NationStates Jolt Archive

KNN Military Edition Reports
"Today, General Cross announced the developement of a new weapons system. Dubbed the Line-of-Sight Antitank Missile (LOSAT), it should improve Kaukolastan's armored forces in battle."

LOSAT is a dedicated antitank weapon system providing a high rate of extremely lethal fire at ranges exceeding tank main gun range, making it capable of defeating any known or projected armor system. It is a precision engagement system that enhances the Army's ability to dominate the ground maneuver battle. The key attraction of LOSAT is the tremendous overmatch lethality of the KEM that defeats all future predicted armored combat vehicles.

The system utilizes a Heavy High Mobility Multipurpose Wheeled Vehicle (HMMWV) chassis, hypervelocity kinetic energy missiles (KEM), a second generation forward-looking infrared (FLIR/TV) acquisition sensor and has a crew of two. The LOSAT system consists of a Humvee armed with four ready-to-fire missiles, with eight missiles towed behind in a resupply trailer. The LOSAT System carries four ready missiles via two two-pack containers. LOSAT can operate autonomously or with other systems using its digitized Command and Control capability.

The missile accelerates to 5000 feet per second, flies to maximum range in less than four seconds and delivers five times the kinetic energy of current tank rounds. Range of the LOSAT missile is about 5 km. The fire control system allows the gunner/commander to acquire and auto-track up to three targets. Once a launch consent is issued, the system automatically initializes and guides the missiles to the targets in a sequential manner. It is deployable on C-130 through C-5 aircraft including airdrop from the C-130. LOSAT has the requirement to be both airdropped from a C-130 or slingloaded under a UH-60L.
"And now for an preliminary test video."
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/97losat.jpg
"As you can see, once deployed, this LOSAT will allow us to attain battlefield superiority well into the next century."
Taken from www.fas.org. This is a real weapons system.

KNN Military Edition Reports
"Also revealed today was the STAFF round for Kaukolastan's M1A4 Abrams. We now go to Roberre at the Armatech Demonstration."

STAFF is a 120mm tank round that searches out and destroys enemy armor at distances beyond the reach of conventional munitions. As a top-attack smart munition, STAFF destroys enemy armor by flying over it and firing a highly lethal explosively formed penetrator down into its lightly armored top. No enemy armor is safe from STAFF -- whether it's moving, at long range, or in defilade. Although STAFF is primarily designed as an anti-armor round, it complements the M830A1 tank round by being highly lethal against helicopters. STAFF is unique among antiarmor munitions because of its large sensor footprint and the standoff capability of its explosively formed penetrator warhead.

STAFF requires no change to the tank turret and no unique actions by the tank crew other than setting a single range zone switch. From aiming and firing to the last stages of its operation, STAFF functions much like a conventional round. During ballistic flight, STAFF establishes a vertical reference and orients itself with the ground. In the final seconds of flight, a search and track mode is initiated. The forward-scanning millimeter wave sensor establishes a large footprint for target acquisition. The round flies over the target, rolls to align the warhead, fuzes, and then fires its lethal penetrator down into the most vulnerable area of the tank.
"This is just one of the next generation weapons being fielded by Kaukolastan's Army."
http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m943-2s.jpg
Also from www.fas.org. The real STAFF was built by Alliant Techsystems.

NIIIIICCCCEEEE :shock:

Wait, you mean the top was supposed to have lighter armor? Than how can you defend against air anti-tank missiles (hellfires for one).

Full armor all around baby!

The heaviest armor on a tank's the glacis plate in the front. If you put armor that thick on the entire tank, then it would trundle along at about 2mph. So, where can you lighten the tank while still making it combat effective?

Front, sides, and rear? Shells and missiles come in that way.

Bottom? MINES!!!

Top? There's the answer. Almost nothing comes from the top, and you need to lift the hatch. So, the gun, the hatch, the sensors, the engine... they're all on top. So, this munition fires down onto the targets. Unless, that is, you feel no need for engine, sensors, or a hatch.

Mines are to disputable in NS. So yes, you worry about the top for hellfires as I said are a top to high front/side striking missile launched from apaches or etc.

