Misconceptioms about Letila
Anarchy is chaos. It can't work.
I'm afraid you have got the definition of anarchism wrong. It has worked in some form before. Hunter gatherer societies are often not far from it.
The Tu'lîmû aren't human.
All genetic tests show they are. Children of Tu'lîmû and non-Tu'lîmû are capable of having children. Haven't you noticed Tu'lîmû traits(women with really big butts, tightly curled red hair) appear in non-Tu'lîmû? How can deny it?(Hint, hint, Sino)
Letilan tech is godmoding. The economy can't support it.
And elves aren't? Let's face it. The game is made by staunch capitalists. It is full of capitalist and statist assumptions. I think a little bit of RPing against them isn't wrong.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
Hunter-gatherer societies had a clear and defined social structure that started when we were more ape than man. It wasn't anarchy in any sense of the word. There was a set of unwritten codes that they followed, though they were not called laws or did they posses anything that could truly be called government for the most part.
The point is that there was little if any government or even social classes. Anarchism is based around a lack of hierarchy or authority. Social structure can exist, actually, if it's non-hierarchial.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
Soviet Haaregrad
02-01-2004, 05:53
Well... an anarchist economy would only produce what is needed, so there would be no trade, basically, yeah, an anarchist economy would be pretty bad, but everyone would have what they need.
Starships are needed, though. Remember that. I'm just trying to dispell myths about Letila and it's people.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
Super American VX Man
02-01-2004, 06:01
Only if you were in a place with everything that you needed (not exactly the most commonplace situation).
Soviet Haaregrad
02-01-2004, 06:04
Starships are needed, though. Remember that. I'm just trying to dispell myths about Letila and it's people.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
I doubt anarchists could come together well enough to produce starships tho...
Nianacio
02-01-2004, 06:05
Letilan tech is godmoding. The economy can't support it.
And elves aren't?Yes, they are.
You don't have enough faith in other political ideologies. Just because you don't subscribe to them doesn't mean they can't work. I don't subscribe to statism at all, but I admit that it works, if not too well. Who says you need a leader to construct a spacecraft? Actually, most of the manuafactoring process of Letilan spacecraft happens in Adejaani.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
Tag... I'll comment on Anarchism tomorrow when the time isn't 5:09am.
At the risk of getting into an interminable (and pointless [1]) debate [3], I'd like to refer people to http://www.livejournal.com/users/lazrus_armagedn/157736.html
And *before* anyone says "That's just semantics", of *course* it's f*cking semantics! If I'd *known* you weren't actually interested in what anyone had to *say*, but just wanted to hear to the sound of your own voice, I wouldn't have bothered responding to you in the *first* place!
[1] No that's *not* a tautology [2]
[2] Although that note *is* a syllogism
[3] Why change the habits of a lifetime and stop *now*, just when I'm hating it?
Starships are needed, though. Remember that. I'm just trying to dispell myths about Letila and it's people.
<SIG Snipped>
I don't understand.
Why exactly are starships needed? The only way I can think of starships being needed is if all your people live on space stations and live as scavengers in space. Otherwise an anarchic society would probably stay on a planet meeting their needs only. If you say that they are exploring space that would mean they must have a hierarchy of some kind making decision/organizing things.
Btw: Have you read Frederick Engels' On Authority? (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm) He bring up some good points on why a lot of anarchic theories are hypocritical.
If the planet gets too polluted by other, more capitalist organizations, nations, etc. then we'll be glad that we have them.
I'm not a Marxist, though. Anarchism bears some resemblences, but I don't subscribe to Marxism.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
Santa Barbara
02-01-2004, 18:59
OOC: Elves aren't really a godmod, except when calling upon their "elf powers" as a sole basis to win wars or battles ('my elves survive your attack cuz they're immortal and elven gods support them and smite thee!').
I can't say for sure about your tech as I have never seen any of it.
Isla de Penguinata
02-01-2004, 19:27
I'm a little confused. Letila, what exactly is your definition of Anarchism? :?
