NationStates Jolt Archive


Anti-Christ Debate! Attention Christian nations of NS

Jeruselem
25-04-2004, 14:41
From another thread, post your opinions who is the nation of the real anti-Christ of our times.

Candidates are
(1) Rome or Papalcy
(2) America or USA
(3) Babylon/Iraq/Persia
(4) European Union (EU)
(5) United Nations

Debate must be civil and give evidence from real books and people.
Time to debate, Christian nations.

Please keep to IC as well.

PS: No overly long bible quotations please! Keep them to the point.
25-04-2004, 14:43
He is a middle aged canadian! :lol:
25-04-2004, 14:45
First off this belongs in General.

Second is that Christianity is a false death cult created by a bunch of poor ass losers in Jerusalem because their best 6ft tall blond hair stoner buddy got nailed to a big stick of wood. Christians worship death and a paradise beyond this world rather than trying to fix this world to make it paradise. There is my two cents.
Diminix
25-04-2004, 14:57
First off this belongs in General.

Second is that Christianity is a false death cult created by a bunch of poor ass losers in Jerusalem because their best 6ft tall blond hair stoner buddy got nailed to a big stick of wood. Christians worship death and a paradise beyond this world rather than trying to fix this world to make it paradise. There is my two cents.


I think it's an IC debate.
Jeruselem
25-04-2004, 15:00
First off this belongs in General.

Second is that Christianity is a false death cult created by a bunch of poor ass losers in Jerusalem because their best 6ft tall blond hair stoner buddy got nailed to a big stick of wood. Christians worship death and a paradise beyond this world rather than trying to fix this world to make it paradise. There is my two cents.


I think it's an IC debate.

That's the intention. Debate is meant for Christian nations in theological debate ... not a Athiest vs Christian flamefest of General.
25-04-2004, 15:03
Oh... Sorry then I guess disregard my post.
Diminix
25-04-2004, 15:03
First off this belongs in General.

Second is that Christianity is a false death cult created by a bunch of poor ass losers in Jerusalem because their best 6ft tall blond hair stoner buddy got nailed to a big stick of wood. Christians worship death and a paradise beyond this world rather than trying to fix this world to make it paradise. There is my two cents.


I think it's an IC debate.

That's the intention. Debate is meant for Christian nations in theological debate ... not a Athiest vs Christian flamefest of General.

Yeah people over there in General are crazy. :lol:
Yallak
25-04-2004, 15:05
sorry to be OOC: There is no such thing as an anti-crist. Their are just many many anticrists. i am one of them. As for countries, there so called anti christianity is good, but a result of political partys opinions
Jeruselem
25-04-2004, 15:08
sorry to be OOC: There is no such thing as an anti-crist. Their are just many many anticrists. i am one of them. As for countries, there so called anti christianity is good, but a result of political partys opinions

OOC

I'm refering to the Anti-Christ of the coming Armageddon.
Satan, anti-Christ and the false Prophet folks.
That's why I targetted Christian nations and New Testament followers.
Derscon
25-04-2004, 19:06
Tag. Will post later.
Goobergunchia
25-04-2004, 19:07
First off this belongs in General.

Second is that Christianity is a false death cult created by a bunch of poor ass losers in Jerusalem because their best 6ft tall blond hair stoner buddy got nailed to a big stick of wood. Christians worship death and a paradise beyond this world rather than trying to fix this world to make it paradise. There is my two cents.


I think it's an IC debate.

How can you ICly debate something IRL?

This has been an OOC post.
Thelas
25-04-2004, 19:09
*TAG* proposing Iesus Christi for the anti-christ
25-04-2004, 19:19
.::TAG::.
Diminix
25-04-2004, 19:36
First off this belongs in General.

Second is that Christianity is a false death cult created by a bunch of poor ass losers in Jerusalem because their best 6ft tall blond hair stoner buddy got nailed to a big stick of wood. Christians worship death and a paradise beyond this world rather than trying to fix this world to make it paradise. There is my two cents.


I think it's an IC debate.

How can you ICly debate something IRL?

This has been an OOC post.

