NationStates Jolt Archive

Recently it dawned on me the sheer ridiculousness of the fact that Menelmacar has a higher population than my beloved Dor Daedoloth--something which sort of flies in the face of the 'conventional' good vs. evil struggle. For those of you who don't know, my character is based on the first Dark Lord of Middle Earth--Sauron's 'boss' if you will from way back before he started makin all dem shiny rings and such. When he first came to Middle Earth and delved Utumno and Angband, Morgoth made damn sure that his Orc horders outnumbered just about every other race in the region--particularly the Elves.

It just seemed... I dunno... kinda wrong that the Elves should outnumber orcs. So, I rectified the solution in what may prove to be a controversial manner: I've decided to not count orcs in my census; and have them be an unknown addition to my population. No hear me out on this--if you think about it, the technicalities of taking a census renders it utterly impossible to count orcs. By the time you count a dozen, a handful have died at the hands of their brothers over a scrap of food or a shiny trinket.

I'm not going to abuse this with an "OMG I AM T3H UB3r-URUK-MAST3r" war on everyone, its just that it seemse to stay in line with conentional wisom, and it actually allows my Uruk-Hai to be slightly less "uber" in a pitched fight. Counted in my census will be Humans, trolls, dragons, and the Uruk-Hai. Black Uruks and orcs due to their nature could not realisitcally be counted.

Let me know what you think. I'll scrap the idea if I get an overwhelming negative response, but I think it makes sense.

Makes sense to me.

I'm ok with it. :)

For most people it would be a blatent godmod. But, I doubt you would abuse that power.

evil empire => lies when dealing with other nations.

so by extention that includes the official information that is published, ie census data.

/me gets string
/me looks for a Starbucks

Actually, it would just go along with the whole good v evil storyline. But with you folks populations, does it really matter? It's all strategy at that point. But for the sake of it, go have fun with it.

/me gets string
/me looks for a Starbucks

I found a coffee shop. It's not Starbucks, but it's big enough to fit Melkor.

http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=116709

Taking into account that Menelmacar has an Über population of Noldorin, and I respond for the 1 billion (finally reached) of Sindarin elves from Doriath...it makes sense that you have a lot of orcs unaccounted for in your population.

If memory serves, according to a certain J.R.R.Tolkien the elf population never changed, If an elf died a new one was instantly born. And if no elf died, no elfs where born.

That’s why it was a good idea to give them work in the mines. :twisted:

OCC: while I'm talking to a mod, would it be possible to reload the forums, in some way?

This double post was brought to you by; Spam Inc.

It took me over 10 minutes to get this post trough. :cry:
It's just impossible to get trough, that’s why there was a double post in the first place, hope this one does not go double. Cause I ain't got the nerves to do this again.
SO SORRY IF THIS GOES DOUBLE.

Despite the problems inherent with trying to get an accurate count of the Orcs, I don't think that this is a good idea. Every dweeb, dork, simp, n00b, feeb idiot, moron, Melvin, and other vermin in the game will henceforth be able to claim the same privilege and validate the decision with, "Melkor did it so I can do it too!"

Changing the rules we have all developed in consensus over the last year for IC reasons is a prospect that should be looked upon with horror and loathing, and not committed without a damned good reason- something sadly lacking in the Black Enemy of the World's rationalization.

Since you are already roleplaying far outside the confines of Tolkein's "reality", I see no valid reason to relax the rules for the reason stated. We can't allow Melkor Unchained to get away with saying, "It's in the Silmarillion, so I should be able to do it, too" while harassing n00bs who try the same thing.

My brace of small copper coins

TEO

Despite the problems inherent with trying to get an accurate count of the Orcs, I don't think that this is a good idea. Every dweeb, dork, simp, n00b, feeb idiot, moron, Melvin, and other vermin in the game will henceforth be able to claim the same privilege and validate the decision with, "Melkor did it so I can do it too!"

Changing the rules we have all developed in consensus over the last year for IC reasons is a prospect that should be looked upon with horror and loathing, and not committed without a damned good reason- something sadly lacking in the Black Enemy of the World's rationalization.

Since you are already roleplaying far outside the confines of Tolkein's "reality", I see no valid reason to relax the rules for the reason stated. We can't allow Melkor Unchained to get away with saying, "It's in the Silmarillion, so I should be able to do it, too" while harassing n00bs who try the same thing.

My brace of small copper coins

TEO

True enough, but for the record I'm roleplaying more or less exactly to Tolkien canon, unlike Siri, who took some very large liberties with the storyline. Not to say their not justified, since it really doesnt matter at this point.

Now, some people will be quick to say "Hey now, Morgoth was chained in the Void until the end of time!" But indeed it was foretold in the Silmarillion [or implied, at least] that Morgoth would return from the Void to reveal Eru's Final Theme--a war which was to cover the earth in shadow. I envisioned this war to be a large-scale conflict between myself and Menelmacar [jeez, whodathunkit?], but Siri dint want to do it for various reasons, hence the BF2k4p.

However, its completely preposterous for anyone to beleive that Elves breed faster [or in this case, at the same rate] as orcs. If you ask me, no Elven empire should have 2 freaking billion predominantly elven citizens. It just ain't right.

However, its completely preposterous for anyone to beleive that Elves breed faster [or in this case, at the same rate] as orcs. If you ask me, no Elven empire should have 2 freaking billion predominantly elven citizens. It just ain't right.

Don't think of it as Elves breeding faster than Orcs. Think of it as a really high mortality rate among the Orcs as part of a massive eugenics experiment to improve their overall combat effectiveness (and intelligence, of course).

So, we'll assume that the Orcs have a normal human gestation period and the females are essentially pregnant all the time. That means four kids every three years per female. Since the females are not combat effectives (particularly if they're constantly pregnant), and there would need to be a roughly one to two ratio of males to females among the Orcs (I'm basing this on the ration Larry Niven postulated for his Kzinti), only 1/3 of the Orc population would be combat effectives to begin with.

Now lets add in a Darwinian eugenics program. All Orcs who can:

A) Survive to adulthood and
B) count above ten with their boots on

will be allowed to breed. This will eventually create a breed of Orcs that are brighter than your average human moron and are very tough. This would raise the combat value of Orcs (who are essentially spear fodder in a military composed of vampires, werewolves, dragons, and Balrogs) and still explain why their numbers are so low.

