still just having lunch.

Agreed - the still just having lunch part is very important and is often overlooked in NS. Future-tech is just a setting for a story in my opinion - not the reason for the story (well, except when one is writing a tech thread or similar). Stories should revolve around characters - whether that be an individual, a nation, or a mix of the two. If you keep technology firmly in the background and the actions, motivations, and conflicts of your characters in the foreground the technological era they operate in becomes flavor.

An example: Future tech nations are growing ever larger - they experience the stress of a growing population and need to relieve that stress. What do they do with that excess population? It is really the same problem a modern nation would have and the solution might be much the same - go to war (kill off those extra people), found a colony (and tell the story of those colonists), or succumb to a plague. A future-tech nation might dispatch ships to find a new colony world, and a modern tech nation might consider expanding off-world.

The methods might vary, but the reasons are usually the same story. It's how you tell the story and write the actions of the characters therein that is important - not the fact that I have technology X and you don't. Nah.... :P

Tech is the modern magic. I think the big complaint is that people went to war so they could have fun yelling "RAWR!" at each other. But even in modern times, technology is very important. Targets that might have required carpet bombing to hit once before can be taken out with a reconnaisance drone and a single cruise missile. This creates a huge disparity in the ability to wage war, and for that reasons modern tech nations (correctly) feel a significant disadvantage against future tech. it means they're likely to lose.

Ignoring the fact that this is supposed to be a cooperative role-play environment, and the notion of "winning" or "losing" is laughable, people hate to lose. They don't like it when the swarm of cruise missiles they just sent at their foes got blown up to the last from superior point defense technology. After all, if you were facing a charge of heavy cavalry when you had a good tripod-mounted machine gun at your disposal, wouldn't you mow them down before they could kill you? At which point you claim victory.

It's easy for magic or tech to take over the RP and become the whole point of it. Especially when you pull something out of that nebulous side universe affectionately known as "ass space" and declare an action that's wholly unfeasible and unsupportable. I'm not really happy role-playing with magic-based nations because there's so much you can do with it for so little penalty. Mind-reading in particular is murder to character role-play. As for the supertech nations, as has already been stated, I try to make technology part of the background and focus more on the personal interactions. Politics is still politics, regardless of the technology behind the nations.

Y'know, that brings up a side thought here regarding that. Sometimes, a nation's only chance lies in the 'FutureTech', against a much larger, much more powerful enemy. Without that edge given by some non-conventional weapon or technology, they'd never stand a chance.
I dunno, I'm of the RP school that it doesn't so much matter what you've got, as much as how you use it (and therefore, how you RP the deal. I can see a good RP of a low-tech guy taking out a high tech big guy--vietnam is a perfect example of that happening in real life...well...minus the 'good' part, since it wasnt exactly good..but thats a whole can o worms I'm not even thinkin of opening here.)

Basically, your tech doesnt equal your RP ability (Ie, just because you can RP 1800s level technology vs the guy who does "Star Trek-Style" tech doesnt mean the 1800s guy is an Excellent RPer and the Star Trek guy is a 'munchkin', for lack of a better term. It just means you've got a command of historical knowledge, whereas the other guy has an imagination for the future.), so all these "FUTURE TECH GODMODER" things are really foolish in and of themselves.


I agree, it dosent matter how big your mech is, its how good you RP with it.
I, myselfe, dont restrict myselfe to a certain "time period". I feel more confortable in future tech, but I enjoy playing modern day rp's to, I'll just use tanks instead of mechs. And as I said, in the end, its how good people rp that count.

The problem I have with "Future Tech" Nations is, from what I've seen of Future-Tech RPs, it tends to either descend into Numberwanking of the highest order, or, at best, you find your entire Nation trying to defend against things like Orbital Bombardment from the Uber-Dreadnought of DeathStar Nine, firing their patent PlanetWhacker 9000 Insta-Kill Death Rays, or trying to deal with legions of Mechs and/or Space Marines with KillZap Lasers. This brings us back to the Numberwanking thing, of course.

Simply, Uber-Tech takes the fun out of RP. Roycelandia, as some of you may know, deliberately uses a strange WWII/Modern-Day hybrid tech in our RPing, and so far it's provided for far more interesting RPs than "My 1000 Marine Rangers with M-16s kill j00r soldiers!!!"

In short, I don't recognise Future Tech for a variety of reasons, mostly RP, but also from the simple fact that if I was RPing with a Future Tech Nation, then my citizens would (quite rightly!) start demanding Holodecks and Warp Drive ships and Personal Teleporters. It's a messy conundrum, indeed...

Mind-reading in particular is murder to character role-play. Booo :P

I'll just use tanks instead of mechs. Personally, I would just use the mech as flavour and assume kill ratios based on the production capabilities... Prevents hurting continuation. (Uh... Our stuff just transformed?)

from what I've seen of Future-Tech RPs, it tends to either descend into Numberwanking of the highest order´And that is different from Whittieresque 'Moving 120 mio modern tech troops around' stuff... How?

Nothing is wrong with it. But then I'm biased, as I am future-tech. Well, what can you do, huge spaceships and supersoldiers in power armor are cool.

It's the RPing ability that matters. If somebody can't RP for his life, the tech level will not make a difference. Some people have misconception that ubertech=bad RPing. AFAIK, some of the best RPers in NS are future-tech, to a lesser or greater degree.

Another point of view for you guys to gnaw on: How about if a nation is advanced to the level of 'future-tech' in one area, (Such as Powered Armor for their infantry...) but they might as well be stuck in the 1940s in a bunch of other areas (Ie, Navy) and even further behind in another (Whats a tank?). A disparate focus on one form of technology, leaving others to remain in a near-primitive state, can also sorely change things and even balance the playing field.

For example, utilizing the suggested things above...a "Modern-Age" Nation's military went through huge pains to develop highly advanced Powered Armor for their infantry..unfortunately, this funding was taken from anything even RESEMBLING a tank, leaving them with nothing more powerful than, say, a bradley in the field of armored vehicles. The Powered Armor can kind-of fill the gap, but not entirely, leaving a glaring weakness. Furthermore, this hypothetical nation came up with excellent anti-aircraft measures..but they've only got a handful of old C130s for their 'Air Farce'.

So I throw to you all to chew on a bit, tell me what you think: How about when you've got a huge advantage in one field, but in a related, many times countering field, a glaring weakness that can be easily exploited?

Is it fair for the guy to run around with powered armor, their infantry ripping through their opponents, but at the same time, having to scrape together a barely viable defense when confronted with an MBT? What of technological disparities in that sense? (This, of course, easily transferrs over into the non-military realms, too)

Yes, exactly. My navy is sci-fi, but my ground forces are still conventional, aside from slight armor upgrades as a benefit from naval design, and a combat rifle that is slightly above average. In a way, my forces are much like those in Halo, except my forces have better ships than the UNSC. It's nice, because you can jet around to planets, and if someone has a problem with "j00r st00pid ub3r-sh1p" I can just dispatch some ground troops. As is, I'm going to make one of my puppets modern-tech for the whiny modern-techers and their itchy "aut0-ign0re" cannons.

My modern tech side has 2 things that are looked down upon
1-They are skaven
2-they use warpstone

Both can be explained, please humor me....

Some time ago(Haven't come up with a date yet), a small-medium nation(not unlike the US) suffered a astrocatastrophe, a meteorite(spelling) hit really close. This meteor(spelling) was made of warpstone, where it came from, who knows, how it got here, who knows, it managed to survive the impact/atmosphere, becoming slightly heated, this resulted in millions dead. Unfortunatley(but I say fortunatley) the warpstone has some effect on the outside world, it horribly rapid-evolved the local nation, due to a high percentage of rats, they ended up turning into skaven. After this, they went underground, chased by others fearful of their change, here they grew, creating vast(also shoddy) citis, factories, and other things, thus creating a nation again. Useing their curse and retribution, they tinkered with the warpstone, now it fuels weapons, is used in engines, or in ammunition. Later, in strength, they emerged, quickly takeing over a group of humans, working from here, they expanded influence, ties to other goverenments, and quickley became strong......

Warp-lightning:All this is, is basically a chunk of warpstone and magnifying glass, the light(some how it still retains its mutating properties, how, I don't know) of the warpstone is focused through a series of magnifiers, thus creating a "beam" of warpstone light, but it is tempermental, it could go a mile or more with enough strength to rip through tanks, buildings, ships, or it could not even leave the barrel.

Warpstone-It originated from space, somehow causes mutation, location is unknown

Skaven-Caused by the warpstone

Some problems have come from being inland and underground....
1-NO navy, none, zip, zilch
2-Very weak airforce, probably only 20 airships in use ever, most crash or blow up from warpstone engine/weapon

Some good from being inland
1-Virtually no sea can attack me
2-LARGE amount of combat troops(although ill equipped and trained)
3-Large amount of tanks

Any thoughts on my nation?

