NationStates Jolt Archive

The PBMC is a tool for nations to use to both balance their areas of military focus and to calculate their military units and their costs. It is currently under development but I thought I'd put out the beta for everyone to take a look at and give me and the rest of the contributors some feedback.

You will need MS Excel. If you don't have it there is a viewer avaliable on microsoft.com - just search for excel viewer. It's a small download and will allow you to view any excel files.

www.pacifier.com/~cziller/PBMC.xls

Here's the step by step instructions:

In the 'Nation' field enter your nation's name.

Enter your exact population in the 'Population' field, or if you are using the viewer use the dropdown under 'Add Population' to add the approximate amount of population you need.

Choose your 'Economy' rating from the dropdown list.

Pick your 'Technology' from the dropdown list. Not all technology levels are listed, and some like 'Magic' cover multiple potential eras.

Choose what your 'Defense Spending' is according to your nation description.

The last step in this area is to put in how large your military is as a percentage. The cell will accept .01%-20% - if input as a decimal you need to put it in like this: .20 (for 20%).

The sheet will then generate your point total which you can then distribute amoung the various services using the pull downs. It will also show you a rough budget based on whatever you enter, and your enlistment and average salary based on what you enter.

The next page is a bit more free form. It will allow you to enter your various military units (tanks, planes, soldiers, etc) and it will determine based on the previous page the yearly costs for each unit as well as the total costs for each unit and subtract this from your budget. None of the information on this page goes back to the first page, so you can do the first without doing the second, but you need to at least do the basics on the first page for the second to work correctly.

The PBMC was put together by me with help and ideas from the following people: Ainulindalion, NYNJ, Sirithil, Nargovorod and Qabrestan.

New versions will be under the same file name and are uploaded whenever I feel like it or I broke something.

Comments or Questions?

This looks very good, but I can't find how to use the drop down boxes. Mind you, I am viewing this in OpenOffice.org 1.1.0 rather than excel.

This looks very good, but I can't find how to use the drop down boxes. Mind you, I am viewing this in OpenOffice.org 1.1.0 rather than excel.

I have to guess what possible options are instead

You may be able to enter them manually. They should be limited to the following:

None, Minimal, Basic, Average, Above Average, Good, Very Good, and Excellent.

I can try to save it in an older format - any notes on what excel formats are best supported?

Thanks. What are the technology level options?

Thanks. What are the technology level options?

Also, where it says

Total Points:
Current Points:

I presume the idea is that you can't let current points drop below zero

Renaissance, Imperial, Pre-Modern, Modern, Post-Modern, Near-Future, Future, Far-Future, Magic

Not Mentioned, Secondary, Juggles, Concerned, Concentrated, Devoted, Ruled

To a certain extent. I would try to get as close as possible while spending all avaliable points.

Thanks greatly. This is a well thought out and useful tool. Maybe I will finally join in with war RPs.

Great job!

Okay, I've got a problem.

My country is an idealized Platonian republic modified by Walter Jon Williams' society laid out in Aristoi. My biggest problem with my military is its sheer size- one cannot have an idealized Platonian republic without a military that comprises a full third of the population. The Aristoi comprise a small fraction drawn from the Poloi, the military comprises a full third of the population, and anyone not a member of the military or Aristoi is a member of the Demos/Poloi (depending on context).

Would it be possible to revise the spreadsheet such that a military size of 33 percent of the population is an accepted value? I could majorly fudge the numbers such that operators of the military's agricultural facilities, aged servicemembers, and military police don't count as part of the military, but I'd still come in over 25%.

Anyway, this strikes me as a bloody brilliant idea, but in order for it to be any use to me (due to my nation's unique circumstances) the numerical limit would need to be changed.

Nice work with the spreadsheet.

My only objection is that I have too many points left over after maxing out everything. I even increased the size of my military to 2%, and I could double that and still have leftover points.

I think this would be very helpful to younger nations, and would be especially useful as a tool to prove they are not GodModing.

I look forward to your final version.

TEO

I can remove the limits on army size, though the huge point cost for such a thing... If you have excel you can specifically move it upward. Save the file to disk, go into the percentile cell and hit 'Data' and 'Validation' and change the limit to whatever you like.

TEO,

Yeah, that's always been the problem. Getting the numbers to balance is hard as I don't want to screw smaller nations either. The scaling numbers that I put in will help somewhat since the higher the population the more the next step costs, but it's not perfect.

I'm also open to suggestions as far as what additional features to add in. I'd like to make it so it pulls all the original data in when you enter the nation's name but I don't know enough about excel and XML to do that. If you do I'd love to know how.

