NationStates Jolt Archive

Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar

Introduction

Background:

Menelmacar was initially founded almost thirty-two thousand years ago by refugees from the Elven city of Ost-in-Edhil in the realm of Eregion, destroyed by Sauron midway through the second age. The empire was initially founded with the intention of providing a safe haven for any Elves seeking one, and also of continuing on the path Eregion had forged, one of supremacy in the twin arts of science and magic, yet without the aid of external powers.

The exiles' ships landed at what is now known as the Fëanorian Isles, building their capital of Vinyatirion within the natural walls of the mountains they named the Pelóri. For many years they struggled against hostile nearby tribes of Orcs and Men and tamed the rugged lands. As the population grew, the borders expanded across the archipelago, and when Menelmacar reached its present size, the Elves became content to consolidate. Other human realms surrounding the growing empire showed high demand for Elven goods, and Menelmacar capitalized on these trade relations to the hilt, at great profit to themselves.

More recently, starting roughly five thousand years ago, was a period of relative isolationism that ended only recently; the two main interruptions in this were Menelmacar's alliance with the Roman Empire, and the world-spanning exploratory journey of the first gravship, Randir, approximately a thousand years ago, which touched many realms. There were also assorted colonizations outwards from Menelmacar during this period, which were independent of the Menelmacari government.

Recently Menelmacar began a policy of engagement with the international community as a response to public opinion that Menelmacar's non-interference in the two World Wars had needlessly cost tens of millions of lives. Today Menelmacar's alliances and trade relations extend to all corners of human and Elven civilization, and the empire has undergone an aggressive but generally-peaceful policy of colonization and expansion, both on Earth and off.

Geography

Location: Tareldanorë

Area:

Land: Approximately equal to the contiguous United States, roughly 9,629,091 km² (Menelmacar proper only)
Water: Ehh... more.
Total: A whole heck of a lot.

Land Boundaries:

Boarder Countries: Lavenrunz, Seck'Sapeel (subterranean), Gabil-gathol (subterranean), and others yet to be determined ;). Formerly EOTED, prior to that nation's sinking below the waves by Eru Ilúvatar. (Menelmacar proper only)

Coastline: 202,820 km (Menelmacar proper only)

Maritime Claims:

Contiguous zone: 24 NM
Territorial sea: 12 NM, plus all of Airemma
Exclusive economic zone: 200 NM, plus all of Airemma
continental shelf: 200 NM or to the edge of the continental margin, whichever is greater

Climate: Equatorial, with temperate regions in the north. Cool in the mountains; arid desert regions in the southwest.

Terrain: Vast archipelago of mountainous, heavily-forested islands with broad, richly fertile river valleys. Grassy plains in northwest and southeast, arid desert in southwest.

Elevation Extremes:

Lowest Point: Sea level
Highest Point: Taniquetil, 9741 m

Natural Resources: Mithril, gold, iron, molybdenum, diamonds, bauxite, phosphates, mineral sands, nickel, potash, uranium, silver, tin, mercury, tungsten, copper, zinc, petroleum, natural gas, timber

Land Use:

Arable Land: 29.73%
Other: 69.83%
Permanent Crops: 0.44%

Natural Hazards: Hurricanes on eastern coastlines. A few volcanoes. Blizzards and permafrost in the mountains; occasional sandstorms in southwestern desert.

People

Population: 2,250,000,000 (January 2004 Estimate)

Life Expectancy at Birth:

Elven: indefinite
Human: 94.26 years

HIV/AIDS – Adult Prevalence Rate: 0.00005%

HIV/AIDS – People Living with AIDS: 1125 (2003 Estimate)

HIV/AIDS – Deaths: Less than 30 (2003 Estimate)

Nationality:

Noun: Menelmacari
Adjective Menelmacari

Ethnic Groups: (Menelmacar proper only) Elven 95% (Noldor 65%, Sindar 15%, Avari 5%, Silvan 5%, Vanyar 5%), Human 3% (no ethnicity above 0.25%), other 2% (drow, foxgirl, etc.)

Religion: 'The Faith' 90%, agnostic 5%, Sirithilist 2%, Jewish 1%, Christian 1%, no other faith above 0.5%

Languages: Quenya, Sindarin, English

Literacy:

Definition: Age 15 and over can read and write
Total population: 100%
Male: 100%
Female: 100%

Government

Country Name:

Conventional Long Form: Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar
Conventional Short Form: Menelmacar
Local Long Form: Oira Noldorinwa Arnanorë Menelmacariva
Local Short Form: Menelmacar
Abbreviation: ENEM

Government Type: Unicameral advisory Conclave of Equals, half elected, half nobility, answering to a absolute hereditary monarch, the Elentári.

Capital: Vinyatirion

Administrative Divisions: Menelmacar proper, plus two external provinces (All Elves and Thelas), seven in-system colonies (Eärendil, Isil, Carnil, Ceres, Valarauka, Helcaraxë, Tulkas), two out-system colonies (Vinyarda, Baal IV).

Dependant Areas: Menelmacari America (protectorate; consists of eastern former US; partition of nation with Sovereign California and NYNJ ended Second Civil War with endorsement of American public and then-President MADDUX), Menelmacari Congo (protectorate; consists of former Democratic Republic of Congo-Kinshasa; Menelmacar intervened in local civil war, ending bloodshed and re-establishing order and prosperity), The Menelmacari Emirates (protectorate; consists of the unification of the former nations of Kuwait, Bahrain, Qatar, and the United Arab Emirates; seized in the aftermath of the Drum Gods collapse), Roania (protectorate; ceded by Kionash Tor Yvresse).

Independence: 19 December 29,865 BCE, founding

National Holiday: 19 December, Founding Day

Legal System: Verdicts based on preponderance of the evidence; no presumption of either guilt or innocence. Trials by tribunal of judges. Similar in many ways to English-style common law, but several differences also. Does not recognize ICJ jurisdiction.

Suffrage: 18 years of age for humans and 50 for Elves; universal. No political parties; order-of-preference ballot.

Executive Branch:

Head of State: Elentári Sirithil nos FËANOR; note: Elentári is both the Head of State and Head of Government
Head of Government: Elentári Sirithil nos FËANOR; note: Elentári is both the Head of State and Head of Government
Cabinet: Synod appointed by Elentári as needed. Usually made up of nobles, though some exceptions exist. Each member of the Synod is a Prefect, heading up a particular Prefecture, or department, of the government; some Prefects-without-portfolio exist.
Elections: No elections for executive branch.

Legislative Branch: unicameral advisory Conclave of Equals consists half of the ruling nobles of each House, and the other half of elected representatives with five-year terms.
Elections: Annual, five-sector, rotating basis. No political parties; elections conducted by district on order-of-preference ballots.

Judicial Branch: Imperial Court (twenty-one justices appointed by Elentári, seven selected at random for each case), Appellate Courts, High Courts, District Courts. The word of the Elentári herself is the final court of appeal.

International Organisation Participation: AU; EAA; FAO; IAEA; IBRD; IBTA; ICAO; ICC; IFC; IFRCS/ICRM; IHO; IMF; IMO; IOC; IOM; ISO; ITU; OAS; OECD; OPCW; OPEC; SATO; Interpol; ToY; UE; UN note – voting member and regional delegate, tends to ignore resolutions anyway; UNESCO; UNIDO; UPU; UTP; WBO; WHO; WIPO; WMO; WTO; ZC
(OOC: A lot of these are RL organizations, which may or may not have relevance to NS.)

Environmental Agreement Participation: Air Pollution, Antarctic Treaty, Biodiversity, Desertification, Endangered Species, Environmental Modification, Hazardous Wastes, Law of the Sea, Marine Dumping, Marine Life Conservation, Nuclear Test Ban, Ozone Layer Protection, Ship Pollution, Tropical Timber 83, Tropical Timber 94, Wetlands, Whaling
(OOC: All RL treaties, may or may not have relevance to NS.)

Flag: http://www.nationstates.net/images/flags/uploads/menelmacar.jpg

Economy

Economic Overview: Menelmacar's economy is among the world's largest and most technologically advanced. The free-market capitalist Menelmacari economy grants firms and individuals impressive flexibility in all areas of operation, and innovative laws such as the Trade Reform Act permit Menelmacar to ensure fairness in international trade while avoiding a protectionist stance. Military industries are strong due to the demand presented by the MIDF, and information technology, book publishing, and all manner of consumer goods are in heavy demand both at home and around the world, as shown by relative lack of negative effect from the breakoff of relations with EOTED.

Strengths of the Menelmacari economy include its remarkable trade surplus; the use of the credit as international trade currency by many leading nations; the security of its financial institutions and data networks, as necessitated by economic aggression by CACE; general self-sufficiency in terms of natural resources; extraordinary distribution capabilities despite the far-flung nature of the empire; excellent working relationships between government and industry; millennia of experience with capitalism, meaning greater stability; and an industrious and investment-savvy population.

Long term problems include the increasing development of a two-tier labor market divided among elven/human lines; the fight against inflation due to large money supply; the cost of territorial expansion; and the struggle to retain technological supremacy in the world market.

GDP: purchasing power parity - $115,515,000,000,000 USD (M€46,206,000,000,000)

GDP - per capita: purchasing power parity - $51,340 USD (M€20,536)

Population Below Poverty Line: N.A., Government administered private-funded welfare system.