Uh there is RL things happening IC'ly lol
It's not like they dont exist..
Tanah Burung
25-04-2004, 21:23
In-character, neither the USA, Iraq nor European Union exist for me, so can't debate it IC.
Yugolsavia
25-04-2004, 22:52
I believe there is a god because how were we created if there was not and don't give me that big bang theory because I don't believe it. It's not like a commet hit the world and out of nowere life magicly appered. It's impossible. I also believe Jesus was the son of god because no human being could stand to be wiped, beaten, having a crown of thorns placed on your head and still carry a heavy cross and live while being tutred after all that and resurecte 3 days after.
Vegana
25-04-2004, 22:56
Brothers´... Sisters.... GOD IS TRULY GREAT! Hallowed be his name that allows us to unite in discussions about the Anti-Christ. The fine nation of Jerusalem has provided suggestions for us in this little mindgame, but I fear that they thought too narrow and didn't see the True Anti-Christ, the Nephilim.

The Nephilim spreads like a cancer over the world demanding rights and deeds all over. The nephilim kills thousands of innocent humans for the lives of but a few of their "own" kind. The nephilim is immortal and can never grow sick or old. For a long time the Christian church was a strong bastion that defended what was righteous and good against the influence of the Nephilim. But now they even has started to spread their filth and drop their poison in the ears of pious men. They tempt and they lure like the sirens of ancient mythology and tries to convert people by spreading lies of friendship and culture. What good did that do to the people of Raem when Elves killed millions of them and enslaved hundreds of millions? OR when the Harlot queen, bombed the poor nation of Zhikav, killing tens of thousands to punish one human for the lives of a few elves.

We see the deceiver work in proud nations such as great Lavenrunz, and now even in the papacy. Can anyone doubt the true face of our enemy`? The face that IS Nephilim? The soulless, pointy eared abominations whos only goal is to live their eternal lives with human slaves for their private pleasure to do with what they will? Know the face of evil, know that there is no friendship in their old cold hearts. Only greed and pride.
Tarlachia
25-04-2004, 23:09
[...] no human being could stand to be wiped, beaten, having a crown of thorns placed on your head and still carry a heavy cross and live while being tutred after all that and resurecte 3 days after.

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate off what you said... although what you say is what I believe, I just want to throw this out for your intellectual digestion. You say no one can survive the sort of things that Jesus suffered. I ask you this: What about those that suffered in the Holocaust? Surely those that managed to survive the starvation, beatings, harsh labor, and more can be seen as remarkable. It could perhaps be seen as equivocal to the things that Jesus suffered. Do you agree or disagree?

My case in point: Humans are definitely capable of surviving many harsh treatments. It is not just one man alone that can do that. However, the only difference in the two comparisions is the fact that Jesus was ressurected. I'm saying, ignore that for the sake of this discussion in the way that I have proposed it to you.

Just a thought! :)
Versa corp
25-04-2004, 23:33
[...] no human being could stand to be wiped, beaten, having a crown of thorns placed on your head and still carry a heavy cross and live while being tutred after all that and resurecte 3 days after.

I'm gonna play the devil's advocate off what you said... although what you say is what I believe, I just want to throw this out for your intellectual digestion. You say no one can survive the sort of things that Jesus suffered. I ask you this: What about those that suffered in the Holocaust? Surely those that managed to survive the starvation, beatings, harsh labor, and more can be seen as remarkable. It could perhaps be seen as equivocal to the things that Jesus suffered. Do you agree or disagree?

My case in point: Humans are definitely capable of surviving many harsh treatments. It is not just one man alone that can do that. However, the only difference in the two comparisions is the fact that Jesus was ressurected. I'm saying, ignore that for the sake of this discussion in the way that I have proposed it to you.

Just a thought! :)

Well I respect what you think and I will calmly debate since you are being logical and presenting a clear argument. Yes there was mass suffering in the Holocost and it was a needless event in history which was ran by a bunch of religous zelot assholes but in the bible there was stufff they did to Jesus that no man could have surrvieved. He wasw dragged for miles carrying a heavy cross and even though he had help it was still pretty hard. Even while he was carrying it Roman soilders and ignorant villagers being brainwashed by the rich beat him in his travel. Also they did not give him water and fed him vinegar but he did not die. They he to stab him for him to die with a Javilen. Also Crist in my opinon was our savior because there is even records of him curing people that at the time there was no hope for them. That is just my belif.
Syskeyia
26-04-2004, 04:11
In-character, neither the USA, Iraq nor European Union exist for me, so can't debate it IC.