Be creative within the rules, don't change 'em.

TEO

(Man/Kzin Wars is a great series I have a couple of his books (now where are they)

I wouldn't really have a problem with it, but I do see the problems that could be created because of it, (if your a sci-fi race) then you cna use genetics, cyrogentics, and related stuff to keep the population in check so they don't kill each other every five minutes

other than that I dunno.

OOC: All census data has a margin of error, but "how much" error are you trying to get away with here? I mean, your census takers would have to be incompetant if your population was found to be even 10% more than what is reflected. A quick scan reveals that most census data has a margin of error of about 5%.

As well, your military officers will want to know how many orcs you have.
I'll give you credit with asking first before going ahead with it, but I honestly think you're trying to stretch it here.

I wouldn't go so far as to call you a godmodding twit...etc etc, But I don't think you're going about this in the right fashion. I will note that you're trying to take the initiative here, instead of your fated RP partner, but unfortunately, what you're doing is pushing the bounds of acceptability (IMHO). It would be much preferable that Siri just acknowledge the fact that her elves can't be the uber leet "perfect" creations they are (as depicted in <insert canon source here>) and ALSO be able to breed like rabbits (contrary to aforementioned "canon source"). Of course, this solution would require her taking a voluntary reduction in population (something I don't see happening....EVER). So my unwanted input: Sorry, but I don't buy it.

When life gives you lemons, don't ask why there aren't any napkins, just make some damn lemonade!

Realistic to Tolkein or not, I don't really buy the "I'm evil and can thus have a higher population" argument.

My answer is definatly no. IMO, it's hard enough trying to fight you, if you did this you'd basically be invincible. Nobody would be able to touch you if you, oh, added a few million orcs to your ranks. While my army is made of clones, I stated when I first did it that they are apart of my population, and thier growth rate was consistant with past human enlistment rates. This is acceptable, but added to your stats to top somebody that (due to Bitch Fest thing) you can't technically fight.

Just work your stats for what they are.

My $.02.

I subscribe to the "You're evil, therefore your warriors are more effective per head than a good nation's warriors." line of thinking. If Siri beats you with population (Quantity) you'll just have to beat her with skill (Quality.)
Remember that elves can pretty much only die in war, so they probably aren't as accustomed to death (Psychological warfare?) as much as your average orc. Look for your enemies' weaknesses and strike them where they are most vlunerable.

Look for your enemies' weaknesses and strike them where they are most vlunerable.

This doesn't seem like looking for a weakness; more like giving Melkor a handicap.

Look for your enemies' weaknesses and strike them where they are most vlunerable.

This doesn't seem like looking for a weakness; more like giving Melkor a handicap.

Erm...no, he was giving Melkor advice.

I know. I was also making reccommendations with my above comments.

No. I disapprove of it.

If Melkor is allowed to do this, I will be allowed to exclude some of the FH Colonies from the census.

I know. I was also making reccommendations with my above comments.

OK, you're right. :oops: ::feels silly:: It's way too late over here.

My answer is definatly no. IMO, it's hard enough trying to fight you, if you did this you'd basically be invincible. Nobody would be able to touch you if you, oh, added a few million orcs to your ranks. While my army is made of clones, I stated when I first did it that they are apart of my population, and thier growth rate was consistant with past human enlistment rates. This is acceptable, but added to your stats to top somebody that (due to Bitch Fest thing) you can't technically fight.

Just work your stats for what they are.

My $.02.

Now Auto, orcs wouldn't do too much to increase Melkor's military strenghth. They're easy to kill and are nearly useless IMO. The only problem I have is that Melkor will have a larger human force to pull out to commandeer his grav fleets which are tough enough to bring down as it is...

Now Auto, orcs wouldn't do too much to increase Melkor's military strenghth. They're easy to kill and are nearly useless IMO. The only problem I have is that Melkor will have a larger human force to pull out to commandeer his grav fleets which are tough enough to bring down as it is...

Their strength is not an issue. By that logic, I could have 10 trillion orcs in my army just so long as they're pretty weak. I'm sorry that is blatent godmodding. If Melkor can bend the rules and have it be acceptable, then you know everybody and their brother is going to want trillions and trillions of orcs/ soldiers as long as they're not too powerful.

Not to bash Melkor, but NG you know that's not acceptable.

Huh. I don't really make a very big deal out of population my self. The numbers given are ridiculous, as is the country sizes. According to this place, I control a vast empire of over two billion. I play as if I control a nation of mainly desert and mountains slightly smaller than Alaska with a population of about 70 million. If I played with the population I supposedly have, I'd have to be like India, with massive slums.

In other words, what matters is how well you write and RP, not your statistics.

(tying some dental floss into a tiny noose for the little peas that will be strung up over Starbucks)

No! It is bad enough to argue with those that have the almighty indestructible Gravship, I can see a 1 billion orc army being claimed as well.

In other words, what matters is how well you write and RP, not your statistics.

*wonders why he's still considered a light-weight by that philosophy*

In other words, what matters is how well you write and RP, not your statistics.
*wonders why he's still considered a light-weight by that philosophy*
OOC: What, you need us to draw you a picture?

If thats the case then it would only be fair for Eizen to create armies of fully robotic Soldiers? (such as the Trade Federation in Star Wars, or Skynet in the Terminator Franchise?) Perhaps Totally AI strships meaning I wouldnt ever have to supply them with crew or pilots?

This, to me, is quasi god modding and I personally feel that it wouldn't be brought up at this time unless there was some sort of immediate gain.

OOC: What, you need us to draw you a picture?

You may have to on that one, I have no clue what you're trying to say.

I replied to the statement about "how well you RP is what matters" saying that by that philosophy many still consider me inferior.

OOC: What, you need us to draw you a picture?

You may have to on that one, I have no clue what you're trying to say.

I replied to the statement about "how well you RP is what matters" saying that by that philosophy many still consider me inferior.

Inferior, no, ADHD, yes

Inferior, no, ADHD, yes

Jesus H. Christ..... :roll:

OOC: What, you need us to draw you a picture?
You may have to on that one, I have no clue what you're trying to say.

