NationStates Jolt Archive

<OOC: I've had enough of seeing storefronts clog up the front page of the International Incidents forum, run by players who have no concept of roleplaying or economics. So, with this post, I hope to either improve the quality of roleplay in these "storefronts" (why a nation would set up a storefront for any random nation to purchase its products bewilders me...) or discourage players from buying or making one.

Let me begin.

Firstly, several problems with current storefront threads:

Roleplay is, at best, mediocre. Nations will post "I'll take 50 granade launchers" or "Give me 10 M1A1 tanks". That's total bullshit in my honest opinion and players who lack the intellectual wit to realize that no national leader would make a random statement like that concerning the an international purchase. Furthermore, these nations don't even specify that they're national leader or a defense official is speaking. Last time I checked nations consisted of at least five million people -- NOT one person. So this first-person reference stuff has got to stop. It's just outright annoying.
Next to zero profit. Nations sell unimaginable amounts of [most military] equipment per day [let's say one NS year]. They undersell, often never even considering that profit plays into things. No one even considers that in order to build these Abrams, they need to 1.) PAY the workers who make them 2.) PAY for the materials needed to build whatever it is they are selling 3.) PAY for the tools to actually build whatever you're selling. Oh yeah, and if you sell 50,000 tanks a day, you're gonna need alot of workers. And if you wanna have enough money to pay those workers, you'll most likely need to cut their wages. Which means lower quality products. Read this for further details on why storefronts don't equal huge profits. (http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80256)
As mentioned just above this point, most of these products are going to be of low-quality because more workers at lower pay = crappy quality result. But I'll just pay them loads of money to increase worker happiness and the product's quality! Uh... then you're going to need to raise the final product's export price... and not many nations are willing to make HUGE purchases of pricey vehicles/rifles/toliets/etc. Most will go to another storefront to buy the cheaper [and most likely crappier quality] vehicle/rifle/toliet/etc. Uh-oh! You just lost a shitload of money mass-producing those! :cry:
Lack of common sense. Now, who the hell is going to sell their Super-Duper Power Tank, in large quantities, to any random nation? Really? Do you really want to distribute such a valuable technology to nations you DON'T EVEN KNOW??? Use your brains.


There. Now, for some statistics! Yeah!

Top Arms Exporters (in billions of dollars) 1997-1999
1.) USA $91.5
2.) UK $15.7
3.) France $15.7
4.) Russia $7.9
5.) Germany $4.5
6.) Sweden $2.9
7.) China $2
8.) Canada $1.6
9.) Israel $1.6
10.) Ukraine $1.5

WOW! Notice how the US doesn't even sell 500 billion dollars worth of military arms over three years? And nations are making that much (and even more) daily [yearly, NS time]!

Weapons Delivered Worldwide 1997-1999
TANKS: 3,100
APCs: 5,987
SURFACE SHIPS: 326 (64 major, 262 other)
SUBMARINES: 14
AIRCRAFT (supersonic): 1,147
AIRCRAFT (subsonic): 120
AIRCRAFT (other): 590
HELICOPTERS: 602
SAMs: 6,717
SSMs: 132
ANTI-SHIP: 818

:shock: Yet, nations sell at least 10x this over the period of one NS YEAR. Scary, eh? Think about what you're doing next time you decide to open a storefront and realize how dumb and unrealistic it'll be.

My two cents.

What you say does make sense, but, isn't it safe to say that NationStates can differ from reality a little, or in this case, I suppose, a lot? 'Tis just a game.

What you say does make sense, but, isn't it safe to say that NationStates can differ from reality a little, or in this case, I suppose, a lot? 'Tis just a game.

There's still the componet of lack of good RP in storefront threads. Not only our they detrimental to realism, but to RP also -- which is the most important part of NS!

Another annoying rant: I see dozens of nations selling R.L items, which are of course, open-tech. Storefronts are supposed to be selling indigenous items.

Another annoying rant: I see dozens of nations selling R.L items, which are of course, open-tech. Storefronts are supposed to be selling indigenous items.

Well, a nation RPing as a RL nation (or in and around that area) can sell RL items if they wish. Hell, even a nation that RPs its recent history as part of a RL nation can sell such weapons. My opinion on the lack of orginality: no imagination or general understanding in that aspect. That's why I usually never make my own weapons, and if I do -- I co-produce them with an ally.

And yes, RL tech is open-tech as you stated.