In-character, the USA does exist for me (except for NY and NJ, who, of course, from the Federal Republic/Monarchy of NYNJ in 2004). EU? No. Iraq. That's up in the air.

Personally, if this is an IC NS debate, shouldn't the candidates include Melkor, Siri, Matty et cetera?

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia
Reichskamphen
26-04-2004, 04:12
OOC: Sorry, had less time than thought tonight, but will find time tommorrow likely tonight I will just refute it being America cause that is the easiest and quickest to do and I can do it from memory instead of looking up the verse.

IC: It cannot be America because Mystery, Babylon the Great is a City. It was represented in the vision by the symbol of a woman, but the symbol was translated, making the translation literal. The City is not a symbol for something else it is actually a city.

Also, the Anti-Christ is going to come from within the Church. "He sitteth in the Temple of God exalting himself as God." America is not a religious power. Also, they said that the city, Mystery Babylon, was that city which now, meaning in John's day, reigneth over the Kings of the Earth. The only city that could be is Rome. There is more than just one 7 hills reference that says it is Rome also. Scarlet is associated with that (Cardinal Robes) White (Pope's robes) (Purple) is a colour of Royalty and appears frequently as a liturgical colour within the Roman Church. They don't have to be on the Vatican's flag. The Whore of Babylon is the Vatican, but also it is the Church itself which stretches its tendrils accross the world as we speaks and still reigneth in some senses over the Kings of the earth.

Next Time, I shall refute what is said against this, and then establish that the Anti-Christ is the office of the Papacy, not a single Pope, but the office itself. Until next time....
Vegana
26-04-2004, 05:29
In-character, neither the USA, Iraq nor European Union exist for me, so can't debate it IC.

In-character, the USA does exist for me (except for NY and NJ, who, of course, from the Federal Republic/Monarchy of NYNJ in 2004). EU? No. Iraq. That's up in the air.

Personally, if this is an IC NS debate, shouldn't the candidates include Melkor, Siri, Matty et cetera?

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

OOC: Completely agrees with Syskeyia. Otherwise, Move to general. Try keeping it IC please
Derscon
28-04-2004, 03:38
(((OOC: Disclaimer: The following post does not reflect the authors personal views (as in I'm a Christian and not a santanist), thank you)))
======================

Illuminati Headquarters, Vatican City

"Finally. They mingle over all of this, yet they over look the obvious."

"I know. They are narrow-minded and stupid. So, is it almost complete?"

"Yes, it is, sir. Once it is carried out, our man will be in position."

"Excellent. It is time. I assume our brothers acros the world are also preparing for the New Age?"

"Absolutely. The 33rd council is prepared. All of our AIP's are ready, too."

"Wonderful. Heil to the Novus Ordo Seclorum"

"Da."
Reichskamphen
28-04-2004, 03:48
I found an amazing article that I believe is very applicable to the situation. I shall post it here.

"Is not the Church of Rome the Babylon of the Book of Revelation?"
Christopher Wordsworth, D.D.
Whether Babylon in the Apocalypse is the city of Rome.


The subject of our Inquiry is:--

Whether the Prophecies in the Apocalypse (Ch.xiii, xiv, xvi, xvii, xciii, xix), or Revelation of St. John, respecting Babylon, concern Rome as she now is?

This Question divides itself into two parts;

First; Do these prophecies concern the City in which the Bishop of Rome holds his See?

Secondly; Do these prophecies concern that City in her spiritual as well as her temporal character; that is, do they concern her as a Church, as well as a City? And as exercising power, not merely at Rome and in Italy, but in many other countries, and over many other nations, of the world?

Let us begin with the consideration of the former of these two questions, Do these prophecies concern the City of Rome?

1. First, these Apocalyptic prophecies, which describe the Woman who is called Babylon, and is seated on the Beast with seven heads and ten horns, do not concern the older, literal, Assyrian, Babylon. The inscription on the Woman’s forehead is Mystery; indicating a spiritual meaning. This word had been used by St. John’s brother Apostle St. Paul, in his description of the Mystery of iniquity, opposed to the Mystery of Godliness (2 Thess.ii.7, and 1 Tim.iii.16); and St. John adopts the word from St. Paul, and appears to apply it to the same object as that which had been portrayed by that Apostle (2 Thess.ii.7)

Again, the Babylon of the Apocalypse is described as a City existing and reigning in St. John’s age (Rev.xvii.18); but the literal, or Assyrian, Babylon had long ceased to be a reigning city when St. John wrote. Therefore the Babylon of the Apocalypse cannot be the literal or Assyrian Babylon.

