NationStates Jolt Archive

.....is backwards.

The way I see it, there's a chronic problem, some would say characteristic, of many new players coming onto the game warmongering, throwing their weight around, essentially acting like they were some big fat 2.8 billion pop nation.

But there's also a problem that many of the older players don't WANT war. At all! They've OOCly gotten far too attached to their nations to want to risk anything in a war.

So you have small weak nations acting aggressive, and big powerful nations being comparitively passive. This would imply that as population growth continues, nations get inherently more stable and conservative.

Is that right, as in realistic? I'm not sure. What about the pressures of population growth? But more to the point of NS player mentality...

When I was a new player, I wanted lots of war. (SB was then, as now, a heavily militarized country, so it's quite in-context). I was far more suited, it seems, to running a huge powerful country back THEN. Anyone else like that?

I think the NS player evolves inversely to the population growth. It's backwards.

I think new players should be given huge powerful nations to RP with and old players should have to struggle with weak nations (thus being able to focus more on plots and politics and subtle diplomacy). It would also force experienced players to have to cope with things, as a real nation does, that are beyond it's control (like aggressive, vastly powerful nations waging war constantly!).

As it is now, it's almost as if having a certain amount of population and people think you're invincible. Yawn, how boring can you get. In reality, all nations are invincible here, unless RP'd destroyed (by the player!) or DEATed.

What do you think? Personally, I like the switching idea, but I think no one is going to want to give up their old nation and do anything new, especially if it means not being so 'invincible.' Hell I'd be hard pressed to do it myself, but then maybe I never outgrew my 'warlike' phase...

[/end meandering rant]

I would also say that when the larger nations fight, they think that every single battle, no matter how small; they win because of their larger population....

What about real life? You don't see China, the US, Pakistan, India and so on all clamouring for war right? India and Pakistan have gotten the closest but they've tried to avoid it every time.

I dunno, I could be wrong. It's too early in the morning for this.

I wouldn't like it, for this reason:
As we older players got smaller, and the n00bs were bigger, who would they pick on? People smaller than themselves, i.e. us. Consequently, we would constantly be annihilated in RP wars with n00bs, and we would be unable to do anything except accept defeat, and continually get even weaker.
Personally, I like the power in being able to grind n00bs underfoot, and I don't like the thought of being helpless while ground under the foot of a n00b.
Do you?

Well, you're probably right. I don't see what can be done about it however. I would like it if the 'bigger' nations would be a bit more open to recieving damage etc. Everyone has their own personal reason why they cannot be invaded or destroyed.

On the other hand, I would not want all the older nations to be as warmongering as the new ones. Personally, I'd like to see more diplomatic and socioeconomic RP instead of war but that is just me ;)

You're right. I've been wanting to flex my muscles for awhile now, but there's no wars going on, so I can't.

I miss the good ol' days when there was a World War every 2 weeks. Gave you something to do, and it made me a better RPer.

what about having the populations just stop gowing at, say, 3 bn (i don't think anybody got that far yet, so it wouldn't cause to many porblmes setting people back) so that the big nations have to get onvolved aggressively if they want to keep their power?or just have people start declaring pop caps? or whatever.

I would also say that when the larger nations fight, they think that every single battle, no matter how small; they win because of their larger population....

Not true. Older nations have more established and experienced militaries than newer nations, and that is a huge edge. Plus over the NS years older nations' militaries have been funrnished and refurnished with the latest weapons. As you see, older nations do have the edge against younger nations.

I too have noticed the newer nations throwing their weight around and openly (ICly and OOCly) disrespecting the veterans, which is why after almost half a year I'm going to war again. It was fun stomping a few terrorist newbies, but then the rest of them call me a "war mongering newb hater". :roll:

Oh well, I guess we can't win.....

Or how about just ignoring the population numbers and focusing instead on how a person writes and RPs? Maybe that's a bit too daring...

My thought process was the reverse. I've never had any interest in war, but am on the verge of trying out a very slow war for the first time. (Well, maybe it's more of a scoio-economic RP too, that remains to be seen i guess.) I'd say old players could get the small and weak nations, and do a great job of them, by just starting up new countries.

My thought process was the reverse. I've never had any interest in war, but am on the verge of trying out a very slow war for the first time. (Well, maybe it's more of a scoio-economic RP too, that remains to be seen i guess.) I'd say old players could get the small and weak nations, and do a great job of them, by just starting up new countries.