BTW,

Another annoying rant

My rant was longer. :wink:

Roleplay is, at best, mediocre. Nations will post "I'll take 50 granade launchers" or "Give me 10 M1A1 tanks". That's total bullshit in my honest opinion and players who lack the intellectual wit to realize that no national leader would make a random statement like that concerning the an international purchase. Furthermore, these nations don't even specify that they're national leader or a defense official is speaking. Last time I checked nations consisted of at least five million people -- NOT one person. So this first-person reference stuff has got to stop. It's just outright annoying.Think of it as a two guys in the arms business casually talking about big sales for the governments they represent...Or, maybe not...
Next to zero profit. Nations sell unimaginable amounts of [most military] equipment per day [let's say one NS year]. They undersell, often never even considering that profit plays into things. No one even considers that in order to build these Abrams, they need to 1.) PAY the workers who make them 2.) PAY for the materials needed to build whatever it is they are selling 3.) PAY for the tools to actually build whatever you're selling. Oh yeah, and if you sell 50,000 tanks a day, you're gonna need alot of workers. And if you wanna have enough money to pay those workers, you'll most likely need to cut their wages. Which means lower quality products.I don't take much profit on my stuff because my stores are intended to get weapons to the newbies. I do take a huge profit on my steel, though.
As mentioned just above this point, most of these products are going to be of low-quality because more workers at lower pay = crappy quality result. But I'll just pay them loads of money to increase worker happiness and the product's quality! Uh... then you're going to need to raise the final product's export price... and not many nations are willing to make HUGE purchases of pricey vehicles/rifles/toliets/etc. Most will go to another storefront to buy the cheaper [and most likely crappier quality] vehicle/rifle/toliet/etc. Uh-oh! You just lost a shitload of money mass-producing those! :cry:My stuff is fairly low tech, so it can be built without much skill.
Lack of common sense. Now, who the hell is going to sell their Super-Duper Power Tank, in large quantities, to any random nation? Really? Do you really want to distribute such a valuable technology to nations you DON'T EVEN KNOW??? Use your brains.Once someone asked me if I could sell something for people who have more than a little pile of lint, and I said no...I wanted to keep all the good weapons to myself.
WOW! Notice how the US doesn't even sell 500 billion dollars worth of military arms over three years? And nations are making that much (and even more) daily [yearly, NS time]!I only get a few sales a month. :cry:

Heck, I havn't got any sales yet even though mine are mostly original stuff :( . Guess all the bad and dirt-cheap stuff outcompetes all the good stuff.

There's still the componet of lack of good RP in storefront threads. Not only our they detrimental to realism, but to RP also -- which is the most important part of NS!

I don't disagree with you there! ;)

I agree, and having attempted a storefront myself I don't know how some players get enjoyment out of it.

International trade should be more generalized, not like "I want 100 grenade launchers" or "give me 10,000 aircraft carriers, pronto," but using the broader ideas of trade routes and agreements. That is much more fun, and it reintroduces the concept of nation simulation to the game. It isn't, after all, small business simulation.

I am rather inclined to think that one may as well ignore the "I want ten thousand M16s" players as not worth playing with. There's no point complaining about that, I'm afraid. I mean, unless it makes you feel better, which is fine.

However, the use of the USA as some sort of benchmark is again silly. Oh no! Not a two month old nation with a third rate economy! -Walmington on Sea accidentally annexes the USA- And it is worth considering that even small regions such as Walmingtopia have populations approaching that of the entire real world- NS markets are thousands of times larger (of course that increases the number of vendors too, but not to an even degree).

Anyway.. I don't really have a lot more to add, because the idea of a Walmingtonian "storefront" is.. not likely to go anywhere.

I agree somewhat with Santa Barbara's notion, I think.. with exceptions. Negotiating specific trades between states that have established some sort of relationship makes a lot of sense.

Folk could do with at least explaining who the heck is making their products though. Considering half or more of the NS world is pro-capitalist there's a lot of state-manufacture of goods going on. No wonder Stockley Motors can't compete.

But the "I want ten thousand M16s" players are the ones who make up a good majority of the purchases at storefronts.

Also fun how the "RPing" in those threads consists of:

"I want 20,000 M1A2s. Fifty bajillion dollars wired."

three seconds later...

"I invade [nation] with 20,000 M1A2s! While building a space station!"

I already made a post detailing part of this(the profit margin) and I'm working on it's sequel, "So Why Can't I Sell Every Fighter Jet on My Storefront?"


