NationStates Jolt Archive

OOC:
Hi!

Inspired by a recent economic report and with a bit of time on my hands, I used the great Thirdgeek economic calculator (http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?) to write a comparative economic study of a couple of important NS nations. It contains nice graphs and a chart about these nations and how they compare economically.

Sunset was willing to host it here: (Thank you again, Sunset)

http://www.pacifier.com/~cziller/nseconomystudy.html

What is in the study?
I’ve used the calculator to compare a number of macroeconomic indicators of nations. The calculator gives you the Gross Domestic Product (GDP) of a nation, the GDP per capita, and trade surpluses/deficits. I’ve also used the available date to calculate private consumption per capita.

Politically interesting, I compare Menelmacar and Melkor to each other: something that ought to be important in that perpetual cold war of them.
The study also draws some general conclusions and makes recommendations about how you can get up your GDP. Please do bear in mind that it is a Knootian report and as such the conclusions may have a slight liberal bias. ;)

Which nations have been surveyed?
The nations surveyed are:
-SeOCC
-Melkor Unchained
-Menelmacar
-Knootoss (me)
-Sunset

I have spoken to everyone surveyed after I made the report (and they were more or less agreed with it with) apart from SeOCC because our communications channels are, errr… a bit rough.

Disclaimers and stuff – before you flame
I am not trying to push this calculator though everyone’s throat.
I happen to think it is a great way of comparing nations, and it is much better then anything else available to NS. I also think that the economics are calculated realistically and provide a good insight. I’m certainly going to use it and I am hoping for further improvements to it. However, in (freeform) RP calculators can never be the final word so if you OMG HATEZ0RZ THE CaLcUlAToRZ!!! Then I understand and I won’t hold it against you. :P However I think it is a useful tool to actually help measure the actual size of an economy using a bit more then ‘frightening’ as an indicator.

As the disclaimer in the document itself also said: this document has been produced without consulting with the surveyed nations. Everyone has stories about why their nation is different and why certain parts of the factbook (and hence, the results of the calculator) don’t apply to their nation. SeOCC does population capping, I RP a MUCH more open economy then these figures show, there are aid funds and tributes to both Menelmacar and Melkor. (Also to Knootoss, btw) Siri has an automated Elvish economy, etc etc. Making no exceptions while drawing up this report was the only way for me to make it a fair comparison. Everyone also came out with its own distinct strengths and weaknesses.

Siri liked it too, but asked me to mention that she will still RP Menelmacar as having a trade surplus, I quote, "due to the unique high-quality nature of elven goods (and thus a higher demand abroad for them).”

EDITED in: I should also note that SeOCC does not recognise this study at all on "account of you blatantly misrepresent my ecnonomy and material conditions within.". I think removing it will pose difficulties but here, a disclaimer as promised: they are just capitalist lies and propaganda by the Knootian bureau for statistics. :roll:

Want to see the study and missed the link above? Have fun reading it and please tell me what you think!
Click here! (http://www.pacifier.com/~cziller/nseconomystudy.html)

Thirdgeek economic calculator (http://ww.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php)
That would be mine, just in case you needed someone to blame for its lousiness :P

Thirdgeek economic calculator (http://ww.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php)
That would be mine, just in case you needed someone to blame for its lousiness :P

Oh, drat, I wanted to mention you in this first post. Well, you are thanked in the actual survey. Great work on that calc! Really great!

To bed in a minute BUMB - I know, it only just reached page 2 but it is for a good purpose. Thanks for all the compliments on IRC and MSN that have been given so far! *blushes*

thats nice

Very nice!

Sunset got included and I didn't? Perhaps you are forgetting who won in our Cola war. :wink:

Thank you.
And Resi - it was settled if I recall. ;) At any rate, there were so many nations that I could have included, I just had to choose. It doesn't have anything to do with favouritism. But you can always make your own econonomic studies. If you have excell its quite easy&fun to do. ;)

EDIT: Oh, yes, I added a disclaimer for SeOCC in the first post. Its all capitalist lies!

OOC: Though a wild and unproven theory, I believe that Sunset bribed Knootoss for inclusion in the study by providing web space.

OOC: heh - Nothing could be further from the truth. I can assure you that the offer of providing webspace was made after we made them look good in that report. Oh, wait, did I just say that out loud? ;)

OOC: Well, it could have been payment on reciept of service as a capitalist would say....

OOC: Are you implying that Sunset and Knootoss are capitalist?! How... well, true. But seriously, I never changed ratings for him or anything. ;)

Looks good, nice work.

Are you going to do anymore?

OOC: Actually seems like a real economic report. Anyway I could get you to do one of Feline, I'll give you all the information you would need to do something like that.

Or maybe you should open up something like an store IC, where a group of Knootian economists write reports for nations in exchange for money IC.

[OOC: while i usually avoud responding to Ks posts, here goes to bust a few of his evil lies:
"this gap is also observable among other nations": actually, SeOCC deliberately keeps his economy down at powerhouse level; i don't know about Melkor, but i doubt your so-called 'gap' in PCGDP is observed globally; if it is it's no doubt a transitory effect due to to recent nationalization of an economy which has not yet found it's pace or the incompetence of a particular leader, as the major anticapitalist economic powers 0WNZ0R J00; Celdonia is head and shoulders above the WBO in UN economy rankings, for instance. As for me, i won't even come into it as, unlike you, i do not relly on extremely irrealistic economic calculators which give you a fixed value for PCGDP but rather evolve it according to a rather complex formula and not a few highly subjective adjustement sof my own base don how i expect it to react to RP. Of course, since i actually take growth into account, i've long since outstripped just about anyone who uses a static value, unless its '89747128725$ W00t!11!1'.