Unemployment Rate: 3.4%

Inflation Rate: 3.6%

Labor Force: 2,175,000,000 (includes unemployed)

Industries: A leading industrial power in the world, highly diversified and technologically advanced; optronics, arms, aerospace, vehicles, steel, chemicals, telecommunications, food processing, consumer goods, lumber, mining

Electricity - Production: 2.98 x 10^20 J (82.283 trillion kWh)

Electricity - Consumption: 2.88 x 10^20 J (80.047 trillion kWh)

Electricity - Production by Source:

fusion: 94%
geothermal: 3%
hydroelectric: 2%
other: 1%

Currency: Menelmacari credit, divided into one thousand millicredits; symbol €. M€1 = ~US$2.50.

Currency Code: MC

Fiscal Year: 7 April - 6 April

Communications:
general assessment: a massive, technologically advanced, multipurpose communications system.
domestic: a large optronics-based system of fiber-optic cable and domestic satellites carries every form of telephone traffic; extensive, nearly-bottomless bandwidth carries very-high-speed multimedia to every home; cellular system carries mobile telephone traffic throughout the country; quantum-entanglement communications used for interplanetary transmission.
international: 284 optronic fiber-optic ocean cable systems in use; vast network of several hundred advanced satellites also in use.

Holovision Stations: Over 100,000, roughly half of which are associated with four major holonets (ISN, MBC, QBS, ELF)

Internet Country Code: .em (Menelmacar-specific top level domains also include .elf, .midf, .enem)

Internet Penetration: 100%

Internet Service Providers: ~75,000

Transportation:

Ports and Harbors: (Menelmacar proper only) Armenelos, Arnediad Lonnath, Caras Aeglos, Brithombar, Caras Anor, Caras Glawar, Caras Ithil, Celebarad, Crisslond, Edhilond, Emyn Norui, Eressëa, Ezellohar, Faelfalas, Forlond, Harlond, Lauregroth, Lithfalas, Meriliaun, Minas Limgûl, Ninniach, Nûrgroth, Osgiliath, Ost-in-Alfírin, Pelargir, Silharthad, Silivren, Sirasgar, Taur Lalvenath, Vinyalqualondë, Vinyahimring, Vinyatirion, Vinyondolindë

Merchant Marine: 4,382 ships (1000 GT or over)
Ships by type: gravitic multipurpose heavy freighter 1,793; deep-space resource harvester 1,000; gravitic multipurpose superheavy freighter 625; gravitic multipurpose tanker 381; gravitic petroleum tanker 293; deep-space resource controller 100; gravitic vehicle carrier 98; gravitic submersible salvage 37; gravitic refrigerated cargo 29; deep-space research cruiser 25 (attached to merchant marine but reports to Prefecture of Science); exploration command vessel 1 (attached to merchant marine but reports to Prefecture of Science).

Airports: (total, Menelmacar proper only) 39,284, all with facilities for gravships.

Military:

Military Budget: pegged at 5% of GDP

Military Branches: Menelmacari Imperial Defense Force - unified force. Divided largely into more or less self-sufficient battle groups. Additional Field Armies and transport capacity, and some specialized warships, can be drawn from the Central Pool. Menelmacari government also operates a coast guard, and reserve forces, and an extensive merchant marine.

Military Manpower:

Age: humans 18+ years of age, elves 50+ years of age
Active Military Personnel: ~10,000,000 (male and female)
Available Military Personnel: ~2,175,000,000 (male and female)
Military Trained Manpower: ~2,125,000,000 (male and female, 2004 estimate; compulsory basic combat training with sword, firearm, and bow, with elective advanced training)

Transnational Issues:

Disputes - International:

Menelmacar inherited all border disputes from protectorate countries; Menelmacar has made no territorial claim in Antarctica (but has reserved the right to do so) and does not recognize the claims of any other state; territorial status of Dawn Wastes undetermined; Menelmacar resists Sovereign California expansionistic tendencies; Menelmacari claim to Emirates protectorate disputed by several local nations; Menelmcari claim to Kasaï and Katanga regions of Congolese protectorate disputed by Warlordia.

Disputes - National:

Active rebellion underway in Thelas province; Roania protectorate enacting counterproductive economic measures.

Illicit Drugs:

Financial network security makes Menelmacar an attractive money-laundering center; disputes over smuggling have strained relations in the past with DDR Knootoss.

I don't mean to butt in, but I want to just get it in here that we still want to open diplomatic relations with Menelmacar.

OOC: As I said on IRC, its nice

*claps*

[I do this at every good world factbook entry I see.]

a nice addition to the NS world factbook! I've added it.

OOC: Very, very nice. Amazingly thorough.

TAG, I'll post mine soon!

Double post tagging...this is sad...

TAG, I'll post mine soon, anyway Aelosia already has 1 billion!

Awesome! And you used my version of the military thing :) I feel honoured ;)

And you're right, they really are cool welfare systems!

I was about to say nice work......but then I noticed an unusually high number of zeros tacked unto the end of your "Available Military Personnel (~2,175,000,000)" and "Military Trained Manpower (~2,125,000,000)". I find it highly unlickely that a nation with your level of political and civil freedoms would not contain more than your fair share of "conscientious objectors".

Still nice work I suppose..................*shuffles away knowing that he'll just get ignored*

Actually, Sketch, I'm not going to ignore you; your point was sound and should be addressed and clarified.

There are a few conscientious objectors... Menelmacar does not have the draft, I should note. By available military forces, I mean people fit for military duty.

There are, however, some basic combat skills in the general school curriculum, particularly in the area of traditional Elven weapons such as the sword and the bow. There is a great deal of cultural pride in Elven martial skill with such weapons, and so basic training with such has remained in effect down through the ages, more recently with an extension to the program to include firearms. Many individuals seek to continue practicing and increasing their skill with weapons as a hobby after finishing their schooling. It's not equivalent to the sorts of training actual enlisted soldiers receive, but it's enough that a relatively capable and numerous militia could be mustered in the event of invasion.

~Siri

<Intel tag 633>

It is very nice. My hat is off to you Menelmacar.

Well, certainly took all the air out of my sails, haven't you? :wink:

Very well, I can live with your explanation. Misleading numbers (like all statistics), but valid when properly explained.

All these fact books makes me want to do my own.....nah :P

Just edited the factbook. (January 20, 2004)

Changes:
- added a slight bit more detail on Menelmacar's protectorates under Dependent Areas;
- clarified how the Conclave is elected;
- removed a section about British parliamentarism under the executive branch that shouldn't have been there at all, and which either nobody noticed, or everyone was too polite to tell me about. ;)

More edits. (January 21, 2004)

Changes:
- changed Internet country code to .em (Empire of Menelmacar), since .mm is in use in RL by Burma/Myanmar.

~Siri

OOC:

Just a nitpick about your military personnel numbers. "Active age" also has a cutoff date as well. You can hardly expect to fill your army with 80 year old humans and the equivalent for the elves. As a point of reference, the CIA factbook considers males between 15-49 as "fit for military service".

CIA factbook (http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/)

I believe your numbers need to be adjusted downwards.

edit: I realized that Sketch asked a very similar question and that you clarified, but still...it seems rather high. To reiterate, an 80 year old human may have the skills, but most certainly cannot be expected to be considered fit enough. I suppose some wiggle room could be made on the cut off date.

Well, see, that's the thing about Elves... there *isn't* a cutoff for Elves. They're ageless. Siri's forty-eight thousand years old, but she could probably kick the arse of most young sixty-year-old Elves in a physical fight.

That said, I stress the numbers reflect *availability*, not any feasible military force. Menelmacar does not have the means to equip and field those sorts of numbers, and no nation does (or should).

~Siri

OOC:

No cut off for elves? Ah...immortality (in respects to aging and disease) does have its benefits then I suppose. Having said that, there should be other problems associated with an ever growing population that does not die (such as resources - unless the elves do not require food or water).

And Siri herself is an unrepresentative sample. Your armies would not be composed of vast amount of Siri-type individuals. At best, (and I do mean in the context of stretching it) the special ops might be along these lines.

Food and water? The birth rate is relatively low. Presumably they can sail into the West if they like (though I'm not entirely sure of this). And there's always imports. :) This might also be a partial explanation for Menelmacari expansionism, aside from the fact Elves simply don't like particularly crowded conditions. Part of why my people need all those colonies and such, when there are human nations of equal population crowded into areas the size of my bathroom.

And 'tis true that Siri is hardly a representative sample, I used her as a well-known example that there's no physiological reason an ancient Elf can't serve in the military alongside Elves hundreds of times their junior. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if an Elven society discouraged the military as a career path to take right out of high school, but instead preferred it to be something for 'older' folks... Someone older and wiser is less likely to make the kind of reckless decisions that tend to get people killed in battle. On the other hand, someone older and wiser is probably less likely to join the army in the first place. ;) The average enlistment age, I'd think, might be between two and three hundred years.

~Siri

Food and water? The birth rate is relatively low. Presumably they can sail into the West if they like (though I'm not entirely sure of this). And there's always imports. :) This might also be a partial explanation for Menelmacari expansionism, aside from the fact Elves simply don't like particularly crowded conditions. Part of why my people need all those colonies and such, when there are human nations of equal population crowded into areas the size of my bathroom.