I wouldn't like it, for this reason:
As we older players got smaller, and the n00bs were bigger, who would they pick on? People smaller than themselves, i.e. us. Consequently, we would constantly be annihilated in RP wars with n00bs, and we would be unable to do anything except accept defeat, and continually get even weaker.
Personally, I like the power in being able to grind n00bs underfoot, and I don't like the thought of being helpless while ground under the foot of a n00b.
Do you?

Well, okay. But playing NS isn't about winning wars. It's pretty hard to annihilate an RP personality. THat's what people don't get. They equate fall of IC nation with END OF NS RP FOR ME. And a n00b is still a n00b, so a n00b's ability to really RP the total and complete annihilation of another player's nation, and characters, and territory, oh and history too is limited.

If older nations are good RPers (I don't think this is neccesarily so) it shouldn't be too much of a problem, and it'd be interesting too. The best stories are not about the most victorious of armies.

And think about it, what was the last nation-player you seen get annihilated? I can't think of any cept those that get DEATed... and they still seem to be around, sometimes, some of them.

And when everyone usually ignores wars so they don't have to lose too much anyway, getting annihilated seems an unlikely possibility, even in the event of warmongering and powerful n00bs, no?

Not entirely true.

I have only fought one war- well after I achieved 150 million population. I have had several military actions of one sort or another, including one "war" wherein no fighting took place. Several other nations have never had a military episode at all.

Similarly, while I am a really massive nation, I do not consider myself invincible- especially in the tactical environment. I recently roleplayed a skirmish with a nation 1/3 my size, the parameters of which ensured that the battle ended as a draw. A longer battle would likely have resulted in a clear victory for my forces- just because my reinforcements were closer than Argyllia's. Size does matter, but size can be a limiting factor as well.

I have always been more interested in the roleplaying aspects of the game than military action itself. Most roleplaying involves a conflict of one sort or another, of course. But the roleplaying is more important than the conflict. Wolfish is currently roleplaying a war wherein he is planning to lose. The battles preceding the "Desolation of Wolfish" are roleplayed to strict standards of quality, with several uninvolved "referees" (myself among them) to keep things on an even keel.

Many younger nations do seem to be rabid militarists, but this is probably an illusion of perception. The stereotypical newcomer may indeed act as though the only way to get notice and respect is to invade everyone within sight or hearing, but not all new players act that way. Furthermore, a large number of the players in the game are between 12-18 years of age- or at least act as if they were that age. This will affect both their actions and everyone's perception of the norm for the game.

Granted that I (and Wolfish) may be exceptions rather than the rule, I still think that the initial premise of this thread is flawed. Not all young nations are warmongering lunatics. Not all older nations are cautious and subtle.

TEO

And think about it, what was the last nation-player you seen get annihilated? I can't think of any cept those that get DEATed... and they still seem to be around, sometimes, some of them.

ADK Mars. Population still exists, but the old territory has been entirely occupied by others (me being one of them). Kinda like, errr...

What you would expect to happen, eh?

You see... being defeated, being entirely defeated doesn´t mean that you can´t continue RPing, though it sounds almost like you believe it means exactly that (Aka, one would have to restart as a new nation).

But you still have a population, lots of characters, resistance, cooperative elements, refugees...

That being said...

If you have to lose something, you begin being more cautious about it, yes.

This is sane.

There is nothing cowardly about it, it is just that: Normal. Reasonable.

So I can`t really see your point.

And finally, your shiny... complaint? about not enough war...

Start one if you want one.

Thing is, most old nations don't have reasons to go to war. Don't get me wrong, some do, and god knows new nations who warmonger have less reason, it's just that when you're a veteran, you look back see how stupid it is to go to war for no reason.

ADK Mars. Population still exists, but the old territory has been entirely occupied by others (me being one of them). Kinda like, errr...

You see... being defeated, being entirely defeated doesn´t mean that you can´t continue RPing, though it sounds almost like you believe it means exactly that (Aka, one would have to restart as a new nation).

But you still have a population, lots of characters, resistance, cooperative elements, refugees...


ADK Mars still RPs, which is the point. I never said ya had to restart as a new nation...


That being said...

If you have to lose something, you begin being more cautious about it, yes.



What do you, the player, have to lose by you, the nation, losing a war?


And finally, your shiny... complaint? about not enough war...

Start one if you want one.

I've seen how that goes. Everyone ignores each other so that no one's ego gets bruised.