Why storefront sales don't equal huge budgets
:arrow: http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80256

The only store front I am familiar with have been ones selling things that had nothing really to do with the miltary but were intresting like the Teritoran thread selling dragons, trained wyverns and other dangerious and exotic animals for various reasons. Its a old thread but it was rather a fun one.

Why don't we just make a seperate forum for storefronts? Surely we'll have enough room when the Powers take the Inevitable Step of Enlightenment, by which I mean the destruction of General.

I believe that the first thread advertised "storefront" was made in mid/late March...that's because I made it.

What was this first "storefront"? It was a place to sell my indigenously-produced, made-up (self-designed), and time-limited trimaran warships.

I wasn't the first to sell items through a thread, but I was one of the first to sell more than one product and to actually call it a storefront.

A Note:

1) Generally, "opentech" items should not be sold. Exception cause: most new nations don't have the capacity to produce the simpler ones. Exception to the Exception: that lasts <1 month, and if you're too small to make complicated weapons systems (Exceptions to all IRL: Israel, PRNK, most of Europe...don't get me started) then you should probably avoid getting into wars with more advanced nations...it's a losing proposition.

2) Some items produced IRL should NOT be considered Opentech because they are rarely known.

3) Most items in RL are either something that should be produced as Opentech or should only be produced by 1-3 countries. Example: The Abrams MBT. Produced: USA, nowhere else. If people are buying this tech as though they couldn't make it themselves then they shouldn't buy it from anyone who didn't make it up in the first place (yes, this favors the older countries; yes, that would suck; yes, that's why we follow Opentech; yes, that's why the billions of NS T72s shouldn't have been made by non-Eastern Bloc (ex-USSR, spec. Russia + Ukraine) countries.

I play in the ME, mostly as Israel in the near/mid-near future...hence I tend to focus on weaponry that Israel would use if it had a world-ranged military force...mostly based on existing designs and lines of weaponry.

4) Storefronts SHOULD be original (for reasons stated above). PLEASE don't just cut+paste from globalsecurity. Do I get stats from there and elsewhere? Yes, but I also put some quality into describing the use of the system...stats matter little if you don't know what the (non-stat-based) systems of the unit are!

5) Most nations make ONE or TWO weapons for each use...the US is an exception because citizens have previously been able to buy automatic weapons (and may get to again soon) and because american weapons have been seen as 'quality' weapons throughout the world (yes, so have some soviet weapons, but not most). You SHOULD NOT be making every type of tank in existance!!! If it is a family of tanks then there is nothing wrong with clearing out old inventory or selling lower-tech weapons systems to others...but you should probably never be selling both American and Russian tanks, planes, or other 'main item' equipment

('expendables' such as missiles are less strict, although your systems would need to be adjusted to handle and control the alien systems, and smaller items (like assault rifles and MGs) are also ok...but you shouldn't be selling both AKs and M16s).

-------

I made my "storefront" because I felt that it would encourage people to enjoy the designs I'd developed. Some people complained that I didn't have enough raw stats or pictures. I had, however, all of the necessary stats on hand (crew size, armoring, armament, general size, special capabilities) and focused on explaining the benefits of the design. No pictures there (although I now often link to images of my inspirations) and still few raw stats. My storefront has been much less often frequented by others, but the buyers have certainly appreciated my goods more.

There has always been a waiting time to get goods, there are always costs involved with preparations and shipments (usually 1-4% of the cost of goods...notice that most arms deals will sell jets that cost the US $40M at about $50+M/unit...), and, when ships are not pre-built, it takes a good time for the limited facilities to construct the full fleet of vessels.

To accomodate, I had my shipyards decide to pre-produce ships so that the most popular designs could always be available (1-3 ships of each popular type were made)...sometimes rush orders were taken out of the WA navy when the navy was in peacetime (newer technology and systems could, by this means, be fast-tracked into the Western Asian fleet at lower cost).

I did not make storefronts for simple items that everyone had. Sometimes I sold vertical-launch missiles, but most buyers were assumed to have the capability to make the systems without aid.

A note: NO profit should really go to any nations. Companies in arms manufacturing tend to pour their profits into infrastructure improvement, expansion, and new R&D. Your nation would likely not be spending a private company's money buying arms from competitors...even government-owned companies won't produce such pay-offs for the government. Profits go into R&D, upkeep, improvement, and, yes, tremendous salaries (in size and volume, don't even try to explain how slave labor gives you better products)...if it's government-owned then you might get reduced arms costs for your own military and greater control over the direction of arms developments.