I don't like to admit it, but I probably count as a Future Tech nation. Personally I think that having "da5 Ub0r" tech can be done in moderation, with the right balance. Having one Ultimate Death machine for modern tech nations to deal with is k but 10,000 is pushing it as they have NO HOPE of RPing themselves out of that situation. I myself have have ungodly ground troops, which is balanced with having no sea or air. Sure, my guys will godmode to victory on the ground but get blown to bits by planes, which is OK in my opinion.

On another note, do you have Ratling guns, perchanse?

[OOC: The problem I have with future tech vs. modern tech is that often, the people who do future tech RPs try to techno-wank or power-wank (eg, my starships have a forcefield that prevent your weak nuclear missiles from hitting it). To me, it's a sign of a weak RPer when they try to use pure technology to overpower a modern tech country that is a much better RPer.

I've seen the arguments like "a catapult could still cause damage" or "a missile getting through an energy shield = dead starship", but that's why I have a problem with it. That and I'd have to RP adding advanced space tech to a country that's mostly based on current principles and technology (which I have, BTW).]

People who use modern tech wank just as much as future tech... take a look at storefronts.

My opinion is that some modern techies can't see past their own wank. Suddenly, the tactic of "Deploying 109098999666 M1A1 tankzors" doesn't work too well anymore, and they don't like that because they've built their nations upon a solid foundation of number and stat wanking.

Of course I'm not saying that ALL modern nations are like that, just many that I've seen. Of course there are exceptions (AMF, Panterra, etc) but those are fairly rare.

If I fought a modern nation, I would give them signifigant leverage. For instance, I wouldn't use ortillery or superweapons. I also would be liberal when assigning damage. I'd just say that they were unaturally accurate that battle and they managed to hit my powered armor's unarmored faceplates more often than normal.

I have two problems with future tech.
1) "Future tech" is often godmoding under another name.
2) I RP in the almost-modern world. You will see future tech here, but not until the future, which I'm not RPing in. If you want to interact with my nation, you'll have to do it at that point in your nation's history.

If I fought a modern nation, I would give them signifigant leverage. For instance, I wouldn't use ortillery or superweapons. I also would be liberal when assigning damage. I'd just say that they were unaturally accurate that battle and they managed to hit my powered armor's unarmored faceplates more often than normal.

[OOC: At least you don't pull stuff like not respond IC to damage until long after the fact; ie, the attack happens at the beginning of the war and in the negotiation phase you suddenly jump in with, "you destroyed my orbital platform! I want reparations!"]

I have two problems with future tech.
1) "Future tech" is often godmoding under another name.
2) I RP in the almost-modern world. You will see future tech here, but not until the future, which I'm not RPing in. If you want to interact with my nation, you'll have to do it at that point in your nation's history.


"Modern tech" is often statwanking under another name. Just look at one of the storefronts, or any of the "development" threads for modern tech.

The problem with me is that when my nation was fully modern, we were either Fragmented city states, or under the dominion of an evil alien race. It's how I've worked out my history.

Although I DO keep a small modern military force around, in case of emergencies (like pissy modern tech nations saying "That rifle is future tech!!!! I ignore j00 and j00 whole nation!" Despite the fact that my rifles are easily modern tech. Hell, they're even more modern than the XM-29/OICW/Whatever 2009 tech that people use on modern NS.)

"Modern tech" is often statwanking under another name. Just look at one of the storefronts, or any of the "development" threads for modern tech.What do you mean by that?
By future tech often being godmoding under another name, I mean people being caught godmoding and saying, "...It's future tech. I can have it", or making up impossible items because "I'm a future tech nation."

As some of you hear might know, I've went even farther. My race is not only future tech, but alien as well - alien as in non-humanoid.

As a result I will only RP with other space nations. But amoung space nations I do have a good reputation.

And remember, godmoders and N00bs come in all tech levels.

My only problem with future tech is the lack of standardization.

Most, that is to say just about everyone's, future tech relies on "new scientific principles," new technologies and materials. But these things are not standardized.

For instance, FTL. I have a problem accepting FTL because everyone has their own method. They all "work." But am I to accept every method? A universe where FTL is not only possible, but there are fifty zillion "new principles" upon which FTL works? It's hard enough accepting that there is ONE way at all.

The fudgy answer is we just happen to live in a universe where, literally, everything is possible. But that's a wanky copout to me, and it makes it all boring. Gee, which version of Grand Unified Theory will I use today? For my RP's I can only have one, like one FTL method, and so inevitably I have to assume everyone who uses FTL just uses that one method.

But which method?

And then it's even more impossible with say spaceships, and everyone has their own weapons here and there, half-borrowed from existing fictional universes and not a one of them capable with another. And no one calculates things like power outputs or energy requirements or heat resistance so really, having a ship with 25 Turbolasers (whatever a turbolaser is) is completely meaningless without a firm understanding, and agreement, as to what a turbolaser can do.

My only problem with future tech is the lack of standardization.

Most, that is to say just about everyone's, future tech relies on "new scientific principles," new technologies and materials. But these things are not standardized.

For instance, FTL. I have a problem accepting FTL because everyone has their own method. They all "work." But am I to accept every method? A universe where FTL is not only possible, but there are fifty zillion "new principles" upon which FTL works? It's hard enough accepting that there is ONE way at all.

The fudgy answer is we just happen to live in a universe where, literally, everything is possible. But that's a wanky copout to me, and it makes it all boring. Gee, which version of Grand Unified Theory will I use today? For my RP's I can only have one, like one FTL method, and so inevitably I have to assume everyone who uses FTL just uses that one method.

But which method?

And then it's even more impossible with say spaceships, and everyone has their own weapons here and there, half-borrowed from existing fictional universes and not a one of them capable with another. And no one calculates things like power outputs or energy requirements or heat resistance so really, having a ship with 25 Turbolasers (whatever a turbolaser is) is completely meaningless without a firm understanding, and agreement, as to what a turbolaser can do.

And yet although we know each other well, I have to disagree with you. I'm future. Better yet I'm far-future. Yet while sometimes I even dabble in fantasy, I stick to my own set of rules. Those who RP with me do as well. Sure, sometimes they don't make complete sense, but they make for some damn fine RP.

Also, not everyone is capable of regulating their stats or being creative. Or there are some creative folk like me who could regulate stats, but see it as school work in a site meant for fun. There are all different kinds of RPers in NS, and it's one of the most broad RPing forums I've seen. Find people who RP as you do, and RP with them. Either ignore the others, or find a happy medium.

What do you mean by that?
By future tech often being godmoding under another name, I mean people being caught godmoding and saying, "...It's future tech. I can have it", or making up impossible items because "I'm a future tech nation."

I wasn't making the exact same point you were, now that I see you explaining it.

Basically, what I see when I look at storefronts and modern dev threads (and modern war threads to a lesser extent) is Statwank. For instance, look at this tank, which I wrote up in the style of many modern storefronts.

"M367A1 stats:
Engine: 60,000 horsepower turbowank GSI engine capable of going at 60 kph
Gun: 120mm smoothbore rhinemettal cannon with an *arbitrary number goes here* muzzle velocity
Armor: Some overused chobbam composite
Crew: 5
Targeting system: 1 Wankworthy Ultra day/night IR target designation and tracking system capable of OMG tracking 09403944 targets at oncezor!
Etc..."

That is all well and good, except when people rely on JUST that to speak for their tank or whatever. They often provide nothing more than that for information. You can see my problem, when people actually take the time to write up a decent description, I don't look at it as statwank, just necessary extras, like salt on pretzels or something. But when someone just puts that down and expects everyone to magically know (or care) what it means, then I consider that statwank.

I don't like ignoring all those who don't RP like me. That way I'm just the same as everyone else I'm RPing with, and it starts to remind me of one of Letila's communist utopias because there's nothing to distinguish player styles. That takes half the fun out of it.

AS for the 'happy medium' well that's what my post was about, the LACK of a medium.

Then I guess there isn't much more you can do about it...I'm not sure what to say...

Then I guess there isn't much more you can do about it...I'm not sure what to say...

Meh that's why it's a "what's wrong with future tech" thread and not "what's wrong with future tech and what are we gonna do to fix it," I guess.

Obviously, the only way to fix it is to be a past tech nation! Everyone get those crusade knight blueprints out of the cupboard, 'cos its time for some ye olde wars!!!11

Future-tech is far.. lets say "unrealistic" in many aspects..
Maybe those that complain were modern tech and suddenly decided to be future tech without telling those they were RP ing with..

As someone said on a previous post there are plenty of future-tech nations (i am one) to RP with.. unfortunately, there's godmodding there also (Check any thread about the ESUS-Shivan war and you'll see what i mean), and yes.. it seems that from a few month past there has been a seriuos influx of goodmodding roleplayers (and N00bs), that frankly make you loose your interest in RPing in NS.

But still, there are good RPers out there, be them fantasy, medieval, modern, or future tech naitions.. you just have to find them...