I replied to the statement about "how well you RP is what matters" saying that by that philosophy many still consider me inferior.
Well, if people are calling you a light-weight and the standard is writing and role-playing, logically it follows that your writing and role-playing are considered less than optimal.

Given that I'm not inclined to role-play in thread with quasi-demonic leaders who get killed and resurrected every few months, I'm not qualified to give my opinion. Just elaborating for you, given your admitted lack of reading comprehension.

hmmmm....I feel that in the Good v Evil struggle that Americans should also outnumber the evil enemies of my country. So I should also have my population doubled! lol Whatever... NO

Given that I'm not inclined to role-play in thread with quasi-demonic leaders who get killed and resurrected every few months

I can tell you don't read my threads. :roll: Only happened ONCE.

Just elaborating for you, given your admitted lack of reading comprehension.

Flamebait. Grow up.

In other words, what matters is how well you write and RP, not your statistics.

OOC: Thank you for confirming what I suspected quite a few people believe in. For murphy's sake, why do we even bother with having the UN rankings, civil, political, economic rankings at all if people merely wish to pick and choose whatever they want from those stats? Let's just make it all up and whomever can BS the best wins.

For most people it would be a blatent godmod. But, I doubt you would abuse that power.I have to agree with CF here. The ONLY reason I'm not running around with a giant neon sign that screams "T3H GODMOD!!!1!!" is that you are Melkor, and you are a good RPer who has proved that fact a hundred times over. I'd be fine with something like this coming from you, but from practically no one else. An example of who else could do something like this would be AMF with his sentinals, but that's about the only other person I can see actually pulling something like this off.

I stand with Aelosia in that he represents the Sindarins, I represent the Avari. And if there are roughly 1.8 billion Avari running around, well, I think you deserve a few more smelly orcs.
So, I vote in your favor melky.

I say no.......cause if your allow to have orks not included in the census, I can Rp that what is in the census mearly the high society of my nation :twisted:

It makes sense since Orcs are cannon fodder, and die in great amounts compared to a few elven casualties.

Well, it could be seen as the Uruk-Hai have some intelligence, while Melky's regular orcs are like smart monkeys... with weapons.

But to all the nations arguing if Melky does this they can have robot armies and billions of people too. Well, you can't. Melky is proposing, to follow Tolkien (on which his nation is based) that he have some more smelly monkeys... with weapons; not a massive robot army.
Now, I can see where this will still cause problems, so may I suggest a compromise?

Melky, how bout you re-arrange your population percentages, allowing for more to be counted, so you only add a few orcs. Either that, or twist Tolkien a bit and go with the "Over time, the Orcs refined their skills." But I doubt that'd fly either... so, this whole post is pretty pointless... oh well.

It makes sense since Orcs are cannon fodder, and die in great amounts compared to a few elven casualties.

OOC:

But if Melkor didn't engage in any wars (unlikely) then are you saying that his population should be much higher because they breed faster? Come on already. If that's the case, then they must be akin to tribbles.

I say yes, why? Well it just doesn't seem right. What kind of world has more Elves than Orcs?!

I have thought long and hard (about 5 minutes) about this predicament, and have come up with a conclusion/suggestion for Melky.

Get a big puppet, and name it "The Melkoran Horde of_________", or sumthing to that effect.
Some may not like this suggestion either, but I believe its better than going around the rules about population. I know other nations do this to a certain extenet. For example, TST has a puppet that makes his spaceships for him.

Well, it could be seen as the Uruk-Hai have some intelligence, while Melky's regular orcs are like smart monkeys... with weapons.

But to all the nations arguing if Melky does this they can have robot armies and billions of people too. Well, you can't. Melky is proposing, to follow Tolkien (on which his nation is based) that he have some more smelly monkeys... with weapons; not a massive robot army.
Now, I can see where this will still cause problems, so may I suggest a compromise?

Melky, how bout you re-arrange your population percentages, allowing for more to be counted, so you only add a few orcs. Either that, or twist Tolkien a bit and go with the "Over time, the Orcs refined their skills." But I doubt that'd fly either... so, this whole post is pretty pointless... oh well.

OOC: You can't start basing census results on intelligence. Otherwise most nations should, by rights, have their population drastically reduced - depending on the standard set.

And you also brought up an interesting point about resources. Melkor, like all other nations, are constrained by land, food, water, etc..., and for the military - logistical concerns. Unless we all throw that out the f***ing window and pretend that it doesn't matter. To Melkor's credit, he does take that into consideration from the RPs I've seen.

Ultimately, here's the problem. Melkor is trying to choose a particular stat and tweek it by only stating "orcs breed faster than elves". Shall other races that have high gestation rates be allowed to do the same? Yes, they should. It's bad enough that in this game one can fight 1234567890 wars and the population keeps going up at a steady rate. Now he want to add more.

I have thought long and hard (about 5 minutes) about this predicament, and have come up with a conclusion/suggestion for Melky.

Get a big puppet, and name it "The Melkoran Horde of_________", or sumthing to that effect.
Some may not like this suggestion either, but I believe its better than going around the rules about population. I know other nations do this to a certain extenet. For example, TST has a puppet that makes his spaceships for him.

OOC: That can leave the door open for puppet abuse. While Melkor can control himself - it's a generally understood problem for many. Maybe I should create a "puppet" for each of my army divisions. Would that be okay?

I have thought long and hard (about 5 minutes) about this predicament, and have come up with a conclusion/suggestion for Melky.

Get a big puppet, and name it "The Melkoran Horde of_________", or sumthing to that effect.
Some may not like this suggestion either, but I believe its better than going around the rules about population. I know other nations do this to a certain extenet. For example, TST has a puppet that makes his spaceships for him.

OOC: That can leave the door open for puppet abuse. While Melkor can control himself - it's a generally understood problem for many. Maybe I should create a "puppet" for each of my army divisions. Would that be okay?

Hey, its better than completely ignoring your population.

*Is only presenting other possible solutions for Melk's predicament*

I have thought long and hard (about 5 minutes) about this predicament, and have come up with a conclusion/suggestion for Melky.

Get a big puppet, and name it "The Melkoran Horde of_________", or sumthing to that effect.
Some may not like this suggestion either, but I believe its better than going around the rules about population. I know other nations do this to a certain extenet. For example, TST has a puppet that makes his spaceships for him.

OOC: That can leave the door open for puppet abuse. While Melkor can control himself - it's a generally understood problem for many. Maybe I should create a "puppet" for each of my army divisions. Would that be okay?

Hey, its better than completely ignoring your population.

*Is only presenting other possible solutions for Melk's predicament*

OOC: I realize that, and I'm playing devil's advocate with you. It's nothing personal so please don't get the wrong idea. To be fair, I have 3 puppets but, they are not nations per say. One represents a lone space ship while two represent organizations. So the population for the organizations is not used and the space one is drastically (and here I mean divide the pop by about 100) reduced. I consider this legitimate since all two aren't nations at all and one has severe restrictions placed on it.

But to all the nations arguing if Melky does this they can have robot armies and billions of people too. Well, you can't. Melky is proposing, to follow Tolkien (on which his nation is based) that he have some more smelly monkeys... with weapons; not a massive robot army.
Now, I can see where this will still cause problems, so may I suggest a compromise?I'll take this as an oppertunity to clarify something about my own nation.

We've ALWAYS had a robot army that existed outside of our population limit, because that's the way that robot armies work. I mean, you don't count a robot as a human under any circumstances. However, we have our army be exactly equal to 4% of the people of our nation, and have ratios for each of our creations. For example, a FARQ is worth 3 robots, a BPS is 2, a Metal Slug is 2, and so on. The system works.

Besides, our human population can't fight, it just isn't in their culture. They fill out papers and buy stuff, the robots shoot off heads and kill stuff. As long as you have a system that isn't too insane, go with it.

In other words, what matters is how well you write and RP, not your statistics.

OOC: Thank you for confirming what I suspected quite a few people believe in. For murphy's sake, why do we even bother with having the UN rankings, civil, political, economic rankings at all if people merely wish to pick and choose whatever they want from those stats? Let's just make it all up and whomever can BS the best wins.

Well, depends, doesn't it?

The NS algorithm basically gives only two specific numbers to work with-- population (which is always rounded to the nearest million or billion anyway, and so not terribly precise,) and a tax percentage (again, not terribly specific, because it doesn't state what exactly it represents -- a current income tax (and does it include payroll tax?,) asset taxes such as property tax and capital gains tax, commodities taxes, fees and tarrifs, or even all of the above.)

This gives RPers a lot of room to extrapolate their own interpretation of the numbers and even of the non-numerical terms like "good," "reasonable," etc.

And it's pretty clear that the algorithm is pretty simplistic and flawed, because the model doesn't take into account a lot of realities like how poverty rates affect crime rates, the true cost of various social conditions and their effects on an economy, etc.

So we invent other conventions to constrain us, more or less for two reasons:

To help keep "score" and give people who want to play a more or less zero-sum-game style RP a way to determine who 'wins' or 'loses;' and
To keep players who would otherwise be tempted to godmod or monkeywrench consistent, because while surprises and imagination are the delight of good RP, inconsistency for the sake of winning at any cost, jerking others' chains, or mere carelessness is the pits.


Terraus sez:
Huh. I don't really make a very big deal out of population my self. The numbers given are ridiculous, as is the country sizes. According to this place, I control a vast empire of over two billion. I play as if I control a nation of mainly desert and mountains slightly smaller than Alaska with a population of about 70 million. If I played with the population I supposedly have, I'd have to be like India, with massive slums.

In other words, what matters is how well you write and RP, not your statistics.

Terraus has created its own internal consistency, and regardless of what the NS algorithm does to their population, or how its national animal may "frolic in lush forests," it's going to be a mountain/desert region with a population of about 70 million.

Effrenata's population is more or less stabilized at 7-8 million. We're a small country no matter what the NS algorithm says. But small countries don't have to be poor, undeveloped, third-world-type entities, any more than large countries are automatically wealthy, technologically advanced military powerhouses.

It is the quality of the RP that counts. What's good-quality RP? It could be strict attention to the rules and structure, with freedom to work within that structure, like a sonnet. Or it could be a more free-form verse, but still internally consistent and understandable. Who's a better poet, William Blake or Dylan Thomas? You pays your $$, you takes your choice.

I prefer a structure that remains consistent to its own internal logic, assuming that logic is easily understandable and easily grasped by other RP-ers, to strict scorekeeping based on a set of formulas and rules. Other people have more fun working the formulas and finding imaginative ways to make rules work for them.

But as long as someone writes fluidly, creates interesting/engaging/amusing/impressive characters, imaginative plots and themes, adapts to the push/pull and give/take of creative minds working together, THAT'S great RP.

When it stops working for me is when someone who is playing by an established set of rules or formulas, with players who are relying on them to be consistent with those rules/formulas, suddenly says, "Well, I know the formula means that X implies Y, but my RP entity has this unique thingie that makes rules d-g irrelevant to me, but I'll stick to rules a-c and rules h-r."

You either get the benefits of a well-defined set of established rules (lots of people using them, lots of potential partners, fitting in easily with a lot of established storylines, fewer arguments about 'that wouldn't really happen,' etc.,) and have to pay the price of being consistent with them, or you create your own consistency, and forego those benefits.

If you do choose to create your own internal consistency/rules, and people learn to trust you to abide by them, and appreciate the quality of your roleplaying, you'll get takers on your storylines and people will allow you into their storylines. But it's a much harder trust to establish than sticking to a more defined set of external guidelines shared by lots of people. That's the down side.

Not terribly coherent, but that's my experience so far, and I've RP'd in a lot of venues....

But to all the nations arguing if Melky does this they can have robot armies and billions of people too. Well, you can't. Melky is proposing, to follow Tolkien (on which his nation is based) that he have some more smelly monkeys... with weapons; not a massive robot army.
Now, I can see where this will still cause problems, so may I suggest a compromise?I'll take this as an oppertunity to clarify something about my own nation.

We've ALWAYS had a robot army that existed outside of our population limit, because that's the way that robot armies work. I mean, you don't count a robot as a human under any circumstances. However, we have our army be exactly equal to 4% of the people of our nation, and have ratios for each of our creations. For example, a FARQ is worth 3 robots, a BPS is 2, a Metal Slug is 2, and so on. The system works.