As for foreign markets, you probably won't sell to possibly hostile states...if you're a small state with a special brand-new laser weapon then you probably don't want to sell any to your hostile (or possibly hostile) neighbor. Arms ARE, however, a GREAT international relations tool...sell at cost (or reduced profit) to garner good will and support. And always remember to keep your weapons above those that you sell (unless you can be absolutely sure that they won't use them on you (why the US sells top-quality stuff to Israel, UAE, and Saudi Arabia)...otherwise sell them the stuff you're retiring).

In terms of reducing costs by increasing volume, that only works to an extent...more expensive systems will grow dramatically more expensive in small lots, but an AK will tend to cost the same if 10,000 or 100,000 are manufactured...less tech=less margin


--------

Er,
It's been suggested, it's been hoped, that the "storefront" forum be made...it has yet to be made.

bumpfrizzle

bumpshizzle

Hey whoa, I put a lot of time into making my storefront realistic, and I'll take any criticism with an open mind.


None of your complaints really apply to me, since I price realistically, manufacture realistically, have realistic tech, use real math to figure stats and specs, and I only sell tech that no one else has, using my own pics... some of which have never been seen on NS, some I have drawn on my computer.

Go ahead, see for yourself:

http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/rsig1.jpg (http://www.bateshome.com/jordan/)

Your weapons are very orginal (and quite cool if I may add), but the point still stands: storefronts are crap RPing. Also, the point still stands about selling these arms to random nations who say that they can afford it.

Why don't we just make a seperate forum for storefronts? Surely we'll have enough room when the Powers take the Inevitable Step of Enlightenment, by which I mean the destruction of General.

No, kill NSII no one uses that forum.

Your weapons are very orginal (and quite cool if I may add), but the point still stands: storefronts are crap RPing. Also, the point still stands about selling these arms to random nations who say that they can afford it.I make sure they can afford it ;) And the store fronts are not an RP, they are just part of the game... the stuff you BUY from the storefronts goes into RP.

Why don't we just make a seperate forum for storefronts? Surely we'll have enough room when the Powers take the Inevitable Step of Enlightenment, by which I mean the destruction of General.

No, kill NSII no one uses that forum.Umm, then what would be the point in destroying it? If general was gone, we would lose 2/3 of the peple on the board ;)

Your weapons are very orginal (and quite cool if I may add), but the point still stands: storefronts are crap RPing. Also, the point still stands about selling these arms to random nations who say that they can afford it.I make sure they can afford it ;) And the store fronts are not an RP, they are just part of the game... the stuff you BUY from the storefronts goes into RP.

Storefronts can be considered as international trade. Plus, II is strictly IC... so if you're saying storefronts are all OOC threads -- well, then they should be outlawed (and kept PRIVATE).

Why don't we just make a seperate forum for storefronts? Surely we'll have enough room when the Powers take the Inevitable Step of Enlightenment, by which I mean the destruction of General.

No, kill NSII no one uses that forum.Umm, then what would be the point in destroying it? If general was gone, we would lose 2/3 of the peple on the board ;)

Stay on topic, guys. :wink: Besides, I think we should just purge the general forum -- we don't want the stupid generalites clogging up our RP forums.

Your weapons are very orginal (and quite cool if I may add), but the point still stands: storefronts are crap RPing. Also, the point still stands about selling these arms to random nations who say that they can afford it.I make sure they can afford it ;) And the store fronts are not an RP, they are just part of the game... the stuff you BUY from the storefronts goes into RP.

Storefronts can be considered as international trade. Plus, II is strictly IC... so if you're saying storefronts are all OOC threads -- well, then they should be outlawed (and kept PRIVATE).wrong. I did not say they were OOC.

They are IC, but they are not necessarily RP in the normal sense. When in a storefront, you are automatically either posting IC as a president or secretary of defense etc, and you don't need to say so... it is understood. You can make ooc comments as well, just be sure to mark them OOC.

Still, the fact stands that international trade is RP! Non-rp IC threads are more informational threads (my army, factbook, races in your nation). But when you have a storefront, you are ROLEPLAYING the role of a nation selling goods.

International trade is fine. Storefronts, in essence, are outright lame. It would be much better for nations to create their own trade threads whereas they list items (both military and non) and make general trade agreements. You can still announce the development of a new weapon (to show off of course :wink: ) and state that it will be for export soon (then add it to your trade thread). Just my opinion.