Furthermore, a nice anti-mine vehicle can always be used to make a path for the tanks. So yes, I have little armor on bottom and much on top (of corse most on places to be engaged in tank-to-tank fights) but its would take lets just say 95mm round+ to penetrate top on my tanks. However, size and range of your weapons is limited to the micoizatoin of the electonics and guidance systems. Why do you think missiles are so huge and you want to fit that into a dumb fire round?

Unless your doing the initaial calculations while in the barrel then all it takes is a little intel/radar (depending on launce range) to have the tank merely go in the non perdeicted direction.

(this is about the STAFF the other one sounds like a ground based hellfire so no problem there.)

PS: Hydralics/electromagnetics to assist with the hatch and adding in such componets to find the hatch and then hit it at that speed would result in less speed UNLESS you want to make it a missile and then you would just be having to use more when a simple hellfire with maybe a little more punch or a larger round would do the same thing.

STAFF is 120mm APFSDS, but it hits the weaker topside rather than glacis plate. The difference is that it is fire-and-forget, has longer range, and can hit hidden targets and indirect fire. It is still a Depleted Uranium penetrator.

Anti-mine vehicles are slow and usually unarmed or lightly armed. If you lead your armored charge with antimine vehicles you're setting yourself up for a massacre.


Unless your doing the initaial calculations while in the barrel then all it takes is a little intel/radar (depending on launce range) to have the tank merely go in the non perdeicted direction.


Yes, internal calculations are done in the barrel, but the essense of a "smart munition" is its ability to do autonomous calculations and guide itself based on constantly changing target information. The weapon itself DOES these calculations. Its radar senses the movement, and the computer adjusts its flight accordingly.

So basically your just arching your shots more? It sounded to me like it went over the target, used optics to find hatch or weak point and fire a smaller round back to hit the target. If its just got more arch I think my pilots do that anyway (or when 155mm is not enough to put a hole in the front and/or side).

Double.

See below.

Anti-mine vehicles are slow and usually unarmed or lightly armed. If you lead your armored charge with antimine vehicles you're setting yourself up for a massacre.


Unless your doing the initaial calculations while in the barrel then all it takes is a little intel/radar (depending on launce range) to have the tank merely go in the non perdeicted direction.


Yes, internal calculations are done in the barrel, but the essense of a "smart munition" is its ability to do autonomous calculations and guide itself based on constantly changing target information. The weapon itself DOES these calculations. Its radar senses the movement, and the computer adjusts its flight accordingly.

Then its a missile (a "floater" mind you) but a missile none the less.
(Had bombs like that, it just glided to the target so it packed more punch by removing the fuel and puting in explosive).

Not really. It's a tank shell that is fired, and it flies over the battlefield. Upon detecting an enemy, it angles in and slams into the top. Guided 120mm... of DOOM.

Sounds like more room for error. I'll just stick with the "bigger is better" for now and arch em more if need be (if I can hit em from the sides, why not just drop a bit of range and lob it.)

Then its a missile (a "floater" mind you) but a missile none the less.
(Had bombs like that, it just glided to the target so it packed more punch by removing the fuel and puting in explosive).


Yeah, it's called the bomb loft. It's built into almost all modern guidance computers in aircraft, the idea being to gain standoff capability for regular dumb bombs. Laser guided and JDAM bombs do this automatically (hence the wings that pop out of the side).

This is NOT indirect fire artillery, this is a direct fire tank munition. The round guides itself, meaning it literally can (and does in its terminal phase) change directions (laterally as well as vertically) to follow targets.

Message to Kaukolistan: Think you could help my country out with making the LOSAT a little smaller so I could mount a couple batteries on my new attack helicopters?

In which case you are sacrificing the rounds power making is less than a 120mm despite thats what it is fired from to make room for the radar/optics and the microprocessor to determine what is a "tank" and what is a "rock" or your gonna have hit a lot of big piles of sand and/or rocks.

Best guess is that it would be around a 90-105mm round after the concessions are made.

In which case you are sacrificing the rounds power making is less than a 120mm despite thats what it is fired from to make room for the radar/optics and the microprocessor to determine what is a "tank" and what is a "rock" or your gonna have hit a lot of big piles of sand and/or rocks.