Besides, our human population can't fight, it just isn't in their culture. They fill out papers and buy stuff, the robots shoot off heads and kill stuff. As long as you have a system that isn't too insane, go with it.

I too have about 20,000 robots not included in the population, and use various puppets to represent colonies.

Vrak, I wasn't offended, just making my position clear as well. :-D

And Im out of ideas, and tired, and have to wake up in 4 hours, so... NITE NITE!!!!

Im not about to let someone be able to fudge their population just because they didn't sign up early enough.

In other words, what matters is how well you write and RP, not your statistics.

OOC: Thank you for confirming what I suspected quite a few people believe in. For murphy's sake, why do we even bother with having the UN rankings, civil, political, economic rankings at all if people merely wish to pick and choose whatever they want from those stats? Let's just make it all up and whomever can BS the best wins.

Well, depends, doesn't it?

The NS algorithm basically gives only two specific numbers to work with-- population (which is always rounded to the nearest million or billion anyway, and so not terribly precise,) and a tax percentage (again, not terribly specific, because it doesn't state what exactly it represents -- a current income tax (and does it include payroll tax?,) asset taxes such as property tax and capital gains tax, commodities taxes, fees and tarrifs, or even all of the above.)

This gives RPers a lot of room to extrapolate their own interpretation of the numbers and even of the non-numerical terms like "good," "reasonable," etc.

And it's pretty clear that the algorithm is pretty simplistic and flawed, because the model doesn't take into account a lot of realities like how poverty rates affect crime rates, the true cost of various social conditions and their effects on an economy, etc.

So we invent other conventions to constrain us, more or less for two reasons:

To help keep "score" and give people who want to play a more or less zero-sum-game style RP a way to determine who 'wins' or 'loses;' and
To keep players who would otherwise be tempted to godmod or monkeywrench consistent, because while surprises and imagination are the delight of good RP, inconsistency for the sake of winning at any cost, jerking others' chains, or mere carelessness is the pits.


Right, so then we basically agree that the stats are a good foundation for RPs in order to minimize the jerking around. So what's the beef?

Of course the algorithm is flawed - since the purpose of this site is to promote Max's book, not necessarily to provide an RP environment. I think the problems come (and I see you alluded to this in a reply to Terraus) when you have people trying to mesh their own internal systems together. Hey, I think it is possible to be creative within an established set of rules agreed upon by two or more participants - and to be honest, I do like this roleplay stuff, especially when the boss is away. Again, as I mentioned elsewhere on different threads, when the rules keep changing all the time, then it's no fun.

If you've got the time, I wouldn't mind seeing how you keep track of your own score.

Melkor, I apologize if I came across as being somewhat anal-retentive here. But I can only see problems if you start to tweek the pop numbers a whole lot. That be my 10 won worth.

Vrak sez:If you've got the time, I wouldn't mind seeing how you keep track of your own score.

If I'm playing with someone who wants to keep score, I ask what their rules are. If I like 'em, I play. If not, I bow out politely.

My storylines aren't about scorekeeping, they're about stuff happening, and how individual characters react to it within the overall context of the nation as I've defined it, not to mention how that context is altered by the nature and participation of others. My RP's aren't win/loss situations. They're "if you pull handle B, what comes out? And what can you do with it?" situations.

Info in Effrenata HERE, if yer interested: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=113835&highlight=

My first thoughts on this was "No." This isn't because I am opposed to the idea, it is because I am opposed to the problem the idea is trying to solve...the precieved idea that Menelmacar is and always will be stronger then yourself.

Note that is NOT the same thing as "good should be weaker in any storyline conflict so that it can overcome great odds" that you have claimed. The truth is that you want to be able to win against Menelmacar 1 on 1.

Don't be ashamed of it, I and every other player in NS want to be the strongest player out there...including Siri herself. Yes, she does the same thing, claiming that her nation is very old in order to have tons of the most powerful everything (I call it "Angelusism").


However, I again say that I am not fundamentally opposed to you doing this, only to you using it as a way to beat down other nations (Menelmacar or otherwise). As someone else pointed out on page one, if you do this, every other "n00b" in NS will follow your example and claim huge, uncensused armies.

You see, as long as the little wankers are the only ones doing it, NS doesn't have much of a problem, only other little wankers will follow. But if a respected player such as yourself does it, it suddenly becomes valid. This is why I am worried about Siri and her idea that she can have 500+ grav warships better then anything else in NS just because she has had some 1000 (or was it 5000?) years to build them. She risks setting of the entire community on Angulusism.

So then in what way can I possibly support it? For RP value.

Consider, you have now doubled your population with orcs. The best they can be outside of warfare is cheap, dumb, inefficient labor. They don't understand modern farming techniques, can't hope to compete in manufacturing, and probably haven't even a clue of what electricity is beyond "captured lightning." They probably aren't even smart enough to drive.

So now you have created a welfare state to support your orc hoards until an eventual war. You need to feed them, police them (keep them away from your techie population), keep them reasonably sanitary (or risk exposing your population to their diseases), and hardest of all, keep them out of other trouble. Good luck.

The thing is, this can lead to great RP. Why? Because it is a challenge to overcome rather then a boost for you. It is a challenge for your nation and for your characters.

If you can use orcs to make RP more entertaining and more varied, then I support this.

But if your just doing it to get the upper hand on Siri, then forget it.

One last thing before I go.

I've tried powergaming before, recently in fact. You were even a witness to it. It sucks. Let me say that again, it sucks. It is boring, frustrating, tiring, leads to petty squabbles, and reduces the reputations of those involved. Avoid it at all costs. If you can't use this orc thing to improve RP, then just drop it now.

</novel>

Thank you, everyone for your input. I realized after reading over The Evil Overlord's post why I put this up on the forum in the first place. I found his concepts reasonable and I've decided his suggestions are more than acceptable for my use. Increasing my population beyond the stated number is ridiculous, now that I think about it.

I wouldnt have thought of that in a million years, but it makes damn fine sense. Heh.

Thanks, TOE, you're a pretty smart guy :lol:

Despite the problems inherent with trying to get an accurate count of the Orcs, I don't think that this is a good idea. Every dweeb, dork, simp, n00b, feeb idiot, moron, Melvin, and other vermin in the game will henceforth be able to claim the same privilege and validate the decision with, "Melkor did it so I can do it too!"