Santa Barbara, first of all, only idiots would do that. :P Elves don't have "super-human powers", and aren't totally immortal. They can only be killed by grief or being slain. Anyone who knows anything about elves know there aren't "elven gods". If they're talking about LOTR elves. :P
Sorry, I had to rant about that. :wink:
Soviet Haaregrad
02-01-2004, 19:45
I'm a little confused. Letila, what exactly is your definition of Anarchism? :?
Santa Barbara, first of all, only idiots would do that. :P Elves don't have "super-human powers", and aren't totally immortal. They can only be killed by grief or being slain. Anyone who knows anything about elves know there aren't "elven gods". If they're talking about LOTR elves. :P
Sorry, I had to rant about that. :wink:
Pah, FR elves are way better then LotR elves, mearily because they have less that can be called godmoding, they aren't immortal, just long lived. DnD/FR>LotR.
Santa Barbara
02-01-2004, 19:46
Santa Barbara, first of all, only idiots would do that. :P Elves don't have "super-human powers", and aren't totally immortal. They can only be killed by grief or being slain. Anyone who knows anything about elves know there aren't "elven gods". If they're talking about LOTR elves. :P
Sorry, I had to rant about that. :wink:
Of course, but you have to realize that the idiot factor is always present in NS and must be accounted for. By elven gods, I merely meant the Tolkien gods and supercharacters like the Valar, etc.
Anti-Nihilism
02-01-2004, 19:54
Greetings!
I've decided in the interests of rational and, well, interesting debate, to join in this political discussion. So here I set forth my opinion, not claiming it is any more correct than anyone else's, simply that it has been thought out as well as I am capable and is based on only my logic and experience.
Anarchism as a social method is workable but not neccessarily any better than any other social system. My reasoning is as follows. Assuming good social structure to be that which is best for all citizens (and often this is not the case due to corruption and personal aims), the next step appears to be to decide who is capable of deciding what is best for the group. In a (feudal type) monarchy, it is assumed that the king and nobility are best. In a dictatorship, it is the dictatorship and followers who are supposed to know best (this merely as a description of an advocate of the method's justification, and rarely the case). In a religious state, it is the church, in a representational democracy the elected representatives, and in delegational democracy it is the majority.
It is often necessary that for the good of the governed party the governing party should impose it's will over the governed. A case to cite: today I saw a mother disciplining her child. The child wanted more sweets - the mother believed that the child was risking her long term health in eating any more. The mother imposed her will by physical force, i.e. restraining the child and removing the sweets from sight. Now this was a direct form of control, but at the same time is often considered the correct form of action. Why? The mother could have simply let the child learn for herself the error of her ways by allowing her to become obese. However, the child would not have understood that this was a problem until far too late, when damage had been done to her health. This is because she lacks the ability to form an opinion about what is best, for herself, and for her society, and to be right about her ideas.
Anarchy is right in that it assumes, correctly, that at this time *no one* has the ability to decide what is best better than another person. Sometimes a decision is correct, sometimes it is not. Certainly, some people are better at deciding what is best than others, but there is no infallible guarantee that they will be right all the time. Moreover, even if a dictator governed perfectly, the lack of autonomy felt by each individual would make it a poor form of government in itself.
The solution, therefore, is to create a society of people who are governed by those who are *best at deciding what is best for the society*. And since having one's will over-ruled is uncomfortable and makes for distress, the best way of going about this is to have no-one's will over-ruled, i.e. for everyone to decide en masse what should be done. However, this is impossible, since people do not agree on how something should best be done, and may come up with two equally valid methods of doing it which are both equally good. To be possible, every single individual in a society must become infallible, which isn't going to happen.
At present, it is my belief that a society should aim at making its citizens better at deciding for themselves what is best. As this occurs, more citizens will form the (or a) correct opinion as to what should be done, and thus less people will be over-ruled by a majority vote. What is best will be done with minimum distress over loss of autonomy.
So improving social and political education is the best course of action for any nation to take.