'deregulation works': talk to Thatcher; you both have the knack of ignoring reality.

'SeOCC has a huge trade deficit':True, Except for one thing: you stated you were surveying the ACEPB (Xikuang excluded, apparently, though you did not says so) instead of S for reasons of population, and the economies OOC-controlled by the SeOCC-player (Metro SeOCC, Heliotis, Terronos, etc...) as the ACEPB (Xikuang excluded, as S-player dosn't run it) having struck a balance globally, AFAIK. Intra-ACEPB trade, however, would probably show a deficit for Metro SeOCC, although their manufactured goods might make up their importations.

Conclusions and Policy Recommendations: your trumpeting your own salute and gloryfying Menelmacar in the process. Stop wasting webspace with this trash.]

[OOC: http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?region=Orion_Sector is informative, but way off. I think this calculator is geared more towards modern-tech nations...because future and far future nations like myself have different variables that determine wealth of a nation and what not. Multiply my nation's GDP by five or so, and that's how it is in reality.

Still, I'm more of a writer than a statistician, so my storylines determine my stats/tech/etc. instead of the other way around in my RP's.]

[OOC: http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?region=Orion_Sector is informative, but way off. I think this calculator is geared more towards modern-tech nations...because future and far future nations like myself have different variables that determine wealth of a nation and what not. Multiply my nation's GDP by five or so, and that's how it is in reality.

Still, I'm more of a writer than a statistician, so my storylines determine my stats/tech/etc. instead of the other way around in my RP's.]

Imperial Forces and Feline: I certainly might do more, depending on how much time I have etc. I have made some statistics for another nation already. Feline, I like your suggestion. However I think a store where everyone could come would be just a bit too time-consuming. I maintained a storefront for a while (*hides in shame*) and I don’t wanna be responsible for keeping people waiting for weeks until I can do it etc. because then it would be some kind of ‘service.’ However, if people like it then I’m certainly willing to make a few more. Maybe compare some regions to each other. Like, I dunno, Haven vs. Arda. The power of Yut. ;) If people agree about it, though. I want to do Feline, but I’d like to know what kind of thing you have in mind.

Steel Butterfly: yes, I would actually tend to agree that space nations would need GDP’s that are vastly higher then the ones given in order to maintain all the huge space fleets. This calculator is modern-tech oriented And of course, for writers it isn’t as important. I am mainly a writer too, but also interested in this kind of borderline thing. One could, of course, RP with the given GDP’s so all nations could make only very small spacefleets. That would force space nations to work together for increased power. The United Federation of Planets from ST for example is also MANY nations/planets working together in order to maintain a decent fleet. But that is just a suggestion that I don’t expect anyone to follow. ;)

Cirdanistan: you have a telegram.

OOC: I could telegram you with all sorts of information on factors affecting the Feline economy.

well ...

apparantly K doesn't feel like being polite about this, so i'll have to take this to the forums and, unfortunately, legitimize this incredibly skewed and unrealistic 'report.'

first, GDP calculators are crap. no offense to the people that make them, i generally respect attempts to add some objective values to this very chaotic FFRP, but i haven't seen a GDP calculator made by someone that really understands GDP. for the record, GDP only measures total economic activity, all the money spent. if you break you leg and pay the doctor, GDP goes up. if you have to buy ten thousand dollars worth of drugs for a terminal illness, GDP goes up. GDP does not go down when people starve or are booted into the street for being unable to afford housing. GDP only measures money spent.

so when measuring, say, how much an economy is producing gross, GDP is good. for understanding what is going on in that economy, GDP doesn't tell you anything. hey, Beirut is a mess, but Lebanon's GDP is soaking in all the construction investment flooding into rebuilding projects. the war was a good thing!

SeOCC's economy has been kept between thriving and all-consuming, most often at powerhouse, for almost a year now, because i RP that having anything higher than powerhouse is BAD. listen to the terms: all consuming (if you have an all consuming passion, what does that say about the other things in your life) and frightening (and i don't think its talking about the reaction other countries have when looking at your balance sheet). SeOCC's economy, by remaining at powerhouse, can be very realistically RPed as having stable, moderate and reasonable economic policies, with minimal shortfall and resources squandared on plastic disposable happy meal toys.

so, while SeOCC's GDP is no doubt lower, SeOCC does not make disposable Swiffer Wipes, does not have people who replace appliances every two years because they're built to break, does not make pointless new versions of softwar, and most importantly, does not require people to work to live. all of which makes a better society, economically, while still having a lower GDP. re: GDP per capita, it's ballocks, even in RL. GDP per capita is when you divide the GDP by population, big deal. what's the standard of living in that country? do you know? someone making, for instance, 35k in the Philippines will live substanitally better than someone making 35k in the USA. so, again, a statistic that doesn't actually illuminate anything about an economy.

re: trade deficit, Cirdanistan is extremely on the mark, and if the trade deficit was created by the calculator it shows a fundamental disconnect between it and RP. K's comments re: SeOCC's population are correct, but he seems to forget that when he drew up the trade deficit stats. if he's measuring trade in the ACEPB he would see a trade surplus, not deficit, since the ACEPB is so geographically and numerically huge it supplies itself with most goods. the only things we (speaking for SeOCC, Terronos, Heliotos, Tellenic Aperin, Empire and Outer Aperin) import in bulk is food, weapons, raw materials and certain specialty goods from other countries. everything else we self supply through economic coordination. since the ACEPB exports finished products i'm not sure how the entire ACEPB could be running a monetary trade deficit.