Changing the rules we have all developed in consensus over the last year for IC reasons is a prospect that should be looked upon with horror and loathing, and not committed without a damned good reason- something sadly lacking in the Black Enemy of the World's rationalization.

Since you are already roleplaying far outside the confines of Tolkein's "reality", I see no valid reason to relax the rules for the reason stated. We can't allow Melkor Unchained to get away with saying, "It's in the Silmarillion, so I should be able to do it, too" while harassing n00bs who try the same thing.

My brace of small copper coins

TEO

True enough, but for the record I'm roleplaying more or less exactly to Tolkien canon, unlike Siri, who took some very large liberties with the storyline. Not to say their not justified, since it really doesnt matter at this point.

Now, some people will be quick to say "Hey now, Morgoth was chained in the Void until the end of time!" But indeed it was foretold in the Silmarillion [or implied, at least] that Morgoth would return from the Void to reveal Eru's Final Theme--a war which was to cover the earth in shadow. I envisioned this war to be a large-scale conflict between myself and Menelmacar [jeez, whodathunkit?], but Siri dint want to do it for various reasons, hence the BF2k4p.

However, its completely preposterous for anyone to beleive that Elves breed faster [or in this case, at the same rate] as orcs. If you ask me, no Elven empire should have 2 freaking billion predominantly elven citizens. It just ain't right.

I'd be interested to see that passage in the Silmarillion, the copy I have (first ed) said that Melkor would be chained 'For all time'. In keeping with Tolkien's theme (if that is what we are after?) then we have to assume that evil always loses, just as it always does in the Silmarillion, Hobbit, Lord of the Rings , Lost Tales etc. The Melkor that is played here in NS is a much kinder and beneficial than any Tolkienian Melkor. Only in one instance did Melkor actaully ever accept an ally (Ungoliant) and he betrayed her. The Melkor in NS has many allies and relations that are not his subjects. Melkor by his nature hates everything not created or corrupted by himself, the mere fact that Melkor Unchained has allies that are not his base and abject servants shows that the 'true' Tolkienian vision is probably not adhered to and we really can't say that you need more orcs to stay true to Tolkien, you've already deviated in several ways and you should play NS as it stands.

Yeah. Well, it would have started a precedent, that's for sure. I'm sure Siri would have just found some way to uber-powergame to compensate, leading to what I like to call an "Escalation of War Wank" (EWW). Pretty soon anybody just sticking with the game population would be hopelessly outnumbered, and the only solution would be to wank.

If it comes to that, I can play that game too (except not with orcs, but veteran soldiers in countless numbers....) But like Wazzu said, it's not a good idea.

In the Unfinished Tales (don't know exact English title), Cristopher Tolkien mentions "the Second Prophecy of Mandos dealing with the return of Melkor" being mentioned in one of JRR Tolkien's notes. That's about all known about it :)

OOC: Just my .02 Menelmacari Credits:

I agree, this is a bad idea. Listen, if you start doing it, what is to say that I can't say "Elves don't die of old age, therefore, I have a population of (enter random very large number here)"

Also, I can draw beef with Menelmacar and her gravships. Thelas has been around for 200+ years. But still, she says that "you're weapons are weaker because you are a former colony", which annoys me to NO END :evil: Its' kinda like saying "The US should have a worse millitary because they were a colony of Britan" which is utter and total BS.

(Calms down)

Okay, I don't have a problem with you using a pupet. I usualy let people do it in my RPs, as long as there is a damn good OOC or IC reason. Thelas for instance has colony ships that are out in space, Ortheri One and Two, but they are serperate countries, and have serparate population growth. Now this did get me yelled at, but still, I have a good reason for it.

As such Melkor would be within his right tioo ahve a puppet.

EDIT: This is Thelas

It just seemed... I dunno... kinda wrong that the Elves should outnumber orcs. So, I rectified the solution in what may prove to be a controversial manner: I've decided to not count orcs in my census; and have them be an unknown addition to my population. No hear me out on this--if you think about it, the technicalities of taking a census renders it utterly impossible to count orcs. By the time you count a dozen, a handful have died at the hands of their brothers over a scrap of food or a shiny trinket.

You have only thought of that just now? :shock:
Wow, I thought you were already doing that. No, really, the orcs breed overly fast and die overly fast, too. And since you have many... orcs... I always considered them to be armed with some low quality ranged weaponry anyway :wink:

I'm not going to abuse this with an "OMG I AM T3H UB3r-URUK-MAST3r" war on everyone, its just that it seemse to stay in line with conentional wisom, and it actually allows my Uruk-Hai to be slightly less "uber" in a pitched fight.

And an orc is an orc, it dies fast. Whatever "uber" level it may be :)

I have nothing against the idea.

If you ask me... use Whatever sources you have for your nation as... 'colourful environment', and NS stats for anything relevant.

Which, incidentally, would mean that Thealllals has no chance against anyone, and that Melkor & Siri can go head to head, ending in a draw. Why? Siri has a higher population, higher intelligence etc. (Thusly slightly better tech), while Melkor`s military rankings simply pwn Siri´s (I think it`s about 150 in the world vs. 2500 in the world... or something like that).

Incidentally, i think that any of this ideas (Angelan 'I have only AI`s, so i can have an infinite number of ships since every ship needs only one AI to control it'*, Menelmacari 'I`m several tenth of thousands of years old and pwn everyone' as well as 'I have stupid cannonfodder and thusly have infinite amounts of them') are as intelligent as a dead snail.

* My impression during the Melkor war. Never paid too much attention to Angelus, so i could be wrong, in which case i apologize. And no, I`m too lazy to egosearch through a hundred threads...

(Angelan 'I have only AI`s, so i can have an infinite number of ships since every ship needs only one AI to control it'*, Menelmacari 'I`m several tenth of thousands of years old and pwn everyone' as well as 'I have stupid cannonfodder and thusly have infinite amounts of them') are as intelligent as a dead snail.


You've forgot my own:

Supersmart living veggies that eat about everything and grow overly fast :roll: :lol:

Actualy, ironicaly, Thelas' millitary rankings also over take Menelmacar. Exept for the fact that I have no millitary...

Realistic to Tolkein or not, I don't really buy the "I'm evil and can thus have a higher population" argument.

