NationStates Jolt Archive


Combat Support Ratios [Strictly OOC]

Vrak
18-12-2003, 06:58
Combat support ratios

I've been toying around with several approaches in fleshing out my military while trying to remain realistic. That is, I'm trying to fit in the very necessary combat support services which include, among other things: logistics, procurement, high command, research and development, and additional admin support. Keep in mind that this approach has not been meshed with the actual costs of said equipment.

One spread sheet had the number of 39% to include all of this. With aplogies to the author, I can't figure out how that number was arrived at so I essentially used some parts of it while discarding the rest.

Basically, I came at this with the idea of ratios. That is, a support ratio of actual fighting personnel as opposed to combat support personnel. I define "combat support personnel" as including the following: logistics, procurement, high command, research and development, and admin support. The categories of procurement, and research and development will most likely never be found on the field directly engaging the enemy. Will some scientist holed up in his lab suddenly grab his handy gun and go? If things got that desperate I would think that the local police, reserves, and citizen milia would be called up first.

This also means that I'm aware that if 1% of the total military personnel are involved in R&D and procurement (with quite a bit say being done by the civilian sector) it doesn't necessarily mean they will be getting 1% of the military budget. It would be safe to say that they get quite a bit more. Same with unique or special equipment - such as nukes.

So, using a population of 1.7 billion and one half of one percent (0.005) = total military personnel I get 8.5 million. I then divide it like so: 60% Army, 20% Navy, 20% Airforce, 10% Special (all the weird stuff)

Army = 5.1 million
Navy = 1.7 million
Airforce = 1.7 million
Special = 850 000

Some guidelines for my ratios. Generally, the more complex the equipment the more support I feel it needs. The more crew it takes to operate something will also require more support.

I'm also keeping in mind a statement made by William S. Frisbee Jr. ( a US Marine Non-Commisioned Officer and a squad leader.)

http://web.qx.net/warcat/milsf/

"It has been said that for every fighter there are five to twenty rear echelon non-combatants that support him and the other rear echelon non-combatants. Cooks, finance clerks, lawyers, chaplains, doctors, dentists, military intelligence specialist, cargo plane and helicopter pilots, military police, technicians, mechanics and more.

Logistics is the life blood of a military. If logistics is poor or nonexistent than the fighters will be severely vulnerable and unable to fight effectively."

So a light infantry soldier with AK-47, pistol, and gear needs a support ratio of 1:3 while an aircraft carrier is 1:50. Keep in mind I tried to translate these ratios covering all the branches of the military while keeping it simple. As well, it is assumed that the combat support doesn't need more support itself! It's built in the system. Finally, these numbers don't need to be whole numbers either. 1 soldier requiring 2.5 support works equally well and would be incentive for me to increase efficiency - like any large organization does. It's not like a squad of 4 troops have 1.6 people following them around.

Army

Light infantry 1:3
Medium infantry 1:4
Heavy infantry 1:5
mechanized 1:10
artillery light 1:5
artillery heavy 1:10
flying assets (helicopters, etc...) 1:20

Navy

Anything below a destroyer 1:20
destroyer, frigate, cruiser, sub 1:30
battleship, aircraft carrier 1:50

Airforce:

aircraft (older):support 1:20
aircraft (new):support 1:30

*debatable about the aircraft (or anything else for that matter) being older needing less support I suppose. If something keeps breaking down then it could be argued that it needs the same as a newer, fancier piece of equipment.

This seems to help me get a feel for how much I can actually field in accordance with how much support is required. So yeah, a large light infantry army could be done (5.1 million divided by 3 = 1.7 million) but that means zero ships, tanks, aircraft, etc...

I get some pretty bizarre figures though. A single Kreml class Aircraft Carrier Cruiser with a total crew of 2626 (1960 crew, 626 airgroup, 40 signal) has a support of 131 000 personnel! I don't know how much overlap is going on here, but to me it means that having 10 of these babies is testing the limits of my support and most likely, a very lopsided navy.

I'm also mindful that if I'm in a war footing, raising infantry would be the easiest. After all, the more complex the equipment usually translates into a longer training time. I would say it would be very doubtful for anyone who's country is under attack to suddenly field 30 magically appearing aircraft carriers, complete with experienced air groups.

As well, does civilian support get included in the military totals? I recall a recent IRC chat and so far, it was inconclusive.

I welcome your input and sorry for the monster post.
Roania
18-12-2003, 07:00
*Decides it doesn't matter, because the Roanian military is Roania's largest employer, and gets more money then any other sector.