This is essentially the case within my own nation, which is run on a grass-roots basis. The smaller the group and more familiar the group, the less likely it is for disagreement to occur. So there are small localities, larger regions, districts and counties. At the lowest level a small group decide what needs to be done, taking votes if necessary. Each has a delegate for the locality, who represents them at regional council. A delegate from regional council represents them at district, a delegate from district at county, and a delegate from county at national level. An imperfect form of government, but as I believe I have already illustrated, there is no perfect form of government.
Isla de Penguinata
02-01-2004, 20:10
Santa Barbara, first of all, only idiots would do that. :P Elves don't have "super-human powers", and aren't totally immortal. They can only be killed by grief or being slain. Anyone who knows anything about elves know there aren't "elven gods". If they're talking about LOTR elves. :P
Sorry, I had to rant about that. :wink:
Of course, but you have to realize that the idiot factor is always present in NS and must be accounted for. By elven gods, I merely meant the Tolkien gods and supercharacters like the Valar, etc.
Yes, always. To Men, the Valar are gods, but in reality they are not. :P (I'm actually suprised I remember that much so far!)
Anarchy, depending on what type of Anarchist you talk to, is either against coercive authority/hierarchy, or against all statist authority.
On another point, Anarchy is not the lack of laws, that is chaos, Anarchy would more accurately described as the lack of a leader.
A question for Letila...if you are an Anarchy (like myself, though you have more freedoms) how is private enterprise illegal? And your nation is also described as having an "omnipresent, corrupt, liberal government" which makes it difficult to tell where the govt. stops and the rest of society begins.
Letilan tech is godmoding. The economy can't support it.
And elves aren't?Yes, they are.
here here.
OOC: Elves aren't really a godmod, except when calling upon their "elf powers" as a sole basis to win wars or battles ('my elves survive your attack cuz they're immortal and elven gods support them and smite thee!').
or, for instance, my elves are immune to biological weapons because elves are immune to disease. or, my elves have superior tech because we're 32000 years old.
re: anarchism, as i say, there is nothing more authoritarian than a revolution, and anarchism is tyranny in its purest form. in all 'anarchistic' society, people are regularly shunned if they move outside of the social norms, and are simply not fed if they don't pull their own weight. study congo pygmies, australian aboriginies, the various amazon tribes to see what really goes on in these affluent utopias.
there has never been anything near a working anarchist society of any scale, and it's a non-sequitter to have a spontaneously organized modern society that avails itself of economies of scale. anarchists could never build space ships because they'd be stuck in the copper age; or at least that's where we left to gits.
A question for Letila...if you are an Anarchy (like myself, though you have more freedoms) how is private enterprise illegal? And your nation is also described as having an "omnipresent, corrupt, liberal government" which makes it difficult to tell where the govt. stops and the rest of society begins.
Game mechanics. They don't allow for elves or mediævil time period, but people don't let that stop them.
re: anarchism, as i say, there is nothing more authoritarian than a revolution, and anarchism is tyranny in its purest form. in all 'anarchistic' society, people are regularly shunned if they move outside of the social norms, and are simply not fed if they don't pull their own weight. study congo pygmies, australian aboriginies, the various amazon tribes to see what really goes on in these affluent utopias.
First, need I point out that if you don't pull your weight here, you don't get fed? If you are unlucky enough to be born in the lower class, you may not get fed either. Of course, lower class people can't afford health care, so you probably won't live that long anyway. As for social norms, we have those, too. If you are gay, you are shunned. If you are "uncool", then in most schools, you are shunned. I never said anarchism was utopian anyway. Those examples only show that it's possible to exist without a government or capitalism.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
OOC: Elves aren't really a godmod, except when calling upon their "elf powers" as a sole basis to win wars or battles ('my elves survive your attack cuz they're immortal and elven gods support them and smite thee!').
OOC: Bah... Iuthia has about 3% of it's population as "Elven"... if you want to know what type of Elves we use, it's simple... they are basically humans who:
Have pointy ears...
Slightly shorter, yet generally slimmer.
Never die of aging... however they do grow old and age, they just don't die of it.
