NationStates Jolt Archive

Torontonias would like to hold a meeting of the Xanthalian International Advisory Committee in order to discuss a new proposal: Opening Xanthals Economy to Small Trade.

We all know that the Communist nation of Xanthal has closed borders to Trade and Import of all kind, having a self-sufficient economy and claiming to have no need for trade. As they don't want to become reliant on it.

But I think hopefully, with some discussion, those views can be changed.

...Besides, A little trade never hurt anyone, it could be quite a Lucrative Oportunitiy.

OOC: All the nations who signed up onto the Xanthalian International Advisory Committee can come and debate on this issue. The link to the XIAC can be found here: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=104561

The XIAC chamber was prepared for the meeting, and the Xanthalian representative/chairman sat behind his podium, waiting for representatives to arrive.

Jake Garren, representative from the Resi Corporation, steps out of his limo and approaches the meeting hall. Straightening his tie, he walks confidently towards the room, knowing that in a meeting about trade, everything would have to go his way. He was from a nation that's sole existance was to trade, after all, so his advice would be considered a mite biased, but he didn't care too much. He could argue his point, and that's all that mattered at a meeting like this.

Stepping into the room, Garren strode confidently to his seat, onto which he layed his coat and sat down. He would wait for the other dignitaries before making his piece, however, as he wanted to make sure that everyone was here to be effected by its full force.

Haldamir Ciryatan, the delegate from Olympus Coliseum walked in and took his assigned seat.

Princess Vora Tor Asha, the Teritoran delagate arrived and quietly went inside.

OOC; Alright, I'll be waiting untill this Evening to Start this, in an effort to get more reps involved

Torontonias would like to hold a meeting of the Xanthalian International Advisory Committee in order to discuss a new proposal: Opening Xanthals Economy to Small Trade.

We all know that the Communist nation of Xanthal has closed borders to Trade and Import of all kind, having a self-sufficient economy and claiming to have no need for trade. As they don't want to become reliant on it.

But I think hopefully, with some discussion, those views can be changed.

...Besides, A little trade never hurt anyone, it could be quite a Lucrative Oportunitiy.

OOC: All the nations who signed up onto the Xanthalian International Advisory Committee can come and debate on this issue. The link to the XIAC can be found here: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=104561

Ambassador Hansen sighed after reading the intentions of this large-scale EnComm meeting. "To each his own, I suppose. Xanthal may do as it pleases. Besides, it would boost their economy by producing their own goods.

chashen was awaikened by a pleasing, almost seductive sounding bell tone

he was still getting used to his surroundings and it was with a degree
of reluctance that he draged himself out from under the warm snuggly comforter

he had set the alarm early enough to give himself plenty of time to
eat and dress and get to the meeting scheduled for later that day

at home he would have eaten first but here he made himself dignitoraly presentable and ventured forth toward the hosting complex's dining commons.

he know his way a arround a little by now. the turbolator at the end of the hall. the 'floor' code for the dinning commons.

he rode up and sideways and forward and down and back and down some more and finaly forward again, the transparent upper walls of the car giving mostly views of tracks and machinery with the occassional glimpse of the outside scene as its tracks would sometimes negotiate and exterior wall somewhere.

...

carlemnaria's own borders though never closed to anyone or anything
other then lethal force, being nonmonitary economicly trade could
only mean a tit for tat exchange of hopefully mutual and equivelant value. such aggreements it already held with several of the other nations in its own regeon

...

government center was a bit further away then the dining commons. not so far chashen couldn't have walked it in an hour or less had he had the inclination to do so, but not so close that the turbolator alone would get him there.

having eaten a satisfying brunch he took the 'lift' to the platform of the little monorail trams that linked the city.

he prefered the common modes of mobility to any sort of special handling, weighing the risks of each, he simple prefered to see the world from the same eye level as an average person living in each place would see it from, over hearing the rumors and petty private convesations that went on but mostly juse enjoying what there was to be seen of the parklike gardens surrounding government center.

of course it ment arriving by way of what might be considered a kind of staff enterence, but carlemnarians by nature tend to be lovers of inconspicuousness.

well being dressed for a diplomatic meeting didn't exactly make all that inconspicuous there but everyone who worked and came and went that way had more or less gotten used to see that.

it was a short ways from the platform to the plusher halls reserved for such occasions
and then a travers of these to the meeting room itself

and still he arrived with less then a third of the other delegates having as yet seated themselves.

he smiled and nodded to the security at the door who by now recognized him and waved him in without more then the formality required of their post to see his diplomatic i.d. badge which he remembered just in time when geting off the tram, to take out of his pocket and pin to his vest.

he found his comfortable and by now familiar seat and watched the others arrive with varying degrees of 'fanfare' or like himself with honest and modest abscence of it

=^^=
.../\...