Still, the fact stands that international trade is RP! Non-rp IC threads are more informational threads (my army, factbook, races in your nation). But when you have a storefront, you are ROLEPLAYING the role of a nation selling goods.

International trade is fine. Storefronts, in essence, are outright lame. It would be much better for nations to create their own trade threads whereas they list items (both military and non) and make general trade agreements. You can still announce the development of a new weapon (to show off of course :wink: ) and state that it will be for export soon (then add it to your trade thread). Just my opinion.Umm, you're talking about national exports etc... most of the storefronts out there are from corporations, not the governments. People DO have trade pages too, but everyone just says "oh, I have that in my country" anyway, so its no fun...

Storefronts can affect IC economy as well.

Then, wouldn't the corporation need permission from the gov't to export the goods. That can be included in the RP portion. Also, the ones buying the weapons will certainly need governmental approval. Brief references of transportation and money wiring (not *money wired*) can be included too.

No representative of a nation is going to say, "Give me 50 grenade launchers, 10 tanks, 40 F-16s, oh, and a bag of Skittles too."

This isn't an actual "store", remember. It's an offer, an opportunity, for other nations to make arms transfers.

Then, wouldn't the corporation need permission from the gov't to export the goods. That can be included in the RP portion. Also, the ones buying the weapons will certainly need governmental approval. Brief references of transportation and money wiring (not *money wired*) can be included too.

No representative of a nation is going to say, "Give me 50 grenade launchers, 10 tanks, 40 F-16s, oh, and a bag of Skittles too."

This isn't an actual "store", remember. It's an offer, an opportunity, for other nations to make arms transfers.come on, no one is going to seriously RP all of that out for every customer...

Then, wouldn't the corporation need permission from the gov't to export the goods. That can be included in the RP portion. Also, the ones buying the weapons will certainly need governmental approval. Brief references of transportation and money wiring (not *money wired*) can be included too.

No representative of a nation is going to say, "Give me 50 grenade launchers, 10 tanks, 40 F-16s, oh, and a bag of Skittles too."

This isn't an actual "store", remember. It's an offer, an opportunity, for other nations to make arms transfers.Yeah, well storefronts are leniant when it comes to that.

If you are going to get after storefronts for something, tell them to stop giving out production rights! I recently realized this stupidity and stopped it, posting IC reprocussions from the lost jobs :)

A note: NO profit should really go to any nations. Companies in arms manufacturing tend to pour their profits into infrastructure improvement, expansion, and new R&D. Your nation would likely not be spending a private company's money buying arms from competitors...even government-owned companies won't produce such pay-offs for the government. Profits go into R&D, upkeep, improvement, and, yes, tremendous salaries (in size and volume, don't even try to explain how slave labor gives you better products)...if it's government-owned then you might get reduced arms costs for your own military and greater control over the direction of arms developments.


What I've done is create a puppet company: Virgin Aerospace is a company based in _Taiwan.

New Genoa: Here's a simple concept. If you dont like the RP, don't participate in it. I dont see where you get off publically criticizing other's RP. If you dont like it, don't role play with them. Obviously they enjoy it because they are the one's doing it.

There are many different forms of role playing. Not all of them are character based or extensively long plot threads. To each their own.

New Genoa: Here's a simple concept. If you dont like the RP, don't participate in it. I dont see where you get off publically criticizing other's RP. If you dont like it, don't role play with them. Obviously they enjoy it because they are the one's doing it.

There are many different forms of role playing. Not all of them are character based or extensively long plot threads. To each their own.*applauds*

what about nations that are corporations? for example i am the conglomorate of Armacor, i used to have a storefront (in december) but quit the boards (in feb) and came back now... now i could repost it, but CBF.

what about nations that are corporations? for example i am the conglomorate of Armacor, i used to have a storefront (in december) but quit the boards (in feb) and came back now... now i could repost it, but CBF.

Read my above thread. Pay your corporate taxes to your HQ nation.

Yeah, obviously, the government WOULD receive a percentage of the corporation's profits, simply because of taxes...

I agree, and having attempted a storefront myself I don't know how some players get enjoyment out of it.

I have attemped a storefront too, and got some good roleplaying experience out of it, and created a few charicters. I was selling as a private company within my country and individual people on both sides of the transactions wrote a lot of IC letters! Once I started confirming orders IC people cought on and started making IC posts. Plus my original post read like a sales brochure, so that helped set the professional tone.