This is one of the very, very few times I wish I had Excel. I have OpenOffice.org 1.1 on this computer but haven't a clue how to work the spreadsheet program.

And yes, the point costs are gigantic. Believe it or not (I'm serious about my roleplaying), the mental costs are also significant compared to a smaller army. I just want to know what I've got left when I'm done :-)

I'm also open to suggestions as far as what additional features to add in. I'd like to make it so it pulls all the original data in when you enter the nation's name but I don't know enough about excel and XML to do that. If you do I'd love to know how.

Looks to me like you're at least as knowledgeable about excel as I am. The only real suggestion I could make would be to somehow tie this in with one of the better GDP calculators (or make up your own national and military budget calculator).

The real issue is how to afford all of the equipment and personnel one has in the military. I liked the fact that you have fields for logistics and maintenance. Perhaps you could dramatically increase the point costs for each upgrade in these fields as the population grows. This would probably make the calculations incredibly convoluted, but it's a suggestion.

I've saved the calculator in its present form onto my hard drive. I'll play around with it a bit to try and reverse-engineer it to get a feel for the thought processes that led to the current form, and then I'll try to work forward from there. I doubt I could have done as well if I'd tried this.

As I said before, this is a very good idea- especially for newer nations. Used as a guideline for building a military, it could really help newcomers figure out exactly what they have and what they want to do with it.

TEO

how do we tell what our defense budget is?

Downloaded the Excel Viewer, and it keeps giving me errors when I attempt to use the solitary drop-down menu on it. Do you have a recent one around to download?

Bler. I'd save it in an older version but the newest version is at work and sadly unuploaded. This version is seriously broken, at least on the equipment and personnel table, and I don't want to saddle anyone with it.

I'll love it when I actually get it working...I think I need a different viewer, or may'be not, I am retarded after all.

I like the PBMC cause it will help me out with some Wargaming stuff. Im playtesting this game called Victory by any means, Im working to mesh the two together for my campaign. Nyar!

*tag

Looks good to me!

The latest version is uploaded - it fixes some grevious math errors in the equipment calculation and adds scaling costs for size/military size. I also saved it in an older version of Excel if it doesn't seem to work right for you.

Current Version:

www.pacifier.com/~cziller/PBMC.xls

Older Version:

www.pacifier.com/~cziller/PBMC(Excel5).xls

I'm going to add instructions and some resources for looking up modern military hardware and costs.

Found a couple of quibbles:

The text for Intelligence and Research all read from the Infantry table. The Reserves text reads from the Magic/Psionic table.

I have a couple of different tables made up (on another computer) with different text, which I will post once I can get the cat off the other computer.

I would also like to know what to do with the new Logistics and Maintenance boxes at the bottom of the page.

I noticed that there's a table for "Flaws" that doesn't seem to be referenced from the main calculator page.

I still like the calculator, and it's still a good idea. Keep up the good work.

TEO

Here are some suggestions for the Reserves, Research, and Intelligence tables:

RESERVES
None- There are no Reserve units in your country
Minimal- Bah! We can always draft a few thousand illiterate peasants if we have to.
Basic- A small, semi-professional Militia is available to assist the Regulars in extreme situations.
Average- Actual Reserve components of Regular units exist.
Above Average- Reserves and Militia units are integrated and train to professional standards.
Good- A powerful and flexible Reserve force is available- albeit not quite as well equipped as the Regulars.
Very Good- Many Reserve units are equipped with up-to-date weapons, and training is on a par with the Regulars.
Excellent- The Reserves and Regulars are completely interchangeable. Same equipment, same training.


RESEARCH
None- The nation has no research division.
Minimal- It was good enough for my grandfather, so it's good enough for us. We don't need any fancy gadgets.
Basic- "This new learning impresses me, Sir Bedivere. Tell me again how to use sheep's bladders to predict earthquakes."
Average- Okay, okay. We can build some new stuff.
Above Average- New uses for old technologies, and rare breakthroughs.
Good- A few genuine breakthroughs, but steadily building new advances pushes you toward the edge of the envelope.
Very Good- You may not be at the edge of the envelope, but it's in the same zip code.
Excellent- Deep-Think Teams develop new technologies slightly faster than they become obsolete.


INTELLIGENCE
None- The nation has no intelligence service.
Minimal- Your country is vaguely aware of the fact that there are other countries.
Basic- A bureaucrat in your Foreign Ministry abruptly realizes that some of these foreigners may have unkind intentions.
Average- Underfunded, undermanned, and horribly overworked, your Intel people keep tabs on some of the biggest threats.
Above Average- Good sources of information are planted in various potential enemy countries.
Good- Your biggest threats are heavily penetrated … but so are you.
Very Good- Your intelligence people know everything … and they keep out most of the foreign spies
Excellent- Your intel is so good that you could help foreign leaders find their missing car keys, and foreign spies suffer serious accidents … a lot of really serious accidents.