The problem is not what is wrong with future-tech (just as it is not with mediaval-tech, or modern-tech or fantasy-tech), the problem is what is wrong with people who play those tech levels, everyone want to win without losing troops, hardware or real state. That is the problem.

Relative technologies and realities.

The real issue is that the level of physics understood (or, as is often the case, misunderstood) by future tech nations is not a possibility in most modern or near-modern tech nations.

Just as it would be inconceivable for WWI era military strategists to have planes that can go three times the speed of sound and destroy battle fleets all by their lonesome (using nuclear or other means)...some things are not acceptable for modern weapons systems. WA operates in the near-modern/near-future ("advanced modern" as I call it) envelope, which is basically a set of technologies and applications that either exist today, will exist within 10-15 years (placing the leading edge technologies in a 2020-2030 timeframe, allowing for happenstance advances in some fields that do not necessarily place the entire timeframe that far ahead of the claimed time). The problem for moderntech nations is that while these "advanced modern" countries have technologies that are incremental (or perhaps just philosophical) advances, "future tech" nations often take liberties with physics, design, and technology that is not only not predicted by current actual or potential research foci, but which may be considered impossible or at very least impracticable by the modern scientific understanding. By many conventions, much of "futuretech" is godmodding for moderntech.

And, face it, fantasy is fantasy...mutated rat people with magic stones are fantasy...even if they use Abrams MBTs and Strike Eagles, but used right this can add to, rather than detract from, and RP.

Well, if everyone can recognize the fact combat between two nations with a decidedly different tech level will, under most circumstances, favour the nation with superior tech, then most arguments can be resolved. In other words, I find the “an arrow will kill you just as easily as a plasma bolt” to be over simplistic. A cyborg warrior will not only have advantages in firepower, but also in detection, speed (either himself or in transport), resources, etc…to make the fight incredibly lopsided. So maybe the hapless archer can get a lucky shot, but when viewing his comrades being vaped by laser fire or his village leveled by a nuke, he will probably either run or surrender.

Now, I’ve made some assumptions here. When you role play, I think some consent is going on between all the players. It’s the lack of consent that creates the disputes. That is, most everyone knows what a nuclear bomb can do, or the information can be researched if there is some doubt. In future tech settings, it’s a little harder since most often, a person is drawing out some stuff from a sci fi book and makes some (wild) assumptions. This is not to say that a fictional universe can’t be analyzed (see Mike Wong over at stardestroyer.net) but it does take time. Can my Andre the Giant Orbital cannon pulse ray actually pierce your Hulk Hogan planetary defense shield or not? I think this is what Santa Barbara means by a level playing field. And it seems that when different sci fi universes collide in NS, no one wants to admit that their favorite book might lose.

This is not to say that modern tech nations don’t make some over the top estimates or wild assumptions as well. Basically, the problem is that a person is trying to quantify a story, which doesn’t always work. I believe that a story can be told with some hard numbers lurking in the background, since the hard numbers are, hopefully, mutually agreed upon by the players before the onset or can be modified according to the current players. In other words, some kind of objective rules are laid out so that everyone is on the same page, which I think can assist in interaction. I don’t have any problem interacting with nations that are far more advanced (or even slightly more advanced). I do have a problem when a nation (at whatever tech level) starts pulling stuff out of ass space. A 12th C nation conjuring up an instant barbarian horde is just as guilty as a future tech nation pulling out an orbital cannon from thin air.

I do believe that nations of different tech levels can interact, but that there are inherent advantages and disadvantages when vast technological gaps exist. Basically, in the interest of fun, it seems that some advantages are removed, but for some, that’s no fun at all. I guess it comes down to how much BS one can bear.

Another point of view for you guys to gnaw on: How about if a nation is advanced to the level of 'future-tech' in one area, (Such as Powered Armor for their infantry...) but they might as well be stuck in the 1940s in a bunch of other areas (Ie, Navy) and even further behind in another (Whats a tank?). A disparate focus on one form of technology, leaving others to remain in a near-primitive state, can also sorely change things and even balance the playing field.

Actually, for the longest time that was how my nation was run. My IT, telecommunications and such were all advanced, circa 2050. My medical facilities, biological knowledge and such fell behind, circa 1950. In fact, I remember making a passing reference to how I had just discovered DNA. Most other things were roughly present day. My automobile sector was far and away the worst, probably cranking out old Model T's.

This is difficult to maintain, however. As a nation interacts with other nations, they quickly find that they can trade their advanced tech to bring up their lagging tech. The only way to maintain such parity would be to be isolationist, which makes for rather dull RP.

Also, when I became a protectorate of GMC, all that pretty much vanished, pulling my entire nation into the aforementioned circa 2070 tech. And, as mentioned several times (by me and others) the tech should be background. Sure, my citizens have easy access to VR rigs to watch their movies, and damn near everybody has a video-phone, but that really doesn't change the human stories of the nation.

Alright, thus far, these are the points I've managed to find brought up thus far:

There is nothing inerently WRONG with FutureTech-The issues lie in "NumberWanking" and Godmoding, as well as the much fabled "AssSpace"
Furthermore, FutureTech is complicated by the lack of a standardized system, so everyone makes up their own thing to run with
ModernTech isnt perfect either-Plauged by the NumberWanking and Godmoding, combined with unrealistic applications of current technology to create "UberModernTech"
Nations can start out with a huge advantage in one area and severe disadvantages in others, but due to the nature of trade and relationships, these weaknesses will be shored up, bringing the other tech at least onto par with the 'current' tech level, and possibly even further, up to the level of the original advantage
Even "HistoryTech" can't be agreed upon.
Fantasy is a minefield. End of statement.


Now, to further support Hack's statement: The nation in my example, regarding the powered armor, was my own. Thanks to Trade with Lavenrunz, we learned how to make subs and SeARMOR. With help from Tahar Joblis' designers, we learned to build ships, eventually resulting in the 4 Super Dreadnoughts. Through purchases from Aerigia, the Order was able to build an Air Force overnight...Through fighting tanks, we learned to build them.

This brought many of our fields onto par with the other ModernTech nations..however..thanks to the Advantage held by the Powered Armor, among other things, this caused a technological disparity damaging to our ability to interact with the other ModernTech nations, particular fear out of being struck by the Ignore Cannon, so easily wielded by many ModernTech nations. (Then again, I face something that most people would find "IgnoreCannon" worthy, save for nukes, I'd just say "Fine, You wanna play that way? Eat plasma cannon!"...Nukes, thats a whole nother can of worms...)

Of course, we cant really do anything to 'fix' the 'standarization' of FutureTech...tha'd cause the greatest flamewar this board may ever see. Not a prospect to look forward to, if you ask me. What we CAN do, however, Is try our best to guide the newer players along, teach the wankers to stop wanking their precious numbers (How many truly grand stories use numbers, save for when its important to the story?), and stop ignore-cannoning everything someone doesnt like.

I must say, this thread's been a much better success than I expected.

My nation is, in general, a near future tech nation. We like railguns, orbital dropships, small mechs, and lasers. We however never godmod. Though my nation uses advanced tech, we only deploy small forces. Our gound troops consist of 500,000 infantry with advanced guns. We rarely deploy more than 100 aircraft and 50 mechs. We may face an enemy fielding millions of troops and thousands of vehicles. As such, our army is blanced against modern tech due to numbers.

Also, a great way of avoiding accusations of godmoding is to only fight nations that are also advanced. Thus, if they waste your city with a space based plasma cannon, you can fight back with a radiation beam that melts his soldiers. If I go to war with a modern tech nation, I make sure that they are willing to fight future tech. Most importantly, I make sure my force takes losses. After all, whether a soldier is shot with an Ak-47 or a railgun he dies just the same.

I wonder if anyone here remembers that interaction can't be forced. This means, every single kind of interactiosn between nations/ players is consentual.

Thus, the problem shouldn't even be there. One interacts with others who are willing to interact, techlevels are secondary, the possible results of differences in this sector are known, etc.

Hence, where the hell is the problem? Lack of respect by the more futuristic players (I R ORTILLERING Y0 WITH MA PLASMA LAUNCHERS!!!11) towards the more present day capability players, as well as arrogance by the latter (Y0 CAN'T TOUCH ME, GODMODER! ALL OF NS SHOULD BE STANDARDISED!).

But said lack of respect/ arrogance isn't a tech issue.

It's a character issue.

Absolutely! Far too many people think you must respond to every thread that purports to attack your nation or even interact in any way. It is also not nessecary to ignore the nation either - though it would be polite to post and say why you are not interested in the RP. Even if this is simply because you don't like the nation/player in question it is still your right to chose. No one can force you to play or accept anything anyone does.

Of course, if you never RP anything bad happening to your nation you will quickly get a reputation for that and again - no one will have to RP with you either. All in all it's fairly well balanced as long as you think about your options and remember that everyone - everyone - has those same options.