2. What, then, is the City of which St. John speaks?

It is called by him a Great city (Rev.xvii.18), and it is one which existed in his age; and would continue to exist for many centuries, certainly to our own times; as is evident from the fact, that its destruction, as described in the Apocalypse, is represented there as accompanied by events, which, however near they may now be, no one can say have yet taken place

The Babylon of the Apocalypse is, therefore, some Great City which existed in St. John’s age, and which still exists in our own.

Now almost all the Great Cities of his age have fallen into decay; almost the only great City which then existed, and still exists, is Rome.

3. Thirdly, we read in the Apocalypse: Here is the mind, or meaning, which hath wisdom (Rev.xvii.9); the Seven heads of the Beast are Seven Mountains, on which the Woman sitteth.

In St. John’s age there was One City, a Great City, built on Seven Hills,--Rome. The name of each of its Seven Hills is well known: in St. John’s time Rome was usually called "the Seven-hilled City." She was celebrated as such in an annual national Festival. And there is scarcely a Roman Poet of any note who has not spoken of Rome as a City seated on Seven Mountains. Virgil, Horace, Tibullus, Propertius, Ovid, Silius Italicus, Statius, Martial, Claudian, Prudentius—in short, the unanimous Voice of Roman Poetry during more than five hundred years, beginning with the age of St. John, proclaimed Rome as "the Seven-hilled City."


Nor is this all. The Apocalypse is illustrated, in this respect, from another source, equally obvious to the world—Coins.

On the Imperial Medals of that age, which are still preserved, we see Rome displayed as a Woman sitting on Seven Hills, as she is represented in the Apocalypse.

Fourthly, St. John give another criterion by which the Apocalyptic City is to be identified. The Woman which thou sawest (he says) is that Great City, which Reigneth over the Kings of the Earth (Rev.xvii.18).
If we refer to the Latin Poets of St. John’s age, we find that the Epithets commonly applied to Rome are The great, The mighty, The royal, Rome; The Queen of Nations; The Eternal City; The Mistress of the World.

If again, we contemplate the public feelings of the World as expressed on the coins of that period, we there see Rome, as the great City, deified, crowned with a mural diadem, holding in her palm a winged figure of Victory, which bears in its hand a Globe, the symbol of Rome’s Conquests and Universal Sway.

Rome, then, was that Great City; Rome reigned over the Kings of the Earth. Therefore the Woman is Rome.

5. Yet further, St. John gives us another characteristic. The Woman, described by him as sitting on Seven Hills, and as reigning over the Kings of the Earth, is called Babylon. Upon her forehead was a name written—Mystery, Babylon the Great (Rev.xvii.5). This name, as we have seen, is not to be taken literally; it cannot designate the Assyrian City on the Euphrates; but it designates some other great city which was like Babylon, and is therefore called by that name.


To apply this geographically; Babylon has found a remarkable parallel in Rome. Babylon (as S. Augustine says) was the Eastern Rome: and Rome, the Western Babylon.

Babylon was situated in a vast plain: and everyone has heard of the Campagna of Rome. Both cities are intersected by rivers. The soil of Babylon is described in Scripture as productive of clay for brick, and slime, or bitumen, for mortar (Gen.xi.3). Witness the Inspired History of the building of Babel in that region. And the enormous brick Walls of Babylon have passed into a proverb.

Turn now to Rome. We there recognize a resemblance in these respects, in the long arched aqueducts of brick which still stretch across the Roman Campagna, and connect the City with the distant hills; and in the roads, paved with bituminous blocks, which joined the capital to the coast.

Again: the city of Babylon was surrounded with pools, which, when it was destroyed, stagnated into swampy morasses, and now greatly increase the dreariness and unhealthiness of its desolate plain.