and that 'neo-liberal argument' about capital investment is patently false in real life, and if you want proof dig up stats tracking economic trends during the Keynesian years throug 1990. such a trend is clearly built into the calculator, proving the bias of its creator. you also ignored things like economic equality; deregulation may work for boosting the GDP, but where does it put your bottom qunitile? this is, of course, not important to a capitalist.

and i really wouldn't be me if i didn't talk about the massive economic and factual errors in general. first, K measures SeOCC's economy based on the ACEPB stats, but only refers to the SeOCC city state. right there you're going to build substantial errors into analysis. and, of course, this analysis seems primarily based on GDP and nothing else; if you're not convinced that GDP doesn't tell you much about a country's economy, go to the CIA world factbook and look up Iran. you'll be convinced then.

the general lack of any mention of real economic principles in this piece is also characteristic of underdeveloped analysis. there is no mention, for instance, of growth rates; K asserts that Menelmacar has a better environment for sustained growth, but doesn't back it up with any evidence or even argument. nor is there any reference to Core - Periphery relationships, or even what industries exist in each country, something that is very important to understanding wages, poverty levels, unemployment etc, threee things that are also left out of the analysis.

my point: this report is light on real detail, and since all the conclusions made were made on very incomplete information i can't even begin to emphasize the inapplicability of said conclusions. i can only liken it to the five blind men all feeling differant parts of an elephant, trying to guess what it is.

another point: those that frequented the CACE forums when K was still allowed in (before he took part in ooc spying) might recall a rather big blow up about my characterizations of Menelmacar's economy. K got very pissy when i laid out what i thought was a sound and well reasoned explanation about why a capitalist economy cannot be 'automated.' those interested can TG me for the link, which i'll have to go dig up. K told me, in big letter, that i can't tell people what their nations look like. well what do you call using a GDP calculator i don't agree with to analyze my nation? at least i backed up my observations with solid, real life principles about investment and innovation, all that's backing up this 'analysis' is someone's arbitrary way to turn my NS stats into GDP etc.

but K has no problem adding M's unrealistic mitigation of hard economic data, nor does he hammer her for an economy based on, literally, fantasy, because, well, you draw your own conclusions. all i know is that M still doesn't have answers on how her economy runs, and K has ignored all the RP and what not i've done explaining how SeOCC would run and why it would actually work.

and now, for the record, i want this put in the final document. SeOCC does not denounce this report as 'capitalist lies' because to do so would give it ic credibility. SeOCC denounces this as ooc false; it might as well have been written about another nation because it doesn't actually talk about SeOCC. i don't know what got into K's head to pick SeOCC, he knows exactly how i feel about him and i consider this flame bait since he didn't get my permission to do this, he never inquired as to anything about my economy but put out information he knew i would disavow the moment i read it. go pick another non-capitalist nation, do a report on Edolia or someone who is still high profile. just get my name the hell out of your little game there. i don't know how much nicer i have to ask, but i'm doing it again. i want my name removed from all references; you didn't do your homework or get my permission, now deal with the consequences.

let me, in conclusion, congragulate Cirdanistan on knowing so much about SeOCC and the ACEPB. i am ashamed to admit i know much less about his country than he knows about mine, and i'm humbled and honored he was able to come up with answers i would have given myself had be not beat me to the punch.

Steel Butterfly: yes, I would actually tend to agree that space nations would need GDP’s that are vastly higher then the ones given in order to maintain all the huge space fleets. This calculator is modern-tech oriented And of course, for writers it isn’t as important. I am mainly a writer too, but also interested in this kind of borderline thing. One could, of course, RP with the given GDP’s so all nations could make only very small spacefleets. That would force space nations to work together for increased power. The United Federation of Planets from ST for example is also MANY nations/planets working together in order to maintain a decent fleet. But that is just a suggestion that I don’t expect anyone to follow. ;)

But just think of the Klingons...or even the Romulans...or of the hundreds of other races who are only one species.

And Seocc...impressive... :shock:

Although I'd have to disagree with you on numerous things...that obviously took time.

Just as a start...what do you think Frightening (the best economy in the game) means then? I had always thought Frighteningly Strong, or as you said, frightening to other nations.

If the top CR/PF rankgins beocme "excessive," then the top economic ranking should be too.

But i'm really posting to ask where this calculator is. The thirdgeek link just gives me a census of the region Commerce Heights is in.

If the top CR/PF rankgins beocme "excessive," then the top economic ranking should be too.

But i'm really posting to ask where this calculator is. The thirdgeek link just gives me a census of the region Commerce Heights is in.

Although I'd have to disagree with you on numerous things...that obviously took time.

not actually, i've been blessed with a direct conduit from mind to fingers.

Just as a start...what do you think Frightening (the best economy in the game) means then? I had always thought Frighteningly Strong, or as you said, frightening to other nations.

an economy big enough to be 'frightening' will scare everyone involved; i don't dispute that a frigthening economy is a thing to be reckoned with, but i feel it should come with downsides that i'd like to see generaly recognized.

the general problem is that Max isn't an economist, nor a political scientiest, so his stats are linear and carictatured, which is fine, he is very open about that. it's a problem for us trying to RP these stats seriously; the only thing that makes your economy frightening is the number of +economy issues you pick, after that it's up to you to RP out what's so frightening about it. it is possible to have a frightening economy, i assume, with a low economic growth rate, according to NS stats, but in real life it isn't, at least not for capitalist economies.

anyway, that aside, big economies face big problems. for one, efficiency. something that big will have a lot of redundant production, unnecessary competition and wasted products. anyone remember all that Godzilla merchandise they piled in the aisles of JC Penny's, trying to sell it after nobody wanted it? yeah.

so while an economy can produce tons and tons and tons, it will almost certainly outstrip its own ability to consume those goods, at which point you create big bottom line problems for certain firms. on the other hand, a nation with an economy sized closer to its actual ability to consume (one at, say, powerhouse) will not have to watch firms take hits for producing to much.

remember, and this is a rule not just in KSM but in feasible non-Kist economies, if you have competing firms it means you are producing more than people are able to consume. if you only produced enough, market shares would be static; you take over market share by producing more than current demand and winning new consumers, and since both sides are doing this, well, we get Godzilla toys in the aisles.

also consider the socio-political effects of an economy that large. the influence exerted on the government by the private sector or economic planners (or whoever runs the economy, unless your an anarchist) would be considerable, and would likely divert funds and attention away from issues that didn't directly impact the concerns of the economy. just like having low political freedoms tells you that you shouldn't RP a rich culture of free speech and open elections, a frightening economy should tell you that your government is neglecting certain important parts of society.

and i have to talk about growth; i know there's an NS stat for growth, but there are no recessions in NS stats either so this has to be addressed. in KSM, if your economy doesn't grow you have serious problems. even in non-Kist economies, no growth probably means a stagnating standard of living, which people never support. i generally see frightening economies as overheated, with too much investment, too much production, too much consumption, none of which is sustainable in RL.

look at CR and PF; their highest levels are widely abused and excessive, which means too much. there should be no doubt that Max's intentions, and RL, are clear: it is possible to be too free. equally, i think it's fair to say the highest levels of the economy, whose names carry that weight (something that is all consuming is not good for you), are not healty for your nation.

a frightening economy is going to have problems, problems that come with being too big, or growing to fast, or having too much, etc etc. i mean, dude, it's right there when you compare the top two levels of each category. i'm not saying frightening economies should RP collapses, but they should RP some downsides, like labor abuses, lax environmental standards, inefficient investment, stock market bubbles, corruption on Wall Street (or wherever) or something.

or look at it this way: if someone has a military that was 12% of their population, we'd all go 'fine, now RP the downside.' if you have an economy that is so big it's frightening, cool, now RP the downside.

Check out the Meritocracy's formula to the economy and it's census

Formula

http://merit.jink.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=419

Census
http://merit.jink.org/census/

double post
:oops:

triple post
:oops:

Letila has a poor GDP for a good reason: We don't use money.

-----------------------------------------
"But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality."
Free your mind! (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/bright/berkman/comanarchism/whatis_toc.html)
I like big butts!

http://www.angelfire.com/mo3/terrapvlchra/images/steatopygia.jpg

i would like to point out that, while there is considerable work put into the Meritocracies GDP calculator, and i have no expectation of them changing it or even paying attention to this constructive criticism, there are several, well, errors that should be righted.

one, while they keenly recognize that the higher levels of CR and PF are damaging, they ignore this policy when doing E. why? i have no idea.

two, the 'willingness to work' stat is good, but shouldn't be so damaged by high tax rates given the extremely liberal definition of taxes in NS. basically, any time your government spends any money, taxes go up; there is no option to appropriate funds from somewhere else, de-emphasizing, say, military as you emphasize education.

three, the productivity numbers are arbitary and silly. productivity is determined by, among other things, tech level, willingness to work, wages, the labor pool, and so on. just sticking numbers there, and then having such huge gulfs based on nothing more than the list, well it's just not kosher.

four, i'm not sure why government inefficiency decreases GDP; wouldn't a government that spends more money than it has to increase GDP by paying more wages?

Tanah Burung, look here for your region:
http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?region=The_Emerald_Heights
Then click your own nation.

Re: extremely long posts by SeOCC.
Errrrr... well, I see we still disagree on economic issues. Understandably, I don't feel like flaming over it again because nothing productive will come from it.

If anyone wants to know my opinion about your analysis (including SeOCC) then feel free to telegram me or ask me about it on IRC (#nationstates, nickname 'Knoot'.) Part of it has to do with the limitations on calculations I explained in my disclaimer, another part of our disagreement can simply be attributed to diverging economic views.

I have saved my telegram to Cirdanistan which should clarify some of the issues. I am willing to put up a defence of the used techniques and the choices I made by telegram, but I will not have a flamewar again. This is not because I do not want to stand up to public scrutiny for my work. Unfortunately, past experience has led me to believe that we are both too heavily entrenched in our positions to ever come to some sort of reasonable compromise.

As for your request: I am not going to argue the exact same thing in this thread again. See the telegrams I have sent you so far. I should note that It is not a flame bait according to a mod ruling I asked for.

---

Now, I consider the issue of a 'frightening economy' being bad a separate, non-flamewarrelated matter. (I hope this can remain civil, and that we can consider the matter closed after this reply. We are both entitled to our opinions) I think Steel Butterfly asked a good question, and I actually do like SeOCC's answer even though I conciously choose to have a frightening economy.

The Knootian economy does have things that could be considered as downsides. I actualy started RPing the Economic Recession a while back. The differences between the lowest and the highest incomes in the DDR are bigger then in a socialist nation. Knootoss does in part rely on exploiting weaker nations and workers in sweatshops abroad. (I actually RP the Knootian drug corporations in Colombia, the Pink Bunny Cola addiction, the drugrunners who deliberately make people addicted to make for a bigger market. I take the diplomatic penalty for it.) Labour Unions are more or less being intimidated by the State and Employers to accept relatively low wages. Some will recall the whole incident with the 'Labour Unions' UN resolution.

I would just like to add my own two cents to this grand debate, but first I would like to thank Knootoss, Cirdanistan, Steel Butterfly, and SeOCC for their contributions.