I've never been a war mongerer...All of my military actions have been in defense of another nation. (I'm counting the invasion force that never landed (I think the invader got sick of people standing up for me and ignored it before he got past the bombardment :D), because that was in response to my intervention.)
what about having the populations just stop gowing at, say, 3 bn (i don't think anybody got that far yet, so it wouldn't cause to many porblmes setting people back) so that the big nations have to get onvolved aggressively if they want to keep their power?Some, including me, have broken 3 billion. At least one nation with the pop bug has even broken 4 billion. :x
But playing NS isn't about winning wars.I think it is to some people.
If older nations are good RPers (I don't think this is neccesarily so)Yep, I'm not. I think.
Everyone has their own personal reason why they cannot be invaded or destroyed.My reasons are logical...(I do accept that my nation could be destroyed, by the way. I just don't think anyone would go to all of the trouble.)
And think about it, what was the last nation-player you seen get annihilated?Mmm...One of Magic China's nations, maybe.
What do you, the player, have to lose by you, the nation, losing a war?Lots of time, maybe.

It would also force experienced players to have to cope with things, as a real nation does, that are beyond it's control (like aggressive, vastly powerful nations waging war constantly!).

old players can actually do this by choice, by declaring an RP cap to their population and RPing their nations with weaknesses etc. SeOCC's population is ~300m, not 2.6B whatever, and i know several others (who can speak up if they want) who have made similar caps. SeOCC is defenseless (L says i hide behind Svea Riga's and Celdonia's skirts ... which would be fair if they wore skirts), has no natural resources, blah blah blah.

if people choose to give themselves some interesting tweaks to their nations we won't need to force them. the principle is sound, but the execution is sketchy.

What do you, the player, have to lose by you, the nation, losing a war?

I, the player, am not relevant, since all decisions should at least be covered [Hard to keep ooc out entirely, but keeping it out as much as possible would be nice] by my schizophrenic self (the nation) line of thought.

I don´t start conflicts just because 'I want war and I am willing to lose!'

If I start a conflict, I have an IC reason, and I mean a reason that has developed over time, by various interactions with others as well as internal developments.

The fun thing is probably that I am currently involved in a conflict and I`m planning two more... Who am I to argue the way I`m arguing? o.O

PS: There were at least two more arguments I had, but for some reason, I forgot them <.<

I'm a crappy RPer. That's why I don't get involved in alot of RPs.

When I was still The Sean Empire, I was considered one of the worst RPers on the forums.

Ah, the good ol' days...

That reminds me. Is the bisons still around?

The thing is that if you start a war, everybody gangs up on you, even IF you have good reasons. I tried it a few times when I was just getting above 750 mil...anybody remember that Darugones (Whatever his name was) thing?
Yeah, he attacked ME, then when I annexed him and informed him of the million or so troops gearing up about twelve billion-pop nations aid "OMG! U CANNUT DO TAHT!" and threatened me with their alliances.
But, aside from that, most of the 'new' nations that come along are vets or disgruntled DEAT's that come along to bug people.

I don't think anyone would care if you started a war these days.

I don't think anyone would care if you started a war these days.I would. My job is jumping into wars and beating up the aggressor and anyone who kills civilians on purpose.

I would say I don't get into many wars just because how I started out playing my nation. Size isn't an factor because size is both an advange but an disadavange as well. Most of the wars and miltary actions I have taken part of have been with allies on my side, The Tordoran wars were an good example of that. In fact the Tordoran wars also had good examples of waging an guerrilla war against occuping forces, the Tordorans even had multable factions and they were using hunting rifles, bobytraps, morters and other low tech weapons against people with hight tech weapons and armor and drove them out. The about the only war I got into on my own was the Galdanian conflect when they were purging christians and I got lucky that I didn't get invaded.

I don't think anyone would care if you started a war these days.I would. My job is jumping into wars and beating up the aggressor and anyone who kills civilians on purpose.

Okay maybe there's a few people who care but not a lot.

forums suck too much for a good war to start.

I dont know really.. you got to think of war as a product on these forums.. how good it is, depends on how good you market and sell it..

You write up a really good intro that gets everyones blood pumping, have a few people to stay unbiased and act as referees, and help maintain a good standard of fun rp throught it, then you got a good war. (so to speak)

You know why I hate war RP on NS?

Because it sucks. Period. End of story. A lot of veterans harken back to the Golden Age of NationStates when the Slaver War was a masterpiece of good RP. People went to war because it was The Thing To Do.