Let us now direct our eyes to the Campagna of Rome, formerly peopled with cities, and alive with the stir of men. From the inundations of the Pomptine marshes, and from the inveterate malaria of many centuries, and from the fetid miasma brooding over its sulphurous springs and brooks, it is now scarcely habitable; and by its wild and lonely aspect presents a sad prognostic of its future destiny; and seems to sound a solemn alarm and warning into the ear of Faith, that the likeness will one day be stronger between Babylon and Rome.

Here are some striking similitude’s; and we must not neglect the historical parallel between Babylon and Rome. Babylon had been and was the Queen of the East, in the age of the Hebrew Prophets; and Rome was the Mistress of the West, when St. John wrote. Babylon was called the Golden City, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees’ excellency (Isa.xiii19; xiv.4). She claimed Eternity and Universal Supremacy. She said in her heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God (Isa.xiv.13). I shall be a Lady for ever. I am, and none else beside me; I shall not sit as a Widow, neither shall I know the loss of children (Isa.xlvii.7,8). In these respects also, Babylon was imitated by Rome. She also called herself the Golden City, the Eternal City.

Again; the King of Babylon was the rod of God’s anger, and the staff of His indignation (Isa.x.5) against Jerusalem for its rebellion against Him. Babylon was employed by God to punish the sins of Sion, and to lay her walls in the dust. So, in St. John’s own age, the Imperial legions of Rome had been sent by God to chastise the guilty City which had crucified His beloved Son.

Again: the Sacred Vessels of God’s Temple at Jerusalem were carried from Sion to Babylon, and were displayed in triumph on the table at the royal banquet in that fatal night, when the fingers of a man’s hand came forth from the Wall(Dan.v.5,6) and terrified the King.

So, the Sacred Vessels of the Jewish Temple, which were restored by Cyrus, and the book of the Law, and the Golden Candlestick, and the Table of Shew bread, were carried captive in triumphal procession to the Roman Capitol: and even now their effigies may be seen at Rome, carved in sculpture on one of the sides of the triumphal Arch of Titus, the Imperial Conqueror of Jerusalem.

And what now, it may be asked, was the language of St. John’s own age on this subject? Did it, or did it not, recognize Rome in Babylon?

To speak, first, of the Jews. So strong was their sense of the analogy between these two Cities, that the name which they commonly gave to Rome was Babylon. They felt that in their own history God had identified the two. And, it may be added, as remarkable, that , as the Restoration of the Jews by Cyrus did not take place till Babylon was taken, and then ensued immediately, so it is, and has long been, a deeply-rooted opinion and a common proverb among the Jews, that "the Redemption of Israel will not be accomplished, before Rome is destroyed."

Next, how ere these Chapters of the Apocalypse, concerning Babylon, understood by Christian writers succeeding St. John? Before this question is answered, one remark may be made. When St. John wrote, Rome was Queen of the World, and whenever she looked on Christianity, it was with an evil eye.

St. John himself was a martyr in will for the faith; he wrote the Apocalypse in banishment in Patmos, to which he was sent as a prisoner, for the testimony of Jesus Christ (Rev.i.9). He could not speak clearly concerning Rome without exasperating her. The same observation applies to the earliest Interpreters of the Apocalypse. To identify Rome with Babylon would probably have been represented as treason against her. And we know that the followers of Christ were commonly regarded by Roman writers as ill affected to her, and even as the cause of her calamities.

Now, mark the reply which was made to such allegations, as these by the ancient advocates of Christianity. They did not deny that Rome was aimed at in their inspired prophecies; but they averred that it was their bounden duty and interest to wish well to the existing Empire of Rome; because to use St. Paul’s language to the Thessalonians (2 Thess.ii.6,7), the Imperial Government letted,--that is, hindered, prevented, or postponed,--the rise of another Power in its place, to which they could not wish well, inasmuch as it would be more injurious to the Gospel, than the heathen Empire of Rome.

We find that among the early Christians some were so much impressed with this identity, that they even supposed, that the Babylon from which St. Peter dates his first Epistle, was Rome. This supposition was doubtless caused by the common belief among Christians in the typical relation of Babylon to Rome, and proves how strong that belief was.