Are slighty more dexterous then humans, yet they don't have the endurance or constitution.
Better Eyesight, but not like that stupid Legolas... they can just see a little better. They also only need 4 hours meditation instead of sleep.
Their fertility rate is much lower then humans, to make up for their lack of aging and long lives.
They take alot longer to grow up... they become adult at aroung 100 yrs.
Other then all of these, they arn't really magical or super... they just have some pro's and cons...
I hope I've corrected most misconceptions about Letila.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
First, need I point out that if you don't pull your weight here, you don't get fed? If you are unlucky enough to be born in the lower class, you may not get fed either. Of course, lower class people can't afford health care, so you probably won't live that long anyway. As for social norms, we have those, too. If you are gay, you are shunned. If you are "uncool", then in most schools, you are shunned. I never said anarchism was utopian anyway. Those examples only show that it's possible to exist without a government or capitalism.
well, i never said KSM was perfect, and you sould know i'm rarely its defender. KSM's crappiness does not excuse these shortcomings in another society. you seem to suggest that because anarchism is as culturally authoritarian as modern Kist society it's okay. if that's your attitude, why bother changing at all?
either way, let me emphasize this point:
Those examples only show that it's possible to exist without a government or capitalism.
what examples?
what examples?
The hunter gatherer societies.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
OOC: What does your space fleet consist of right now Letila?
1 battleship, 7 cruisers, 14 frigates, adn 50 fighters.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
The hunter gatherer societies.
are you high? that would be great IF THE WORLD WERE MADE UP OF 100 PERSON TRIBES, instead of six billion people. figure it out.
OOC: Oh please, just ignore Letila, will you?, he's like a pain in the neck. I could say here one hundred reasons of why elves are not godmodding, and he won't believe me...I could say here one hundred reasons of why a hunter society won't have the capability of building spaceships, and he still would say that's ok. I could even say here one hundreds reasons to invade Letila and raze it to the ground...but it's just worthless.
Oh please, just ignore Letila, will you?, he's like a pain in the neck. I could say here one hundred reasons of why elves are not godmodding, and he won't believe me...I could say here one hundred reasons of why a hunter society won't have the capability of building spaceships, and he still would say that's ok. I could even say here one hundreds reasons to invade Letila and raze it to the ground...but it's just worthless.
Letila is not a hunter gatherer society. They were mentioned as examples.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
OOC: But you use the same economic and manufacturing system. It's the same thin regarding spaceships....
Ignite
Global
National
Ortillery
Rocket
Engines....
FIRE!
:D
How are elves(which don't exist) not godmoding and anarchists(which do exist, they were fairly successful during the Spanish revolution but were crushed by the fascists) godmoding?
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.
Santa Barbara
03-01-2004, 22:43
OOC
Neither is a godmod.
But elves that behave like Seocc and I described, are. Similarly, anarchist societies that build spaceships are iffy. I mean who is doing the building? Who maintains the infrastructure to get the parts and equipment to where they need to be? Where do the money and designs come from, and why? If these questions don't have reasonable answers than I'd say yes, it's a godmod, but I'm old fashioned, I still think that having more than a couple hundred spaceships is a godmod.
But elves that behave like Seocc and I described, are. Similarly, anarchist societies that build spaceships are iffy. I mean who is doing the building? Who maintains the infrastructure to get the parts and equipment to where they need to be? Where do the money and designs come from, and why? If these questions don't have reasonable answers than I'd say yes, it's a godmod, but I'm old fashioned, I still think that having more than a couple hundred spaceships is a godmod.
A lot of it's automated, so that makes it easier. Most of the ships are made outside of Letila and are given to Letila in exchange for technology, smaller products, etc.
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Kûk‡xenisi n!ok‡x'osi xno-k‡xek‡emi.-The state only exists to serve itself.
"Oppose excessive military spending, yet believe in excessive spending on junk food and plastic surgery to make all your women look like LARDASSES!"-Sino, when I criticized excessive military spending.
http://www.sulucas.com/images/steatopygia.jpg
I'm male. Note the pic of attractive women.