NationStates Jolt Archive

"Pending the Aproval of 400 Million to Modernize Ontario's Air Force, we Request for all Nations to relay this message to there main aircraft companys:"

"We require a Fighter-Bomber capable of these Objectives."

MUST have some Air-to-Ground Capabilitys
MUST be a capable Fighter or Interceptor
MUST have a top speed of atleast Mach 2.67 and a cruising speed of atleast mach 1.81
Total Program Price: no more than 400 million Canadian Bills (400 million USD)

"if the project is secussfull and aproved by the Ontario Council, more money shall be invested for actual purpose. if the 400 Million Canadian Bill Request is not aproved, we will embark on the program our self."

"please submit your best designs."

The requirements preclude modern tech. How can it perform as both supersonic bomber and as a dogfighter, yet still be under four hundred million? This seems an impossible design.

The requirements preclude modern tech. How can it perform as both supersonic bomber and as a dogfighter, yet still be under four hundred million? This seems an impossible design.


fixed

I will refer your request to our regional Aerospace expert, Dodekistan.

(Unfortunately, my here's asleep, so he'll reply in the morning.)

F-115A Arrow(Modernized)

Primary Function: Long Range Escort and Interceptor
Contractor: Pheonix Air Systems\Canadian Aerospace
Power Plant: 2x TF420-350 35 000lb thrust turbofan engines
Length: 77'6" (23.6 meters)
Height: 21'3" (6.5 meters)
Wingspan: 50' (15.24 meters)
Ceiling: 80 000-plus feet (24 400 meters)
Speed: Mach 2.75 at high altitude
Ferry Range: 7 500 miles(12 000km) on internal fuel only
Empty Weight: 24 000lbs (10 910kg)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 84 000lbs (38 102kg)
Armament: 1xGAU-30-5 30mm gatling cannon and 4x AA-12 Adder or 4x AA-9C Amos and 4x AA-11 Archer internally or 20 000lbs of internal stores, an additional 15 000lbs of external stores can be carried on 4 on wing hardpoints
Unit cost: $56 000 000
Crew: Two, pilot and weapon systems officer
Notes:
-features most of the weapons system of the MiG 31BM, paired with an updated CF-105 airframe
-able to function as an AWACS system, flying in pickets
-capable of intercepting 24 targets simultaneously


I gotta pic too. I'll try to dig up the URL for it.

F-115A Arrow(Modernized)

Primary Function: Long Range Escort and Interceptor
Contractor: Pheonix Air Systems\Canadian Aerospace
Power Plant: 2x TF420-350 35 000lb thrust turbofan engines
Length: 77'6" (23.6 meters)
Height: 21'3" (6.5 meters)
Wingspan: 50' (15.24 meters)
Ceiling: 80 000-plus feet (24 400 meters)
Speed: Mach 2.75 at high altitude
Ferry Range: 7 500 miles(12 000km) on internal fuel only
Empty Weight: 24 000lbs (10 910kg)
Maximum Takeoff Weight: 84 000lbs (38 102kg)
Armament: 1xGAU-30-5 30mm gatling cannon and 4x AA-12 Adder or 4x AA-9C Amos and 4x AA-11 Archer internally or 20 000lbs of internal stores, an additional 15 000lbs of external stores can be carried on 4 on wing hardpoints
Unit cost: $56 000 000
Crew: Two, pilot and weapon systems officer
Notes:
-features most of the weapons system of the MiG 31BM, paired with an updated CF-105 airframe
-able to function as an AWACS system, flying in pickets
-capable of intercepting 24 targets simultaneously


I gotta pic too. I'll try to dig up the URL for it.

"Very interesting. we will purchase 2 with our own funds for testing."

PROJECT B. U. M. P. (Billions of Unnescary Miniature Posts)

They're on their way.

I have yet to find the pic but it looks basically like a normal Arrow with a bubble canopy and canards.