A very ancient witness on this subject is Irenaeus. He was one of the disciples of Polycarp, the scholar of St. John, and one of the most learned among the writers of the Eastern Church of that age; and he lived and died in the West, at Lyons in Gaul, of which he was Bishop. Referring to the Apocalypse, he says that the world must wait till the Roman Empire is divided into several kingdoms, signified by the ten Horns of the Beast; and that , when these kingdoms are increasing in might, then a great Power will arise, which will overawe these kingdoms, and will be the Abomination of Desolation, and will be characterized by the number of the Name of the Beast predicted by St. John. And, proceeding to speak of this number, he adds, it is wiser to wait patiently till the Prophecy if fulfilled, than to pronounce confidently upon it; but that, in his own opinion, the word Lateinos Latinus, which contains the requisite number, expresses that power. And why, it may be asked, does he fix upon this word? "Because the Latins (he says, or Romans) are they who now reign"; alluding manifestly to the words of St. John, The Woman which thou sawest is that great City, which reigneth over the Kings of the Earth.

It is therefore clear, that S. Irenaeus interpreted the prophecies of St. John, concerning the Woman on the Seven Hills, the Woman which reigneth, the Woman which is Babylon, the Mother of fornication’s of no other City than Rome; and, we might add, he did not confine them to Rome as Pagan, for he says that the lawless Power, which is represented by that name, was not yet come.

One of the most learned of the Christian Fathers of the Latin Church of that age was Tertullian. He affirms that the Christians of hie day pray for the duration of the Roman Empire. And why? Because its fall would be succeeded by the rise of another more terrible power. And in two places of his works he uses these words:--"Names are employed by us as signs. Thus Samaria is a sign of Idolatry, Egypt is a symbol of Malediction, and in like manner, in the writings of our own St. John, Babylon is a figure of the Roman City, mighty, proud of its sway, and fiercely persecuting the Saints."

If also we refer to those ancient writers who composed Commentaries on the apocalypse, we find the same interpretation meeting us from various quarters, and from the earliest times, and continued in an uninterrupted series down to our own day.

The earliest extant Commentary on the Apocalypse is by a Bishop and Martyr of Pannonia, Victorinus, in the third century. He says, "the city of Babylon, that is, Rome; the City on seven hills, that is, Rome; and the Kings of the Earth will hate the Harlot, that is, Rome."

Not to mention more authorities, the same language is echoed from the East in the commentaries of two Bishops of Cappadocia, Andreas and Arethas; the former of whom expounded the Apocalypse in the sixth century; and from Italy and Rome itself by Cassiodorus, first a Senator of that city, and then an Ecclesiastic; and from Africa by Primasius, a Bioshop of Adrumetum, in the sixth century.


6. To sum up the evidence on this portion of the inquiry; We have in our hands a Book, dictated by the Holy spirit to St. John, the beloved Disciple, the blessed Evangelist, the last surviving Apostle—a Book predicting events from the day in which it was written even to the end of time; a Book designed for the perpetual warning of the church, and commended to her pious meditation in solemn and affectionate terms. In it we behold a description, traced by the divine finger, of a proud and prosperous Power, claiming universal homage, and exercising mighty dominion: A Power enthroned upon many waters, which are Peoples, and Multitudes, and Nations, and Tongues (Rev.xvii. 1, 15): a Power arrogating Eternity by calling herself a Queen for ever; a Power, whose prime agent, by his Lamb-like aspect (Rev.xiii. 11), bears a semblance of Christian purity, and yet, from his sounding words and cruel deeds, is compared to a Dragon: a power beguiling men from the pure faith, and trafficking in human souls (Rev. xvii.13), tempting them to commit spiritual adultery, alluring them to herself by gaudy colours and glittering jewels, and holding in her hand a golden cup of enchantments, by which she intoxicates the world, and makes it reel at her feet.

This power, so described in the Apocalypse, is identified in this Divinely inspired Book with

a Great City; and that City is described as
seated on seven hills. It is also characterized as
that Great City, which reigned over the Kings of the Earth in the time of St. John. And
it is called Babylon
Having contemplated these characteristics of this prophetic description, we pause, and consider,--what City in the world corresponds to it?