<tag, since I be a helpin' too>

<gotta keep up the updates, and the ideas>

Here are some suggestions for the Reserves, Research, and Intelligence tables:

RESERVES
None- There are no Reserve units in your country
Minimal- Bah! We can always draft a few thousand illiterate peasants if we have to.
Basic- A small, semi-professional Militia is available to assist the Regulars in extreme situations.
Average- Actual Reserve components of Regular units exist.
Above Average- Reserves and Militia units are integrated and train to professional standards.
Good- A powerful and flexible Reserve force is available- albeit not quite as well equipped as the Regulars.
Very Good- Many Reserve units are equipped with up-to-date weapons, and training is on a par with the Regulars.
Excellent- The Reserves and Regulars are completely interchangeable. Same equipment, same training.

I don't have a "Reserve" section in the one that I have. Did I somehow not download the newest one?

They look good to me TEO - I've included them in the latest version.

Version Changes (.9b to 1.0a)

Added Intelligence, Reserves, and Research descriptions.
Added Reserves as a Basic Service.
Reworked Personnel and Equipment sheet to show the maintenance costs
properly and clearly.

Found a couple of quibbles:

The text for Intelligence and Research all read from the Infantry table. The Reserves text reads from the Magic/Psionic table.

I have a couple of different tables made up (on another computer) with different text, which I will post once I can get the cat off the other computer.

I would also like to know what to do with the new Logistics and Maintenance boxes at the bottom of the page.

I noticed that there's a table for "Flaws" that doesn't seem to be referenced from the main calculator page.

I still like the calculator, and it's still a good idea. Keep up the good work.

TEO

1. Descriptions are a total pain - they need to be generic enough to cover all technological periods which still giving an obvious seperation between the levels.

2. Thanks - they are in... (See above post)

3. Logistics and Maintenance show the percentage of each unit's purchase cost that is spent on either maintaining it or keeping those who maintain it trained and ready for battle. This is combined together for the equipment spreadsheet to calculate the yearly cost for a particular unit.

4. The Flaws are a legacy function that might make a return.

---

One idea I've been considering is to figure out a way to string all the descriptions together into a description somewhat like your nation description. This could then be put on a webpage or into a fact thread here. Yes, no, stupid?

Another serious idea has been to add another sheet so you can divide up your points even further, though these would have no descriptions and would need to vary by tech era. For instance for modern+ you could divide up your points between Basic Infantry, Airmobile, and Mechanized Infantry units. This would be a massive project as we would need to figure out likely 3-4 sub-areas for each Basic Service. Yes, no, stupid?

OOC: This is excellent Sunset. Still playing around with it. Not sure for page 2 how to exactly compare various troops. That is, the M1A1 MBT has a frontline number of "3". What does that mean? Is it firepower? Would an infantry unit be "1"? To be fair, you do mention "use your best judgement" but if I had a basis for what the 3 meant then I can go from there.

frontline number = crew

I think.

Yep - it's the crew. But since you can also put in an infantry unit 'crew' is not appropriate.

I've put up an example for everyone:

www.pacifier.com/~cziller/ElHefePBMC.xls

Everything is filled out to include all their current units and troops. Unfortunately since El Hefe's economy slipped I don't have enough points for everything. The budget doesn't seem to be calculating correctly yet as the EH budget is the same as the total pipian budget. More work for me, yay. Sunset's somewhat overbudget though - still can't spend all the points though...

OOC: For a naval vessel, is the entire crew considered in the totals here? That is, quite a few folks on board a navy vessel are support. In case you're wondering why I'm bringing this up and why I have such an interest in this thread - it's because I posted a thread a while ago (combat support ratios) to try and get a better grasp on the whole "design a military" idea.

nice, but some questions.
what is the support column?
what is the frontline column?
what is the difference between total and total units?

nice, but some questions.
what is the support column?
what is the frontline column?
what is the difference between total and total units?

The support column is the number of support personnel. This is based off the number of frontline personnel (IE people who get shot at on a regular basis). It's just the number of frontliners multipled by the maint/logistics percent. The total is the total number of personnel when you take the number of units (500 ships) and multiple it times the total personnel (frontline + support). This will then show down at the bottom how many people you have racked up so far.

Vrak:

Yes - it assumes that some are in support positions (though they still get shot at). The support personnel are those that might for instance maintain the docking facilities, or gather supplies for the ship while it's at sea, or maintain an ammunition depot, etc.

i like it.

Well I ran my army through. Seems my stuff came out while barely breaking a sweat pointwise.