International trade should be more generalized, not like "I want 100 grenade launchers" or "give me 10,000 aircraft carriers, pronto," but using the broader ideas of trade routes and agreements. That is much more fun, and it reintroduces the concept of nation simulation to the game. It isn't, after all, small business simulation.

I disagree. Trade agreements are good things to have and a trading partner is the first step to a trusted ally. But this is freeform roleplay and you can roleplay small businesses inside your country if you want. Just make a distincition. Or the government (for communist, socialist countries) can sell the weapons.

Why don't we just make a seperate forum for storefronts? Surely we'll have enough room when the Powers take the Inevitable Step of Enlightenment, by which I mean the destruction of General.

A Storefront Forum has been suggested before. And it is a good idea. What we need are more forums, not less. Do you want 800 pages in one forum? No, spread them out over many forums so people can go where they want. And to the people who don't like International Incidents: if you think it is horrible, imagine how much worse it would be if all the II threads and the NS threads were crammed together. No thread would get the recognition deserved. And storefronts would be popping up more in NS. And if General went, just imagne all the OOC threads ....

Then, wouldn't the corporation need permission from the gov't to export the goods. That can be included in the RP portion. Also, the ones buying the weapons will certainly need governmental approval. Brief references of transportation and money wiring (not *money wired*) can be included too.

No representative of a nation is going to say, "Give me 50 grenade launchers, 10 tanks, 40 F-16s, oh, and a bag of Skittles too."

This isn't an actual "store", remember. It's an offer, an opportunity, for other nations to make arms transfers.come on, no one is going to seriously RP all of that out for every customer...

Hold sessions that last for several RL days. RP their arrivals and discussions about the products (purchases, how they work, etc.). Adjourn the session whenever necessary (close the storefront basically for a day or two) and begin a new session. Simple.

heck, if you did that for every prospective customer, you wouldn't have time to RP anywhere else.

My aerospace company, Virgin Atlantic, only sells to Taiwan's close allies.

OK, some background. My country is "The Incorporated States of Tirocinium" because it is a network of corporations and consortia. The government as such is just one corporation, and mostly a holding company at that. Arms are made by a consortium that includes in its members the government. They're now looking, very hard, into exporting arms to other NS countries.

I want to do an arms selling thingy because I like designing stuff, and think I do at least OK at it. I'm not looking to make my country rich, or godmodding, or any of that. I think it might be fun.

And I really, really want it to be good RP. So I've been reading this thread and others from the last few weeks, about "storefronts" and their problems. I do appreciate the critiques, and I've got some idea of what to avoid. But --- I haven't really seen anything really helpful about what to do. What not to do, yeah, but not that much of what to do.

Now, I'm not picking on you, New Genoa, but I am going to use a quote from you because I think it illustrates one aspect of this problem.

Storefronts, in essence, are outright lame. It would be much better for nations to create their own trade threads whereas they list items (both military and non) and make general trade agreements. You can still announce the development of a new weapon (to show off of course :wink: ) and state that it will be for export soon (then add it to your trade thread). Just my opinion.
OK, so just what is a "trade thread", if it lists items and makes trade agreements? That sounds like a "storefront" to me. Sure, a "storefront" where the goods available are described IC, and where some "character" (or more than one) is the "head of sales" or whatever title you use. But, it amounts to a govt. and/or a corporation offering arms etc. for sale. I'm not clear on what difference you're making here. Perhaps you have a thread you could post a link to? Because with just this, I am seeing nothing but an unworkably vague "it ought to be thus, not thus"; that's nothing I can really build off of, nothing I can take and use. And that, I'm afraid, is the level of advice I've seen just about everywhere.

Another part of the problem I'm having with the critiques I've seen is that some are treating the "I'll buy 2000 Ubertanks. Money wired" dopes as if they're the fault of the OP, and/or of the basic idea of a country and/or corporation selling arms "in public". There's nothing the OP can really do about them --- after all, though it's lousy RP, it would be rude as hell to ignore them, and pointing out how bad the RP is would just fill up the thread with OOCage. If I do start a selling thread, I will stay as IC as humanly possible, including responding to such guck with thoroughly IC posts. But, "buying" posts of such kind won't be my fault, and any decrease in overall RP quality can't be completely prevented. Unfortunately, nearly everyone I've read who complains about "storefronts are RP" lump the OP in with the responders.

Now, any constructive ideas about encouraging better RP from responders will be appreciated (though I doubt much can be done beyond answering them in full-on IC). However, the attitude I've seen many have or come close to of "it's bad RP innately" is not any help to anyone.

I do not hold with "if you can't give constructive criticism, don't give any" --- if a condition is bad and no one is paying any attention to it, then simply complaining is a valid response. But, if many who might be able to do something about it are paying attention, then simply complaining is no onger enough. Suggestions for improvement are much more appropriate.

Now, some might say that sufficient attention is not being paid to the problem. I won't debate that. However, *I* am paying attention (for whatever that may count), and I would dearly love to see some ideas for how to make a good selling-thread. Note, I'll be hung before I'll call mine a "storefront". ;)

Hold sessions that last for several RL days. RP their arrivals and discussions about the products (purchases, how they work, etc.). Adjourn the session whenever necessary (close the storefront basically for a day or two) and begin a new session. Simple.

To make a purchaser go through this from one seller is a bit excessive, IMO. Particularly if the purchaser is looking for a bunch of tanks, or a few jets or something.

For a purchaser who is looking for a company (or corporate country) to be the major or sole supplier of all arms, for the forseeable future, yeah, it might be OK. But for a single purchase? Way more time and effort than is "realistic".

This might be an interesting idea, if you got together a dozen or two of NS's more prolific, and more RP-oriented, arms sellers. That, IMO, would be really fun.

/me watches tumbleweeds roll past.
/me listens to crickets chirp.


Question: it seems to me that RL nations don't do their deals in public. What does everyone think about doing most of the buying/selling via TGs?

/me watches tumbleweeds roll past.
/me listens to crickets chirp.


Question: it seems to me that RL nations don't do their deals in public. What does everyone think about doing most of the buying/selling via TGs?

Sounds good to me.

that is why i consider storefronts to be effectively OOC, because the deal was done in private, this is just to show to other nations, who may be involved with us at a future date what we own, its stats, and where it came from...

othewise there is nothing to stop a 1Mo nation buying their full budget worth of stuff from more than one person, or even just not buying it but saying they have it...

Plus storefronts are really not the best way to make deals. Arms deals are done with some secrecy. Plus a storefront does not work out for me. A terrorist organization would like to make arms deals on the black market. That would be, IMHO, a black market arms deals, where governments could sell stuff "secretly" (things can only be soo secret in the NS world without hindering RP) to a terrorist organization like myself

To understand where I am coming from, here is a thread outlining what I am (yes this is a shameless plug http://www.nationstates.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=106227&highlight=)

Basically, that would be cool, to set up a black market sort of storefront. Maybe make it a closed RP. (if my terrorist organizatoin got a hold of a black market nuke, who knows what would happen)

A few (more) points:

Secret sales are perfectly possible even with 'storefronts'...I, for one, have made over a dozen large-scale, long-term secret sales to one nation that faced trade restrictions. By using the shipment of previous orders, the forgery of related delivery documents, and the use of 'fortunate accidents' Western Asia's government was able to support that friendly government.

Records were kept of most of the sales and deliveries, but those were all done by TM.

IMHO, storefronts are basically the reflection of the general arms market...deals are fairly public knowledge, even if not publicly so. But TM deals are always possible and are a reflection of the more secretive deals that are sometimes made.

Noone should ever sell to those who might be, within reason, future enemies...but just in case, never sell the best goods to those that are of uncertain loyalty. Also, it is nice to have some special 'goods' available to your best friends although not to your best customers. In at least one case (Sniper Country vs. Omz), a very close ally was involved in a war with a very good customer and friendly country (the alliances of each made options for intervention very slight and, eventually, it was OOC'ly agreed upon that I would remain neutral). But, SC, having access to all of my products, has some edge in departments where Omz has yet to acquire goods (although the end of the war will likely mean some more purchases).

Good luck with your continuing deliberations.

My thanks to everyone who has posted. I'm holding off on "opening" my "store" until I hit 500 million, or the 4th of Jan, whichever is later.

I'll be keeping all the good advice in mind when I do.

Oh, and I'm waiting for freewebs to cease their ano-cephalic behavior. :P

Secret sales are perfectly possible even with 'storefronts'...I, for one, have made over a dozen large-scale, long-term secret sales to one nation that faced trade restrictions.
Very true, as in RL. It was fully exercised by Iran (to get some replacement parts for its F-4/F-5/F-14 after arm embargos I believe), or North Korea (it is believed that they have sold missiles secretly to some countries). Secondly, these trades can also be created using loopholes of the agreement/treaty/etc. that enforces the restrictions.