One point that I see remains undebated here is the basis for the NS economic and power rankings. To be blunt, the NS 'issues' are simply incapable of properly developing an accurate view of any realistic or theorized economic system...NS is simply not the place to experiment with economic structures if you want to get realistic results. The multivariable system employed for ranking different nations is pretty good at giving a very general conception of the economic, social, and political state of the nations, states, and nationstates* of NS. If one attempts to move to any serious economic, political, or social considerations, however, the system fails almost immediately.

Although the system does not allow for it, there are some economic, political, and social actions that do not necessarily have a significant effect upon those other variables. Even Max warns us of this in the FAQ (http://www.nationstates.net/pages/faq.html#politics)...the system is arbitrary, imprecise, and, more likely than not, often completely wrong. No offense (but possibly a compliment?) to Max, but it appears that he simply was not heavily or intensively trained to think sociopolitically or socioeconomically in school...and that quite possibly makes NS more interesting for players who just ignore many nation stats (apparently, the vast majority). We don't really know what Max studied in school but he might've been involved with HP as a programmer or as a marketing person...but that's secondary to the point that he never meant for people to assume that he knew how to create a reliable system for predicting economic prowess, social awareness and openess, or popular political involvement and freedoms. He has said that it is innacurate.

The Essential Truth: The NS system runs by its own rules, not by those of RL.

I think that it's amazing that so much thought has been put into how certain economic systems are 'exceptions' from the NS rules instead of how many of them fit into the RL rules. Either you accept the NS UN read-outs, you ignore them, or you have to reject them outright (if any attempt is made to rationalize). Planned economic systems can, have, and DO work (although to date only successfully on Israeli Kibbutzim)...but China, North Korea, and the USSR are examples of why it so often fails: personal motives overcoming proclaimed ideals.

One issue I noticed immediately when using the Thirdgeek calculator was a "governmental waste" value that was apparently calculated based upon the social and political freedom issues in conjunction with the tax rate...which assumes that more socialist economies might be more corrupt by nature (I'd need creator input to confirm, but that's what seems likely unless a generic, and hence completely useless, factor was introduced to create waste.) We can see some of this in different governments...the Clinton Administration was hounded too often by its Republican foes and was too focused on playing to the military to take decisive steps in cutting certain long-running military programs that the proclaimedly "pro-military" Republicans then cut (Crusader, F/A-22 (in part), Comanche, and (hopefully) the V-22 Osprey). This saved a lot of money for the military...but in a way the military was /forced/ to cut those programs because they very much ran out of funds thanks to the Republican-initiated war in Iraq and were left with no choice. At the same time, the Clinton administration was able to maintain balanced budgets that were very good at limiting governmental waste...outside of the Pentagon. This balance of budgeting, military political power, and waste has been almost completely based on political factors that have very little (directly) to do with the social freedoms, political freedoms, or economic strength of the country (social and political freedoms in the US have changed under the Bush admin, but not because of government spending or waste, rather as a result of specific policies...some might say that the same goes for the economy *ahem* (but that's another argument)). There is NO WAY IN HELL that NS could account for such things.

Other Problem Sources
Aside from the structure of NS state-rating, there are problems with trying to control the economic strength of any nation here. One major part is the issues (still very related to the above) in that many (not all) of the new issues are even more radical, philosophically-biased, and perhaps unfair to many styles of governance than the original issues. I have basically failed to answer my issues since last december or so...not out of bordem but out of the fact that the system just makes it hard to depict my state as I thought of it being run.

There is basically no trade on NS...RL charts and tables of economic data relative to the size and relative military, political, and economic strength of RL places could be used but they'd be inaccurate as they are biased by RL pre-existing conditions (such as a Bipolar Cold War-era world and the following "Unisuperpower" system that is still limited and guided by the old Cold War alliances and associations. Trade is the main source of wealth for many nations and without its inclusion we cannot generate any real idea of strength...there is no chance to do so realistically.

I do not recommend simply abandoning NS...but rather that people who want realism in economics avoid looking to the nation rankings as the "ultimate rule to make exceptions by" and start looking at it as "the ultimate rule to consider but not to follow."

Even beyond this is the point that very few people can even agree (most don't) with an ideal means of predicting economic behavior...trying to formulate new such systems for NS might be an idea, but there's almost no way to really prove it.

---
*-- In political science there is a distinct definition of each of these, with "nation-state" basically describing a state whose territory "corresponds to that occupied by a particular ethnicity that has been transformed into a nationality."(Rubenstein, James M. An Introduction to Human Geography. 7th ed. Prentice Hall, p.224). Nation-states are exceedingly rare IRL and apparently exceedingly common on NS but I try to avoid biasing my understanding of a nation since many people do not recognize this description.

PS, sorry for delay...writing two papers and talking on AIM twists time.

PPS, SeOCC brought up another great point that I left out of my original analysis:
two, the 'willingness to work' stat is good, but shouldn't be so damaged by high tax rates given the extremely liberal definition of taxes in NS. basically, any time your government spends any money, taxes go up; there is no option to appropriate funds from somewhere else, de-emphasizing, say, military as you emphasize education. This is one incredibly true factor of NS life…and why I have maintained since last July or so that the WA income tax averages in the 55-76% range, with social provisions of healthcare and many other "socialist" governmental features being included in that figure.

In reply to Western Asia:
Well, I do think that for determining what can and cannot be done in RP, a pragmatic, eclectic approach works best.

Basically, there are four major tools for this. I think they should all be used together because all have advantages and disadvantages.
1)The stats, as provided by calculators and the nation overview. They have the advantage of being very concrete and numerical This makes for hard quantitative data that can be compared. This is what I endeavoured to do with the report because it hasn’t been done before. I think making a comparison with an (imperfect) calculator is better as a source of input then relying merely on how big the ego of the player behind the nation is for things like GDP per Capita.