Furthermore, FutureTech is complicated by the lack of a standardized system, so everyone makes up their own thing to run with


Standardisation isn't good. The best thing about NS is that you can be imaginative and do your own thing, and as long as you can be flexible and both players are trying to be fair, no standard version of physics or reality is necessary. Weaponry CANNOT be a Godmode until someone uses it, because even TEH INVINCIBUL SPAYS BATTEL SHIPZ0R!!!111 can't effect anyone while it's sitting in a hanger.

"As someone said on a previous post there are plenty of future-tech nations (i am one) to RP with.. unfortunately, there's godmodding there also (Check any thread about the ESUS-Shivan war and you'll see what i mean), and yes.. it seems that from a few month past there has been a seriuos influx of goodmodding roleplayers (and N00bs), that frankly make you loose your interest in RPing in NS.I resent the fact that you lumped the ESUS and the Shivans together. I have no idea why the hell the Shivans even exist, but they are the blatant godmodders/wankers...

First off, over 50% of the ESUS does not participate in the ESUS-Shivan RPs. And of those that do, only a few godmod.

Second off, the ESUS tests all of its members for RPing ability. If someone lacks these abilities, he will be booted from the ESUS, pending a decision by the alliance directors.

5CN: This thread is not the place for you to 'defend' your 'alliance' and a thread its members were involved in. Unless it pertains to the question being discussed, take it to a thread that actually cares.

arrogance by the latter (Y0 CAN'T TOUCH ME, GODMODER! ALL OF NS SHOULD BE STANDARDISED!).


Wait so because I brought up standardization I'm arrogant? I didn't even say NS should be standardized, either...

Look at what he wrote--he wasnt attacking any one person specifically, he was giving an example. Hell, I even said something about standardization :P

Need to stay away from the arguments, people. Keep this thing on track, I dont like this stuff devolving into flurries of flame.

Alright, it's just the stereotyping that's going around, that always irks.

Standardization would be useful is all, and would make for consistent reading when it comes to certain things.

Come to think of it, stereotyping is a form of standardization... hmm...

Blackwolf I think what appears to be a prejudice against FuTech is really people getting frustrated with number wanker, godmodders, whatever you wish to title them. Plenty of which are modtech.
I RP nomads(not strictly muslims and not strictly arab just mostly)
Who use a combination of techs-the most adavanced thing my nation has is its communications network(a resonable first step towards Futech I might add) While weapon wise the AK-47 and NAgat pistol are seen even muzzle loaders by soe of the older men.
Truthfully a good RP has nothing nothing nothing to do with the technology level.
I mean as a modtech against a FUtech you get to play the underdog, you get to rally your allies to your cause, you getto bluff you get to..dare I say..RolePlay.
,the freaking Indians, the spartans at thermopoly(s/p?), the english engineers against 20000 zulus.
Or you could n00kmeyeB8ziz.

Now I doubt this is just me but in NS there are so many competeing world views that Godmodding is relative. My equipment is godmodding to some or common place to others, it depends on who you RP with, how you RP, and what kind of context you have. If I tried to fit into some circles I'd have to drop so much of my equipment, history, and national identity, that I might as well simply let my nation die off. So instead I keep to my own groups, discuss with those I'm going to RP with beforehand, and try to build in faults to everything even if that fault is only the cost of something.

Also I hold myself to the standards I've set, and keep everything within the universe my nation is set in. I roleplay in a world where spaceships couldn't go inbetween systems if they were smaller than about 3/4s of a kilometer and where 3-4 kilometer long dreadnaughts are not out of place. Then again, on the ground tanks are moving at hundreds of kph using gravity induction engines. If you take it out of context any of it would be a godmod but in my universe all of that is commonplace. It may be that fewer people RP in this universe but those who do find the experience enjoyable enough to continue and as long as some of us still do RP in this little universe then I don't see any problems.

When it comes to conflicts between tech-levels I don't see a problem, my men would have an advantage (or would be at a disadvanatge as we fight someone who is above us. Eeep!) and as long as both parties are in agreement and have discussed everything beforehand there are no problems, I wouldn't roleplay any other way.

I have found the 'happy medium'.

My military is the example of modern-future war RPing. It is split into only Navy and Marine, BTW. The Marine taking over Army and the Navy taking over Air Force.

Navy: two space fleets(non-FTL) one rogue space armada(FTL-hyperdrive), one modern carrier battlegroup, approximatly 25 semi-future stealth submarines.

Marines: two distinct divisions: one future supersoldiers that are walking gun platforms in power armor, with Mechs and advanced drop ships and one near-future Starship Troopers tech soldiers with tracked armor and primative dropships complimenting modern cargo transports.

See? I can perform two seperate types of war. One using future, one using near future(which most modern seem to at least consider accepting, depending on the nation).

Now... that isn't enough, is it? No.

I get around the problems, by never even bringing tech into an RP. Hell, I CO-RP with AMF all the time and Delta(leader of Crimmond) is involved closely in Damien's weird storyline. CO-RP that relies on technical showmanship and wanking is just a tech RP with characters.

I have RPed with nations that think electricity is a fad and nations that have RPed blowing up stars(which I have done three times, myself... with only one complaint, mind you). To me, tech is an RPing tool that I only use when needed.

As I, and many others, said eight months ago....

If you can make a war RP that you could make into a novel or film, you have succeeded in RPing. Don't just flank the enemy with your forces and post numbers. In every fictional work, those take a secondary, or even less role. Have your general discuss it with his staff or, better yet, have a front line soldier look across the feild of battle and hear his or her thoughts.

My opinion is let the tech be there... but in the background.

If you can make a war RP that you could make into a novel or film, you have succeeded in RPing. Don't just flank the enemy with your forces and post numbers. In every fictional work, those take a secondary, or even less role. Have your general discuss it with his staff or, better yet, have a front line soldier look across the feild of battle and hear his or her thoughts.

My opinion is let the tech be there... but in the background.

And that's what RPing should be. Crimmond pretty much hit the nail on the head there, and drove it through the board.

That's actually from quotes of yours, AMFs and TSTs and mine that I remembered from back then. Just stuck them together.

Two types of war in nationstates:

First Type: Big-Ass Crusade. This is where heaps of nations get together and slug it out, like the Amerigo Slaver War, the GDODDDADDADDDAD wars and the few other World Wars. Tech here doesn't matter, because both sides have an array of future, modern and fantasy tech.

Second Type: Small-scale 1-1 Wars. It doesn't have to be 1-1, but in this particular war tech becomes an issue. See it isn't that future tech nations have weaknesses--it's possibly more the fact that if you're facing off a modern nation you have a pretty good idea of what the tech is like, just from watching the news or reading Jane's Big Book of Killing Machines or something. It's familiar. But from a modern-tech viewpoint, this is one of the reasons I haven't had an all-out with the Reich--a lot of Reich nations are future tech and they're talking about neural nets and drop ships and orbital artillery which belongs in the tehcnobabble section of Star Trek. I just say that a few nations in Baron are future tech and we share the tech out, so that one strike with an orbital artillery piece won't knock out my infrastructure ;) But this doesn't mean that I have any idea what the hell they're talking about.

It's an odd thing for someone who's a fan of science fiction lol. But I've never been too interested in technology.

And obviously tech-level doesn't matter of you're RPing a political meeting or negotiation or something. I thought that'd have been starkly obvious.

And no, I haven't read the entire thread, it's not interesting enough lol.

Wait so because I brought up standardization I'm arrogant? I didn't even say NS should be standardized, either...

Actually, I meant modern tech purists on the Chellis/ SeOCC level who flatout think that everything not following their personal standard of 'tech' (Usually something where they can claim superiority after reading a time magazine article) is TEH EVUL.

For some odd reason.

Mind you, I do not really get your FTL problem... Why shouldn't there be several methods?

Or is the only way to cross the seas, well, paddling? Sailing is impossible? Ship's propellers are TEH GRODLOAD!?

Okay, so we can further split the NS population as well as the tech levels:

You've got your NumberWankers, who can also be a member of any other category as well. No need to define them, since they've been discussed exhaustively already in this thread.

Next, you've got your Puritans. They live for the purity of story/tech/whatnot, and if it doesn't fit their ideals, as Der Angst said, it is TEH EVIL! They're usually better than you, too, no matter if you're even using the same equipment. Why? Because they said so. NumberWankers thrive here.

The l337N00b5m45h3r. (Aka, Godmoder) Fools, morons, and people we all despise. No need to really define them. Numberwankers here tend to not understand the numbers they spout, and therefore, are way off the ball. When being a puritan is thrown into the mix, you've got particular people who I'd rather not describe who we all rabidly hate, and I'd rather avoid the pending flamewar.

The Technophile. Many times can be a l33t themself. Loves tech, the more BS-filled, the better it is. Has a powerful command of the netherworld known as "Ass Space', which is where they store the majority of their equipment until it's needed to specificaly counter something someone else has. Godmoders tend to congregate here, as well as the numberwankers.