That wasn't the argument at all.
The argument was that elves have a notoriously low rate of population increase (some sources say no increase, but I'm pretty sure the Elves' numbers increased over the course of the Silmarillion).
Orcs on the other hand - being very animalistic in nature - would breed as fast as they possibly could until some limiting factor stopped their numbers increasing more.
As with normal animals this would be something like lack of sufficient food/water (possible - also, in this case, add resources), predation (in this case very unlikely, but you could substitute war) etc.

Unless there was a particularly good reason for it to be otherwise, I'd expect the Orc population to be greater than the Elven one. As I see it there are two ways round this:

1) The "number-fudging" method, involving thinking up reasons why the census figures aren't comprehensive (I like your reason, actually, it'd work).

2) Find a good reason - e.g. say there's a shortage of food in Dor Daedoloth, so the Orcs can't breed as fast as they would otherwise.

Go ahead, Melkor, you can use your huge amounts of Orcs. Just don't complain when I start gassing and neutron bombing them to hell.

Go ahead, Melkor, you can use your huge amounts of Orcs. Just don't complain when I start gassing and neutron bombing them to hell.
Um...Melkor already said he wasn't doing this on page three.

I know, I was being sarcastic.

Despite the problems inherent with trying to get an accurate count of the Orcs, I don't think that this is a good idea. Every dweeb, dork, simp, n00b, feeb idiot, moron, Melvin, and other vermin in the game will henceforth be able to claim the same privilege and validate the decision with, "Melkor did it so I can do it too!"

Changing the rules we have all developed in consensus over the last year for IC reasons is a prospect that should be looked upon with horror and loathing, and not committed without a damned good reason- something sadly lacking in the Black Enemy of the World's rationalization.

Since you are already roleplaying far outside the confines of Tolkein's "reality", I see no valid reason to relax the rules for the reason stated. We can't allow Melkor Unchained to get away with saying, "It's in the Silmarillion, so I should be able to do it, too" while harassing n00bs who try the same thing.

My brace of small copper coins

TEO

True enough, but for the record I'm roleplaying more or less exactly to Tolkien canon, unlike Siri, who took some very large liberties with the storyline. Not to say their not justified, since it really doesnt matter at this point.

Now, some people will be quick to say "Hey now, Morgoth was chained in the Void until the end of time!" But indeed it was foretold in the Silmarillion [or implied, at least] that Morgoth would return from the Void to reveal Eru's Final Theme--a war which was to cover the earth in shadow. I envisioned this war to be a large-scale conflict between myself and Menelmacar [jeez, whodathunkit?], but Siri dint want to do it for various reasons, hence the BF2k4p.

However, its completely preposterous for anyone to beleive that Elves breed faster [or in this case, at the same rate] as orcs. If you ask me, no Elven empire should have 2 freaking billion predominantly elven citizens. It just ain't right.

I'd be interested to see that passage in the Silmarillion, the copy I have (first ed) said that Melkor would be chained 'For all time'. In keeping with Tolkien's theme (if that is what we are after?) then we have to assume that evil always loses, just as it always does in the Silmarillion, Hobbit, Lord of the Rings , Lost Tales etc. The Melkor that is played here in NS is a much kinder and beneficial than any Tolkienian Melkor. Only in one instance did Melkor actaully ever accept an ally (Ungoliant) and he betrayed her. The Melkor in NS has many allies and relations that are not his subjects. Melkor by his nature hates everything not created or corrupted by himself, the mere fact that Melkor Unchained has allies that are not his base and abject servants shows that the 'true' Tolkienian vision is probably not adhered to and we really can't say that you need more orcs to stay true to Tolkien, you've already deviated in several ways and you should play NS as it stands.

The main problem with the whole thing is that Mandos always tended to keep his secrets to himself. He was wierd like that, but damn it, when Mandos says something, it will happen. it was vaguely mentioned once in the Silmarillion, but its largely inferred and I dont have my copy. Furthermore, I dont know where it is in there.

And the modern-era Morgoth recognizes the incredible changes in the politics of earth. When he was around, he didn't have to make allies with anyone. At this point, it would be impossible to go it alone. It would be interesting but even I'm not that powerful. I've taken most of the emotion out of Melkor, as a result of Ages of meticulous planning for his return whilst in the Void. He views most of his allies as servants anyway--they are, in his eyes, descendants of the men who served him before his fall.

I believe Lord of the Rings to be a great trilogy. But I think people should start realising that NS is NOT based on that world. It's fine if you make your own nation based on it but not the NS-world. Most people in fact play after other systems than LOTR. I understand Melkors frustrations since every man and his sister have an elf nation, and they all breed as fast as any other nation. I would like to point out that some nations like the Territory plays as if they have a lower population than their census shows. Thus they can play a race presumed better but breeding more slowly. It's all a question about game balance.

Recently it dawned on me the sheer ridiculousness of the fact that Menelmacar has a higher population than my beloved Dor Daedoloth--something which sort of flies in the face of the 'conventional' good vs. evil struggle. For those of you who don't know, my character is based on the first Dark Lord of Middle Earth--Sauron's 'boss' if you will from way back before he started makin all dem shiny rings and such. When he first came to Middle Earth and delved Utumno and Angband, Morgoth made damn sure that his Orc horders outnumbered just about every other race in the region--particularly the Elves.

It just seemed... I dunno... kinda wrong that the Elves should outnumber orcs. So, I rectified the solution in what may prove to be a controversial manner: I've decided to not count orcs in my census; and have them be an unknown addition to my population. No hear me out on this--if you think about it, the technicalities of taking a census renders it utterly impossible to count orcs. By the time you count a dozen, a handful have died at the hands of their brothers over a scrap of food or a shiny trinket.

I'm not going to abuse this with an "OMG I AM T3H UB3r-URUK-MAST3r" war on everyone, its just that it seemse to stay in line with conentional wisom, and it actually allows my Uruk-Hai to be slightly less "uber" in a pitched fight. Counted in my census will be Humans, trolls, dragons, and the Uruk-Hai. Black Uruks and orcs due to their nature could not realisitcally be counted.

Let me know what you think. I'll scrap the idea if I get an overwhelming negative response, but I think it makes sense.