2)Comparing UN rankings. Well, obviously they are a source of information that is much more specific about all sorts of economic indicators, as was pointed out. You can compare the (nominal) size of things like the information technology sector. You can be creative and say that you have high weapons quality because of your education and arms manufacturing rankings while determining the size of the national military depends on defence spending. (This example would be valid in capitalist economies anyways, where the weapons are made by the private industry. Knootoss makes good weapons and exports them to third world nations. The government imports crap weapons from allies who don’t need them anymore for example.) Calculators cannot do this.
Of course, there are some flaws as Max’s code isn’t perfect. For example, Knootoss ranks 121,469th in the world for Highest Police Ratios but is at the same time said to have an ‘all-pervasive police force’. These two can simply not exist at the same time. I will not even attempt to discuss things like the ‘nicest’ ratings. As WA pointed out, the rankings aren’t a Bible for absolute realism but they are useful guidelines.

3)The real world. I often use this to determine what would be ‘fair’. In general, people aren’t willing to accept missiles that go 10 times the speed of light because of physical principles. More in the economic sphere: I have a certain distaste for those armies of millions of people who attack all at once because of their maintenance and logistical problems. I base my army size on what is normal for a RL nation of my ‘type’ to do. This site is often very useful for such things. (http://www.nationmaster.com/).
Of course, NS isn’t the real world and there are differences. NS nations may be more extreme then the current RL ones, the populations may have ideologies or economical systems unheard off in RL. Nations may be based not on modern tech but on space/future tech. Obviously ‘the real world’ doesn’t answer all.

4)Roleplay I think you can ‘get away with’ a lot by RP. Creative roleplay and input by the player is needed to fill the holes and imperfections of the two sources above. It can also be used to make the nation more unique. Obviously there is more to a nation then the size of its GDP and how ‘pro-business’ Max’s code thinks it is. This is what makes it fun! (Also, trying to explain your rankings. For example the, well, creative ways how the IFTA’s economic growth is explained by other reasons then how issues are answered. Or the terraforming of planets. Or (for me) constantly trying to open trade deals and open new markets. This is also why I think that Knootoss ought to have a more open economy then the calculator says. (But I accept it as a given when comparing nations to be fair!)
However, I am a puritan in that nations should at least base themselves on stats, rankings and reality while being creative. I am against simply ignoring the ratings wholesale because they you hold you back and you want to be better. A nation with an imploded economy and, boys selling lemonade and an IT sector ranked 100k cannot, in my opinion, be in the possession of a Star Destroyer no matter how well it is described.

In conclusion
You have a ‘field of tension’ of different sorts of input that will friction and at times be at odds with each other.

PS.
On the tax issue, I believe that players do have a responsibility towards their tax rates. I think that *is* actually possible to make choices regarding taxation and priorities. When you, for example, want to give money to education instead of defence you have to consistently choose against giving more money to defence and choose the ‘more money’ option in education. The problem that was mentioned is that tis does not make for an immediate trade-off. That is why I think about tax-rates as something that works with some delays and is subject to fluctuation. The general trend does count though.

The ‘problem’ with the “near 100% tax” people is that they don’t realise the full scope of their decision making. (I’m not talking about those who want to have high taxes here for ideological reasons, mind you!) When you have to make the decision whether or not to spend more on defence. (you know the issue with the protestors. The issue is not just whether you like defence or not.
You also have to consider this trade-off: “Is my better defence rating as a result of choosing [option 1] worth a 3% increase in income tax that will hurt my economy?”

I had this problem myself for a while with income tax approaching 70%. For any capitalist economy that competes, this would be dramatic and simply ignoring the tax rating was not acceptable for me. This caused me to look on the issues differently, and make budget cuts even when my preferred choice wouldn’t involve cutting welfare. It is just that there is too much welfare already, as demonstrated by the high tax level.

Choosing an issue does not completely and utterly alter your nation to something completely different, it only gives a nudge in another direction. By choosing the ‘damn those poor people’ options a couple of time you can still have a welfare state. Just a less well-funded welfare state.

Off to watch Euronews and go to bed now. Feline, you can TG me with your ideas ;)

a frightening economy is going to have problems, problems that come with being too big, or growing to fast, or having too much, etc etc. i mean, dude, it's right there when you compare the top two levels of each category. i'm not saying frightening economies should RP collapses, but they should RP some downsides, like labor abuses, lax environmental standards, inefficient investment, stock market bubbles, corruption on Wall Street (or wherever) or something.


At least we see eye to eye in this aspect, Seocc. My nation does have it's problems with business, and you've hit on two of the biggest: labor abuses and corruption. Now, being that I OOCly don't care much for unions and worker's rights to begin with...well...the labor abuses only come natural. Corruption is thrown in to add spice to my empire, one that otherwise would be rather utopian (read: boring). Hell, the foundation for my civil war is that a certain corporation got a bit too corrupt, even for my Empire's standards. Unfortunately, this corporation is sided with the Emperor...so hense the civil war.

How do you come up with all the other things in that calculator like the exchage rate, government waste etc?

It is very good but is extreamly biased to a liberal government stace.

Check out the Meritocracy's formula to the economy and it's census

Formula

http://merit.jink.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=419

Census
http://merit.jink.org/census/
Formula:
http://terranordalis.thirdgeek.com/viewtopic.php?t=58
They seem strikingly similar. Hmm...I wonder why...? :P
(The Meritocracy's census is where I got the idea for the calculator in the first place. ;) )

As for the "liberal bias" - it's open-source, feel free to make your own calculator as long as you don't touch my copyright! :P

OOC: it is interesting that the calculator matches exactly how I've been RPing my nations economy.

OOC: it is interesting that the calculator matches exactly how I've been RPing my nations economy.

This site is often very useful for such things. (http://www.nationmaster.com/)

Ooh, nice. :D I'm bigger than Antarctica!

This site is often very useful for such things. (http://www.nationmaster.com/)

Ooh, nice. :D I'm bigger than Antarctica!

This site is often very useful for such things. (http://www.nationmaster.com/)

Ooh, nice. :D I'm bigger than Antarctica!

Ooh, nice. :D I'm bigger than Antarctica!

Ooh, does my bum look big in this continent?

:P

AKA Taggity Tag for Wombat bait.

WN

Tag for reading later

The calculator gives me an error every time I try to get Conservatopia's information. :(
Error getting nation data
XML error: junk after document element at line 1

Nation name missing.

Your region is too big for the calculator to compute, Nianacio. You need to temporarily move to a smaller region if you want to see your own nation.

Bring Up My Post.

Ooh, nice. :D I'm bigger than Antarctica!

Ooh, does my bum look big in this continent?

:P

AKA Taggity Tag for Wombat bait.

WN

Rut roh, raggy!

Knoot, this is awesome, and it proves my theory that Mars is one of the most powerful groups of nations in the Solar System. In the military field they may not be superior, but economically and technoligically they are. But Mars has a lot of political problems. There is no true political unity and most nations are imperilaistic colonies. As the free land dwindles on Mars, tensions increase but anyways....

Knoot you're awesome. And I envy you :P

*gloats in awesomeness*
\^_^/

I might do a report on Mars vs Moon or Mars vs Io or something if it is appreciated by both sides...

Your region is too big for the calculator to compute, Nianacio. You need to temporarily move to a smaller region if you want to see your own nation.What is the maximum number of nations you can have in your region for this calculator to work?

It won't calculate for my nation.

Thanks for the link! Being a non-expert on economic matters, am I to assume that the nations with higher GDP per capita have better economies?

Top 3 in The New Galaxy

The Underground City - $36,584.92
Caveymen - $28,238.04
Clonetopia - $26,111.51

East Moon: Hrm... Commerce Heights probably knows the maximum number. It definitly doesn't do regions of about a hundred and I've seen it do regions of 30 or so. It is probably somewhere in between. If you still want to calculate for your region I suggest you move elsewhere. ;)

Clonetopia: higher is indeed better/richer. However there are of course more things tobe said about an economy then GDP per capita. ;)

For the region of ancient egypt, I get the message:

Cannot locate XML data file: httP://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/regiondata.cgi/region=ancient20%egypt

Clonetopia: higher is indeed better/richer. However there are of course more things tobe said about an economy then GDP per capita. ;)

I guessed that higher GDP was richer, as I know which nations are high-economies from the nation pages, but beyond that, I don't know anything.

I'm no expert, like I said. I haven't done much RPing and none of what I have done involved stats, so all I know about economies is what it says on the nation page.

Your region is too big for the calculator to compute, Nianacio. You need to temporarily move to a smaller region if you want to see your own nation.I thought so. :( Unfortunately, I don't think the other nations in Conservatopia would be happy if their Head of the Domestic Affairs Department disappeared. :o

Nianacio:
Well, I'm sure they can miss you for half an hour. ;) You could move regions, check the stats and move back.

Nianacio:
Well, I'm sure they can miss you for half an hour. ;) You could move regions, check the stats and move back.Wouldn't I have to be in the new region for a server update?
I'm UN Delegate, now too...

No... you don't. :)

For the region of ancient egypt, I get the message:

Cannot locate XML data file: httP://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/regiondata.cgi/region=ancient20%egypt

Try http://www.nationstates.net/cgi-bin/regiondata.cgi/region=ancient_egypt

{Tag; For Informational Purposes}

{Tag; For Informational Purposes}

Thanks goober, I missed that one ;)

OOC: This is mainly a tag for the purposes of reference but an added opinion would be that if Seocc finds so much fault with current GDP calculators, then Seocc should design either:-

1) A step by step guide on how to calculate your GDP accurately with commentary designed to explain each aspect.
2) A calculator that would be just as accurate.

All this is very interesting.

*nods to Greenfarm*

I believe he also intends to do something like that. (Not sure though.) We'll see.

first, SeOCC finds fault with ALL GDP calculators because they suppose to place one universal formula as a way to measure ALL nations' economies. how stupid, as if the world was homogonized milk. so given that, to address:

1) A step by step guide on how to calculate your GDP accurately with commentary designed to explain each aspect.
2) A calculator that would be just as accurate.

i started the NationStates Political Economy Review (http://invisionfree.com/forums/CACE/index.php?showtopic=1226), which can be read by people who haven't been IP banned from our forum for ooc spying. this is a, hopefully, collaborative project that will create a qualitative but fairly uniform description of economies, as well as a quantitiative measurement for various sectors with which to describe the economy. HELPFUL comments are welcome; comments defending GDP calcs can be put somewhere else, preferably less comfortably.

the key; IT'S NOT ALL GOING TO BE THE SAME.

Interesting. Condemning a GDP calculator and then going about to make your own 'unbiased' calculator.

As you quite rightly pointed out GDP measures money spent, and does not take other economic factors into consideration. This is why it is a very objective tool when measuring the size of an economy. For example, if someone spends $5,000.00 that means that they HAD $5,000.00. That number can't be fudged, you can look at it and say 'that person made at least $5,000.00 and that he/she spent $5,000.00 and it went somewhere ' . You can then start filling in the blanks and tracking where the money went, was it 'real' money or was it a line of credit etc. etc........ GDP is only a starting point. It is simply a measure of spending power.

Quite simply,the more money your nation has to spend, the more it can buy. From there you can go ahead and combine any other set of numbers, factors that you want. There is no 'unbiased' or completely 'unobjective' economic indicator because each indicator starts with the bias of the economist that compiles it, and what data they choose to compile.

*nods*
Exactly as Ilek/Vaad says. This is also why I used this figure. (Also because it is one of the few figures that can actually be calculated using the nation data.)

The 'qualitative' approach is nice, but it is simply a different thing to be doing, it is not better as a replacement. In fact, some of the things you are now compiling data on I have already thought up at some point. (I mean things like communication and infrastructure, the openness of the economy and how the privare sector divides up into primary/secondary/tertiary sector)

This data used to be on my now-down website but I can dig it up again. Just need the time and spirit to do it. The thing about this 'qualitative approach' is that is also heavily relies on making shit up so who comes out "best" is at least partly a measure of the writers ego. Still, it is much more in-depth and I am glad that I have inspired you guys to do some stuff again. Not that I expect any gratitude, but still. :P

This is... unexpected...

http://www.thirdgeek.com/nseconomy.php?statistics=1&num_results=10[/url]]
The Disputed Territories of Trashed Wasteland 1 bribe = $2.0206 $47,128.80
The Libertarian Paradise of Sunset 1 Di-Coin = $2.0118 $46,719.90
The Technocracy of ToXXic 1 xhar = $2.0108 $46,672.50
The Unified Corporations of Nuzzle 1 Round = $2.0107 $46,669.10
The Uberkapitaliztrepublik of Commerce Heights 1 simoleon = $2.0015 $46,239.30
The Capitalist Utopia of Kuli La-Mirah 1 shiny coin = $1.9984 $46,097.10
The Quixotic Isle of Ellafras 1 raisin = $1.9955 $45,964.40
The Empire of Crestwhitestrips 1 strip = $1.9911 $45,762.00
The Semi-Autonomous Technocratic of The Most Glorious Hack 1 chit = $1.9910 $45,758.10
The Accidental Monolith of Etatsnoitan 1 money = $1.9791 $45,213.10

Am I reading this right? I've got the 9th best exchange rate in the game (according to this calculator, and discounting people in regions too big for this calc)?

This is... unexpected...

Am I reading this right? I've got the 9th best exchange rate in the game (according to this calculator, and discounting people in regions too big for this calc)?

There's no such thing as a 'best' exchange rate. You have the ninth strongest. Unfortunately for you, this means that, by the numbers, your ability to export goods competatively is the ninth worst in the world, whereas your markets, barring protectionist strategies (which are rather frowned upon in some corners of NS) and assuming a free market, are relatively open to foreigners.

Given the imact of that on your Balance of Trade, I am pleased to see that the calculator gives you a comparatively high trade defecit. Good work Commerce Heights!

I suggest we all flood the Hack with our cheap goods made by our comparatively poor citizens now :wink:

lol

*begins shipping in the low-quality high-addictiveness cola*

The price you pay for having rich citizens. They like to buy stuff... 8)

There's no such thing as a 'best' exchange rate. You have the ninth strongest. Unfortunately for you, this means that, by the numbers, your ability to export goods competatively is the ninth worst in the world, whereas your markets, barring protectionist strategies (which are rather frowned upon in some corners of NS) and assuming a free market, are relatively open to foreigners.

Given the imact of that on your Balance of Trade, I am pleased to see that the calculator gives you a comparatively high trade defecit. Good work Commerce Heights!

I suggest we all flood the Hack with our cheap goods made by our comparatively poor citizens now :wink:

Yeah... I suppose that exchange rate would help explain my whopping $822 Billion trade deficit. Especially when you factor in that I've been strongly anti-tarrif since day one.

And, hey, I ranked somewhere around 116k for "Largest Manufactoring Sector". I need your poorly made crap! :P

I'm sure the hack will come to appreciate the Electronic Bananapeeler 3000™ . Do you have Tell Sell?

Bah! Poorly made, I'll have you know our exports are well made!

Well, mine are, Knoot on the other hand... well... :P

Hey! My exports are fine!

*tempmoves into Hacks region*
1 (Knootian) Euro = 0.9670 The Most Glorious Hack chits

Bah... thats not a really huge advantage.

*moves back*

"Electronic" Bananapeeler?

Bah. Electronics we've got in spades. Now, as for things like cars, buildings, hammers, clothes, etc... well... you'll have to fight GMC for those rights, heh.

I also noticed something else by extended the link's results to 50. Aparently I'm 22nd for Largest GDP too. When did I become an economic powerhouse?!

*plays his Galdago card*
http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~lst4606/ns/Galdago/cards/knootoss.png

Maybe this particular piece of electronics hasn't been used yet as a nice item? :P

And we did talk about exporting recreational drugs some time ago ;)

Bah. Electronic anything is hardly a "niche" market in the Hack:

http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~lst4606/ns/Galdago/cards/mgh.png

*blinks*

Eleventh highest GDP, with only two above me that I know of as RPers?

It appears that my economy is uber. I am most pleased... :D

Well, it should be noted that only 1995 nations are actually measured. I'm usually in a big region too, so not on the list ;) I now tempmoved back to Holland for the calc just now. Don't inflate your ego just yet.

Err... I do know this Knoot... Hence the emoticons.

I'm actually quite annoyed that my govenment waste has plummeted in this version. I used to waste 10 trillion, now only a puny 1 point three trillion‼

Yes... and GDP is up. Though I am doing comparatively worse with having a deficit and all.

Tax Cut man to the rescue! (http://www.markfiore.com/animation/taxcut.html)