The Technophobe. Rabidly against all forms of technology higher than their own.....despite the fact they're stuck back with vietnam-era gear....taken from the Vietnamiese. A veritable master of Ass Space, can conjure up armies vast as the sea, and coordinated like a precision seal team. Despite the lack of communication equipment in the nation. They're just. that. good.

The Red-Button-Masher. The guy who launches fiftyseventyninehundredeightysevenmillionfourtytwobillion sooperdoober thurmonukler IDbCM megamizzles at you if you kindly and quietly let a represenative of theirs know they've got spinach stuck in their teeth. Heaven save you if you actually call them on account for something. The Numberwankers here truly wank the digits.

Gengis Khan. The guy who invades your nation at the drop of a hat...cause you dropped your hat and it ticked 'em off. No fighting it, cause it was a SUPERSUPRISE attack, and being able to defend yourself from is ULTRABLITZKREIG tactics is obviously godmoding.

The Napolean Follower: Wants desperately to take over the world, has issues with the fact that he's smaller than EVERYONE else, mainly because he was created last night. But thats not going to stop him, oh no, because he is teh masta taktishan and can beat any army with his brain behind his back. (Unfortunately, his brain is located below, not behind his back, so, no help there for him.) Will not admit the existance of a place called "Waterloo."

And finally:
Your average NS player. A person who admits there is indeed a world outside of a computer screen, and just enjoys the idea of making a story with a few thousand other people. Does not enjoy numberwanking, godmoding and warmongering, but does enjoy a good tussle every now and again with a flavorful balance of character development.

***DISCLAIMER***
I typed this up at work, rather bored, so, it probably is all half-whacked. But it sure sounded nifty!

If people don't want certain tech in their threads they chould make it known in an OCC at the beginning or make the story clear as to the Age it is in..

I have only been here since April so I have not figured out who of the 100,000 plus players are modern or future tech. Most of the times it is hard to figure it because the Thread starter describes a situation that could swing into both settings. Then you need to factor in the fact there are some nations who play both sides of the fence.

On another note, do you have Ratling guns, perchanse?

Why yes I do, go to the international mall, then look under future tech, just ignore the ships and odds and ends, and tone the weapons down a bit, and there you go, modern.....
http://s6.invisionfree.com/International_Mall/index.php?showforum=95

It's very hard to realistically play a modern tech nation, if future tech nations exist, simply because if future tech nations exist, then their technology will end up everywhere, no matter how closely they claim their clinging on to their secrets. And no, nobody can keep hold of their technological secrets that tightly, that they won't end up in anybody else's hands. I'm not talking about uber-military gear, but civilian products and consumables, which would be highly in demand in lower tech countries (which future tech corporations WOULD take advantage of), and would end up contaminating everything with futureness, as has been seen countless times in history. As I'm not really interested in bending reality to keep my country 'modern tech pure' in an environment where high tech exists, my only choice is to declare that it doesn't exist in the same world as my nation.

Nothing is wrong with Future Tech. Got it. NOTHING.

Anyone who says otherwise gets a highly destructive nanite cloud dropped on them. ^_^


All joking aside...

How you want to RP is how you want to RP. Modern and Future can get along fine, if there're limits. Hell, you can even contact other Modern Nations IC but stay behind some kind of treaty or something that dictates you can't interfere with "Primatives" on Earth unless they initiate contact beyond that of communications. Like the Mekantas. ^_^

(Yess... convert them all... Make them like uss, preciousss....)

Granted, there's a lot of tech and number wanking in Future Tech, but you need logic and an understanding of the concepts behind your technololgy to avoid that. I know there're a lot of players who'd be happy to help people learn. ^_^

Okay, so we can further split the NS population as well as the tech levels:What about the people to whom NS is more of a freeform text-based wargame where you need to know how good everyone's equipment is to post your casualties, and where better tech is important but godmoding shunned?

Oops, I missed the disclaimer. Still, I think this helps explain why some people want to know every little detail about the new jet that just came out.

Well because sailing across the sea is not like traveling faster than light. Maybe I'm not open-minded enough, but in my opinion it would be some kind of miracle if humanity could ever find a viable, generally safe FTL method. Like, one kind. I don't want to RP in a universe where there's been dozens of FTL miracles, that's all. There's no miracle in it then at all really.

Well because sailing across the sea is not like traveling faster than light. Maybe I'm not open-minded enough, but in my opinion it would be some kind of miracle if humanity could ever find a viable, generally safe FTL method. Like, one kind. I don't want to RP in a universe where there's been dozens of FTL miracles, that's all. There's no miracle in it then at all really.

You poor, poor thing.

You poor, poor thing.

ooh! There ish a power shtruggle, yesh.

Look the solution is simply. Don't ignore, or anything so 'extreme'. All you have to do is not get involved in threads where future tech is heavily in use, and as someone already said, if you're RPing with someone with future tech, then agree beforehand to limit what can be done. Like, before declaring war.

Problem solved :)

Future and modern and fantasy tech should be integratable no matter what, as long as the people involved are willing to work it out.

Expanding on what Crimmond said, the basis of any decent RP is NOT "my 12083 tanks fire 467980 shells which impact your 8989 tanks at a muzzle velocity of 50,000,000 f/m which generates XXXX Newtons of force" etc. etc. Admittedly that is an extreme example, but something like "my 6 tank divisions supported by 5 infantry divisions cross the river" just does not constitute a good RP.

The focus should be on people or events, preferably both. Now because people are more or less alike no matter what tech level or national heritage, and events happen the same for both sides, technology should only play a part in influencing the character's actions and how the events work out.

If someone bombards my city with satellite-mounted railguns, that is not pleasant for the city, but if I can somehow counter it, fine. If some Sky Fortress shows up which unleashes melta rays which explode my tanks instantly, I could say, have a small team of commandos try to infiltrate it and take it over, raining melta doom on your own side!

The problem is, people are either not clever enough or just too lazy to think of those things. They see "Sky Fortress liquidates tanks with melta ray" and shout GODMOD! They see themselves being outnumbered in a same-tech war and just sulk and pout and make long arguments about why the enemy's radar could NOT detect their l33+ fighters of stealthiness, using many terms no one on earth without an engineering degree understands; rather they should have their forces disperse, go commando, or strike out at supply lines and try to assassinate enemy generals.

The problem, then, is not the variety of stuff which abounds on NS; rather that is our strength! Issues only crop up when certain participants in a RP are not willing to think around a problem and decide to take the easy and stupid way out.

As for numberwanking specifically...

I do not find it numberwanking to say how much forces you are sending, especially if you include with that information some explanation of how they're getting to their destination, where they came from, who they are, etc. Recently I wrote a list of forces that were available, and felt rather bad about it later when I realized I could easily have included those numbers in some dialogue between generals or some dude reading the paper or whatnot.

Anything more than that, which just includes the blatant listing of numbers, does not belong in any good RP. Hell, being vague about how many missiles were launched/how many fighters sent/how many of your infantry have the mark GYM6-N4 Infantry Trench Shovel can actually improve the RP as it allows both sides to be a little more liberal about how they call it. I HATE when someone has an entire post along the lines of, say

All 10 of my barrage ships fire all weapons at your fleet.

That's 100000 SMELT-7 cruise missiles. How much damage?


I guess then to sum up, the place of numbers AND technology is to provide the framework of the situation which comes to exist and the actions then taken by the characters in said situation. Soldier Jones will react differently if he is outnumbered/fighting BattleMechs/being bombed nonstop/out of food, but he still does SOMETHING, and that something is what you determine.

I don't want to RP in a universe where there's been dozens of FTL miracles, that's all.

The problem is simple: There are thousands (well, dozens, counting only the forums) of different FTL capable nations. Everyone uses their own flavour/ background, hence, you can't standardise it.

And it gets even worse when you try to standardise things on a background/ canon level. Simple example: Take one of my puppets (Z'Ha'Dum). It is rather obvious that a nation RPed strictly after (Well, at least strictly after tech...) canon cannot accept standardisation.

And the same is true for, say, Trek or WH40K nations.

Add to that that most people tend to organise their stuff their own way, even if it is not in any way canon based on, well, stuff.

And why shouldn't they? It's their nation, and as long as even the only rules NS has (UN stats) are more like guidelines...

Thus, to put it simple: Your wish wont, and cannot, come true.

Not to mention when someone goes shopping and buys Bab5, trek, and WH40k ships for their navy. There are three different cannon FTL there. Then they develop another one of their own for a fourth.

It's not hard to look around and see nations with their navy composed of ships from different backgrounds.

Expanding on what Crimmond said, the basis of any decent RP is NOT "my 12083 tanks fire 467980 shells which impact your 8989 tanks at a muzzle velocity of 50,000,000 f/m which generates XXXX Newtons of force" etc. etc. Admittedly that is an extreme example, but something like "my 6 tank divisions supported by 5 infantry divisions cross the river" just does not constitute a good RP.When we do that, I don't think we are really role-playing (although we are playing roles...). We're wargaming online. For that, it doesn't matter how a random soldier feels, or what an officer says, unless it creates a noticeable effect on the whole battle.
(Yes, I'm one of the people who do that. While I can RP decently, it takes much too long for me to write a post that's a paragraph or two long. :( )

I guess it comes down to how much BS one can bear.