That was then. Nowadays I see things like I invade you with my MILLYONS of troops! or I blow you all up with my SUPARWEAPON! Uh huh. Not interested. I've seen bits and pieces of wars that involved some tremendously good writing. By and large, they're very rare.

In the year I've been in Nationstates, I've gotten involved in two wars. I didn't particularly enjoy either of them, because the people I was fighting against wanted to claim MASSIVE, OVERWHELMING resources. I watched folks complain because they didn't like what other folks were doing, or didn't like how folks responded to their actions. I watched pleasant folks and potentially good role-players turn embittered and bitchy. All because nobody wanted to coordinate gracefully, and other folks wanted to get in on the action without consulting any of the active participants.

You know what? I'll pass. I've always made it a policy to avoid war RP. One reason is because I'm just not interested. I became even less interested when I saw how nations judged military capacity by population size. Then started quibbling over technology levels. Then started arguing over relevance of UN rankings.

It's all about the role-playing. That's it. I refuse to go to war with anyone now, regardless of who or why. It's just not worth it. Give me a good cold war over a hot one any day; there's less bitching about damage and more discussion about how to make it work.

This won't be resolved by reversing the way populations effect. That'll just shift the focus of whining. It'll be solved by people losing interest in being HUGE and more interested in recognising this game for what it really is: cooperative role-play.

Can't post... head reeling... waves of cynical fatalism... crippling my fingers!

Similarly, while I am a really massive nation, I do not consider myself invincible- especially in the tactical environment.Similar. I've got a total of 11 warships, only one of which is of significant weapons capacity, and none of which can reach a combat zone in under a month. Economic, diplomatic, and interplayer RP is much easier.
However, I find that economic RP is hindered in the same way as War RP is. No one wants to admit that they aren't the best. And you can't have any good econopolitical intrigue going on when everyone claims to be totally self-contained and not have any import or export dependancies.old players can actually do this by choice, by declaring an RP cap to their population and RPing their nations with weaknesses etc. SeOCC's population is ~300m, not 2.6B whatever, and i know several others (who can speak up if they want) who have made similar caps. SeOCC is defenseless (L says i hide behind Svea Riga's and Celdonia's skirts ... which would be fair if they wore skirts), has no natural resources, blah blah blah.

if people choose to give themselves some interesting tweaks to their nations we won't need to force them. the principle is sound, but the execution is sketchy.In my case, it's not entirely by choice- it's just what makes sense. There is no way 1.82 billion people can fit entirely into a series of spacestations. And those spacestations provide a lot of other interesting tweaks as well.

War RPs suck. There is more ranting than actual IC posts.

In the real world it usually is smaller Nations that cause wars all the time. The larger, more economically stable Nations really have no need to charge about causing problems, and the other large Nations act as a check. When you're big and you start clamouring for war, other big Nations sit up and take notice.... then stuff happens... like World War I. If you're some Banana Republic and you attack another small Banana Republic nobody much cares. If you're a Banana Republic and attack a Big Nation you tend to get trampled all over (Falklands War) and still nobody really cares overly much (except of course the Nation you attacked) and this is because the pety struggles of small Nations have little influence on the world.

Dyelli Beybi has the problem of large Nation inertia. It is a large, unpleasant, and well...evil state, but nobody is willing to try to put a stop to Dyelli Beybi as it's too big.

I have no need for war. Although, I can tell you that I'm planning something that I hope to be big... a non-war RP.

You'd have to fight me to give up my big fat 2.9 billion, Santa! :p
Nice idea in theory, difficult to impliment in practice.

OOC:

Lol Crabs! But actually, I can see what he's driving at. Are there other ways to stir the pot? Basically, the problem is that since no one can really lose then no one can really win. Hence, no risk is really entailed.

And I'm at a lose as to how to curb n00b behaviour. I was an idiot when I first started (ask Eizen) but have since ammended my ways, I think. I'd like to believe that the stickies do help people and that the ridiculous behaviour we see on the boards are still in the minority.

I would much rather be a nation of half a billion than nearly five times that!

I would say that many new nations just think - "I must be able to win... because I spend 99% of my budget on my super army and I have conscription".

I hate that. I want an army of 800 000 at maximum! I would prefer if it was 10 000, but I am too big now.