Well, I think its pretty okay. Since Orcs die like flies, I mean, even if you have 3 Billion Orcs on the battle field against 1 million Elves, there is still a high risk that you will loose.

Despite the problems inherent with trying to get an accurate count of the Orcs, I don't think that this is a good idea. Every dweeb, dork, simp, n00b, feeb idiot, moron, Melvin, and other vermin in the game will henceforth be able to claim the same privilege and validate the decision with, "Melkor did it so I can do it too!"

Changing the rules we have all developed in consensus over the last year for IC reasons is a prospect that should be looked upon with horror and loathing, and not committed without a damned good reason- something sadly lacking in the Black Enemy of the World's rationalization.

Since you are already roleplaying far outside the confines of Tolkein's "reality", I see no valid reason to relax the rules for the reason stated. We can't allow Melkor Unchained to get away with saying, "It's in the Silmarillion, so I should be able to do it, too" while harassing n00bs who try the same thing.

My brace of small copper coins

TEO

True enough, but for the record I'm roleplaying more or less exactly to Tolkien canon, unlike Siri, who took some very large liberties with the storyline. Not to say their not justified, since it really doesnt matter at this point.

Now, some people will be quick to say "Hey now, Morgoth was chained in the Void until the end of time!" But indeed it was foretold in the Silmarillion [or implied, at least] that Morgoth would return from the Void to reveal Eru's Final Theme--a war which was to cover the earth in shadow. I envisioned this war to be a large-scale conflict between myself and Menelmacar [jeez, whodathunkit?], but Siri dint want to do it for various reasons, hence the BF2k4p.

However, its completely preposterous for anyone to beleive that Elves breed faster [or in this case, at the same rate] as orcs. If you ask me, no Elven empire should have 2 freaking billion predominantly elven citizens. It just ain't right.

I'd be interested to see that passage in the Silmarillion, the copy I have (first ed) said that Melkor would be chained 'For all time'. In keeping with Tolkien's theme (if that is what we are after?) then we have to assume that evil always loses, just as it always does in the Silmarillion, Hobbit, Lord of the Rings , Lost Tales etc. The Melkor that is played here in NS is a much kinder and beneficial than any Tolkienian Melkor. Only in one instance did Melkor actaully ever accept an ally (Ungoliant) and he betrayed her. The Melkor in NS has many allies and relations that are not his subjects. Melkor by his nature hates everything not created or corrupted by himself, the mere fact that Melkor Unchained has allies that are not his base and abject servants shows that the 'true' Tolkienian vision is probably not adhered to and we really can't say that you need more orcs to stay true to Tolkien, you've already deviated in several ways and you should play NS as it stands.

The main problem with the whole thing is that Mandos always tended to keep his secrets to himself. He was wierd like that, but damn it, when Mandos says something, it will happen. it was vaguely mentioned once in the Silmarillion, but its largely inferred and I dont have my copy. Furthermore, I dont know where it is in there.

And the modern-era Morgoth recognizes the incredible changes in the politics of earth. When he was around, he didn't have to make allies with anyone. At this point, it would be impossible to go it alone. It would be interesting but even I'm not that powerful. I've taken most of the emotion out of Melkor, as a result of Ages of meticulous planning for his return whilst in the Void. He views most of his allies as servants anyway--they are, in his eyes, descendants of the men who served him before his fall.

In the Silmarillion the only time Mandos prophesised doom was upon the Feanor and his sons for their kinslaying of the Teleri and the first time that Melkor was chained. Manwe sentenced Melkor to be chained for 3 ages (or 7 ages in the lost tales) and then to be brought before the Valar, it was then that Mandos predicted that Melkor would be the cause of great strife etc. The second time Melkor is chained is when he is defeated by the hosts of Eldar and Valar and his crown is betean about his neck into a collar and he is rechained, he is then forced into the blackness beyond the world and imprisoned there 'For all time' quotes there, because those were Manwe's words (I looked it up last night.).

There is no problem with playing a Tolkienian type nation or even taking liberties with it, but then we also can't be using Tolkien as a straight guide for it. Nobody can have it both ways.

In the Silmarillion the only time Mandos prophesised doom was upon the Feanor and his sons for their kinslaying of the Teleri and the first time that Melkor was chained. Manwe sentenced Melkor to be chained for 3 ages (or 7 ages in the lost tales) and then to be brought before the Valar, it was then that Mandos predicted that Melkor would be the cause of great strife etc. The second time Melkor is chained is when he is defeated by the hosts of Eldar and Valar and his crown is betean about his neck into a collar and he is rechained, he is then forced into the blackness beyond the world and imprisoned there 'For all time' quotes there, because those were Manwe's words (I looked it up last night.).

In the Unfinished Tales (don't know exact English title), Cristopher Tolkien mentions "the Second Prophecy of Mandos dealing with the return of Melkor" being mentioned in one of JRR Tolkien's notes. That's about all known about it :)

I have the feeling I'm being ignored here :?

No,I'm not ignoring you, it's just that Mandos' prophecy was made when Melkor was first chained. Mandos and Tulkas wanted Melkor banished forever but Manwe sentenced him to 3 ages of imprisonment , and Mandos predicted that would come back to bite someone in the ass.

When Melkor is defeated the second time, there is no mention of any prophecy and Manwe banishes him ad infinitum, although it does say that the evil of Melkor will linger long in Middle Earth, but I took that to mean that his escaped minions would continue to do evil, as Sauron and Smaug did.

There is a mention in 'The Shaping of Middle Earth' of a final battle, in which the evil of Melkor would be finally expunged by the race of man, but Tolkien's footnotes and additions appear to point that this was the basis for the defeat of Sauron, thereby extinguishing Melkor's last and most powerful legate.

The evidence for any final battle between Melkor and the Valar or Eldar is at best vague, at any rate.

Well, its a moot point. And yes, I said the Second Prophecy was incredibly vague. It's largely inferred, if I remember correctly. The Final Battle is never mentioned directly.

At any rate, I think its pretty obvious to just about everyone at this point that the Final Battle isnt going to happen. Leastaways, not in NS.

Oh well. I have noticed that Melkor, as prophesied by Mandos, has a way of always biting SOMEONE in the ass whenever he's about.

It just leaves us all to wonder who's next................