To take an RP that I'm currently involved with, a player who sees nothing wrong in shifting 81,000 troops with a fleet that has no transport vessels and just 15 landing craft is threatening an all out nuclear attack if I use any of my submarine launched conventional warhead ballistic missiles.

How does one get out of that?

I dont like Future tech at all. In fact my entire nation uses existing stuff, i only sell existing stuff.

I've seen nations/persons get angry or even quit NS because of future tech. It always comes down to the same argument: "your tank cant kill my Ubertank because it has 20000mm laminated armor and an specially upgraded engine that can make it go 120mph". I've seen it, i dont want to see it anymore.

To take an RP that I'm currently involved with, a player who sees nothing wrong in shifting 81,000 troops with a fleet that has no transport vessels and just 15 landing craft is threatening an all out nuclear attack if I use any of my submarine launched conventional warhead ballistic missiles.

How does one get out of that?

Dunno. Find new players I suppose.

To take an RP that I'm currently involved with, a player who sees nothing wrong in shifting 81,000 troops with a fleet that has no transport vessels and just 15 landing craft is threatening an all out nuclear attack if I use any of my submarine launched conventional warhead ballistic missiles.

How does one get out of that?

Try to correct and explain to him/her that what he/she is doing is impossible. If he/she doesn't understand or won't listen, I hate to say it, but you have to ignore him/her. There's no need to waste time in an RP that's going no where.

I dont like Future tech at all. In fact my entire nation uses existing stuff, i only sell existing stuff.

I've seen nations/persons get angry or even quit NS because of future tech. It always comes down to the same argument: "your tank cant kill my Ubertank because it has 20000mm laminated armor and an specially upgraded engine that can make it go 120mph". I've seen it, i dont want to see it anymore.

Your generalizations make me sick. There are n00bs at every level, as well as good RPers. Stop being ignorant. It's not the tech level that matters, it's the story.

It's not the tech level that matters, it's the story.

AMEN! That is the essense of all roleplaying -- the story comes above all, everything else just colors the story.

And we all must accept that some people just are not that good at/do not care enough about RP.

GMC - Nice way to kill the discussion, fool.

DA - Actually, it can come true, for the very same reasons you listed. Everyone has their own universe. So do I. That was my point. In my RPing style and universe and tech basis, fifty gazillion FTL ways do not exist. Period. That just poses me the problem of deciding what FTL methods or general categories (that can be described in similar, consistent ways) that I do use.

It's just a question of tech level and flavor. I gotta keep to my own and 'soft ignore' the others. Like if I were a B5 player I would treat all Hyperdrive SW type methods as Jumpgates with a different name, perhaps. And have to agree with other players as to how those things work.

Ninancio has a good point, not all of us are attracted to this game via heroic fantasy or personal storytelling, as it is after all about whole nations, politics, and war. I see the "characters" we roleplay as being the nations we have, with all actual characters as sub-characters being used to portray the nation.

And as a political leader you have to think or at least know about the numbers of divisions you send to battle, the capabilities of your military, and some people just brush all that aside as crappy RP. It's not crappy RP. Numberwanking, when thats ALL you do, of course is stupid.

yes it is all about the people u RP with, i do it with a good group and good things happen. Tell the story, if its told good people wont even notice number crunching they'll like it casue they feel that they are part of the story.

I agree 100% that it's all about the story.

Personally, I don't RP future tech. Granted, some of my tech is more advanced in certain areas, and not so advanced in others. But I don't care if that's not someone's definition of true modern tech, I'm happy RPing the way my country is, and that's all that matters.

But, as far as future tech against modern tech goes:

In an RP it's fine if you talk it over with the oher player first. I really enjoy RPing fantasy, but I'd never use demons or other spiritual whatnots unless cleared by the other player first. Unless of course they really start peeving me off, then I might make an exception. ;)

I personally believe that tech levels should be used as a tool to enhance an RP, and not be used as a crutch. There's nothing worse than someone who types up 20+ paragraphs of material, just to have the other player cry and moan because the muzzle velocity on his guns aren't correct, or have them post insane amounts of stats.

All that does is make an RP a Math contest. I prefer to make RP's an English contest.

Whether FTL is hyperdrive, jumpgates, or whatever else, the same effect is achieved; enormous distances are covered within a relatively short time. Each culture or nation will just have a different name for the same thing.

Personaly the biggest problem to be had with "future tech" is the defintion of future. if you play Modern tech then its assumed that you are set in the year 2004, yet if you play future tech, you could be playing in 2010, 2100, or even 4059209324. My nation is set in the year 3650, our first spacecraft was launched in 2012, and the first armed, multiple man spaceship wasn't completled untill 2070, and a traditional (by future tech standards) space navy wasn't finished in Taka untill 2080, and its taken a little over 1500 years in order to advance to multi-kilometer long starships. Realism dictates that aquiring resources, buildup from existing designes, and Technology required to keep these things feasable takes a lot of time. If you play a modern nation, its most likely that you won't be able to have anything more than light exo-atmospheric fighters and bombers, possibly sluggish and weakly armored and armed frigates about the size of a space shuttle.

I dont like Future tech at all. In fact my entire nation uses existing stuff, i only sell existing stuff.

Incidentally, having 'made up' (The term futuretech is silly, do we know what will come in the future?) tech is far more realistic than your approach, since, you see...

RL tech is based on the geopolitical situation, geographic and industrial characteristica, regional as well as global culture, and so on.

In NS, all of this things are extremely different from what we know IRL

Or in other words, when you use really existing stuff in NS, you're commiting a few dozen significant strategic mistakes.

All that while the so called 'purists' cover their ignorance towards the vastly different world of NS by way of claiming that everything not existing IRL is OMG TEH GODMODE.

Actually, it is kinda comparable to OMG STAR WARS or OMG HONORVERSE tech nations, who kindly ignore facts like, say, them being tiny 2- 3bn nations with ressources and general capacities vastly inferior to their adored series... Yes, I know I'm a 'lil hypocritical, here...

There's nothing wrong with future tech.

But then you poke fun at me for RPing fantasy? Nice double standard if you think about it.

I'm not trying to be an ass, but I'm just wondering why you'd defend future tech yet poo-poo on fantasy.

Personally I feel the way Tech should be approached is to remeber that as a relatively freeform game we are in essence only as powerfull as we say we are. So tech (no matter how advanced) should be used with a certain ammount of decorum. My biggest issue with most "future tech" users is a lack of creativity, which turns it from cool sci-fi "future tech" into UBER-tech

"GREAT BIG GIANT ROBOT PWNZR" is really tiring... why not try some neat and subtle future tech...or take a few hints from the old sci-fi writers and have your future tech still be relatively fragile to modern weaponry (because by all rights you dont need diamond hard stuff to protect against lasers...so bullets usually punch right through them)

Also Its a bit extream to begin limiting the roleplay of others with the rampant applicaiton of UBER-tech.

"oh yeah well you cant do _______________ because my stuff is too advanced"

Flaws are what stories are written about! and arent we all really just coming up with chaotic literature (like comic books)??? If not then ill go play over there *points at the corner* and anyone who wants to join me...wether they be future tech, modern, fantasy, Bizzaro world, whatever can join me...and well figure out how to bridge those gaps with solid storytelling :D


anyway thats me!

The Last Patriot

Down, AMF. No random fighting here. I'm keepin this little ol' thread as calm as can be. If you've got a gripe, take it to PM or something. (and that goes for everyone)

But then you poke fun at me for RPing fantasy? Nice double standard if you think about it.

Que?

If you mean my comment in your thread about the war with Allenea, that wasn't me poking fun at you, it was voicing interest. If it's something else I've said, TG me, as I honestly don't remember anything like that.

Tag for future posts.

Que?

If you mean my comment in your thread about the war with Allenea, that wasn't me poking fun at you, it was voicing interest. If it's something else I've said, TG me, as I honestly don't remember anything like that.

Then my apologies, it is often hard to determine the "tone" of a post.

If you are indeed interested, there is an upcoming RP between New Genoa and myself involving 'The Forbidden Isle'.

Down, AMF. No random fighting here. I'm keepin this little ol' thread as calm as can be. If you've got a gripe, take it to PM or something. (and that goes for everyone)


Again, it's hard to determine the 'tone' of a post. I was merely asking Hack a question.

Obviously, the only way to fix it is to be a past tech nation! Everyone get those crusade knight blueprints out of the cupboard, 'cos its time for some ye olde wars!!!11

Mm, that might not actually be that bad an idea... would be a nice relief from all that rushing about at Mach 2 we do nowadays.

'Course, for me to participate it'd have to be a past fantasy tech RP.