I believe I have an aircraft to meet your specifications. In the Dodekistan Air Force, it is designated the F/A-37 Panther.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/171203-Strikefighter.JPG

Specifications:

Wingspan: 45 feet
Length: 60 feet
Height (not from ground): 18 feet

Performance:
Maximum speed: Mach 2 (battle configuration). This can be increased by replacement of the standard engines with upgraded models, for an additional cost. The maximum altitude would also be increased in this way.
Maximum ceiling: 40,000 feet.
Maximum range: 2,000 miles.
Thrust vectoring V/STOL capable.


Armament:
1 30mm Vulcan cannon with 1000 rounds stored internally
Up to 20,000 lbs of ordinance stored on 9 external hardpoints.
Integral laser designater.
4th Generation pulse doppler air to ground radar (can lock on to 10 ground targets simultaniously).
Chaff, flare, and standard ECM package (see below).

Internal structure made of lightweight aluminum and high-strength steel. External made of a composite materials. All critical components are redundant, and the cockpit as well as beneath the engines are encased in a titanium bathtub that is impervious to rounds up to 30mm.

This aircraft is produced by Omnigeo Aerospace, based in Wasir, Dodekistan, and is scheduled to be the backbone of the Dodekistani Air Force.

This plane forms the backbone of the Dodekistani Air Force.

Cost: $80 million USD per unit, with an additional $5 million for updating your mechanics on the specifics of the aircraft.

I believe I have an aircraft to meet your specifications. In the Dodekistan Air Force, it is designated the F/A-37 Panther.

http://server5.uploadit.org/files2/171203-Strikefighter.JPG

Specifications:

Wingspan: 45 feet
Length: 60 feet
Height (not from ground): 18 feet

Performance:
Maximum speed: Mach 2 (battle configuration). This can be increased by replacement of the standard engines with upgraded models, for an additional cost. The maximum altitude would also be increased in this way.
Maximum ceiling: 40,000 feet.
Maximum range: 2,000 miles.
Thrust vectoring V/STOL capable.


Armament:
1 30mm Vulcan cannon with 1000 rounds stored internally
Up to 20,000 lbs of ordinance stored on 9 external hardpoints.
Integral laser designater.
4th Generation pulse doppler air to ground radar (can lock on to 10 ground targets simultaniously).
Chaff, flare, and standard ECM package (see below).

Internal structure made of lightweight aluminum and high-strength steel. External made of a composite materials. All critical components are redundant, and the cockpit as well as beneath the engines are encased in a titanium bathtub that is impervious to rounds up to 30mm.

This aircraft is produced by Omnigeo Aerospace, based in Wasir, Dodekistan, and is scheduled to be the backbone of the Dodekistani Air Force.

This plane forms the backbone of the Dodekistani Air Force.

Cost: $80 million USD per unit, with an additional $5 million for updating your mechanics on the specifics of the aircraft.

Looks good, but it's too big to VTOL. You could ZLTO(zero-length take off) from a ramp like was developed for the Arrow(and a few other fighters, it was never implimented however) but you would still need a landing strip, and umm... lots of spots for JATO units.

Ever notice every V/STOL fighter is small and single engined? There's a reason.

bump

Aviation Weekly Radio Show-------January 11th, 20004

"It is rumored that the Avro Arrow has returned to Ontario... as a Ultra-Modern Soviet Haaregradian-Produced Fighter Jet. it was claimed to have been spotted flying low over Toronto AFB Late last night, we will bring you the news, as it happens, this is Bobby Smith, Aviation Weekly."

Nordea offers their third generation multirole fighter JAS 39 Gripen (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/gripen.htm) for the contest. Remember, "flyger som JAS". :wink:

Nordea offers their third generation multirole fighter JAS 39 Gripen (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/gripen.htm) for the contest. Remember, "flyger som JAS". :wink:

Interesting, we will consider your entry.

Aviation Weekly Radio Show-------January 11th, 20004

"It is rumored that the Avro Arrow has returned to Ontario... as a Ultra-Modern Soviet Haaregradian-Produced Fighter Jet. it was claimed to have been spotted flying low over Toronto AFB Late last night, we will bring you the news, as it happens, this is Bobby Smith, Aviation Weekly."