The Ravean delegate Wollie Varnish arrives and seats himself inside the bulding.

alphonz sits down at his assigned seat. he looks over the agenda and topic for discussion. he pulls his electronic assistant out of his attache, and places it on the desk.

"zee-go?"

"yezboss," it responds.

"connect to our net. post, crash analysis, dash, strength of state, comma, trade, comma, economy, semi-colon, extrap communism, end post. flag iridia. ping protocols." he attaches a simple earphone to the side of his assistant, and slides it off to one side.

"this may become interesting. especially if xanthal doesn't really want small trade. but, if they do, i wonder how small is small," he muses.

"Alright, discussion wil begin now, all the Delegates may be seated" Announced the Delegate from Torontonias, sitting near the head of the table.

"I have called you all to this meeting in an effort to get a New Proposal in Motion, Opening Xanthalian Borders to small amounts of Trade."

"We all know that Xanthal has a self-sufficient economy, but I think that if the borders were opened to gradual amounts of Trade, it could help stimulate new ideas and innovatons throughout the Xanthalian Empire."

The Delegate then sat down, awaiting the responce from the Assembly.

The Xanthalian representative watches with intrest. He'd have his say, but not yet.

Princess Vora rose and spoke. "I don't really see how it would open them up to new ideas and innovatons that they would not alrightly find out about from other sources and ways."

The door opens, and a woman walks in flanked by a single member of the Imperial Sovereign Protector.
"My apologies for my tardiness, Honorable Ambassadors, I am Dame Melanie de Vachel, His Majesty's Minister for Foreign Economic Affairs" she sits down and begins to carefully observe the other ambassadors.

http://www.projectbag.com/gw/pics/ladyun18.jpg
Yet another shamelessely stolen picture appears on NationStates

alphonz seems to listen to something coming through the ear phone. he looks up.

"it doesn't," he counters. "that's just something you tell the peasents, voters, and small businessmen to keep them happy." he stands up. "primarily it is about bringing money into the state. secondarily it is about alternate lines of diplomacy.

"bringing money into the state is straight forward. import/export taxes, taxes on profits made by selling/building the stuff, etc.

"but when you have trade, you've likely got two people who have rather short lines to people of power in the governments. this means you can send messages either discretely, or when more traditional methods fail."

Ah, so I am Not dealing with a bunch of uneducated Diplomats Thought the Ambassador to himself.

"Yes, the representitive from Industrialized Surfs is quite correct, although there CAN be some technological development around trade, in this day and age, it is quite rare."

"Trade does stimulate the economy however, as it produced Jobs and Money as the Nation produces Items for Export, the Price and stimulation is dependant on the Product, The demand, and the availiablity."

"Also, again as Industrialized Serfs said, it can be an option method of dipomacy when traditional methods fail."

There are very few downsides to Small trade, or trade in general, as long as the Nation does not become Overly dependant on Imported goods, it all works out. As long as the Import Expeditures do not exceed the Export Income, Trade can be quite helpful."

Again, the Representitive sat down.

Princess Vora spoke. "Depends Teritora does trade with other nations, mainly the UTP, but we had to quote the UN, a Frighting economy, opening up trade specally small trade is not nessarly going to create new jobs for some countries with extremely powerful economies alrightly only increase profits. It aslo makes it much easier to get spies into other countries as merchants."

The Xanthalian representative takes his turn. "The Dictator has stated that she is willing to accept imports into Xanthal, but only if the volume is limited and importers are willing to accept protectionist-level tariffs. Current suggestions from the Ministry of Economics range from a fifty to two hundred percent tax on imported goods. The point is, ladies and gentlemen, that Xanthal cannot be reliant on trade to keep its economy running at its best. Dependence is a vulnerability. One we are unwilling to accept. We need assurance that our economy can easily continue to stand on its own with no imports or exports."

alphonz smiles slightly. "that's their game," he thinks to himself. he removes the earphone as he stands up.

"so basically, you have swapped one apparent vulnerability for two vulnerabilities, and perhaps a more crippling one at that. economic for military _and_ economic. a self-sufficient economy doesn't mean strong. it just means that it can produce everything it needs.

"the problem is that it usually doesn't respond well to shocks. say a plant goes down for an extended period of time. either you suffer the ripple effects throughout the remainder of system. or you import the difference at protectionist tariff rates. the end result to your economy is the same.

"and there is the military component. during 'peace' time it is easy to accumulate the stock piles necessary for defense. but, unless it is a short conflict your economy will not be able support it. then guess who will be marching up the steps of the dictator's palace.