Again, it's hard to determine the 'tone' of a post. I was merely asking Hack a question.

Roger that, man. Like you said, its hard to determine such things, and being paranoid of flame wars, I wield my fire extinguisher quite judicioiusly!

If you are indeed interested, there is an upcoming RP between New Genoa and myself involving 'The Forbidden Isle'.
TG me with a link once you're up and running with that.[/hijack]

Just contributing my $0.02 to the topic.

Personally, I think the main reason why many modern nations are OMG I IGNORE FUTURE TECH is because of the very large gap in technology, and the disadvantage it creates. I mean, if one player has Abrams tanks and M16s, what chance does he stand against ubermelta hoverships and plasma rifles.

Another example I thought of when looking at Resi's storefront. Some of his robot soldiers go 80 mph (walking), have miniguns and whatnot. How the heck could my soldiers stand up to that? Current militaries are trying to get their footsoldiers to march 7 mph with full gear, and these robots go faster than tanks! You can see a problem with that?

The solution I have seen some use, is to have part of the military be "modern" and part of it be "future" For example, both Knootoss and Vegana have space fleets, but their armies and navies AFAIK are modern tech.

As for me, I've thought about doing that- keeping my Earth stuff modern tech but use my Mars colony for quasi-future tech (i.e. Space: Above and Beyond or SeaQuest) stuff.) But then if NYNJ can use Shermans on Mars, then...

Also, consider how in Stargate SG-1 our heroes (who are mostly modern-tech) defeat the Gou'ald and others (who are future tech)...

Bump

I understand the uncertainty a modern tech nation might feel when dealing
with a future tech nation. Kormanthor started out as modern tech, and still
buy's & manufacture's modern tech for use on Earth. What I would like to remind you all of is that many future tech nations protect Earth from invasion. I'm sure you all have seen " INDEPENDENCE DAY " . The possibility of invasion from an advanced alien culture is real in NS, and possible in the RL world. Kormanthor's future tech will always be used to protect Earth, it doesn't matter to me what tech your country is. What matters to me is where your head is, I don't like bullies . :( I will always at least attempt to protect the underdog from unfair aggression. Hopefully this post will somehow help to bridge that gap between modern and future tech countries of NS.
Signed

KOR

( No one likes to be run over as depicted in this image )

http://usera.imagecave.com/kormanthor/oceanBBGN.jpg

I'd like it if this entire thread could do that, actually. That was the whole point of it; reconciliation between Future and Modern Tech. They dont necessarily need to exclude one another, if played right. But then again, thats the theme of the entire thread..
Playing them right.

I guess I'll quickly restate my opinion...
Modern tech+Future tech=Okay!
Future era+Modern era=Bad!
Temporarily adjusting your era to RP with someone from a different era=Okay!

Realism is rather important in my IC happenings.
Yes, I have to redo my land claims.

I guess I'll quickly restate my opinion...
Modern tech+Future tech=Okay!
Future era+Modern era=Bad!

You might want to restate that so it actually makes sense.

Temporarily adjusting your era to RP with someone from a different era=Okay!So... Screw continuity or any kind of ongoing... well, history of your nation for the sake of participating in some random thread?

Yeah, right... Ya'know, you can have multiple nations for this kind of thing.

I have seen that alot of people are missing a valid point about 'modern techchnology' even today we see examples of countries having different levels of technology.

Most recently the conflict in Iraq. Saddam's mob were stuck with aging t-64s and unguided scud missiles. Yet the US were using cruise missiles capable of leveling only a single building surrounded by a flock of civilian cities.

I didnt see saddam's player screaming ooc that the US should stop using such godmoddish technolgoy since he's only using ww2 or pre-ww2 technology and not this 2004 tech!

People forget that as a nation grows older, it's understandings and adventurous natures are growing with it. To simply say "MY technology is what we have today yet I have 3 billion people and an IT sector that pwnz yet I'm still using gigahertz systems cause anything else is godmodding" Is quite simply foolishly godmodding yourself into a rut where you can just whine about people with their terahertz or what ever systems and stuff.

Sure there is some wild stuff on NS, but tech != victory. I could send in a billion omg floaty tankz with lazers and missilez of d00m at someone and all they'd have to do is figure out a weak spot and use it to their advantage.

The Viet-cong are a prime example and an unfortunate one of using lesser technology to be a right pain in the arse for the 'advanced' technology of the time. Technology isnt the beginning or the end of anything on here, it's how you use it and how you treat other players.

To sit there and go "OMG YOU USE FUTURE TECH I EEGNOERZ JOO" is quite simply an insult to the other player, because you're ignoring him without giving him a chance to prove his RP ability.

Arrogence is a common injury of many players of Nationstates these days, even I'm affected by it. That's where the problem lies, we all think we're better than everyone else so obviously our shit must be the best shit or nothing is.

END

the problem with future tec is not future TEC but the viability of future warfare and the focus on military armament that takes place when gamers focus on military conflict.

even if one posits the possibility of an unlimited warfare situation signifigantly far into this planets future it is shere ignorance to immagine an unlimited supply of fossle fuels or even nuclear fissionables.

and when you introduce conflict between parties from worlds in different solar systems you've introduced an whole new can of logistical worms.

if anyone were to exercize the immagination to roll play THESE two factors convincingly, well that would be one thing.

i don't know if that's been done here. i'm sure it could. if that is what people were interested in and wanted to do.

i don't see a problem with doing this.

except

that in focusing exclusively on military action, in military contexts and scenarios, or potentialy militarily implying diplomatic situations, there seems to be a great deal of ignorance and indifferece to the greater context of everyday life. civilian sentient life and the natural cycles of renewal upon which all life is dependent and the depence in turn of them an natural diversity for their viability.

it's a big universe out there, and simply focusing on armed conflict over territory or even economic territory without taking this into account in more then just a passing acknowledgement of a pittiful triffling few of its implications is shere ignorance.

i'm all for future tecnology. 110%, 200% even: in a future of depleted combustables and fissionables, where warfare with godlike weaponry becomes a ludicriss improbability.

if you want real future tec challanges how about the challange of sustainability itself. of using tecnology to live closer to and in greater harmony with the divirsity of the web of life on this world, or some other.

how about the nuts and bolts and nitty gritty of infrastructure in that post petrolium and with it post much of what we are familiar with that depends upon it to the degree that it does context?

THIS is the kind of "futur tec" that interests me. and interests me most deeply and to the core it does.

and it need not be limited to thousands of years in some possible future or even a few hundred, but merely decades or even years or months.

do any of you read proffessional scientific and engineering journals? keep abreast of developments taking place now and conjectured on the social implications of their implimentation? this is where REAL science fiction is born.

in the cradle so to speak of REAL future tecnologies.

i do know that at least some of you do. and that SOME (not nearly equal to what you can find in any good university engineering library) of this kind of material can also be found on the web.

just a little to think about if you want to introduce and use REALISTICLY BELIEVABLE future tecnologies.

in addition to real world scientific and tecnological journals and publications of GOOD science fiction like analog, f&SF, asimov's, et. c. you might also considder the WoFfS. the world future society and their journal: The Futurist.

=^^=
.../\...

It's a good thing that synthesising 'fossil' fuels and creating energy sources that don't use them will always be impossible, isn't it? And it's a good thing that everyone agrees that fossil fuels are running out in NS. Otherwise your post would look really, well, ridiculous.

Oh, wait...

....Well, I'd say thats an interesting point of view there, to say the very least.

But....One needs to take into account that petroleum and fissionables are not the only sources of energy in the world, at least in the future. Furthermore, it is much more likely that instead of trying to 'learn to live in closer harmony with the web of life' or whatnot that we, the human race, are much more likely in the future to spread out in search of more resources to sustain ourselves and through conflict over said resources. Maybe many more years down the line, the race's hunger for power will have ebbed to the point of a total shift in the direction you desire, but that will not happen for a long time, save for a cataclysmic event that changes everything and everyone...and even then, its iffy.

As for "real science fiction?" Theres no such thing. Thats why its called "Fiction."

Now....there are several different types of Sci-Fi; I'll generalize with two categories: Speculative (The stuff youre talking about, stuff based off of events or technologies and such) and, for lack of a better term.."Well, why the hell not" types (No substantial basis in reality besides the basics). FutureTech in these forums shouldn't be all limited to the speculative stuff based in reality..sometimes, its just plain fun to go running off with something tha'd probably never work in reality, but for the sake of the story, works perfectly fine. Once again, It all comes back down to a point made early on in this thread:
Its not the Tech you Use, its How you Use it.

Hrm. Last paragraph didnt make much sense. Oh well. Maybe it will to someone.