"Should these rumors of the Avro being re-produced, the Armed Republic Of Nazguul will not hesitate to offer the Ontario Northlands a very hefty sum for a squadron of those planes."

Reichsmarschall Heinrich Hoefl

Ever notice every V/STOL fighter is small and single engined? There's a reason.


And what reason would that be? It certainly isn't because they are too heavy. For example, the Yak-38 Forger is a dual engined, V/STOL aircraft built for the Soviet Navy. Here's a link if you don't believe me.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/yak-38.htm

A newer dual engined V/STOL aircraft is the Yak-141. It is comperable in size to the Panther.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/yak-141.htm

Ever notice every V/STOL fighter is small and single engined? There's a reason.


And what reason would that be? It certainly isn't because they are too heavy. For example, the Yak-38 Forger is a dual engined, V/STOL aircraft built for the Soviet Navy. Here's a link if you don't believe me.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/yak-38.htm

A newer dual engined V/STOL aircraft is the Yak-141. It is comperable in size to the Panther.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/row/yak-141.htm

Those have two small engines dedicated to lifting in addition to their engine, not two normal engines. You aircraft sounds to be similar in size to an F-4, thus far there is yet to be a V/STOL fighter of that size.

I stand by my claim.


Should these rumors of the Avro being re-produced, the Armed Republic Of Nazguul will not hesitate to offer the Ontario Northlands a very hefty sum for a squadron of those planes.


Then you will want to be in contact with Pheonix Air Systems, the maker of the Advanced Arrow fighter. Their head office is in Trotskygrad, Soviet Haaregrad.

Found my pic. :)

http://haaregradia.20megsfree.com/storefront/f115_arrow.htm

Those have two small engines dedicated to lifting in addition to their engine, not two normal engines. You aircraft sounds to be similar in size to an F-4, thus far there is yet to be a V/STOL fighter of that size.

I stand by my claim.


And you continue to be incorrect.



The Yak-141 continues previous Soviet V/STOL principles, combining a lift and propulsion jet with two fuselage mounted lift jets in tandem behind the cockpit, with cruise power provided by a single Tumansky R-79 jet engine. The R-79 has a rear lift/cruise nozzle which deflect down for take-off while the two lift engines have corresponding rearward vector to ensure stability.



Main power is provided by the lifting engine, with the two smaller ones are used to keep it stable during STOL.

My V/STOL works on a similar principle. A duct in the rear third of the plane directs afterburned thrust from the air bypassing the core of the turbofan. At the same time, the exaust nozzles in the rear of the plane direct thrust from the core rotate downward in the same manner as the Su-37, providing additional downward thrust vectors.

Additionally, the Yak-141 was designed in 1975. Don't you believe it is at all conceivable that technology has advanced just a little bit? True, there has never been any aircraft the size of the F-4 with V/STOL cabability, but what's the point of designing something that has already been done? There is no point whatsoever.

A question to The Ontario Northlands...You said that you want a plane that can be both an interceptor and a fighter/bomber. I am assuming by this you mean that the plane can be retrofitted with the proper equipment to fill both roles, much like the F-15. If this is what you mean, with an engine swap and weight removal (mainly the titanium bathtubs and some redundant systems), the Panther can act as an interceptor, and while not of the same quality as a dedicated interceptor, it can still fill the role, and would be significantly cheaper than buying two completely different aircraft. I am prepared to send two test aircraft, one configured as the standard fighter/bomber, and the second in fighter configuration.

Those have two small engines dedicated to lifting in addition to their engine, not two normal engines.



The Yak-141 continues previous Soviet V/STOL principles, combining a lift and propulsion jet with two fuselage mounted lift jets in tandem behind the cockpit, with cruise power provided by a single Tumansky R-79 jet engine. The R-79 has a rear lift/cruise nozzle which deflect down for take-off while the two lift engines have corresponding rearward vector to ensure stability.




And you continue to be incorrect.

Main power is provided by the lifting engine, with the two smaller ones are used to keep it stable during STOL.