In at least one case (Sniper Country vs. Omz), a very close ally was involved in a war with a very good customer and friendly country (the alliances of each made options for intervention very slight and, eventually, it was OOC'ly agreed upon that I would remain neutral). But, SC, having access to all of my products, has some edge in departments where Omz has yet to acquire goods (although the end of the war will likely mean some more purchases).

At least I didn't use your goods against SC... for now :twisted:
Also, purchases? If you mean those preorders, then I'll see, although obviously I can't really buy your stuff anymore (without the orders thing).

Hell, I'm not going to open a new thread to sell some guns to some guy! And I'm sure as hell not going to RP selling a car to somebody.

THIS IS CALLED "FREE"FORM ROLEPLAYING. THIS IS NOT CALLED NEW GENOA ROLEPLAYING.

If everyone RPed a tiny little sale with one customer, this forum would be flooded with horrible little minute RPs that no one can get involved in (Well, it already is) and there would be NO room for GOOD ROLEPLAYING that everybody can participate in. Stop trying to be such a goddamn perfectionist forcing your views on everyone else. This game is supposed to be pretend! We're not going to hold an International Summit to sell someone a thousand Assault Rifles. This topic is a waste of space, and in my opinion, New Genoa, you are a perfectionist focused on changing everyone's style of RP to your liking.

This has been an official SMACKDOWN ON YO' ASS! by Foe Hammer

THIS IS CALLED "FREE"FORM ROLEPLAYING. THIS IS NOT CALLED NEW GENOA ROLEPLAYING.
Yes, free form. But if you really goes to the detail, I would even say "I n00k you with 2 million nukes" is freeform RPing -- only in poor taste. Certainly, would you call "ill buy 200,000 of your jetfighter :D " a "good roleplaying procedure"?

If everyone RPed a tiny little sale with one customer, this forum would be flooded with horrible little minute RPs that no one can get involved in (Well, it already is) and there would be NO room for GOOD ROLEPLAYING that everybody can participate in.
Who ever said weapon purchases shouldn't be good RP? Isn't this forum (mainly NS/II sections) designed for roleplaying?

Stop trying to be such a goddamn perfectionist forcing your views on everyone else. This game is supposed to be pretend! We're not going to hold an International Summit to sell someone a thousand Assault Rifles.
How is this perfectionist-like? And no, for small arms it is unnecessary to have a "international summit". But if you want realistic and logical roleplaying, it would be good to have nations going to the negotation table for a sale of say... an aircraft carrier. Look at the Russian sales of an aircraft carrier to India, it took months of negotations just for a sale of an used aircraft carrier.

And again yes, this is freeform roleplaying. But this will improve roleplaying, that is the difference.

This topic is a waste of space, and in my opinion, New Genoa, you are a perfectionist focused on changing everyone's style of RP to your liking.
It is not just New Genoa's liking. Many other people also has voiced concern for the concept of these "storefronts". This isn't a waste of space, it teaches people about alternatives to storefronts, which will not result in piss-poor roleplaying.

THIS IS CALLED "FREE"FORM ROLEPLAYING. THIS IS NOT CALLED NEW GENOA ROLEPLAYING.
Yes, free form. But if you really goes to the detail, I would even say "I n00k you with 2 million nukes" is freeform RPing -- only in poor taste. Certainly, would you call "ill buy 200,000 of your jetfighter :D " a "good roleplaying procedure"?


No, it's not good RP procedure. Certainly if someone came into my storefront and said that I'd either have them say it correctly, like -
"Hello. The nation of [Blah] would like to purchase 400 of your [whatever]. We have estimated the total to be [$$$]. If you will sell these to us, how soon can we expect delivery?"

-or, if what he first said was n00bish enough, I'd just say, "Get out."

Also, purchases? If you mean those preorders, then I'll see, although obviously I can't really buy your stuff anymore (without the orders thing).

Won't Melky let you off of that thing yet? You haven't posed and threat to him since then nor is there anything nearly organized to attempt such an assault again.

He is not 'forcing his views' upon people, but rather informing people of his views. People can choose for themselves whether they wish to heed them or not.
I personally see nothing interesting about someone saying: "Hello. The nation of [Blah] would like to purchase 400 of your [whatever]. We have estimated the total to be [$$$]. If you will sell these to us, how soon can we expect delivery?"
It is roleplay, true, but it is some of the most boring roleplay I can imagine.