I think the second page needs some work. Some vehicles are going to require much heavier support than others eg M1 tanks will require more people doing maintainance per crew member than will a jeep. Also there isn't enough space to fit all my vehicle types onto te second page.

One idea I've been considering is to figure out a way to string all the descriptions together into a description somewhat like your nation description. This could then be put on a webpage or into a fact thread here. Yes, no, stupid?

I think that's a very good idea, but it also sounds like a hell of a lot of work.


Another serious idea has been to add another sheet so you can divide up your points even further, though these would have no descriptions and would need to vary by tech era. For instance for modern+ you could divide up your points between Basic Infantry, Airmobile, and Mechanized Infantry units. This would be a massive project as we would need to figure out likely 3-4 sub-areas for each Basic Service. Yes, no, stupid?

Not sure if this would be workable, unless there was a seperate page for each tech level type. Again, this seems like a hell of a lot of work, but useful.

TEO

tag...this this owns...

Now lets see if the result is reasonable

Well I ran my army through. Seems my stuff came out while barely breaking a sweat pointwise.

I think the second page needs some work. Some vehicles are going to require much heavier support than others eg M1 tanks will require more people doing maintainance per crew member than will a jeep. Also there isn't enough space to fit all my vehicle types onto te second page.

Agreed. I was thinking of perhaps making the support dependant on the total cost of all the vehicles (IE 1000 tanks at 3.4m each divided by 1 person per X where X is the maint and logistics numbers.)

I think the points still are not scaling correctly - El Hefe as you can see ran out of points rather quickly. But Sunset cannot run out of points. It can run out of money, but you can do that with any nation if you try ;).

I think the points still are not scaling correctly - El Hefe as you can see ran out of points rather quickly. But Sunset cannot run out of points. It can run out of money, but you can do that with any nation if you try ;).

Actually, that's one of the most "realistic" aspects of the calculator. Being capable of building and fielding something does not necessarily generate the financial wherewithal to do so. Sadly, there are no economic consequences to prevent people from ignoring the fact that they simply can't afford the neat stuff the calculator sugests that they can own.

One possible option (here I go making more work for you again) is to adjust the point values for the military units up or down according to several factors (point cost increases with higher ratings, decreases for minor graduations of tech level, and increases for population).

If a player wants a fairly "realistic" (there's that word again) military, the best choice would be to use this calculator for determining what sort of units/equipment are possible. Next, use one of the better economic calculators to determine the national and military budget (not the GDP- the actual budget figures). Once this is done, cross-reference the budgets with the calculator results.

Seeing the budget vanish under the pressure of all of those ubermilitaries might bring some badly-needed rationality to the military situation.

Another option might be to subtract the point cost for each unit from the total point score. That would seriously limit smaller countries, however. Especially tied in with the tiny military budgets smaller countries are likely to have.

Let's face it: a free-form roleplaying forum does not lend itself to easy definition by calculators. Every country will punch in their numbers, then they'll decide that certain of their favorite units/equipment is exempt from one or another condition set by the calculator. It might become necessary to create a calculator similar to this one for each tech level, but God help the poor soul who tries to do that.

This is not to suggest that the calculator is not a good thing. It goes far toward organizing and coordinating the creation of military forces. Since perfection is unachievable, let us simply work to get as close as we can. This calculator is a fine start.

Good job, Sunset.

TEO

Back-Up Multiple Posting.

I have been watching this with great interest. However, due to computer issues (I post from 2 different public terminals which do not have excel and do not allow downloads) I have yet to have a look. Any suggestions or help?

my computer isnt running it
dont know whats up
says there is an error and closes the program
any help?

I have been watching this with great interest. However, due to computer issues (I post from 2 different public terminals which do not have excel and do not allow downloads) I have yet to have a look. Any suggestions or help?

I believe that there's a built-in viewer with the calculator for just such a circumstance, but Sunset's the best one to ask.

TEO

The excel viewer is actually a download - a small download, but a download. You would go to www.microsoft.com and do a search on their site for excel viewer.

As far as the error - could be a version conflict. The PMBC is saved in Excel2002 format. I can do some specific versions if you can give me the version of excel you have.

There is a new version of the PBMC uploaded as well. It fixes more math errors for calculating the salary.

Shazam ya'll I done figured out the problem I was havin'. It turns out I dont have Excel...oh man, haha. Anyhow I went to my friends house and tried it there.

My Armed forces, is 11,000,000 strong and Im at -17 points. The training is, so-so and my equipment is ''meh''. It turns out that since my armed forces is in the business of defending the majority of the Vascilian League that we are running a deficit. I had to cut my forces in half to even come close to actually making points back. :x