OOC: The question about food and water wasn't intended to be facetious, although I can see how it might be interpreted that way. But yes, the resource drain would be enormous - and that would explain your expansionist bent. So elves are vulnerable to starvation?

And 'tis true that Siri is hardly a representative sample, I used her as a well-known example that there's no physiological reason an ancient Elf can't serve in the military alongside Elves hundreds of times their junior. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if an Elven society discouraged the military as a career path to take right out of high school, but instead preferred it to be something for 'older' folks... Someone older and wiser is less likely to make the kind of reckless decisions that tend to get people killed in battle. On the other hand, someone older and wiser is probably less likely to join the army in the first place. ;) The average enlistment age, I'd think, might be between two and three hundred years.

~Siri

OOC: Hmm, so elves at 20 000 years old are still as youthful, vigor, and clear-minded as when they were a "teenager"? Still, I somehow think that there are limits in how much knowledge and skill can be crammed into an elf. Why do I start thinking of the Highlander here?

Enlistment age at a mere 100-200 years (considering they can live for thousands) would hardly make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.

OOC: The question about food and water wasn't intended to be facetious, although I can see how it might be interpreted that way. But yes, the resource drain would be enormous - and that would explain your expansionist bent. So elves are vulnerable to starvation?
Quite right, presumably. Given that Elves are vulnerable to physical death through injury and such, and given the fact they eat, presumably they'd also be vulnerable to starvation just as anyone else would be.

OOC: Hmm, so elves at 20 000 years old are still as youthful, vigor, and clear-minded as when they were a "teenager"? Still, I somehow think that there are limits in how much knowledge and skill can be crammed into an elf. Why do I start thinking of the Highlander here?
Presumably when creating a species capable of living forever, Ilúvatar would have addressed this; even when they sail into the West, an Elf continues to live on in the Undying Lands, and at rather less risk of death than there is here... and I have some difficulty believing Tolkien intended said place to have the feel of an old folks' home full of Alzheimers patients.

Enlistment age at a mere 100-200 years (considering they can live for thousands) would hardly make much of a difference in the grand scheme of things.
Well, they wouldn't stay in the military all their lives, certainly. An Elf, in most cases, will walk many paths, try many careers and fields of study and even periods of simple leisure, over the course of their existence, sampling all that the world has to offer. I think I read somewhere the average person changes careers something like four or five times - an Elf might, with rather more lifetime to fill, try forty or fifty or even more different things, for varying lengths of time.

~Siri

Jesus, what doesnt this place have? Billions and billions of people with no resource problem, apparently no AIDS problem, no mention of crime, zero to grav lift ships in ~34000 years when it took humans hundreds of thousands of years to move past fire as the biggest thing. Hell, what DOESNT this place have, besides problems? Can anyone imagine a more powerful/perfect place?

Hmmm... Nothing impressive. Apparent problem in using the USD for comparisons if the US has been broken up and effectively conquered. If the dollar has not been obliterated, it is surely devalued. Tends to happen when your currency is fiat.

Either you do not control the US, thus allowing the USD to exist in its current state, or Menelmacari has some of the poorest citizens on this side of the planet.

Interestingly, the .mm internet code is owned by Burma.

Ho-hum.

- Sovy K.

Yay! Menelmacar has its own Wolrd Factbook entry now!

:D

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

Hmm. A Menelmacari factbook. Good stuff. I may do my own sometime.

Xen: I think the USD thing is the current real world USD value. Many nations provide it for the sake of exchange rates; since it's the biggest currency in real life and most people know about how much it's worth, it makes a useful medium for comparison. Obviously the US of A, being split between several different west coast states, New York and Jersey, Menelmacar, and others I don't know of, no longer has the US Dollar as a major currency.

Tropisch Eiland: It's not zero to gravtech in 34,000 years. The Elves in Tolkien canon, according to The Silmarillion, had (at their peak in Beleriand during the First Age) a technological culture roughly equivalent to late mediaeval times (their thaumaturgical culture was, of course, much more advanced).

Admittedly I'd expect them to have troublesome mortal and moriquendi minority ethnicities, but have you looked at the UN report on Menelmacar?

"Crime -- especially youth-related -- is totally unknown, thanks to the all-pervasive police force and progressive social policies in education and welfare."

I'd suppose that among the Noldorin majority, youth crime would probably be about the only crime they have.

As for AIDS, there's nothing in that factbook saying they don't have AIDS. It does in fact say that some do have it. However, in the Tolkien canon elves cannot be affected by disease, so it's probably within the non-elven minority.

Menelmacar: I have a sudden image of some doddering ancient Elf in Valinor saying "In my day, we didn't have any of these fancy plasma rifle things. We had swords and we were glad to have them! And we licked the orcs off the road for breakfast, too!"

Ever since reading it, I've been struck by the idea that Michael Swanwick's The Iron Dragon's Daughter is what's really going on in Menelmacar. :)

Hmmm... Nothing impressive. Apparent problem in using the USD for comparisons if the US has been broken up and effectively conquered. If the dollar has not been obliterated, it is surely devalued. Tends to happen when your currency is fiat.

Either you do not control the US, thus allowing the USD to exist in its current state, or Menelmacari has some of the poorest citizens on this side of the planet.
Quite so. As Tsaraine said, however, it is meant entirely as a medium for comparison of purchasing power, and not as an actual working exchange rate.

Interestingly, the .mm internet code is owned by Burma.
Indeed. Edited... now using .em, for Empire of Menelmacar.

~Siri

Menelmacar: I have a sudden image of some doddering ancient Elf in Valinor saying "In my day, we didn't have any of these fancy plasma rifle things. We had swords and we were glad to have them! And we licked the orcs off the road for breakfast, too!"

In Aelosia this happen all the time, the old Sindarin always complaining about the use of high tech weaponry. But they acknowledge the fact that it's impossible to destroy a tank with bows and arrows, and that swords, even if they're legendary, can't harm mechs. I'm sure that in Menelmacar is the same situation.

OOC: I find most of this to be acurate. Damn, I need to make a Thelasi Factbook.

Hmmm... Nothing impressive. Apparent problem in using the USD for comparisons if the US has been broken up and effectively conquered. If the dollar has not been obliterated, it is surely devalued. Tends to happen when your currency is fiat.

Well, I ignore the partition, as it happens in 2017 (and the fact that it happens in the future is supported by Siri's statement in that thread that "This happens in the future? Yay! That means my meeting w/Dubya in Texas is still on!", or words to that extend) and I RP in 2004. I do acknowledge the fact that you can either accept or ignore all of Menelmacar, but not "pick and choose." So, when I RP in 2017+, believe me, I'll accept the partition.

Menelmacar: I have a sudden image of some doddering ancient Elf in Valinor saying "In my day, we didn't have any of these fancy plasma rifle things. We had swords and we were glad to have them! And we licked the orcs off the road for breakfast, too!"
"And to get anywhere, we had to walk several [elven equivalent of miles] in the snow, uphill- both ways. That's the way it was, and we liked it!"
:D

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

Quite so. As Tsaraine said, however, it is meant entirely as a medium for comparison of purchasing power, and not as an actual working exchange rate.

If that is the case, then you should know that the USD has been dropping figuratively like a rock. The purchasing power of the USD, therefore, has dropped as well, in comparison to the global economy.

I'd humbly recommend making adjustments or using a more stable currency like the Euro.

I am also curious why the data was collected in year 2004, when you have listed that the US is under Menelmacari control. According to Syskeyia, that happened in year 2017. Lack of funds for Statistics Menelmacar?

I do acknowledge the fact that you can either accept or ignore all of Menelmacar, but not "pick and choose." So, when I RP in 2017+, believe me, I'll accept the partition.

I'm here to argue about some of the points of the factsheet which do not make sense in accordance to other parts of her factsheet, as well as some other interesting points. I'd much rather not argue about the issue which you brought up. It will cause all kinds of new problems and probably end up in a flame match if anything.

- Sovy K.

Jesus, what doesnt this place have? Billions and billions of people with no resource problem, apparently no AIDS problem, no mention of crime, zero to grav lift ships in ~34000 years when it took humans hundreds of thousands of years to move past fire as the biggest thing. Hell, what DOESNT this place have, besides problems? Can anyone imagine a more powerful/perfect place?

TE Lawrence! Your first post. I'm so proud.

It's like a grandfather, watching his grandson get his first set of dentures....

Quite so. As Tsaraine said, however, it is meant entirely as a medium for comparison of purchasing power, and not as an actual working exchange rate.

If that is the case, then you should know that the USD has been dropping figuratively like a rock. The purchasing power of the USD, therefore, has dropped as well, in comparison to the global economy.
So? Every currency has its weak periods... the euro, for example, plunged like a stone for several months right out of the starting gate - and it was, in fact, ridiculous amounts of buying on the part of the Americans that saved it. But the US$ is, regardless, still the standard in international trade. Oil, gold, most commodities, all trade in US dollars. And the purchasing power of the US dollar really hasn't changed much, and most of the world has a pretty good idea how much purchasing power it has. You can still buy more or less the same thing with a dollar that you could buy five years ago. Having inflation around one percent or so does that. Further, OOCly linking it to a different currency would completely negate the point of linking it to an RL currency in the first place - for a medium of comparison. Everyone else and their dog compares their national currency to the US dollar, so it would do precisely zero good for me to suddenly decide I wanted to link mine to the euro.