"your economy is self-sufficient. but it has to be able to support the state. it is the means towards a strong state, rather then the ends in and of itself."

"You are wise, but your argument is easily refuted. If one of the few manufacturing plants we have do go down, we will simply go without new units until it can be repaired. The biggest manufacturing industry we have is manufacturing replicators, and there are so many that the failure of one or a few will not greatly affect the long-term output. As for your argument regarding the military, it is as foolish as it is untrue. When you are in posession of the amount of resources that we are, shortages are not a problem. We have two star systems with more than adequate resources to build thousands of starships and arms for them. As for wars, space battles do not last long anyway. If somehow we were cut off from our resources long enough to run out of stores, we could go without missiles and torpedos. Our ships are quite capable of using their energy weapons to destroy foes.
"However, just for the sake of argument, let us say your assertions are correct. If an essential plant went down and we required the units, what assurance would we have that our trade partners would send, or even have the capacity to send, the units we need? Foreign goods could never make up a large enough part of our market to stop a ripple effect, or even diminish it noticably. And suppose we somehow could not support ourselves militarily; what difference would trade make? Our allies will protect us either way, and our enemies will certainly not supply us with arms when we are fighting them, no matter how much we have traded in the past.
"The truth is, Sir, that your arguments are flawed. Still, that does not mean that our minds are closed. We are still willing to trade with other nations. Do not have the delusion that we need your business though, or that we will ever need it in the percievable future."

"If I may," Dame Melanie speaks. "Honorable Ambassador, you are saying that you can shut of the valve at foreign commerce anytime you want. But most economists will wholeheartedly stand behind the oft proven theory that unless this is done within the first three to five years of the opening of a previously closed economy, it cannot be done without some kind of reprecussions, perhaps even greater than you imagine. I would draw your eyes to the example of Old Earth's Japan during the 19th Century. After being opened to the world by Commodore Perry, the burgeoning Empire tried to lock down foreign commerce repeatedly during the earlier portions of the Meiji era. All these attempts met at failure, showing that in a short amount of time foreign economics had pervaded Japanese society at a level that they could not be rooted out completely without excluding their dependent markets throughout Japan."
She takes a calming breath, "But I digress. Perhaps you could tell us what sort of markets that Xanthal is looking at allowing foreign investment and sales?"

"If I may," Dame Melanie speaks. "Honorable Ambassador, you are saying that you can shut of the valve at foreign commerce anytime you want. But most economists will wholeheartedly stand behind the oft proven theory that unless this is done within the first three to five years of the opening of a previously closed economy, it cannot be done without some kind of reprecussions, perhaps even greater than you imagine. I would draw your eyes to the example of Old Earth's Japan during the 19th Century. After being opened to the world by Commodore Perry, the burgeoning Empire tried to lock down foreign commerce repeatedly during the earlier portions of the Meiji era. All these attempts met at failure, showing that in a short amount of time foreign economics had pervaded Japanese society at a level that they could not be rooted out completely without excluding their dependent markets throughout Japan."
She takes a calming breath, "But I digress. Perhaps you could tell us what sort of markets that Xanthal is looking at allowing foreign investment and sales?"

http://www.projectbag.com/gw/pics/ladyun18.jpg

Your nation's leading political channel is Cartoon Network? Christ, you people must really take a rather... "animated" approach to things...

http://www.projectbag.com/gw/pics/ladyun18.jpg

Your nation's leading political channel is Cartoon Network? Christ, you people must really take a rather... "animated" approach to things...

Ravea delagate Woolie Varnish raises his hand to speak and stands.

"The way i see it, a little trade won't hurt Xanthal," he says. "Perhaps you can trade small amounts with countries-Choice countries of course. You could increase trade gradually until you feel that you a limit should be placed. Of course, self-sufficientcy is always a better than trading-never a good idea to depend soley on trade-but it would certienly boost your economy somewhat, and trade does wield diplomatic value.

"We are happy to trade just as long as we do not come dependant. We watched our Japanese ancestors defeated many times because of their dependence on trade. Of course, that was millenia ago, but we still hold that lesson in mind. Now, you asked what markets we are willing to open. There are many. A good rule of thumb is any market that does not constitute a necessity of living. Items of personal entertainment and vanity. You see where I am going? Just keep in mind that private transportation is outlawed here, so you will not be able to open automobile markets. Also, housing is government-controlled, so you will not be able to offer private real-estate development either. Other than that, the only rule to keep in mind is that private enterprise has been for over a thousand years and will continue to be outlawed here. This means that whatever you import and, in turn, export, goes through the government. Any other method of trade is strictly forbidden. So, with those thoughts in mind, who among you wishes to open trade with Xanthal? I will ask you to fill out a form detailing what your nation wishes to import and why, what you request in the way of take on profits, and whether you intend to use your own or Xanthalian transports to move your goods between our nations. I will bring those to the Dictator, who will meet with the Ministry of Economics and the Ministry of International Affairs to discuss specific rules and tariffs."