My V/STOL works on a similar principle. A duct in the rear third of the plane directs afterburned thrust from the air bypassing the core of the turbofan.

Judging by the description given on FAS, as well as your paraphrasing, my explaination was right.

You have yet to challenge my claim that there are no V/STOL fighter/attack planes with twin (forward thrust, to make what I meant obvious)engines.

Those have two small engines dedicated to lifting in addition to their engine, not two normal engines.



The Yak-141 continues previous Soviet V/STOL principles, combining a lift and propulsion jet with two fuselage mounted lift jets in tandem behind the cockpit, with cruise power provided by a single Tumansky R-79 jet engine. The R-79 has a rear lift/cruise nozzle which deflect down for take-off while the two lift engines have corresponding rearward vector to ensure stability.




And you continue to be incorrect.

Main power is provided by the lifting engine, with the two smaller ones are used to keep it stable during STOL.

My V/STOL works on a similar principle. A duct in the rear third of the plane directs afterburned thrust from the air bypassing the core of the turbofan.

Judging by the description given on FAS, as well as your paraphrasing, my explaination was right.

You have yet to challenge my claim that there are no V/STOL fighter/attack planes with twin (forward thrust, to make what I meant obvious)engines.

Those have two small engines dedicated to lifting in addition to their engine, not two normal engines.



The Yak-141 continues previous Soviet V/STOL principles, combining a lift and propulsion jet with two fuselage mounted lift jets in tandem behind the cockpit, with cruise power provided by a single Tumansky R-79 jet engine. The R-79 has a rear lift/cruise nozzle which deflect down for take-off while the two lift engines have corresponding rearward vector to ensure stability.




And you continue to be incorrect.

Main power is provided by the lifting engine, with the two smaller ones are used to keep it stable during STOL.

My V/STOL works on a similar principle. A duct in the rear third of the plane directs afterburned thrust from the air bypassing the core of the turbofan.

Judging by the description given on FAS, as well as your paraphrasing, my explaination was right.

You have yet to challenge my claim that there are no V/STOL fighter/attack planes with twin (forward thrust, to make what I meant obvious)engines.

Judging by the description given on FAS, as well as your paraphrasing, my explaination was right.

You have yet to challenge my claim that there are no V/STOL fighter/attack planes with twin (forward thrust, to make what I meant obvious)engines.


Your arguement has changed. Originally it was that all V/STOL planes are small and single engined. I have proved this fallacious. Now you are saying that a dual engine V/STOL is impossible because it hasn't been done before, although a triple engined V/STOL (although it has only one vectoring engine) has been designed and built over 20 years ago. Pardon me while I continue laughing.

I believe with my statement about how there is no point of doing something that has already been done I took care of your claim. By continously reproducing aircraft whose specifications and capabilities already exist and are in fact obsolete, one falls well behind the techonology curve. Technology in NS is allowed to advance, ya know.

And, if you want to quibble, the Yak-38 Forger is a V/STOL with two REARWARD thrusting engines. Sure, it's not comprable in size to the Panther, but you're saying that it's impossible, and the Yak-38 shows that it isn't.

"We have the go ahead from the council, how many fighters can we buy with 1 billion USD?"

Oh stop the unfruitful and needless debate about the VSTOL fighters, since it's blatantly clear that the only reasonable conclusion there is to make for The Ontario Northlands is to end up with our JAS 39 Gripens. :twisted:

The price for one JAS 39 Gripen is 54 million USD, but as a gesture of friendship and good will, we will award the Ontario Northlands with a special offer of 20 Gripens with just 1 billion USD. :)

Oh stop the unfruitful and needless debate about the VSTOL fighters, since it's blatantly clear that the only reasonable conclusion there is to make for The Ontario Northlands is to end up with our JAS 39 Gripens. :twisted:

The price for one JAS 39 Gripen is 54 million USD, but as a gesture of friendship and good will, we will award the Ontario Northlands with a special offer of 20 Gripens with just 1 billion USD. :)

Sorry, just have to defend my tech whenever it is challenged. :lol:

Gripens are excellent aircraft, however they do not have stealthy charecteristics like the Panther. It also (potentially reigniting aforementioned fruitless debate :roll:) is V/STOL cabable, and has a larger main cannon, making it more able to take on armored ground vehicles.