I hope I've clarified adequately. ;)

~Siri

Quite so. As Tsaraine said, however, it is meant entirely as a medium for comparison of purchasing power, and not as an actual working exchange rate.

If that is the case, then you should know that the USD has been dropping figuratively like a rock. The purchasing power of the USD, therefore, has dropped as well, in comparison to the global economy.
So? Every currency has its weak periods... the euro, for example, plunged like a stone for several months right out of the starting gate - and it was, in fact, ridiculous amounts of buying on the part of the Americans that saved it. But the US$ is, regardless, still the standard in international trade. Oil, gold, most commodities, all trade in US dollars. And the purchasing power of the US dollar really hasn't changed much, and most of the world has a pretty good idea how much purchasing power it has. You can still buy more or less the same thing with a dollar that you could buy five years ago. Having inflation around one percent or so does that. Further, OOCly linking it to a different currency would completely negate the point of linking it to an RL currency in the first place - for a medium of comparison. Everyone else and their dog compares their national currency to the US dollar, so it would do precisely zero good for me to suddenly decide I wanted to link mine to the euro.

I hope I've clarified adequately. ;)

~Siri

So? Every currency has its weak periods... the euro, for example, plunged like a stone for several months right out of the starting gate - and it was, in fact, ridiculous amounts of buying on the part of the Americans that saved it.

The Euro was also overvalued. The French companies were saying that the Euro was too strong in when the Euro was valued at $1.17 USD. As well, just because a currency is 'weak' does not mean that it needs saving. An example would be the Australian and Canadian currencies. Or, if you want a more extreme example, the Turkish Lira.

And the purchasing power of the US dollar really hasn't changed much, and most of the world has a pretty good idea how much purchasing power it has. You can still buy more or less the same thing with a dollar that you could buy five years ago.

If you were buying things in the US, that would be mostly correct. However, importing things from other countries will be more expensive. Exporting things will be cheaper. Economics 101. However, buying things from other countries will cost you more now. Usually, this is met with adequate adjustments in inflation which will be probably kick into effect next year if the dollar continues to plummet.

As well, it is BS how the US measures inflation. College education for your kids, food and medication have been increasing. Computers, cars, entertainment are the only industries offsetting the inflation to make it look minute. The poor and middle class are going to be experiencing the crunch.

Here is a link.

http://www.agitprop.org.au/nowar/20020415_ogi_switch_trade_currency.htm

Russia is thinking about doing much the same, if they have not done so already.

Everyone else and their dog compares their national currency to the US dollar, so it would do precisely zero good for me to suddenly decide I wanted to link mine to the euro.

Close trading partners to the US do so, that far I will agree. However, I have pointed it out in my previous post, you should either make adjustments to take in account for the US dollar plummeting, or use a more stable currency.

- Sovy K.

EDIT:

However, looking back, I can see that it has been partially adjusted for. I was under the impression that the MC was pegged at $2.50 USD...

AC, thats a little scary.

But as for Siri's factbook, she did say that she got gravships about 1000 years ago, so apparently she isnt using Tolkien's Medieval elves. Therefore I believe that she's using what's good about them and dumping the rest. Fine, ok. But then how does she expect to fit over 2.25 BILLION people in ~9,700,000 km^2, when China has terrible crowding problems with 1.2 billion people in ~9,550,000 km^2? Especially when Menelmacar is an archipelago of mountains, heavily forested islands, deserts and some grassy plains-like islands?

Also, I stated that Menelmacar has no AIDS problem. Ok, lets assume that elves dont get AIDS. 3% humans out of 2.25 billion is 67500000 humans. Only 1125 have AIDS in a world where the disease runs rampant? And thats not including the other minority groups, either.

115 TRILLION USD as a GDP. Numbers only dreamed of by the entire real world. And a per capita of 51340 USD. The RL US has a per capita of roughly 34000, and that may be high.

Also, I noticed that, after a little math, there is an airport for every 247 km^2. Maybe a bit exessive, and have you seen the size of most airports?


Finally, I guess I just like more realism in my games, be it RPing or whatever. Maybe thats why I reacted harshly to this...oh, lets say outlandish factbook. But seriously. Is there any way for any nation to even try to compete with this country? I thought game mods were supposed to be fair in their gaming as well as their modding...But I guess not.

Can anyone imagine a more powerful/perfect place?

Heh... I think Siri's found a potential new sig quote.

And yes, certainly the former is no problem, the latter is conceivable too.

But as for Siri's factbook, she did say that she got gravships about 1000 years ago, so apparently she isnt using Tolkien's Medieval elves.
I was unaware that the elves were so stupid they couldn't develop technology. Perhaps I was wrong?
Therefore I believe that she's using what's good about them and dumping the rest. Fine, ok. But then how does she expect to fit over 2.25 BILLION people in ~9,700,000 km^2, when China has terrible crowding problems with 1.2 billion people in ~9,550,000 km^2? Especially when Menelmacar is an archipelago of mountains, heavily forested islands, deserts and some grassy plains-like islands?

Menelmacar has an empire. They presumably pack off a lot of the excess to their vassal states.

Also, I stated that Menelmacar has no AIDS problem. Ok, lets assume that elves dont get AIDS. 3% humans out of 2.25 billion is 67500000 humans. Only 1125 have AIDS in a world where the disease runs rampant? And thats not including the other minority groups, either.

Quite likely, given that the human minority would most likely adopt many of the practises of their hosts, including, monogomous sex lives (which, according the the limited data available is quite normal among elves - indeed it's quite rare for them to continue to be interested in such things after having a few children). I also suspect that protected sex would be widely promoted to that segment of the population. This also discounts the possibility of the humans having relations with the elves - I discount it because it is incerdibly rare in the Tolkien canon, but it is nevertheless possible.

I was unaware that the elves were so stupid they couldn't develop technology. Perhaps I was wrong?

Consider state of technological development of the Noldorin Kingdoms at their height during the First Age. Swords and bows.

Then consider the state of technological development of Imladris and Lothlorien at the end of the Third Age. Swords and bows. The 2nd and 3rd ages alone account for more than six thousand years - in six thousand years RL humans progressed from the development of Writing to the Internet. From using muscle power as the basis of industry to harnessing the power of the atom.

Also considering that pollution and the destruction of the natural environment are anathema in Tolkien's elf-culture, it's a bit of a puzzler to see how elves ever got through the Industrial age.

My 2 OOC cents.

Being technologically stagnate doesn't make development impossible, the egyptian Middle kingdom lasted 2686-2160bce, five hundred twenty odd years, with much the same technology, making very little progress, yet between 1484 and 2004 we've made rather vast progress. Your argument lacks validity, simply because they did not significantly advance, does not mean they are incapable of it.

Better critisims that can be levelled at the Menelmacari history (sorry Siri) would be:

- What caused this technological development? To improve living conditions - I think not, the elves in LotR looked pretty happy to me (excluding the whole crazed miar planning to murder them. To face an enemy with the same level of technology - Again I think not. To produce superior trading goods? Again, it's questionable. A soloution to this would be demand from the elves themselves for superior goods, novelty after all, must be important to anyone living that long.

- Why hasn't Menelmacari technology leaked out to men much? The existance of airfloaty ships ought to have at the very least shut the likes of the Catholic Church up when they tried to critisise new ideas, and stimulated technological development (knowing powered flight was possible would have stimulated research into it greatly).

- How do the Menelmacari shift adherents to outdated scientific theories? In RL it tends to help that they retire eventually. But with elves, shouldn't you have at least some stubborn fringe of physicists ranting about the ether somewhere? Even though most would eventually change occupation, shouldn't some need to be fired?

Being technologically stagnate doesn't make development impossible, the egyptian Middle kingdom lasted 2686-2160bce, five hundred twenty odd years, with much the same technology, making very little progress, yet between 1484 and 2004 we've made rather vast progress. Your argument lacks validity, simply because they did not significantly advance, does not mean they are incapable of it.

Better critisims that can be levelled at the Menelmacari history (sorry Siri) would be:

- What caused this technological development? To improve living conditions - I think not, the elves in LotR looked pretty happy to me (excluding the whole crazed miar planning to murder them. To face an enemy with the same level of technology - Again I think not. To produce superior trading goods? Again, it's questionable. A soloution to this would be demand from the elves themselves for superior goods, novelty after all, must be important to anyone living that long.
Quite so. More or less what I was thinking.

- Why hasn't Menelmacari technology leaked out to men much? The existance of airfloaty ships ought to have at the very least shut the likes of the Catholic Church up when they tried to critisise new ideas, and stimulated technological development (knowing powered flight was possible would have stimulated research into it greatly).
Clarke's Law probably came into effect there. In all likelihood, the Catholic Church probably blamed it on Satanic magicks and witchcraft and the like. They weren't exactly known for being logical in their arguments. Menelmacar was also rather isolationist throughout this period. If you're referring to the journey of the Randir, she visited more NS nations than RL nations... I haven't fleshed out yet exactly where she went, but Tsaraine was a stop on the trip.