The Delegate from Torontonias stood up, As the nation who convened us here, I would like to be the first to say that we would like to Trade with the Xanthalians, although private enterpirse is illiegal, We would like to ship in Electronics, as is our leading industry, we are willing to pay the tariffs, and the government could distribute them among the populace.

On the other hand, We would like to Import the Replicating Technology, we have been attempting to create a running design, but so far have failed, if we could import them from Xanthal, our problem would be solved.

As for the shipping fees and actuall shipping, we could foot that, as long as there aren't long waiting times to get into Xnathalian Space.

Other than that, I feel We have accomplished what we came for. With that he sat down

OOC: I'm not quite sure what you meant in your last post Xanthal, but I think I got a fair grasp of it, I hope I'm not making a fool of myself..

ooc: replicators screw with econ theories. but then i'm not sure you can have an econ with replicators.

alphonz leans back in his chair. he smiles slightly thinking of the fodder that the xanthalian(?) de responce will generate for the analysts of the pretzal shaft. "never is a very long time, especially for a fire that hot," he thinks to himself. "but strictly forbidden usually translates to richly profitable, especially where replicators are involved."

"short of the goods and services currently available on the xanthalian international, i see no current need for trade. but, tommorow is just as inconviecable as today was yesterday."

OOC: I though I was too clear. Oh well, you got it down it seems; no contradictions.

IC: "We're always happy to export goods, but remember that whatever we export is... Patented and copyrighted, for lack of better words. What yu get from us you are not permitted to replicate, nor are you allowed to replicate any part of it."

ah replicators if i may put in a word, are like any other manufacturing tecnology in as much as the must be fed resources.
but the're precious hogbelly honeys in that you can feed them almost anything and the'll make just about anything out of it.
they won't make the hope diamond out of a lump of coal, unless you've got a whole heapin bunch of it, but the'll make all the little bity bits and pieces you could ever hope to need or want or use.

yes they have mady money as such obsolete.

i'm sure you're all familiar with the old saw, well maybe not, in this post monitary age at may be mostly forgotten, well post monitary age for many of us any way, but, where was i, oh yes, well you see the thing is currency, that is representing value symbolicly, in principal at least that's what it was supposed to have been, but at any rate, well as the story goes, the whole mess got started cause somebody figurred a pocket full of precious metal was easier to drag arround then their cow. but you see thing thing is, bein able to put the cow itself so to speak on the net, and download it to anybody's replicator periferal, just totaly bypassess the whole concept of money or need for it as such.

which is a good part of how tecnology and the ability to use it creatively came to replace money as any sort of standard of wealth the way money replaced land and land replaced nomadic herds and nomadic herds replaced skill at the hunt.

of course no such replacement is ever total, there's even a few villages in our own land that lives quite happily hunting and gathering. but now there's such a thing as being money poor just like titled nobility in some countries ended up selling their estates or turning them into tourist attractions when money came in. same sort of thing happens with money eventualy.

and i dare say there was much rejoicing without the incentives of money to treat the land all crazy and careless.

now trade, well the thing is really, you can never be too cautious about not putting some kind of arbitrary assumptions, however good they might sound or people fall in love with them, ahead of the real effects of real policies on real people, places and things.

that's the part neither capitolism nor marxism could ever get streight but the kind of capitolised socialism or socialized capitolism that kept the trains running in europe when the western hemisphere was throwing them out with the bath water for a time also kept it a place that people from all over other places, well that there was actualy something for them to come and visit for.

now in our land a person is considered wealthy on the basis of creative generousity, in that way we greatly resemble the old timey potlatching.

trade trade, well this is neither bane nor panacea. it's just one of them things. helps stimulate a taste for exoticness, that helps stimulate creativity and that part of it is certainly good. but as for avoiding dependence. no one who enters into long term trade negotions and aggreements ever remains indipendent. dependence tends to be mutual if that trade if fair and balanced. but there are big risks. especialy if the trading 'partners' are too unballanced with each other.

the history of the oil and money age is full of real life horror stories. i'm not tryna say yay or nay. just emphasizing the need for caution. and by that i mean getting the short end of the deal itself is the least of it.

=^^=
.../\...

"That's interesting, to be sure, but what does it have to do with the current discussion?"

was our microphone on?
please forgive our embarrising fox paus
i have at times an unfortunate tendency to think out loud.
i trust little i have said is of any particular news.

please proceed.

we will be more mindful of its indicator light in future.

=^^=
.../\...