I have never been at war. It's about being a Chinese nation - just get your head down and make a good economy. I have come to the brink of war, but everyone just says "I'll nuke you!". We are decommissioning most of our nuclear weapons now. We don't want a big army. Most wars in NS are new nations trying to throw their weight around, discovering they have none and falling over then just denying you can hit them. They should behave like real nations - avoid wars, especially nuclear attack, at all costs. It is not worth it.

I am from the UK and what my grandparents say about war and all we learn about it makes you realise that it is not worth it.

Abroad, you just get a bullet in you. That's it. No glory.

At home, you are under constant torture, demoralisation and risk of death from bombs. You can't buy jam - there is rationing. Life is not normal. The economy suffers.

In WWII, my nation had to be rebuilt. The whole UK was ruined. We had to start again and WWII plagued the UK until 1980. Honestly, its effect was still felt 35 years later! The economy was gone. Millions were homeless.

Most of you are Americans - you have never fought a war with equals. As soon as Japan had a few victories you planned five nukes. Thankfully you only got 2 down and Tokyo and Kyoto were saved. The UK fought an equal. The world's greatest Empire - the naval force of the planet - struggled for 6 long, ruinous years against a military equal.

That is true war, not the idealistic button-pushing. Real war is sick. Xiang Gang renounces its right to inflict this on itself and others.

Two things, please read these. The first one is by Wilfred Owen and shows war abroad and the idealistic version at home. It is addressed to a pro-war poet. The second shows the hardship of war and the determination needed to win. For the UK to win, this is what was necessary. It is by Sir Winston Churchill. ('Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori' is Latin for 'how sweet and fitting it is to die for one's native land')

Dulce Et Decorum Est

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of disappointed shells that dropped behind.

GAS! Gas! Quick, boys!-- An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling
And floundering like a man in fire or lime.--
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.

In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.

If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,--
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie: Dulce et decorum est
Pro patria mori.

We shall go on to the end, we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our Island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and even if, which I do not for a moment believe, this Island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old.

OOC:

Xiang Gang, at the risk of sounding condescending, I'd like to think that no one here believes war to be such a wonderful thing. I too had relatives that served in WWII. But this is about war in a roleplay sense, and I think Santa has made some keen observations here.

But I generally play the game you do, that of a real nation. I haven't gotten into a big war at all, and I'm past the 2.5 billion mark. I just tend to bark once in a while. :wink:

Give me a good cold war over a hot one any day; there's less bitching about damage and more discussion about how to make it work.


OOC: Here here. There's not much more to say on the matter really.

Look, Ctan and Treznor, and everyone else who is OMG AGAINST WAR RP EVAR!, part of the reason it doesn't work is cuz people give up before it starts, declare that any NS war is going to suck, period. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know, and if you truly believe that every war RP you ever (or never) do is not going to work, then that's probably the case.

But for those of us whose nations are geared heavily towards the military, who've seen good war RP, and want to put some effort into things and try to make it work, I think there's hope.

And also, I happen to think a lot of people don't do war RP for the same reason RL nations avoid war-- too much trouble, essentially. And yet, this means that their IC nations can do whatever they want and never have to worry about war, because OOCly their players have signed that off. Pretty nice deal, being able to make IC actions without IC consequences because of an OOC dislike of war RP...

Not saying that's what you guys are like, but. Some are, undoubtedly.

Anyway, my post wasn't really about war so much as population. One solution is of course to just start a new nation up and be part of the young crowd, unable to throw political weight around with total impunity. This creates new challenges. Challenges are fun. Aren't they?

The other solution would be to give n00bs more population and thus power. Of course that's not going to happen. Nor did I think it would when I began this thread (else I woulda put it in Technical, no?)

But I can dream.

But back to war... I think what we need is a list of players who are willing to do war RPs (and lose or win as the cards may fall). That'd cut out a lot of bitching right there. And a list of players who can be counted on to be more or less impartial moderators.

Actually, I think Xiang Gang makes a good point without saying war RP 'an sich' is a bad thing.

At the risk of making broad generalisations (because there certainly are peaceful Americans and warmongering euro's/asians.) I think there is a difference of mindset involved here. The European experience with war, or at least the European experience of the people who are a bit older or care about history, is that war is a dreadful thing that should be avoided. ‘Nie Wieder’, as the Germans put it. ‘Never again.’

No offence, but I have heard many people (most of them Americans but that is beside the point) who think about war as a 'quick fix' to solve problems. What Xiang Gang rightfully concludes is that most US wars involve the government sending a bunch of troops to some distant land to solve things, win and then return home. This is also the US experience in WWI and WWII. The only exception I can think of is the civil war, but that was ages ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39167000/jpg/_39167659_bush300afp.jpg
'Mission Accomplished', mental image of war

For other people (the rest of the world, and particularly Europeans) war means millions of deaths, a nation ruined and totally bombed into submission, having to start over again. Prolonged Nazi occupation (for my country in WWII.) This is an experience of war 'at home' and the experiences of WWI and WWII have, I think profoundly shaped this attitude.

http://www.all-abroad.com/images/14bombed.jpg
'Dresden after being bombed', mental image of war

You saw this difference of mindset in the UnAPS attitude to the Allanean war too, it is a difference regardless of left-right, democrat-republican or whatever. Though there were a couple of very good American antiwar people who I really ought to mention ;)

RP war, I am simply saying, should be dealt with responsibly and not stupidly as with many new nations.

I am saddened to think of what my nation did to Germany and what was done to us.

Knootos, eines Tages gibt es möglicherweise Kriege nie wieder.

I've seen my share of good and bad war RP's.
I believe this is true for most veteran nations, and probably why many old nations are wary about it. They've wars go into the drain far too often

I believe wars (especially those amongst established players) should be well regulated. Otherwise past experience has shown you get 50+ nations who are otherwise uninvolved demanding to be let in.

In one case, I had a nation I had never heard of before (let alone interacted with) demand (not ask but DEMAND) that I and some others go to war to quell their thirst for RP. Stating that they would be "disappointed if we didn't" and that "If we were good RPers we would".
Quite frankly, this is a load of horseshit.
I am not here to please you, and I am not here to entertain you.
I am here for my own damn reasons and will RP as I damn well please.
If someone doesn't like it, I don't care.

I will go to war when it makes sense for my nation to persue such actions, NOT because someone else is bored and wants some action.

As for trading nations with new players, the idea sounds interesting in theory, but is laughable in practice. I've seen people who have put far too much work into their nations to simply hand them over to some dimwit who'll go fap off with their newfound might.
And instead of a couple players we've never heard of pestering us for a fight, we now have a hundred.

#tagged...

Look, Ctan and Treznor, and everyone else who is OMG AGAINST WAR RP EVAR!, part of the reason it doesn't work is cuz people give up before it starts, declare that any NS war is going to suck, period. There is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know, and if you truly believe that every war RP you ever (or never) do is not going to work, then that's probably the case.
Then those people won't do war RP's and will remain happy as long as those who do want them don't force an opposing mindset on them.

But for those of us whose nations are geared heavily towards the military, who've seen good war RP, and want to put some effort into things and try to make it work, I think there's hope.
Then you should get together and bash some heads. Then you'll be happy.

I don't see what the big deal is. Everyone should be able to group together with others of like mind and do what they please. If Group A wants to have balls and parties all the time, they can. If Group B wants to have deep sociopolitical struggles and intrigue, they can. If Group C wants the panzers to roll because "As you know, this means war!" then they can. Nothing forces Group A, B, or C to interact past the point where everyone is not having fun.

If you want nations with large populations to have wars, lead by example. If you want newbies to have more power, treat them as if they do (because appearance is reality when all one has are words on the page).

Scolo: I think group A, B and C pretty accurately describes the big families of NS roleplayers. :)

A roleplayed war can only succeed IF:
1. Victory, defeat, and conditions of surrender/armistice
2. Major battles, losses, heroics
3. Technologies being developed and used
4. Players involved
5. etc.
are all agreed upon BEFORE the war RP thread is begun. Needless to say, this does not happen very often. Check New Jupiter's RPs.

I don't war because:

1) I really have no reason to go to war.
2) There are no good wars anymore.
3) The only people who war these days are n00bs.
4) I am mostly a space nation, although I do keep a few WMDs and ground forces in one of my colonies.

Scolo: I think group A, B and C pretty accurately describes the big families of NS roleplayers. :)

OOC: What you forgot to add is the tendency (at least from what I've seen) of each group prejudging the other one.

Not all war RP is bad, and not all intrigue RP is good (with its pretensions of sophistication). I've done the "party" RP, the "intrigue" RP (here I'll include "diplomacy") but I haven't done "war" RP because, frankly, there hasn't been a good enough IC reason for Vrak to go to war - except when defending our turf. And, I should make a correction. I was in one big war RP (The Dozle invasion of the FKC) but that had a scripted outcome.

Not all war RPs have to be involving bazillions of troops with jillions of planes and tanks. A good old fashioned border skirmish could suffice.

Scolo: I think group A, B and C pretty accurately describes the big families of NS roleplayers. :)
Why do you think I used them? *grins*

A roleplayed war can only succeed IF:
1. Victory, defeat, and conditions of surrender/armistice
2. Major battles, losses, heroics
3. Technologies being developed and used
4. Players involved
5. etc.
are all agreed upon BEFORE the war RP thread is begun.I was in a successful war (Well, my part of the war was successful. The others weren't.) where we only vaguely agreed on #3 beforehand (nothing more futuristic than ~2020-tech). I knew what I needed to call victory (closure of gulags), and I think my enemy knew what he needed (survival). As for an armistice, I was hurting his forces so much that I offered peace once victory was achieved, and he accepted (he'd actually already tried getting me to leave by saying he wouldn't interfere if I tried to withdraw). There were only two battles (but rather large ones...the sea battle was the successful part of the war), and people jumped in and out of the war as they pleased. Maybe it succeeded because we kept arguing about what could happen...nicely enough that no one felt the need to just quit.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113361&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=640

"UE Invades Gabon In War On Terror"

One of the best RPed wars I've ever seen. This war has lasted since early January and is still going on. There are 33 pages full of well-written posts.

This might be one of the last good wars we will see.

:waves quietly as the only less-than-1-month-old nation here:

Hi.

As you can see, I'm what you refer to loosely as a "n00b." In total, I've participated in 4 conflicts, two of which were small scale rps and probably not classified as wars. The first was receiving refugees running from an ethnic cleansing (Designation of incident unknown). No shots fired. In the first conflict, my carrier had an escort composed of 1 Iowa class battleship, who's role was to protect the carrier as it ran retrieval operations. Second, one member of my special ops team fought off zombies in some town, somewhere (Dawn of the Dead). Total shots fired, perhaps 2 clips of 7.62mm MA5B ammunition and 5 shots from a 12.5mm pistol. Third, another ethnic cleansing operation, running interception for the rest of the coalition (Alien Covenant begins Ethnic Cleansing). Shots fired: unknown, as the opponent seemed to disappear shortly after my arrival. Fourth, another small scale rp, as yet uncomplete (Starship Troopers). Shots fired: Somewhere in the area of 2 thousand, .50 calibre cannons, killing an indeterminate number of arachnids. I don't know what you think, but I would not consider this "warmongering." I simply wish to state that all "n00bs" are not after war. In fact, that is one reason I moved to my own planet. I maintain the philosophy of the Star Trek Federation. When ever possible, I stay out of conflicts, and only maintain a defense armed forces, though they are capable of taking on an offensive role. In all the conflicts, I have never been the prime agressor. I'm not going to argue that we aren't all bad, you can even use the term most if you want. All I wish to say is that where most n00bs are after war, there are some of us who simply wish to exist. Thank you.

war rps could be 'fun' as long as they aren't portrayed as 'yeehaw!'-cowboy-six-shooter-nuke fests.

IMO War RPs is just another aspect of roleplaying here in NationStates -- it cannot be overlooked or be declared as somehow it is always a bad thing. War RP can be very fun with little arguments (like one I've been enjoying now (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=92567&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=360) -- it has been going on for months since November but still quite good that there is no ignores and the likes), and if there are some arguments, that can be always solved with some understanding by both sides of course. War RPs, if done correctly, can be as good as most of the "peaceful" character RPs out there. And there are a few instances of such over these months. Heck, if you ask me, a nuke war (perhaps those Cold War scenarios) can be turned to a great RP or major storyline if it's done with percision and quality (that is, if people actually RP the different characters and machineries involved in a slow pace and in a quality post as opposed to one short sentence saying soemthing like "60,000 ICBMs with 200 megaton nuclear warheads are fired at 's capital!")

But war RPs isn't that much easy to do. From my experiecne, there will be always complaints and problems to solve, each day perhaps. This can, however, be aided with a "common understanding" along both sides and some patience. They will get solved.

One thing I also found is that war RPs are at best when you actually RP in small groups with people you are actually [i]comfortable to RP with (just like character RPs), since osmetimes if there's 30 people on each side the storyline can quickly get screwed up and all that stuff.

Another and final thing to note is that a war RP doesn't always have to end in an absolute and direct win or defeat as a result of military action, and nor does it have to be planned beforehand. Twists in the storyline are the fun of war RP, and you could have a tons of neat stuff beside short sentences (which serves few fun and purpose) like "my city is smoked by 's 40,000 hypersonic missiles". Heck, if you want to fire those 1,000 missiles, write your process [i]through in an understandable manner and be ready to face the consequences (i.e. "my fighters will have to return to base to refuel and rearm, and be maintained for a lengthy time after the huge firefight" or "my ships are not able to fire another batch of missiles after this wave of 1,000 missiles"), without acting like an insane rambo who have an infinite amount of 100,000 missiles on their fighters and on their ships and are able to fire all of them within one second. But still, if you are going with huge numbers, keep in mind that not only you will have few left, not all are also going to be fired within 1 minute nor are they cheap (1000 missiles can cost well-over a billion in most cases). A few examples may include sabotage, inflicting a civil war or unrest in the government and the likes.

Overall, my message is: war RP can extend very far from short sentences and phrases announcing what you have done. It can invovle a lareg amount of creative writings. Learn to get the fun out of war RP, don't just play it for your OOC ambitions to win one thousand times or your ambitions to OOCly humiliate someone.

Thing is, most old nations don't have reasons to go to war. Don't get me wrong, some do, and god knows new nations who warmonger have less reason, it's just that when you're a veteran, you look back see how stupid it is to go to war for no reason.

What if your a noob and just like war because you're an evil vampire?

Sincerely
Emporer War General Angelus

I just avoid war RPs as best I can now. I will get involved if its too close to my country for comfort. The main reason I don't get involved as much now is because I really see bombing someone as pointless. The only reason I will fight a war now is if I or one of my close allies is invaded or attacked. I don't really see the need for a large military anymore. I may just revamp everything and form a small, internal security force, similar to the American National Guard. I will just have a small marine force to defend us against invaders. That is really all I need. I am a progressive, peaceful nation. The way I see it, the reason I would need a large active military is for Imperialistic purposes only. Plus, I could still have a reserve force ready should it be needed to fight overseas.

...Heck, if you ask me, a nuke war (perhaps those Cold War scenarios) can be turned to a great RP or major storyline if it's done with percision and quality (that is, if people actually RP the different characters and machineries involved in a slow pace and in a quality post as opposed to one short sentence saying soemthing like "60,000 ICBMs with 200 megaton nuclear warheads are fired at [insert nation]'s capital!"

Indeed, it can. Two nukes managed sneak through Drakonia's defenses and hit his cities, very nearly precipitating a major war between the United Emirates and the FKC.

Nuclear Holocaust in Drakonia (Open RP)
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=93916&highlight=

I also think we hold the longest, drawn out negotiations ever in the history of NS - since it is still not completed.

Nekoa Bay Negotiations (Serious RP; Invite-Only)
http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=94668&highlight=

OOC2:

The reason why I keep bringing this one up, and at the risk of getting a dislocated shoulder from patting myself and everyone in that thread on the back, is because it is one of the few threads in which a nuke was used properly, and to silence those critics who say "Using nukes makes you a bad role player." Two nukes heavily damaged two cities, folks. No "OMG I LAUNCHZ 1234567890 NOOKS!" And Drak took the hit.

Hm, well, I think that I know where SB's coming from, but there are other ways to approach it. There's getting a new, small, country that'll only grow larger, and then there's making unconventional decisions about the way you'll run/play the nation you already have. I mean, Lusaka doesn't have to be played as a 3rd world nation, but it is. The economy's doing relatively well right now, but it's all going on buying more over-priced AIDS drugs, funding any number of military quagmires on the African continent, paying off loans, and panic-buying food and fuels upon realising that we turned all of our tractors into bayonets and our farmers into militiamen, and the crop failed again.
Hey, I know it's a bad idea, but my characters don't have to.

Hey look, the Gabon war (I'm in that! Heh). Can't seem to get out, mind. There may be another partly related conflict brewing, and its got ethnic tensions, religious incitement, post-colonial grudges, abject poverty, and oil! Those are fun, right?

Uh, yeah, so I agree that life here is more fun while it's difficult, and some thought is required to keep your nation from falling apart (or to put it back together, I suppose)... it's just that there are lots of ways to do it. Anyway, maybe you make a new nation, maybe you put it in Southern Africa, and maybe you make it Lusaka's only friend in a sea of fanatics and imperialists :)

I posted these rules because there aren't enough nice people here.

Too many RPers want to win, and don't like your little plot twists. That's all I'm saying.