- How do the Menelmacari shift adherents to outdated scientific theories? In RL it tends to help that they retire eventually. But with elves, shouldn't you have at least some stubborn fringe of physicists ranting about the ether somewhere? Even though most would eventually change occupation, shouldn't some need to be fired?
If they need to be fired, they get fired. ;) Outright proof of something does tend to change minds, though, with the exception of the most hidebound crackpots. (eg. the Flat Earth Society)

~Siri

But then how does she expect to fit over 2.25 BILLION people in ~9,700,000 km^2, when China has terrible crowding problems with 1.2 billion people in ~9,550,000 km^2? Especially when Menelmacar is an archipelago of mountains, heavily forested islands, deserts and some grassy plains-like islands?
Eh... China still has all that stuff too, given that their population isn't anywhere near evenly distributed. The colonial population is included in this number as well, though, given that excluding it would easily be considered puppetwank.

115 TRILLION USD as a GDP. Numbers only dreamed of by the entire real world. And a per capita of 51340 USD. The RL US has a per capita of roughly 34000, and that may be high.
And Luxembourg's is over 48K per capita, with nowhere near Menelmacar's industrial and financial base. Further, technological advancement tends to create wealth. So, it is possible.

Also, I noticed that, after a little math, there is an airport for every 247 km^2. Maybe a bit exessive, and have you seen the size of most airports?
Gravitic craft require less in the way of area, given they're VTOL. It's likely only international airports, like in Vinyatirion, say, would actually have conventional runways, to accommodate the airlines of other nations. Even still, number of airports is a minor statistic, and easily enough modified downwards rather a ways.

Menelmacar was also rather isolationist throughout this period.

How long did this isolationist period last? With my understanding of elves, they were mostly a reserved bunch. Isolationism has always served as a detriment to countries in the areas of technological development. Cases like China and Japan are where countries and regions adopted an isolationist stance, and thus, ended up being behind the rest of the world. Europe was a breeding ground for competition, mostly in the form of war, and therefore technological innovation was amongst the most highest in the world. Another example I could put out is capitalism and monopolies. As you should know, monopolies usually end up jacking up the price, and technological advancements is stagnated, as opposed to a highly competitive market place where everybody is striving to get ahead of one another.

If they need to be fired, they get fired. Outright proof of something does tend to change minds,

As one gets older, one does get wiser, usually. They also get more stubborn, as a trip to the local old folks home will tell you. Many of the older people hold outlandish values that we reject in today's generation.

Not saying anything about the elves, and their long lives, but I was always under the impression that they were largely a stubborn bunch.

And Luxembourg's is over 48K per capita, with nowhere near Menelmacar's industrial and financial base. Further, technological advancement tends to create wealth. So, it is possible.

It is possible, but silly if you think about how technologically advanced Menelmacar is, yet the average Menelmacari citizen is barely making more wealth than one living in Luxembourg. I would be expecting that the per capital were more along the lines of a million or heck, two million for a society as advanced as Menelmacar. If a gravcar were commercially viable in Menelmacar, I am pretty sure they would cost much more than $14,999 USD, and more along the lines of $599,999 USD just for the econo-car.

I'd humbly reccomend making appropriate changes to take in account for this.

I'd like to add a minor point, but technological advancements do not create wealth. In the best case scenario, they streamline the production of wealth. Although, this is what I am imagining what you mean by.

Gravitic craft require less in the way of area, given they're VTOL.

You should rename them 'gravports' to avoid confusion. Much the same reason why helipads are not included for the same reason when people are counting up the number of airports.

- Sovy K.

In all likelihood, the Catholic Church probably blamed it on Satanic magicks and witchcraft and the like. They weren't exactly known for being logical in their arguments.

Whoa whoa whoa, why you got to be ragging on the Church? The Catholics have always had an interest in science, despite what common rhetoric might say. Ever heard of Nicholas Copurnicus? Or George Mendel? Both were churchmen who contributed to the world of science.

Actually, there were more than that, but the Catholic church also encouraged studying the natural world in the twelfth century as another means to salvation. And I don't know where you're getting your information, but they were quite logical in their arguments. Geocentrism should actually be blamed on the Greeks, who looked for heliocentrism, but failed to detect parallax because their instruments were imprecise; the Church believed that the "ancients" were quite intelligent and they knew what they were doing, so they encouraged people to believe them. The church wasn't as ignorant as they're presented to be. That viewpoint most likely came from Protestants, who have always been at odds with the Catholic church, at least in Europe.

OOC pointless comment: Holy crap, Feo's back. :shock:

Airports, ok. I can see that happening.

As for her tech, no elves arent dumb, but when the gatherings of a community were formed 34000 years ago, do you think they would have anti-grav technology, enormus shipyards, an empire and the most advanced nation on eath in 33000 years of existance?

Is Luxemburg really a good example? Menelmacar, with it's hyper advanced tech, massive empire, huge country and wealth of just about everything, versus a little known landlocked European nation thats one of the smallest countries in existance that has less than a million people?

OOC pointless comment: Holy crap, Feo's back. :shock:

Since when does this nation have any renown?!!

As for her tech, no elves arent dumb, but when the gatherings of a community were formed 34000 years ago, do you think they would have anti-grav technology, enormus shipyards, an empire and the most advanced nation on eath in 33000 years of existance?

Plausibly? No. Not looking back at human evolution and not even taking into account that the elves had a head start on humans. We're just now trying to develop the idea, and there's really no reason to assume elves would have the same motivations as humans.

Innovation because they live so long is also not plausible. Just because you live for so long does not mean you're going to get bored so easily, nor does it mean you have a great memory. In fact, one would think that the "old" ideas of gravity and geocentrism would have stayed longer with the elves since it's generations that change the minds of society rather than the people themselves. The people of previous generations tend to stay with the ideas they were brought up on and are usually slow to accept new ideas. Since elves live for so long, it's a good conjecture to say that they would be more stagnant rather than innovative.

My third plausibility problem is that Menelmacar's technology didn't leak out or spur humans to create what they have sooner. She also never really interacted with the world, even in more recent history. It would be more plausible if her technology were more recently developed than if the Menelmacari have just plain had it for so long. Of course, if I bring in my second point, they really shouldn't have technology past what they had before. Maybe some improvements, but not antigrav ships.

The church wasn't as ignorant as they're presented to be. That viewpoint most likely came from Protestants, who have always been at odds with the Catholic church, at least in Europe.

I <3 you longtime.

The church wasn't as ignorant as they're presented to be. That viewpoint most likely came from Protestants, who have always been at odds with the Catholic church, at least in Europe.

I <3 you longtime.

You're not from Full Metal Jacket.

I should expand my argument about religion, politics, and such in Europe, but I'm too lazy at the moment.

Hmmm? Going to make a reply, Siri? Or do I take it from your silence that my points stand?

- Sovy K.

Personally, I would take the silence to mean that Siri is asleep, or doing other things involving what I like to call 'real life.'

Personally, I would take the silence to mean that Siri is asleep, or doing other things involving what I like to call 'real life.'

Seconded.

Personally, I would take the silence to mean that Siri is asleep, or doing other things involving what I like to call 'real life.'

There is also this thing called 'I posted my response, comments and suggestions three days ago'. And a quick search says that she was posted today. And the day before. And the day before that.

If she is busy, she could post a little quip about that fact and respond to my questions and refute my statements at a later date.

A peice of friendly advice, do not patronize people, especially if they are in a meaninful debate.

- Sovy K.

Actually, I would hardly call this a "meaningful debate" since it is over a poorly written factsheet. Secondly, in my experience, if she hasn't posted for a few days, she's ignoring the thread, especially if she's posting in others. This normally happens when her opponents have a point of some sort.

Well, I'd still like for her to at least acknowledge we have a point.

First off, go AC, if it wasn't for George Mendel, I wouldn't have the job I do right now.

From what I understood about elves, which is my poor understanding of them since I, racist against them, they would rather sit down and contemplate existence than build massive machinary. But people have been beating this point to a pulp, and her response is the same, so we move on to other topics, she'll ignore too.

But, I feel, people give her alot of crap because she started off godmodding, then had to come up with some explanantion for it. If she wants to godmode, let her, and stop trying to force the point. It's stupid to see these arguments come up time and time again. She wants to have an unbeatable empire, let her, no big.

The idea that humans wouldn't be reverse engineering that technology though, is not a good one, but then again, out there, how many nations have this tech, and at ridiculous levels, This isn't real people, some of us wish to have more realistic nations, but this forum is a sci fi/fantasy one, which is our imagination.

Let Siri have her masive empire, you don't like it, just ignore her, which is what she does to the people she doesn't like.

I don't want to post here, but Sovy forced me.
This isn't real people, some of us wish to have more realistic nations, but this forum is a sci fi/fantasy one, which is our imagination.
Sorry Houde, I love you, but you are wrong wrong wrong wrong.

This was meant to be a political sim. It became "fantasy/sci-fi" when people that are too stupid to understand politics brought in their vampires and werewolves and brutal rape.

Sure it's fine to have a few crazy things in your nation, but don't just pull things out of your ass and expect people to play along with you. Especially when you use horrible logic to back up your garbage. There are plenty of other RP forums out there for people who prefer fantasy over politics.