Especially since the Roanian police are part of the military
Siosia
18-12-2003, 07:09
Some of these numbers are rather strange. For example - on an aircraft carrier, do you designate the 1:50 ratio from fighting men to non-fighting men? Very often, the "fighting men" are doing some of the manual labor, and furthermore, I would venture to say that if that was the standby you were moving by, then there would be a small handful of actual "fighting men" on the Aircraft carrier. Maybe 150-250?
Vrak
18-12-2003, 07:22
I include the entire crew as "fighting" since they are out on the front lines. But yes, I see what you mean. The cooks, mechanics, etc... are all combat support. I'm trying to take into account the other stuff such as when the ship docks (resupply, etc...) as well as the five categories earlier mentioned: procurement, high command, logistics, R&D, and admin support.

I'm not really keen on detailing entire flowcharts of command. The nitty gritty details bogged me down before so I'm trying an overview type of approach.
Guinness Extra Cold
18-12-2003, 07:36
The following is a good example of what combat support services are expected to do as well as give you an example to factor in.

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/4-0/toc.htm

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/query/download/ARTEP+10-449-30-MTP

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/63-11/tocfin.htm

http://www.adtdl.army.mil/cgi-bin/atdl.dll/fm/63-2/toc.htm

http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/news/.www/status.html

For more info on navy requirements TG Evil Overlord or join the RP university for his logistics class.

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=2

http://www.af.mil/factsheets/factsheet.asp?fsID=147

I could provide a summary of what these sights say but since I don't like you VRAK, I will let you suffer the hell of acronyms and military talk. :D
Vrak
18-12-2003, 07:44
OOC: You big meanie GEC!

*takes out calculator and paper*

This ratio business may be a bit more to it than I thought. Damn!
Vrak
18-12-2003, 09:58
=== Bump for input ===
Wombat News
18-12-2003, 11:29
I don't have the technical knowledge to really assist on this, BUT:

I then divide it like so: 60% Army, 20% Navy, 20% Airforce, 10% Special (all the weird stuff)

:shock:

You divide it and get 110%! That's like ... wow!! Awesome!!

LOL,

WN
Tom Joad
18-12-2003, 14:47
I'd say the special is just listed seperately just because it has different support ratios even though those special assest will be in one of the mentioned branches.
Vrak
19-12-2003, 00:23
I don't have the technical knowledge to really assist on this, BUT:

I then divide it like so: 60% Army, 20% Navy, 20% Airforce, 10% Special (all the weird stuff)

:shock:

You divide it and get 110%! That's like ... wow!! Awesome!!

LOL,

WN

OOC: Damn that cursed Wombat! I meant 50% Army. Yeah...er...that's it. :lol:

*mutters about having to change all the figures in my fancy charts. Mutter mutter mutter. Damn "new math"*

8.5 million * 0.5 = 4.25 million army personnel
Vrak
19-12-2003, 00:47
I'd say the special is just listed seperately just because it has different support ratios even though those special assest will be in one of the mentioned branches.

Okay. Right. So 10% of my special branch is 850 000 personnel. This branch takes care of all the unique items, such as nukes, etc... and consequently, the support ratios will vary widely here - which is what I think you were driving at. So the 64 000 dollar question is - what is the support ratio for a nuke?

I should mention that one fellow telegrammed me and said that to the best of his knowledge, civilians are not included in military personnel totals. Mind you, and here I'm guessing, but I would think that they would be included in military budgets. After all, if Boeing delivers a new plane for the airforce ultimately it's the taxpayer that pays for it.
Vrak
19-12-2003, 02:56
== Bump for more input. As well, thanks to all who have posted so far and ones who have sent me telegrams. ===
Vrak
19-12-2003, 02:56
ARGH! Damn double posts! Okay. That's it. Everyone go and buy Max's book today so he can get a new server. Or something. :D
Copiosa Scotia
19-12-2003, 03:09
I don't have the technical knowledge to really assist on this, BUT:

I then divide it like so: 60% Army, 20% Navy, 20% Airforce, 10% Special (all the weird stuff)

:shock:

You divide it and get 110%! That's like ... wow!! Awesome!!

LOL,

WN

Well, duh. The special forces are invisible. :P
Vrak
20-12-2003, 03:49
== Last Bump for more input ==
The Evil Overlord
23-12-2003, 12:48
Arithmetic problems aside (110%?), the first thing that strikes me is the complexity. In order to reduce the amount of number-crunching involved, I generally recommend that people use the basic engineering principle KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid).

However, you know your frustration tolerance better than I.

For simplicity's sake, I generally use the 10:1 ratio for support units to combtants. In real life, it's not quite so cut and dried. Warship crews have very few people actually shooting guns or firing missiles, but the entire crew count as combatants. In the same manner, Marines assigned to Navy Base security are technically combatants, but their primary mission is support, so that is how they are listed.

The major exceptions to the usual 10:1 ratio are Special Forces units. SpecOps require a lot of support, so I assume a 20:1 ratio for them.

I always say that it is most important that your military be internally consistent. If you are willing to do the math, by all means go for it. But get a calculator. :P

If you have any specific questions, feel free to TG me.

TEO