Best guess is that it would be around a 90-105mm round after the concessions are made.

So how are you figuring that it would be a 90-105mm round again? Because the last time I checked, rounds don't mysteriously change bore sizes in the middle of flight. And if you're referring to the mass of the round, may I remind you that it still has high explosives in it and still fires and explosively formed jet of molten copper at supersonic speeds into whatever it's going for.

So your alternative is to make the rounds as huge as you can, sacrificing the amount of ammunition you can carry in your tank (which is by the way going to be less accurate than this ammunition because it's not uber tech) and the rate at which you can fire that ammunition.

Oh, and when you're busy raising the trajectory of your tank so you can hit the lightly armored top, don't forget that whatever you're shooting at (if it's mobile) is just going to move out of the way since the higher the round goes in the air the longer its in the air and the more chance something has to move. So you're doubling the accuracy problems if you do that.

Oh, and unless you're talking self-propelled howitzer, the highest angle a tank barrel can go is not enough to put a high ballistic trajectory on the round. And if you are talking self-propelled howizter, the STAFF rounds will love your massive RCS. :lol:

Not really. It's a tank shell that is fired, and it flies over the battlefield. Upon detecting an enemy, it angles in and slams into the top. Guided 120mm... of DOOM.

Not at all. This round is a variation of the technology used in the BLU-108/B sensor-fuzed submunition. Basically, it works like this. The range setting is set into the round and it is loaded into the gun. The gunner fires the round downrage and it flies a normal ballistic path. As it nears its preset range, a millimeter-wave radar activates and aquires the target, and postions the round so it flies over the target. The actual round never hits the target. Instead, as it flies over, and the sensors detect the round is rotated longitudinally in the right direction, a shaped charge fires, explosively forging (known as a self-forging projectile) a slug of copper into a molten spiked armor piercing shape moving at hypersonic velocities. It is the slug of copper that actually does the damage to the target, not the round itself.

As a side note, most anti-armor missiles impact the sides of the tank, not the top, unless programmed to perform a terminal pop-up maneuver.

Here is a picture of an explosively formed projectile from a BLU-108/B, that showes what this process looks like.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/images/cbu97_34.jpg

Thanks for the clarification. I thought the round hit itself. But... this is better. And Dodekistan, I'll get to work on that smaller LOSAT.

w00t!

For Karmabaijan its in use and makes sense but for the shell to hit the target it self the explosive force would be lessened because you are putting in the equipment to track and find the target.

And I just use a larger version of BLU-108 to fit the muzzel size of my tanks (which ever size they maybe).

It's not the explosive force of the shell but the force of the molten copper slamming into the vehicle. And you can't just retro-actively declare tech.

For Karmabaijan its in use and makes sense but for the shell to hit the target it self the explosive force would be lessened because you are putting in the equipment to track and find the target.

And I just use a larger version of BLU-108 to fit the muzzel size of my tanks (which ever size they maybe).

That makes no sense....the BLU-108/B submuntion is a bomblet dropped from a cluster bomb, it is not a tank round. Let me say this again...the round does not hit the target. The round basically shoots another round (molten copper slug) at the target tank as it flies overhead. The sensors capable of identifying tanks and targets from ground objects is only a couple inches long, and less than an inch thick.

That I know, but it is fired from the tank and the round it self fires the molten spike into the tank.

Yes I know I can't declare it, I'll go buy some production rights or research it my self...

(or say I did :twisted: )

(or say I did :twisted: )
And I'll call you on theft and pursue action.

COUGH TECH WANKER COUGH COUGH!!!!!

If you want tech that someone else came up with, you ask politely, like I did.

But thats OOC (well usually, often times internal comments to clarify or just to by funny).

So the IC judge throws out your claim due to OOC evidince in an IC court of law.

Case dismissed!

But thats OOC (well usually, often times internal comments to clarify or just to by funny).

So the IC judge throws out your claim due to OOC evidince in an IC court of law.

Case dismissed!

OOC: At no point did you specify OOC in your discussion, and the default of NS is IC. Therefore, your statements would be viewed as a threat and treated as such.

And it's "evidence", not "evidince".

.:Shakes head:.

Just give up, ask for your tech or production rights. He doesn't have to give it to you. Let's not be a n00b role player, ehh?

:roll:

If and when I get involved in a war I would of course declare my inovations so don't worry about me taking the U.S. millitary tecnology and using it as my own with out saying I designed it but because this is a declaration I have starting point (cause I would "see it in action" via your pictures and vidios).


Hukd on fonics werkd fer me!
(so yes I am sorry for my spelling errors)

OOC: How, by seeing video of a rocket launch and pics of a shell casing, could you duplicate them?

No, but by knowing they are plausible is a start as well as seeing a crude way of their workings does give a good starting point (why other nations create the same device in less R&D time than the first one to make it)

No, but by knowing they are plausible is a start as well as seeing a crude way of their workings does give a good starting point (why other nations create the same device in less R&D time than the first one to make it)

Actually, in real life reverse engineering takes a lot longer than doing it the first time around. But that's just real life, right?

When America first deployed the Sidewinder missiles (heat trackers) the USSR scrambled to catch up with them and had them in production in a matter of years compared to the near decade I think it took America.

(But thats a facist state, like me :lol: )

And their initial versions weren't near as good as the sidewinders either.

Communits Soviets hate facists...

As a top-attack smart munition, STAFF destroys enemy armor by flying over it and firing a highly lethal explosively formed penetrator down into its lightly armored top. No enemy armor is safe from STAFF -- whether it's moving, at long range, or in defilade. Although STAFF is primarily designed as an anti-armor round, it complements the M830A1 tank round by being highly lethal against helicopters. STAFF is unique among antiarmor munitions because of its large sensor footprint and the standoff capability of its explosively formed penetrator warhead.

STAFF is 120mm APFSDS, but it hits the weaker topside rather than glacis plate. The difference is that it is fire- and-forget, has longer range, and can hit hidden targets and indirect fire. It is still a Depleted Uranium penetrator.

Sorry, but we are confused. Is this an APFSDSDU round or and EFP HEAT round? You have stated that it is both....

It was ruled by an all powerful dictator, geeze...

fascist

<jargon> Said of a system with excessive or annoying
security barriers, usage limits, or access policies. The
implication is that said policies are preventing people from
getting interesting work done.

OOC: Looking at your source you seem to be confusing this (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m829a1.htm) with this (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/m943.htm).

Sorry, but we are confused. Is this an APFSDSDU round or and EFP HEAT round? You have stated that it is both....
It is EFP HEAT. I misunderstood the implications at first, but I have seen the light. It fires the copper projectile down, wheras I oringinally thought it was guided APFSDS. That was corrected in the midst of the ongoing bickering.

So are extremist religious states. And if you dare call them fascists...

Rogets dictionary:
Fascist: A system of government that excersizes a dictatorship of the extreme right.

So was he. I was just making a statement for how he backed it and I thought that was settled.

Your LOSAT is indeed a dangerous-looking weapon, for use against those who can not destroy HMMWVs and/or have tank-mounted anti-missile systems. Perhaps in a few years you'll have scaled it down to a man-portable system comparable to the A4GMs issued to Nianacio's army.
*Thinks to self: "I hope not..."*
Anti-mine vehicles are slow and usually unarmed or lightly armed. If you lead your armored charge with antimine vehicles you're setting yourself up for a massacre.The tanks can carry their own mine-destroying equipment.

Stalin was a dictator, he had engineeres and designers shot in the hundreds if their projects did not meet expectations!

He was a supreme dictator.

OOC: My grudge is the fact that another nations just said, "Hey that's cool... SWIPE!" and now POOF, they have it. No RP, no research, God Help Us, no purchasing the damn things... just retconning them into existance.

I said I could, I am not despite the fact that they were displayed by America in 1990 therefore being in RL existance for 14 years but hey!

Your LOSAT is indeed a dangerous-looking weapon, for use against those who can not destroy HMMWVs and/or have tank-mounted anti-missile systems.
The benefit of these are that they have a longer range than a tank's main gun, move at 5000 fps, and can rapid volley. While we have shoulder launched AT systems, this is a hypervelocity rocket designed to strike safely out of range and in mass quantities.

And they have shown capability of penetrating any known tank armor.

The tanks can carry their own mine-destroying equipment.


Yes they can, but mine clearing is a slow and tedious process, better taken care of with armor on the underside of the tank. Or of course shooting a line charge over the suspected minefield, but that's irrelevent at this point.

That I know, but it is fired from the tank and the round it self fires the molten spike into the tank.

Yes I know I can't declare it, I'll go buy some production rights or research it my self...

(or say I did :twisted: )
OOC: Could you explain how? The submunition is designed to be employed from a SUU-66/B submunitions dispenser, not from a tank's smoothbore gun.

Even with that, how are you going to propell this submunition?

When America first deployed the Sidewinder missiles (heat trackers) the USSR scrambled to catch up with them and had them in production in a matter of years compared to the near decade I think it took America.

Actually, the Soviets' first "high-tech" (by that time's standards) missile, the R-3/AA-2, was a reverse-engineered AIM-9. In the early Taiwan Strait crisis, a ROCAF F-86 fired an AIM-9B onto a PLAAF MiG-17 but the missile somehow didn't detonate and was carried back by the MiG-17 (I heard that it went in the nose or something). Before that, the Soviets had a painful time in developing its own AAM.

=======================================

IC:

We congratulate Kaukolastan in their new achievment in the anti-tank warfare arena, which is very important for a future mechanized battlefield. Although the OHDF has already deployed these, but we must note that the Kaukolastan military should refrain from taking these missiles and rounds as the primary AT weapon, but also focusing on other different rounds and types of AT missiles.

The same way most people do (whom are not future tech) go to a U.S. millitary page, copy the text, tweet it a bit to fit and say I did it! :twisted:

Cause what? Your expecting my to create an actual weapons break through for all of NS?

The same way most people do (whom are not future tech) go to a U.S. millitary page, copy the text, tweet it a bit to fit and say I did it! :twisted:

OOC: ...and? That doesn't necessarily mean that you can find information about how to turn cluster bomb submunitions to tank rounds. We at NS also actually roleplay, not just saying that "i developed these new upgrades for the m1a2!!11" or etc. almost instantly. You'd actually need to announce the development, or in a simpler way, buy other's technology.

If you just claim it almost as if your military tech people developed it instantly, then congratulations, people are going to ignore your claim.

The benefit of these are that they have a longer range than a tank's main gun, move at 5000 fps, and can rapid volley. While we have shoulder launched AT systems, this is a hypervelocity rocket designed to strike safely out of range and in mass quantities.

And they have shown capability of penetrating any known tank armor.Nianacio's A4GMs can do such things in a manportable package and also be used against aircraft.
Well, okay, it trades some speed for man-portability and range, but it does fly at over Mach 4. Are there tanks with armor equivalent to over one meter of RHA?
Yes they can, but mine clearing is a slow and tedious process, better taken care of with armor on the underside of the tank.Yes, I suppose.
OOC: But my tanks go for mine-clearing equipment, because you can't go fast in the local terrain, anyway.
Your expecting my to create an actual weapons break through for all of NS?I try to create things that'd amaze any modern-tech nation.

Well, I have to go, now. Bye.

I post the declaration of research.

Wait...

Declare its finished after a week or so.

I'll start dragging in some semi-original things in here if I have to (that I have RP-ed the creation of) though alot of declarations just get shoved down cause they are not always to interesting.

We thank Omz222 for their comminique and Nianacio for their pointing out of man-portable. How did you miniaturize it so, for we have allies interested in smaller versions for helicopter mounting.

OOC: AFRP, I would sell you it, and I applaud your researching this.

Although the OHDF has already deployed these, but we must note that the Kaukolastan military should refrain from taking these missiles and rounds as the primary AT weapon, but also focusing on other different rounds and types of AT missiles.
Our primary rounds are APFSDS-DU and HEAT, although STAFF are being built (this thread), and we have TEMP and Parkins Homing Rounds being developed.

Well actually buying it would be quite helpful (wont RE so don't worry).

Does it come in 150mm and 75mm sizes as well as the standard 120mm?
(Three types of tanks fer me :) )

Also possible costs on production rights?

We can produce in any of those, although 155 would be easier than 150. I'll get back to you on cost.