Let Siri have her masive empire, you don't like it, just ignore her, which is what she does to the people she doesn't like.
Oh, ignoring people isn't just for people you dislike. it's also for people who godmoded their way to the top. :D

And I see the forums are just as buggy as ever. Heh.

Augh. This is the fifth time I've tried posting this. :evil:

Honestly, if Siri (or any of us for that matter) had to rationalize and explain every single facet and detail of Menelmacar and its society, she would hardly have time for anything else, such as sleep, eating, or work.

I'm sure Siri meant this as a small description of her nation, but you can hardly expect her to explain every little bit of something that is based in fiction and whose figures are loosely centered around numbers and stats generated by an internet-based political game.

If you really want an explanation on why things are the way they are in Menelmacar, its fiction. Make-believe. Pretend. Use your imagination.

Since this thread seems to be off-topic and what not (ie. no longer useful to dicussion), I'm gonna go ahead and get off-topic as well.

Who the hell is Feoras?

*notes the "retired moderator" status, the old nation age, and the rather miniscule post count*
(I consider anything less than my post count to be small.......considering that I don't post much)

Fill me in people.

In fact, one would think that the "old" ideas of gravity and geocentrism would have stayed longer with the elves since it's generations that change the minds of society rather than the people themselves

Elves, at least Tolkien Elves, are extrordinarily arrogant, therefore they would be hard pressed to change their ideals.

I find it more likely that the race of man would become technologically advanced far more swiftly than the elves.

Feoras is an old moderator that pulled her weight and even the weight of a few others before getting frustrated with the system and the corruption of the other mods and quitting.

In fact, one would think that the "old" ideas of gravity and geocentrism would have stayed longer with the elves since it's generations that change the minds of society rather than the people themselves

Elves, at least Tolkien Elves, are extrordinarily arrogant, therefore they would be hard pressed to change their ideals.

I find it more likely that the race of man would become technologically advanced far more swiftly than the elves.

Feoras is an old moderator that pulled her weight and even the weight of a few others before getting frustrated with the system and the corruption of the other mods and quitting.

Honestly, folks, I'm a little dismayed by this. The cultural attitude towards technological advancement was addressed. Menelmacar is a successor state to Eregion, which tended to advocate such things. The Menelmacari view was that Eregion's mistake was not in seeking greater mastery over science and magic, but in allowing the proverbial fox into the henhouse, in the form of Sauron. So far, they seem to be right. To address the point made by Feoras, it would be more plausible if these advances were recent, that directly contradicts the point made that Elves would probably advance more slowly than humans, which I don't dispute - thirty thousand years from iron blades to floaty ships is pretty damn slow, all things considered.

And no, Vlad, I *don't* 'pull things out of my ass', if you actually RPed instead of bitching about alleged incidents of moderator corruption, you might note my technology is: 1) consistent, 2) explained at great length, and 3) more or less all the same stuff I had at the beginning. People know what to expect when they RP with Menelmacar... which brings me to my next point. Feoras, Houde, you whine about my ships and my empire and technologically-advanced Elves now, but you didn't seem to mind them much when they were saving your asses.

Houde, your capital city was burned to the ground by mutant lizards and the rest of your nation would have been next if not for Menelmacari troops. Feoras, hon, I can't even count the number of times I've backed you up. The Grenzlander invasion, your civil war after civil war after civil war... Hell, you were given a Menelmacari gravship, and to this day there's nobody else who can make that boast. So, before you whine about what Menelmacar's got, look at your own national histories, the things you've accepted when it was convenient, and kindly stow the hypocrisy.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/sirithil/sirithilnosfeanor.gifLady Sirithil nos Fëanor
Elentári of the Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar
"We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. We will see freedom's victory."
~US President George W. Bush
We Love the Iraqi Information Minister (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com)
Clicky-clicky!

Well, I'm fine with Menelmacari tech. Heck, the Mornahasse helped save my Parliament from cola-worshipping terrorists once. :D

God bless,

The Republic of Syskeyia

So, before you whine about what Menelmacar's got, look at your own national histories, the things you've accepted when it was convenient, and kindly stow the hypocrisy.

Your gravships never saved my country, can I whine yet?

Honestly, if Siri (or any of us for that matter) had to rationalize and explain every single facet and detail of Menelmacar and its society, she would hardly have time for anything else, such as sleep, eating, or work.

Then don't get into the Sci-Fi/Magical RP business so you do not have to explain every little problem and have a ready-made explanation for it. Furthermore, I have backed up my criticisms with suggestions.

If you really want an explanation on why things are the way they are in Menelmacar, its fiction. Make-believe. Pretend. Use your imagination.

I did. I started to run into problems with the number of illogical statements that are inherent to just her factsheet.

To address the point made by Feoras, it would be more plausible if these advances were recent, that directly contradicts the point made that Elves would probably advance more slowly than humans, which I don't dispute - thirty thousand years from iron blades to floaty ships is pretty damn slow, all things considered.

Humans back in the Tolkien days were, from my understanding, were equals to the elves, if not more technologically advance. Therefore, man would have developped gravships and enlightened the rest of the world, would they not?

you might note my technology is: 1) consistent,

Consistent? At what? Being unexplainable and impossible, because that is the only consistency I can see. Care to elaborate?

2) explained at great length

Siri... Showing a picture stating that liquid helium spinning around in a little tube does not create anti-gravity waves. You see, there are these rules called the Laws of Thermodynamics. There is also this nice little law called the Conservation of Energy and Matter, and while we are at it, the law of Gravity.

While these laws may not be applicable to your nation, they are to many others.

Oh, while we are at it, try and explain the lattest teserect space-folding technology you have out now. That would sure give the rest of us a good chuckle.

3) more or less all the same stuff I had at the beginning.

Uhm, funny, I remembered you going about this Einstein-Rosen bridge a while back, then this latest teserect thing, with space-folding engines...

Erm, okay then. :roll:

Now, here comes the point we have all been waiting for...

Feoras, Houde, you whine about my ships and my empire and technologically-advanced Elves now, but you didn't seem to mind them much when they were saving your asses.

So now we are mixing OOC debate with IC history? Is that what you are getting at here? Because, from my understanding that is not a very good thing. Even worse to come out of a 'Game Moderator'.

Houde, your capital city was burned to the ground by mutant lizards and the rest of your nation would have been next if not for Menelmacari troops.

Another example of using IC blackmail in order to get what you want now? How... dispicable.

Feoras, hon, I can't even count the number of times I've backed you up. The Grenzlander invasion, your civil war after civil war after civil war... Hell, you were given a Menelmacari gravship, and to this day there's nobody else who can make that boast.

More blackmail now? Sorry, but I don't bite. Find another pond to fish in, because we are all out of stock of bottomsuckers here.

So, before you whine about what Menelmacar's got, look at your own national histories, the things you've accepted when it was convenient, and kindly stow the hypocrisy.

Never heard about the rewritting history? You sure could use a bit of some rewriting yourself. Oh, wait, quick point to make, those people who you are trying to ICly blackmail you, you might want to ask them if they still acknowledge you ICly before trying such a stunt again. Cause, you know, you'd look silly willy. Infact, you would either way when somebody calls you on.

Well, I'm fine with Menelmacari tech. Heck, the Mornahasse helped save my Parliament from cola-worshipping terrorists once.

Your comment is much like an uninitialized variable; NULL.

- Sovy K.

That post was:

-lame
-pointless
-stupid

This is free-form RP. No rules. Ignore a great RPer if you want.
Siri, great factbook. I wish I had the time to make one that good... maybe I could just edit yours...

Alright, Siri, I talked to Jared and no, I don't hate you. But you also don't know my opinions about my own country, so don't you DARE lecture me about hypocrisy. I could argue a lot more with you if I chose, but I don't. I made a few comments about the plausibility of your factsheet. I know I have problems with my own country's history and I constantly try to fix them, but I also don't think you were fair in not answering Sovy because he was having an actual conversation with you and despite what AC's been saying, I don't think it's fair for you to blame the Catholic Church like you did. If you had said something more along the lines of "well, we avoided them for the most part and they thought it was a sign from God" or something less negative, I wouldn't have cared.

I'm not quite sure what Vlad's problem or anyone else's problem with you is, but mine was that you just left in the middle of RPs when people were depending on you for a post. You scenelocked them. It would be nice if you could have at least said, "I'm sorry, but I'm not interested in posting in this anymore," but instead, you just left. The same thing with this. If you had said, "Hey, regardless of which one of us is right, I really don't feel like debating this anymore," I would have let it go.

Now, I'm leaving this thread because I really don't care. I, for one, think that a person should give a little more thought into their factsheet, particularly when the nation is so old and the player has been playing for so long, but that's just my opinion.

First of all, kudos to Alpha Centauri for the NULL joke.

This is free-form RP.

Correct, this is freeform RP.

No rules.

Incorrect, there are an implicit set of OOC rules one must follow during freeform RPing. Otherwise, you'll end up with scenarios like the Russian Forces Vs. Automagfreek.

Here is a bit of advise, since you are new around here. Substantiated flames are frowned upon. Unsubstantiated flames, the ones that you wrote out against me, are not only frowned upon but you are usually issued a warning.