It cannot be the literal Babylon, for she was not built on seven hills, nor was she the Queen of the earth in St. John’s age. It is some Great City which then existed, and would continue to exist to our age. Among the very few Great Cities which then were, and still survive, One was seated on Seven Hills. She was universally recognized in St. John’s age as the Seven hilled City. She is described as such by the general voice of her own most celebrated writers for five centuries; and she has ever since continued to be so characterized. She is represented as such on her own Coinage, the Coinage of the World. This same City, and no other, then reigned over the Kings of the Earth. She exercised Universal Sovereignty, and boasted herself Eternal. This same City resembled Babylon in many striking respects; --in dominion, in wealth, in physical position, and in historical acts, especially with regard to the Ancient Church and People of God. This same City was commonly called Babylon by St. John’s own countrymen, and by his disciples. And, finally, the voice of the Christian Church, in the age of St. John himself, and for many centuries after it, has given an almost unanimous verdict on this subject;--that the Seven-hilled City, that Great City, the Queen of the Earth, Babylon the Great of the Apocalypse, is the city of ROME.
Derscon
29-04-2004, 01:38
<<<<can't get the chart, sorry. Will post it later>>>>
==================

Historically protestants identified the Whore riding the beast as the Catholic church and the beast was identified as the government of the Papal power. "church + state"



Three phases of the beast!



1. Beast "was" 2. Beast "is not" 3. Beast "yet is"



1st phase ("was") church during the dark ages

Revelation 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. (Dark ages)

Revelation 17:8 "And the beast thou sawest "Was" ( Dark ages)

1798 Napoleon captures Pius VI, and decrees the Papal government dead! John Paul II apologizes for the atrocities of the past. 1798 ends the 1st phase. (Political control of church ends 1798)

---------- ------------- -----------

2nd phase ("is not") 7 kings after 1798.



Revelation 17:8 Beast "is not" and ascending

Revelation 17:9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are 7 mountains, on which the woman sitteth and are 7 kings. John sees the vision from the prospective of the 6th king "one is" (Paul) the 6th Papal name since 1798. He will go down in history as starting the ecumenical movement to reunite protestants back to Rome.


This second phase is where the count starts at 1798. Since Napoleon captured and killed Pius, he declared the Papacy dead, and henceforth had no more power. This also has reference to the mortal wound a head of the beast received. Since from 1798-on is when the Papacy had no real ruling power, this was the period of "is not."
------------------------- ---------------------- --------------------
The Third Phase -- "yet to come." This is the antichrist. This is the eighth head of the Beast. As there were seven names since 1798, there are seven heads on the Beast in Revelation. John Paul II is dieing; his time is short in the Papacy. The new pope who takes on his own name will bring this count to 666, as seen by the chart.

Praise be to God for His Word.

Praise be to Him for his Revelation.
--------------------------------------
http://www.666man.net/666ReligionHistoryOverview.html
Reichskamphen
29-04-2004, 03:39
But, Rome is still drunk with the blood of the Martyrs. She slew the Martyrs of Jesus during the Reformation and the Inquisition to stamp it out. She slew them up until very recently. The Office of the Inquisition is still in operation as well, under a differant name.

I think you make a good point otherwise though. But the chart is not necessary anyways.
Kihameria
29-04-2004, 04:00
wow, a Relegious thread that doesnt have that much "God doesnt exist" stuff, anyway, i will throw in a couple points...

to whoever mentioned toe holocaust attrocities and Jesus about suffering...the victims of the holocause lived in a later time, with some better basic knowladge of medicine,they were not nailed to crosses, they were fed (but not much) they could sleep, and many other things, whereas Jesus ate the 'Last supper' with his desciples and then in time was betrayed by judas and He went through the trials and when convicted (after some deleberation until they found a way to convict Him) and He was then beaten with a whip liek the cat o' nine tails, and then forced to carry His own cross to the spot of His cruixifiction, (i think a roman was orderd to help Him with his cross after He had dragged it some way) He was offerd some type of drink (vinegar or wine) to dull the pain,which He refused, and then the crown of thorns was put on His head and He was nailed to the cross, so a few horus i imaging without drinking anything i figure it would be hard to last as long as Jesus did, espically since after a short time in the Cruixifiction position it would become hard to breath, and you would have to push youreself up on youre feet (Which were impaled with a nail) and/or pull youreself up on youre arms (which, near the hands,were also impaled with a nail.) so the Holocaust victims had it bad, but Jesus went through much more in a shorter time.

and i do not know when the beast/ antichrist will come, but i must hope it is not in my lifetime, just look and read in revelation to see some signs of the end times.
i would probably post more, but its getting late here.