You might want to restate that so it actually makes sense.English-->Math=Confused you? :D
Screw continuity or any kind of ongoing... well, history of your nation for the sake of participating in some random thread?No, RPing in a different era than you normally do. I RP in about the modern world, but if I wanted to, I could flesh out my nation's past or future by RPing in those eras.
Ya'know, you can have multiple nations for this kind of thing.RPing with more than one nation=Okay! :D ;)
I have seen that alot of people are missing a valid point about 'modern techchnology' even today we see examples of countries having different levels of technology.That is what I meant by "Modern tech+Future tech=Okay!". The technology does not matter, but the era does ("Future era+Modern era=Bad!"). I can not interact with a nation in what is the future (or past) for my nation; I have to (or the future/past nation do the opposite), at least temporarily, move my RP era to the future (or past) so that we're in the same era. ("Temporarily adjusting your era to RP with someone from a different era=Okay!")
I could RP with a nation in the year 1500, but not while RPing in the year 2010. I'd have to RP in the year 1500 for a while, or that person would have to move up to 2010. However, it that nation is also in 2010, but for some reason has 1500-level technology, no adjustment is necessary.
Hrm. Last paragraph didnt make much sense. Oh well. Maybe it will to someone.I understood it, but I disagree.

English-->Math=Confused you? :D

Um, it was your total failure to define the difference between 'tech' and 'era.' You do realise one leads to the other, ya?

I could RP with a nation in the year 1500, but not while RPing in the year 2010. I'd have to RP in the year 1500 for a while, or that person would have to move up to 2010. However, it that nation is also in 2010, but for some reason has 1500-level technology, no adjustment is necessary.

So the fact that there's still plenty of cultures at different levels of technology in the real world doesn't lead you to think that nations in different 'eras' [bearing in mind an 'era' is an entirely artificial construct] can interact? What if they just count time differently? It's not like every real-life country says it's 2004 by their calendar, why should NS be any different?

Um, it was your total failure to define the difference between 'tech' and 'era.'Technology=The application of science, especially to industrial or commercial objectives.
Era=A period of time characterized by particular circumstances, events, or personages.
You do realise one leads to the other, ya?They can, but there can also be a nation in the present with abnormally advanced or outdated technology.
So the fact that there's still plenty of cultures at different levels of technology in the real world doesn't lead you to think that nations in different 'eras' can interact?Technology!=Era
Example of Era!=When people had muskets
Example of Era=A period of time, the beginning and ending points chosen based on when Europeans predominantly used muskets in infantry warfare
What if they just count time differently? It's not like every real-life country says it's 2004 by their calendar, why should NS be any different?I'm not talking about years, I'm talking about now or this many of this unit of time with this specified length ago or in the future.

I'm not talking about years, I'm talking about now or this many of this unit of time with this specified length ago or in the future.

A certain problem with that is that every thread in NS that isn't explictly tagged as historical or future-only happens 'now,' so your concept of an 'era' is horribly flawed. I've never heard anyone claim to be attacking a nation 'from the future' or 'from the past' outside the very, very few time travel plotlines we have.

A certain problem with that is that every thread in NS that isn't explictly tagged as historical or future-only happens 'now,' so your concept of an 'era' is horribly flawed.I think an era can be merely implied in the content.
I've never heard anyone claim to be attacking a nation 'from the future' or 'from the past' outside the very, very few time travel plotlines we have.It's not from, but in. I've seen RPs with nations explicitly RPing farther back in time than they typically do.

I think an era can be merely implied in the content.

But you shot yourself in the foot by saying that any technology can interact with any other technology, so by your standard the era cannot be implied by the content.

It's not from, but in. I've seen RPs with nations explicitly RPing farther back in time than they typically do.

Which would be those tagged as 'historical RPs,' as I said. From what I can gather, what your 'problem' here is would be if, say, one of my characters interacted with one of yours in a history RP and I didn't bother to adjust his age accordingly. I'm not even aware this is a problem, since I've never seen anyone do it.

But you shot yourself in the foot by saying that any technology can interact with any other technology, so by your standard the era cannot be implied by the content.It can be implied, but what one infers may be incorrect.
From what I can gather, what your 'problem' here is would be if, say, one of my characters interacted with one of yours in a history RP and I didn't bother to adjust his age accordingly.It's not so much that (I'm not quite that picky. ;)) as you RPing in 2496 and trying to attack me in 2010. If you somehow manage to acquire 2496-level technology in 2010, that's okay with me.

It's not so much that (I'm not quite that picky. ;)) as you RPing in 2496 and trying to attack me in 2010. If you somehow manage to acquire 2496-level technology in 2010, that's okay with me.

But considering in that instance your 2010 nation must exist in my timeline for me to have any reason to declare war on or attack you [barring the many NS wars started for no reason] isn't 'it's the second' a forgone conclusion?

But considering in that instance your 2010 nation must exist in my timeline for meHow about on your timeline somewhere to the left of where you typically RP?
isn't 'it's the second' a forgone conclusion?Because most people (AFAIK) don't make the era/tech distinction, I usually assume a future tech nation is also future era.

Nianacio, could you please elaborate upon your "I disagree" statement from my posting?

I don't tend to do this kind of RP, as I'm a sports-RPing nation.

However, I believe that broadly speaking, nations should only be involved in warfare with those of same or very similar technological development, and should agree on said level.

How about on your timeline somewhere to the left of where you typically RP?
Because most people (AFAIK) don't make the era/tech distinction, I usually assume a future tech nation is also future era.


Well there's always the ol' slingshot around the sun to fall back on... if
Kirk can do it so can we.


;)

KOR

Assuming things aren't really a good practice because it doesm't mean
that you are correct. Also there's the old saying about assuming to consider.

Nianacio, could you please elaborate upon your "I disagree" statement from my posting?Sure.
FutureTech in these forums shouldn't be all limited to the speculative stuff based in reality.I try to be realistic on NationStates, and I guess I'm not very accommodating that way. :o I don't try to stop unrealistic RPers (unless they'll affect me), but I won't RP with them. I've considered making a realistic future tech nation, but decided that the other future tech nations weren't realistic enough.
I agree with this: "sometimes, its just plain fun to go running off with something tha'd probably never work in reality", so I'm not sure why I disagree with the first excerpt.
Well there's always the ol' slingshot around the sun to fall back on... if
Kirk can do it so can we.


;)What?

That was a reference to star trek there.

And I'm saying in my statement that one shouldnt limit themselves with 'realistic' simply because we dont know nearly enough about how things really work...some of our 'realistic' ideas might just be fantasies of how things could work, when in reality some crazy 'fantasy-esque' idea could be the truth.

We dont know nearly enough..sooo...Why not play around with it a bit?

That was a reference to star trek there.I recognized Kirk, but don't understand the reference. :\
Why not play around with it a bit?Because I've been infected by the realism bug. Stay back, it's contagious! :D

Ewww. They need a vaccine for that one...

And its a reference to both an episode in the original series and one in the movie STIV: The Voyage Home or somesuch. They slingshot 'round the sun to go back in time.

Dont ask how. Just nod your head and smile.

Sure.
I try to be realistic on NationStates, and I guess I'm not very accommodating that way. :o I don't try to stop unrealistic RPers (unless they'll affect me), but I won't RP with them. I've considered making a realistic future tech nation, but decided that the other future tech nations weren't realistic enough.
I agree with this: "sometimes, its just plain fun to go running off with something tha'd probably never work in reality", so I'm not sure why I disagree with the first excerpt.
What?


Originally Posted by Kormanthor
Well there's always the ol' slingshot around the sun to fall back on... if
Kirk can do it so can we.

;)

What?


I thought that the sling shot around the sun method of timetravel
was general knowledge.


Star Trek Four, I believe is the most recent explaination of the sling shot
around the sun if you care to rent or buy it. Basically, warp powered ships such as the Enterprise can travel though time by sling shotting themselves
around the sun which is called TIMEWARP. Please forgive me for assuming
this to be general knowledge, but then again I am proud to be a Trekkie
from way back. ;)

KOR

Ewww. They need a vaccine for that one...

And its a reference to both an episode in the original series and one in the movie STIV: The Voyage Home or somesuch. They slingshot 'round the sun to go back in time.

Dont ask how. Just nod your head and smile.


Or you could ask Spock sense he's the expert on such things.

Kor :)

It is my opinion every technology should be based on a "grain" of reality. You can develop it further from there.

My Gravity Drives, for example, are based upon the posigravity drives from the Alan Dean Foster Commonwealth and Flinx series. He based his FTL upon the Kaluza-Klein Theory (http://www-th.phys.rug.nl/~schaar/htmlreport/node12.html).

As far as completely basing future tech solidly in reality...

We don't know enough about reality to acutarely base such things. The hard drive and processor in your computer was not even imaginable 10-15 years ago.

Floppy Disks were thought to be here to stay because nobody would ever need to transfer more than 1.44 Meg of data anywhere. Now you are going to be hard pressed to locate one that is factory new possessing a flopy drive.

someone from the 90's
Firewire? What the hell is that? USB? I haven't a clue. Just give me a box of floppy disks for Christmas and I will be happy.

Just an example using what is in front of you at this moment. Think of the money you would get if tou could take your computer back to 1990 and sell it to the highest bidder?