And since I am realllllyyyy nice.

maybe I could just edit yours...

www.cia.gov in the World Factbook section. That is where her factbook is based off of.

- Sovy K.

And no, Vlad, I *don't* 'pull things out of my ass',
Oh, no. You do quite a good job at attempting to justify things that make no sense.

if you actually RPed instead of bitching about alleged incidents of moderator corruption
I RP. I RP a lot. Just not here anymore. ;)

I see. Anyone who dares question your infallibility as a mod is obviously just bitching and has no foundation for his claims at all. Pardon me for trying to help the community. :roll:

you might note my technology is: 1) consistent,
it is consistent, but that doesn't justify its existence.

2) explained at great length
I could explain at great length how Teletubbies live in my basement and feed off rat carcasses, but that doesn't make it true.

Feoras, Houde, you whine about my ships and my empire and technologically-advanced Elves now, but you didn't seem to mind them much when they were saving your asses.
Hindsight is always 20/20. Everyone does stupid things that they wish they hadn't. Just because one couldn't see the godmoding when it was happening doesn't mean they can't realize their mistakes later.

Well, I'm fine with Menelmacari tech. Heck, the Mornahasse helped save my Parliament from cola-worshipping terrorists once. :D
Heh heh.

. So, before you whine about what Menelmacar's got, look at your own national histories, the things you've accepted when it was convenient, and kindly stow the hypocrisy

Clarke's Law probably came into effect there. In all likelihood, the Catholic Church probably blamed it on Satanic magicks and witchcraft and the like.

Perhaps, perhaps not. IMHO, if one starts a human nation in the Tolkien timeline, they can easily claim the same techlevel you have.

Which is one other reason why i prefer to use NS stats rather than claims: You can use every f*cking universe you want to *claim* everything you want ;)

complain complain complain. It's a factbook for christ's sake, not a debate on siri's techbase, culture, society, politics or work as a mod. Read it for what it is instead of taking cheap shots at one of the less pretentious senior players.
and like Rez said, claims are fine, stats are better. the fact that menelmacar in game terms is old enough to claim all this fails to sink in does it kiddies?
Just symptomatic of the people who play this game a lot of the time. anyway, nice work siri, gogo putting the effort to make this in.

This has been a JLoNS post. Go about your business.

Siri, I wasn't saying anything bad about you, and Sovy, it wasn't blackmail, it was an OOC agreement for her to come in and back me up like she did. It wasn't just mutant lizards though, it was a host of mutant creatures!

All hail the madness of VonGlump, who has died. *takes off hat for VonGlump*

Gotta admit though, she did write a good scene there, and it had to be godmode, no one else wanted to back me up, I got overrun.

Granted, I was Rping by myself at that time, but hey, I can overrun myself if I want too.

Stop looking at me like that.

But, what I think pissed people off mainly, was the fact that you would leave Rp's in the middle, scenelocking them. Granted, this has abosolutely nothing to do with your factsheet, so I'll leave with that statement.

menelmacar in game terms is old enough

Uhm... some of the people that are making comments here are older than Siri. Feoras has a nation older than mine and you can see how much older I am than her.

You wanna see another really great factbook?

Check out Demoness' : http://www.geocities.com/anaraquinn/demoness

the fact that menelmacar in game terms is old enough to claim all this fails to sink in does it kiddies?

She has been claiming it from the beginning. She even admitted to that in this thread.

Houde:

Right-oh!

- Sovy K.

Strange, I thought Roseway posted in here...

- Sovy K.

Feoras is an old moderator that pulled her weight and even the weight of a few others before getting frustrated with the system and the corruption of the other mods and quitting.

Hm. That's news to me. When I read her retirement note in the Mod Forum, she said it was because she didn't have the free-time to continue modding.

But, I'm sure you're right. It had to be that the other 3 Forum Mods were corrupt. What with the thread-locking and all.

This was meant to be a political sim.

I thought it was a quirky little advert for a book written by an Aussie.

OOC: No mention of yours truly?

I'm hurt. Deeply, truly hurt. Nice job.

Humans back in the Tolkien days were, from my understanding, were equals to the elves, if not more technologically advance. Therefore, man would have developped gravships and enlightened the rest of the world, would they not?


If my memory serves, there were various human cultures, but the only ones who that would really be particularly true of would be the Númenóreans, and thanks to Sauron, they were royally curb stomped and (mostly) obliterated, with the exception of some of their descendant cultures, such as Gondor, and the Black Númenóreans, such as the Mouth of Sauron (AKA The Lieutenant of the Tower of Barad-dûr. Interestingly enough, he's either a ringbearer - the Nine did not wear their rings - or a distant relative of Aragorn.), and probably the Witch King of Angmar, and with the possible exception of the Black Númenóreans (who are, mercifully, rare), they were never as powerful as they once were after the destruction of Númenor.

She is however right, a human culture with a technological/scientific mindset would likely easily supass Menelmacari technology if they'd been around as long (and had an enviroment with similarly loose laws of physics as NS has.)

"How appropriate for a mod to god"

[hugs of support to Xen and Alpha Centuri]

OOC:

From Eru's (& Tolkien's) point of view, Menelmacar would be the very incarnation of the Noldor's corruption, for they have fallen prey to the twin evils of Magic & the Machine.

I find your statement that Menelmcar has a low birth rate curious, too. I mean, it's going up just as fast as anyone else's- in fact, ths "boom" in the Elvish population, coupled with the length of time Elves take to mature, probably means that by rights a quarter of your population should be kids.

I think you should drop your claims to the Congo, too, seeing as how you were challenged by all manner of mercenaries & suchlike it when you tried to RP it out & failed utterly to take control of the situation. Rather, you found the situation totally unmanageable from an IC point of view, so just deserted the thread, confidently informing all your opponents in the area that you had taken it over "off-camera" (actually you never said any such thing, but that appears to be what you've assumed has happened, despite the fact that you were nowhere near to pacifying the situation) .

OOC:

From Eru's (& Tolkien's) point of view, Menelmacar would be the very incarnation of the Noldor's corruption, for they have fallen prey to the twin evils of Magic & the Machine.

Eru considers magic evil? Surely you jest. Eru sent Gandalf the White back for crying out loud. And I think Tolkien's issues with technology are generally related to the poor treatment of workers during the Industrial Revolution, although I can't be certain, given that (alas) it's rather difficult to write to him these days.

I find your statement that Menelmcar has a low birth rate curious, too. I mean, it's going up just as fast as anyone else's- in fact, ths "boom" in the Elvish population, coupled with the length of time Elves take to mature, probably means that by rights a quarter of your population should be kids.

According to Tolkien, elves loose interest in procreation after having a small number of children. Fëanor holds a record in having seven.

Eru considers magic evil? Surely you jest.

Not at all. The Elves' magic is Art. It is the Enemy, whose prime concern is Domination, who is master of Magic & the Machine.

Tolkien even goes on to say that it was at Eregion that the Elves came closest to falling to aforementioned Magic & Machinery. Since Siri (hitching up her skirts & running full pelt out of Eregion whilst her grandson & the rest of the Elves there were being tortured to death by Sauron) established Menelmacar as a nation that was the natural evolution of Eregion, one can only assume that, with her being a sorceress & her greatest strength her technology, Menelmacar is pretty much the lowest the Noldor have sunk since her husband was murdering the Teleri, looting & then destroying their most treasured posessions, leaving his fellow Noldor to die lingering deaths off the coast of Middle-Earth etc. etc in the eyes of the Creator.

According to Tolkien, elves loose interest in procreation after having a small number of children.

My point was that Menelmacari Elves clearly are not, taking into account their steadily rising population, & that as a result much of Menelmacar's population will consist of juvenile or infant Elves.

Hm. That's news to me. When I read her retirement note in the Mod Forum, she said it was because she didn't have the free-time to continue modding.

But, I'm sure you're right. It had to be that the other 3 Forum Mods were corrupt. What with the thread-locking and all.

Well, seeing as I know her IRL, I think I might know better, ne? :wink:

Eru considers magic evil? Surely you jest.

Not at all. The Elves' magic is Art. It is the Enemy, whose prime concern is Domination, who is master of Magic & the Machine.
And Menelmacar has made an Art out of Magic and the Machine, which you would know if you knew anything about Menelmacar.

Tolkien even goes on to say that it was at Eregion that the Elves came closest to falling to aforementioned Magic & Machinery.
Actually, their mistake at Eregion (this is the belief of Menelmacar and also of myself OOCly) was not in delving into technology and magic, but in allowing Sauron into their fold. It was through the crafting of the great rings that the Elves came near to a Fall, and that was a work of Sauron's deceit; Siri's grandson Celebrimbor sorta-outsmarted Sauron by making the Three entirely on his own, without Sauron's tutelage and thusly without his taint. The Three were greater than the Seven and the Nine, and thusly, in my opinion, show that the Elves can not only do good things even with the sort of fields of study that you seem convinced are the sole domain of the Enemy, but that they can do them better. Granted, the One was greater than the Three, but it could be argued that the One would be nigh useless without the existence of the Seven and the Nine.

Since Siri (hitching up her skirts & running full pelt out of Eregion whilst her grandson & the rest of the Elves there were being tortured to death by Sauron)
Again you show your ignorance. As has been stated time and time again, there were a rather large number of refugees from Eregion, including Sirithil and, yes, Celebrimbor. In my timeline, Celebrimbor did fall in battle against Sauron himself, but was left for dead, barely surviving the encounter.

established Menelmacar as a nation that was the natural evolution of Eregion, one can only assume that, with her being a sorceress & her greatest strength her technology, Menelmacar is pretty much the lowest the Noldor have sunk since her husband was murdering the Teleri, looting & then destroying their most treasured posessions, leaving his fellow Noldor to die lingering deaths off the coast of Middle-Earth etc. etc in the eyes of the Creator.
I think I already addressed this point.


According to Tolkien, elves loose interest in procreation after having a small number of children.
My point was that Menelmacari Elves clearly are not, taking into account their steadily rising population, & that as a result much of Menelmacar's population will consist of juvenile or infant Elves.
Any population will steadily rise as long as resources exist to support it. Keep in mind that the population of Menelmacar has had thirty-two thousand years to grow. Most industrialized, wealthy human nations have an annual net growth rate of approximately 1%. If you assume there were only a thousand refugees from Eregion, and that the Menelmacari population averaged only a twentieth of that rate of growth - .05%, you would find that the current population of Menelmacar over its 31,800-year history should actually now be in excess of eight billion. Go on, do the math yourself.

Have a nice day, dearie.

http://www.weirdozone.0catch.com/projects/nationstates/sirithil/sirithilnosfeanor.gifLady Sirithil nos Fëanor
Elentári of the Eternal Noldorin Empire of Menelmacar
"We have known freedom's price. We have shown freedom's power. We will see freedom's victory."
~US President George W. Bush
We Love the Iraqi Information Minister (http://www.welovetheiraqiinformationminister.com)
Clicky-clicky!

Go on, do the math yourself.

Have a nice day, dearie.


Pwned. :P

Most industrialized, wealthy human nations have an annual net growth rate of approximately 1%. If you assume there were only a thousand refugees from Eregion, and that the Menelmacari population averaged only a twentieth of that rate of growth - .05%, you would find that the current population of Menelmacar over its 31,800-year history should actually now be in excess of eight billion.

Hmmm, while the exact math presented here is not wrong, I don't believe that it is entirely valid either.

The annual net growth rate is the result of the combination of the normal growth rate, immigration, normal death rate, migration, and several other "minor" factors (minor in the grand scheme of life and death). Since we're comparing elves and humans, its almost as bad as comparing apples and oranges. Each set of "species" have their own attributes to consider.

For example:

Humans breed like rabbits, but they also die like flies. Also, it must be considered that wealthy, industrialized nations do not have the highest growth rates - they actually tend to have lower growth rates than poverty striken countries. Couplesd with the fact that humans apparently never lose interest in producing off-spring, the growth rate will always be high. The only reason why there is still any room left on Earth is due to the fact that human mortality has blissfully held us back - thank God for disease and war.

Now onto elves. Elves live forever (going by what seems to be the standard given assumption), but, they "lose interest" after only 4 offspring (again, going by what seems to be the standard assumption). While the whole immortality deal seems to give elves an advantage in population size, the lack of any type of substancial growth is a definite crippling factor. In fact, (still assuming 4 offspring per elf) the growth is almost neglible, and would be instantly destroyed the moment any elf lives are lost. Hence why they don't really like to get involved in the nasty business of wars (my own assumptions based on the little literature I've read).

For a side by side comparison (for ease of visualizing both species are now baby making machines):

A human female will pop out a baby every 2 years, over a lifetime (fertile) of 20 years - offspring potential, 10

An elven female will pop out a baby every 200 years, over an infinite lifetime BUT will stop at 4 babies - offspring potential, 4

Therefore, with the explanations set forth, I conclude that your reasoning, however correct, is fundamentally unsound. I'm only doing this to claim that Rhaken Kull is not so thoroughly "pwned" as previously thought. A guy might not be dead if you haven't shot him in the head twice after he "died" :wink:

interesting point there...

i couldnt read the entire fact book.... where do you get the time to write that stuff Siri?!

Sketch: Even still, those up-to-four children are going to have children of their own, etc. etc.

Keep in mind also that the Menelmacari growth rate I estimated is still far below that of an industrialized human nation, most of which rarely have more than two children per household - the necessary amount needed to maintain the population without immigration, because the parents are going to die. Now, no matter how careful Elves are, there are going to be some that are going to die in war or in horrible gruesome accidents - which means the maintenance level is not quite zero, but it would certainly be far less than one child per household. Essentially, just about any birth generates a net growth in the population. There are numerous developing countries, especially in sub-Saharan Africa, where the net growth rate is in excess of 14 or 15%, which is where I think you'd find that maximum of 7, 8, 9, 10 children being reached most often; the estimated Menelmacari growth rate would be little more than one three-hundredth of that - which means, for every three hundred births in random shitty country "X", there is but one in Menelmacar, and for every twenty in random not-so-shitty country "Y", Menelmacar has just one.

Now, it would be an interesting study to make a serious estimate of what an Elven growth rate would actually be, barring massive apocalyptic warfare - which, admittedly, Menelmacari history hasn't had all that much of. Probable factors that would affect it would include fewer possible children per household, longer maturation times (Elves take fifty years to physically mature), cultural preferences towards less children, less often, the effect of immortality, etc. It's my guess that the rate would, nonetheless, be higher than you'd think; however, I don't have the time to really look at it in detail, so if you or anyone else is interested, I'd love to see what you've got.

~Siri

I think its simple a matter of finding the proper growth models for population. The human model is basically set, and I'm sure there's some sort of natural growth rate that is incredibly low - like natural diamond formation :wink: I'll check it out in my spare time.

<space saved for models>

And Menelmacar has made an Art out of Magic and the Machine, which you would know if you knew anything about Menelmacar.

Psh. More than a little cheatsy. To the point of...stupidity. Tolkien said that the Elves were there to distinguish between Art & Magic, & you're making them the same thing? Face it- the Valar would not approve of you. I don't see why it's such an issue that you be totally pure when you are running a Noldor nation, one consisting of Eregion's Elves- ever the most arrogant variety.

Actually, their mistake at Eregion (this is the belief of Menelmacar and also of myself OOCly) was not in delving into technology and magic, but in allowing Sauron into their fold. It was through the crafting of the great rings that the Elves came near to a Fall, and that was a work of Sauron's deceit; Siri's grandson Celebrimbor sorta-outsmarted Sauron by making the Three entirely on his own, without Sauron's tutelage and thusly without his taint. The Three were greater than the Seven and the Nine, and thusly, in my opinion, show that the Elves can not only do good things even with the sort of fields of study that you seem convinced are the sole domain of the Enemy, but that they can do them better. Granted, the One was greater than the Three, but it could be argued that the One would be nigh useless without the existence of the Seven and the Nine.

You are of course allowed your opinion. Pity that Tolkien completely disagrees.

The Enemy in succesive forms is always "naturally" concerned with sheer Domination, & so the lord of magic & machines

I'd say that's pretty clear.

Oh, & it's worth noting that the Elves were totally powerless to even use their rings whilst Sauron was around, so I wouldn't say that it [the One] was anything like useless.

Again you show your ignorance. As has been stated time and time again, there were a rather large number of refugees from Eregion, including Sirithil and, yes, Celebrimbor. In my timeline, Celebrimbor did fall in battle against Sauron himself, but was left for dead, barely surviving the encounter.

That's not so much MY ignorance so much as your interfering with the established storyline (ie Sauron takes Celebrimbor & he is tortured to death over an extended period of time). If you think people are going to go digging up every little bit of backstory you've ever written for your nation on the off-chance that something that was stated quite clearly by Tolkien has been altered totally by you, then you're sadly mistaken.

But then, from someone who thinks that having Maglor be alive is perfectly acceptable, I probably should have expected it.

I think I already addressed this point.

Not terribly adequately, but whatever.

Any population will steadily rise as long as resources exist to support it. Keep in mind that the population of Menelmacar has had thirty-two thousand years to grow. Most industrialized, wealthy human nations have an annual net growth rate of approximately 1%. If you assume there were only a thousand refugees from Eregion, and that the Menelmacari population averaged only a twentieth of that rate of growth - .05%, you would find that the current population of Menelmacar over its 31,800-year history should actually now be in excess of eight billion. Go on, do the math yourself.

Have a nice day, dearie.

I don't think just saying "Well, my nation's really old so I should have even more people in it." really cuts it. Plus you have failed to take into account the thousands of years it would take you to establish your civilisation etc. etc., & a thousand refugees is a little ambitious anyway. You've got to take into account that most would be female, too, & probably already grown & not up for re-marriage.

In any case, your nation's growth rate & population as according to NS flies in the face of your hypothesis.

Pwned :P

I don't think so. Just because she refers to people as "hon" & "dearie" in her overbearing way dosen't make her arguments any less flimsy.

But then, from someone who thinks that having Maglor be alive is perfectly acceptable, I probably should have expected it.

Could you enlighten us to when precisely he died? :D

But then, from someone who thinks that having Maglor be alive is perfectly acceptable, I probably should have expected it.

Could you enlighten us to when precisely he died? :D
It at no points is stated that Maglor is dead, just that he wanders throughout Middle-Earth.

More arguments!

This is getting fun!