It seems that the Gripen is more air to air capable, while the Panther is more air to ground capable. The decision that should be made on Ontario Northlands' part is which of these seems to be the bigger concern to its own military needs.

Oh stop the unfruitful and needless debate about the VSTOL fighters, since it's blatantly clear that the only reasonable conclusion there is to make for The Ontario Northlands is to end up with our JAS 39 Gripens. :twisted:

The price for one JAS 39 Gripen is 54 million USD, but as a gesture of friendship and good will, we will award the Ontario Northlands with a special offer of 20 Gripens with just 1 billion USD. :)

Sorry, just have to defend my tech whenever it is challenged. :lol:

Gripens are excellent aircraft, however they do not have stealthy charecteristics like the Panther. It also (potentially reigniting aforementioned fruitless debate :roll:) is V/STOL cabable, and has a larger main cannon, making it more able to take on armored ground vehicles.

It seems that the Gripen is more air to air capable, while the Panther is more air to ground capable. The decision that should be made on Ontario Northlands' part is which of these seems to be the bigger concern to its own military needs.

"we have decided that we will chose the Grippen, As we are need of Air-To-Air capability."

*1 Billion USD For 20 aircraft wired on confirmation*

Oh stop the unfruitful and needless debate about the VSTOL fighters, since it's blatantly clear that the only reasonable conclusion there is to make for The Ontario Northlands is to end up with our JAS 39 Gripens. :twisted:

The price for one JAS 39 Gripen is 54 million USD, but as a gesture of friendship and good will, we will award the Ontario Northlands with a special offer of 20 Gripens with just 1 billion USD. :)

Sorry, just have to defend my tech whenever it is challenged. :lol:

Gripens are excellent aircraft, however they do not have stealthy charecteristics like the Panther. It also (potentially reigniting aforementioned fruitless debate :roll:) is V/STOL cabable, and has a larger main cannon, making it more able to take on armored ground vehicles.

It seems that the Gripen is more air to air capable, while the Panther is more air to ground capable. The decision that should be made on Ontario Northlands' part is which of these seems to be the bigger concern to its own military needs.

"we have decided that we will chose the Grippen, As we are need of Air-To-Air capability."

*1 Billion USD For 20 aircraft wired on confirmation*

Order confirmed. We congratulate the government of the Ontario Northlands for a superb decision on the matter. Nice making business with you. :)

A first batch of 5 of the total 20 Gripens will be flown to you right off, and the rest will be delivered as soon as our production lines pour them out. This should take no longer than 1 NS year, as everything is ready for the manufacturing to begin.

Judging by the description given on FAS, as well as your paraphrasing, my explaination was right.

You have yet to challenge my claim that there are no V/STOL fighter/attack planes with twin (forward thrust, to make what I meant obvious)engines.


Your arguement has changed. Originally it was that all V/STOL planes are small and single engined. I have proved this fallacious. Now you are saying that a dual engine V/STOL is impossible because it hasn't been done before, although a triple engined V/STOL (although it has only one vectoring engine) has been designed and built over 20 years ago. Pardon me while I continue laughing.

And, if you want to quibble, the Yak-38 Forger is a V/STOL with two REARWARD thrusting engines. Sure, it's not comprable in size to the Panther, but you're saying that it's impossible, and the Yak-38 shows that it isn't.

The Yak 38 has two nozzles, one forward thrusting engine. Next you're going to claim the Harrier has four.

Your arguement has changed. Originally it was that all V/STOL planes are small and single engined. I have proved this fallacious. Now you are saying that a dual engine V/STOL is impossible because it hasn't been done before, although a triple engined V/STOL (although it has only one vectoring engine) has been designed and built over 20 years ago. Pardon me while I continue laughing.


I'm done arguing with you. :lol: