NationStates Jolt Archive

It seems many of you confuse true communism with its rightwinged pseudoforms such as Stalinism. So i will (try to) explain what Communism is.

There were several theorists who had idea's of how to establish a society in which property was to be divided between everyone. there interpretations of socialism were diffenrent but the fundamental idea of socialism was always the same.

When Europe was flooded by short liberal and nationalist revolutions Karl Marx(1818-1883) and his assistent Friedrich Engels(1820-1895) published "The communist manifest" calling upon the "Spirit of communism". It was a challenge to use the word communism as it had an extreme and more revolutionary undertone, eventhough there was (at that point) no real written explanation for the word(neither was there for socialism).
After the failed revolutions of 1848, Marx and Engels fled to England where they wrote the famous book "Das Kapital" next to a set of other political, economical, historical and philosopical works.
According to Marx the decisive factor in history had been a number of quarrels between diverse social classes.
The development of the middle-age econmy for example led to a capitalist classe that (industrials and such) who eventually got strong enough to overtrhow the feodal classe of landowners. Marx predicted that the industrial development would create a strong working classe(proletariat) that, at its turn, would overtrhow the capitalist classe.
Marx believed that fundamental changes could only be achieved by a revolution that took power from the capitalist classe by force. The victorious workers were to establish a temporary dictatorship (Dictatorship of the Proletariat) until socialism was well incorporated into the society. All posibility to create and repartition the property, was in the hands of the workers. Once socialism had brought wealth, Marx thought, the society would go into higher communist phase. The people would be free to take and use all services and products they needed.

The revolutionary parties remained small and Marx created the "International Workers Association"(1864) to coordinate the different organizations, logical development because Marx considered the struggle for socialism an international effort. National loyalty was irrelevant, workers from different nations had more in comon than workers and capitalists from the same nation.

During the second International Workers Association, there were several conflicts, the "Deutsche Social Democratische Partei" had gotten alot of followers and the party got stronger in the Reichstag (German parliament). It seemed that socialism could be reached in a more peaceful way. Orthodox Marxists saw the parliamentary way as revisionistic, they argumented that the capitalist classe would never allow the fundamental changes and the profit of the workers would always remain small/insignificant.
From that point socialism and marxism were different from eachother.

Marx considered the Paris Commune as the first step to a revolution troughout the whole world, even when the commune had only vague socialist idea's, they organised comités of Intellectuals, workers and small bussinessmen. This is where the word communism comes from.

How does communism work? You will read that in the next chapter
This is the second time i write this, the first time i lost everything so i am writing in chapters now.

THANK you! :) Maybe people will stop echoing anti-communist propaganda nonesense now.

How does communism work (practical)?

Best example would be Russia, it will allow me to explain what went wrong and why the USSR was not a communist state.

the only party to take orthodox Marxist idea's was the Russian Social democratic party that undermined the Russian war effort, the tsarist leaders were incompotent, the administrative and transportsystem were a failure what resulted in a badly equipped demoralized army. This became worse when the munk Rasputin was killed by conspirators, it was said that Rasputin had a bad influence on the government.
February 23 1917 was the day a strike begun in Petrograd, that quickly changed into a general strike in the whole country. Soldiers in the capital refused to act against the strikers and when the generals at the front had no interest in supporting the Tsar, he stepped down on March 2. Nicholas II tried to give the throne to his brother Michael who realized that the situation was hopeless and refused.

The Tsar had created the Doema(Russian parliament) in 1916, it had no real power but the members came together after the Feb-revolution and created an interim government that would govern until free elections were held. The Doema, led by Prince Lvov, was made up out of conservatives and liberals mostly, the only socialist was Alexander Kerensky. They started several democratic reforms but most cases such as the Tsars property, the church and the Landowners were considered long term problems.

The Sovjets were much more powerfull however, the Soviets (councils) were full of Soldiers, sailors, farmers and workers, who were directly chosen. The most important Soviet was the Petrograd Soviet, seated in the Smolny institute.
They cooperated with the government, the government adapted and socialist ministers were alowed, Kerenski became minister of war. Kerenski lost support from the socialists and bolsheviks when they dissagreed with the ways Kerenski used to fight the war.

The Bolshevik party was a true Marxist party, they believed that they should stay in the opposition until Russia had grown into an industrialized nation (Russia was 90% agricultural in 1917) so that they could start their revolution.
When Lenin(Vladimir Iljitsh Ouljanov) returned from exile he convinced the Bolsheviks that they should wait no longer, Lenin became one of the most famous revolutionary leaders because of the way he could discuss and persuade.
They tried a revolution in the summer but it failed, Trotsky and Lenin had to hide from the government, meanwhile farmers started to partition land. They could not wait for the promised reforms, soldiers deserted the army to claim their share.
On the night of 24-25 Octobre the bolsheviks started their revolution, without bloodshed because most soldiers and workers supported the Bolsheviks, the winterpalace was taken and the government sent into exile.
A congress of Bolsheviks created the Comissaries of the people, with Lenin as leader. This new government started nationalizing land, bank, and private property from the landowners.
The Bolsheviks also kept to their promise of true elections for the Constituent, a parliament that would create a new consitution. During these elections the socialist-revolutionaries(non-Marxists) received the majority of the seats while the Bolsheviks held only a quarter of the votes.
This Constituent was allowed to come together in January 1918.

This is how far communism(if you can call it communism) got in Russia, as you can see elections were held and a parliament was formed, Marx never wanted(neither did he expect) there to be leading figures such as Lenin, as these might be to willing to be in power(the flaw that made communism a failure in Russia, must say that Trotsky was an intelligent and nice guy, probably why Stalin wanted him out).

When the Constituente came together the Red Guard drove it apart again, appearantly the Bolsheviks did not want to share power. They made a constitution of their own diving political power to the Soviets, but the Soviets remained under supervision of the Communist party (thats how the Bolsheviks cxalled themselves from then on) who opressed all other parties. Excuse me but from this point we speak of dictatorship. Hitler called himself a reborn Christian but then what Christian wants to commit genocide?

During the civil war of 1920 the Bolsheviks lost most of their ideals and started force a military discipline upon the workers and take the surplus of grain from the farmers. Offcourse the Bolsheviks lost support, so they took out anyone with contra-revolutionary idea's and created a one-party system. From this point we speak of Stalinism, as Stalin continued this practice in the late 1920s.

If there are questions, ask them. Remarks or corrections are welcome.
I might explain Mao Zedong etc if i feel like it. Its alot of typing

I might explain Mao Zedong etc if i feel like it. Its alot of typing

Ahhhh, go on, go on, go on... :D

I know quite a bit about the Russian & Cuban revolutions but very little about China etc...

:D :D :D

you can't go wrong with mao

do it!! :)

The Bolshevik party was a true Marxist party, they believed that they should stay in the opposition until Russia had grown into an industrialized nation (Russia was 90% agricultural in 1917) so that they could start their revolution.

A slight correction is needed. The Bolshevik Party was not the party that believed that the revolution should wait until industrialisation. That was the Menshevik party. The Bolsheviks were the ones who thought that Russia could shortcut history and go straight from Feudalism to Socialism without going through capitalism.
The Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks were once a part of the same party that split in two after a debate on this very issue.

OOOOHHH How informative :D

Very well explained! Congratulations!! :D

This will probably end those stupid confusions of marxism with stanlinism.

(BTW, You could also speak about Vietnam and Chile's Allende)

The Bolshevik party was a true Marxist party, they believed that they should stay in the opposition until Russia had grown into an industrialized nation (Russia was 90% agricultural in 1917) so that they could start their revolution.

A slight correction is needed. The Bolshevik Party was not the party that believed that the revolution should wait until industrialisation. That was the Menshevik party. The Bolsheviks were the ones who thought that Russia could shortcut history and go straight from Feudalism to Socialism without going through capitalism.
The Mensheviks and the Bolsheviks were once a part of the same party that split in two after a debate on this very issue.

They were in the same party, i agree to that, both however had the same idea of the Marxist revolution. The Februari revolution came to a complete surprise for the Mensheviks, but none the less they took advantage of it and started the soviets, something the Bolsheviks refused. The Bolsheviks went into the opposition.
Many Bolsheviks therefore believed they had to wait and stay in the opposition until Russia became an industrialized state

Will do Mao, as requested.

several points i think should be clarified.

When Europe was flooded by short liberal and nationalist revolutions Karl Marx(1818-1883) and his assistent Friedrich Engels(1820-1895) published "The communist manifest"

Engels was hardly an assistant to Marx; it was Engels that funded Marx's autodidactic hermitage, and Engels was by far the superior sociologist of the two. Engels has many important articles in his own right, and contributeds most of the social and cultural arguments against capitalism. Marx created the framework, but ultimately was only an econmiest; Engels gave the Manifesto it's human element. Read Capital and you'll see the differance.

After the failed revolutions of 1848, Marx and Engels fled to England where they wrote the famous book "Das Kapital" next to a set of other political, economical, historical and philosopical works.

two points. first, Engels didn't write Capital, that was Marx. second, they went to England because no one would let them live in their countries, blaming Marx (and thus Engels) for the Paris Commune and so on.

also, Capital was never finished. the first volume was, but the second and third were not published as intended until after Marx died. the third volume, which is only fragments, was actively suppressed by the Stalinists until the 60's.

According to Marx the decisive factor in history had been a number of quarrels between diverse social classes.

not diverse, only two: prols and bourgeoise. and it's not quarrels, it's class conflict, an inherant aspect of all society. there's a differance.

Marx believed that fundamental changes could only be achieved by a revolution that took power from the capitalist classe by force.

a common misconception, created by those famous lines on the last page of the Manifesto. Marx had a far more interesting, nuanced, sophisticated and accurate model of social change. Marx noted that the mode of production changed based on historical conditions, and that because we are bound by historical conditions we would have no direct control over the change. the reason capitalism overturned feudalism is because capitalism was the more dynamic, progressive force.

the reason capitalism's fall is inevitable, to Marx, is that it is literally constructing its own guillotine. the falling rate of profit, overproduction crisis's, the creation of communcal capitalist property, the organization of 'labor armies,' all work to shift historical condtions away from private ownership and towards social ownership of the means of production. when this new mode of production, a classless society where there are no owners, only workers, is more progressive, more able to adapt to historical conditions than capitalism, then it will overtake capitalism.

this will require violence, naturally, but the violence would not make the shift possible, it would be created by the change.

The victorious workers were to establish a temporary dictatorship (Dictatorship of the Proletariat) until socialism was well incorporated into the society.

this 'dictatorship' was never fully explained by Marx, who never actually talked about political structures. again, it refers only to the fact that workers, not capital owners, would dictate production, and would prevent counter-revolution.

also, let's remember what Marx himself said, 'I am not a Marxist.'

Good job! It is very well explained! :D

This will surely help to clear up many confusions some people have.

This will surely help to clear up many confusions some people have.

i doubt it; if misconceptions could be cleared up by people reading things they wouldn't have made those mistakes to begin with.

SeOOC:
I havent read your correction when I posted!
Good job in clearing up his mistake! You seem to know lots about the subject.

Anyway, I do think this thread will help to clear up some confusions, but not all, as there is always people who refuse to learn something that proves that they were wrong.
I consider myself partly marxist, as I agree with most of the things he says, but not all of them.

Its good to see a real educated discourse on communism. I my self have tried to convince some of those more intereste4d in themselves in teh benefits of communism, but it never works. Although I once convinced a Bulgarian Girl who had fled to the Us from the Soviet oppression that communism was a good thing, and I showed her the difference between communism and stalinism. So you see even those with the most against communism can convinced. Keep up the good fight!

Good job in clearing up his mistake! You seem to know lots about the subject.

yeah, well, i'm a nerd; i only studied PSE for six years, i ought to know about it.

I showed her the difference between communism and stalinism.

an important distinction, the most important distinction, willingly lost by capitalists.

In February 1912 the last emperor of China stepped down from the throne and China became a republic. Sun Yat-Sen imediatly had to give up his presidential function to military heavy weight Yuan Sje-Kai, Suns secret revolutionary organisation came back as the Quomintang, Sun could do little and Yuan ruled the country as a true dictator until his death in 1916. Sun then tried to establish the new government in the southern canton, but the major part of the country was ruled by local military leaders and warlords. Sun had nationalistisc and political agenda but he was also interested in socialism and economical reforms. The Soviets showed the will to support Sun(but he had to take up communists in his party), but Sun died during the preparations for the offensicve up North in 1925.

One of Suns followers was a young assistent librarian from Peking, Mao Tse toeng. In the library he learned about the Marxisme which he started to embrace in 1919, together with some others he founded the CCP(Chinese communist party), in the beginning there were little problems between Nationalists and Communists.
After Suns death his place was taken by a military man, Chiang Kai-Sjek, he had no problems taking Shanghai, Chiang was "convinced" by industrials in the city to act against the new treat of communism, Chiang had no sympathy with communism and in April 1927 thousands of communists got slaughtered, the CCP dissapeared into illegality. Chiang became the ruler of China but this was only achieved trough agreements with the various warlords, Chiangs empire was weak when the communists and Japanese challenged him.(there is more than one version of Chiangs reason to fight the communists but i'm using this one as it seems the most plausible)

Mao was convinced that the farmerclasse (from which he came)would become the driving revolutionary force in China. He founded a communist state (near Hunan and Shensi where he was born) together with other communist leaders and set up a new army, the Red Army.

Thats funny, what was the comment about the USSR and stalinism being right wing? Idiots, where is the free markets and libertarian principals that constitute the true right wing? What I saw was a massive government with a social economy, a clear definition of what leftists admire... Big, oppressive government, and passive (and very fake) freedoms...

several points i think should be clarified.

When Europe was flooded by short liberal and nationalist revolutions Karl Marx(1818-1883) and his assistent Friedrich Engels(1820-1895) published "The communist manifest"

Engels was hardly an assistant to Marx; it was Engels that funded Marx's autodidactic hermitage, and Engels was by far the superior sociologist of the two. Engels has many important articles in his own right, and contributeds most of the social and cultural arguments against capitalism. Marx created the framework, but ultimately was only an econmiest; Engels gave the Manifesto it's human element. Read Capital and you'll see the differance.

After the failed revolutions of 1848, Marx and Engels fled to England where they wrote the famous book "Das Kapital" next to a set of other political, economical, historical and philosopical works.

two points. first, Engels didn't write Capital, that was Marx. second, they went to England because no one would let them live in their countries, blaming Marx (and thus Engels) for the Paris Commune and so on.

also, Capital was never finished. the first volume was, but the second and third were not published as intended until after Marx died. the third volume, which is only fragments, was actively suppressed by the Stalinists until the 60's.

According to Marx the decisive factor in history had been a number of quarrels between diverse social classes.

not diverse, only two: prols and bourgeoise. and it's not quarrels, it's class conflict, an inherant aspect of all society. there's a differance.

Marx believed that fundamental changes could only be achieved by a revolution that took power from the capitalist classe by force.

a common misconception, created by those famous lines on the last page of the Manifesto. Marx had a far more interesting, nuanced, sophisticated and accurate model of social change. Marx noted that the mode of production changed based on historical conditions, and that because we are bound by historical conditions we would have no direct control over the change. the reason capitalism overturned feudalism is because capitalism was the more dynamic, progressive force.

the reason capitalism's fall is inevitable, to Marx, is that it is literally constructing its own guillotine. the falling rate of profit, overproduction crisis's, the creation of communcal capitalist property, the organization of 'labor armies,' all work to shift historical condtions away from private ownership and towards social ownership of the means of production. when this new mode of production, a classless society where there are no owners, only workers, is more progressive, more able to adapt to historical conditions than capitalism, then it will overtake capitalism.

this will require violence, naturally, but the violence would not make the shift possible, it would be created by the change.

The victorious workers were to establish a temporary dictatorship (Dictatorship of the Proletariat) until socialism was well incorporated into the society.

this 'dictatorship' was never fully explained by Marx, who never actually talked about political structures. again, it refers only to the fact that workers, not capital owners, would dictate production, and would prevent counter-revolution.

also, let's remember what Marx himself said, 'I am not a Marxist.'

1. You could be right about Engels not being his assistent. Not going to argue this.

2. Like i said, they fled Germany, i said that they wrote it together to keep the story as short as i could, few words to much and i get "Invalid session" when i try to post, it already cost me 2 pages of stuff. But you are correct, Marx wrote Das Kapital alone.

It is not entirely finished, that is correct, but i like i said, i have to keep it short and clear to anyone who reads the topic. besides Marx started the First International Workers association so it is not really important if he didnt entirely finish the book.

3. I speak Dutch, so i have to translate everything i want to write, sometimes i choose a wrong word, entirely my fault for which i apologize.

4 wellsaid, why did i have to start this thread?

5. therefore the people who had to set up the dictatorship looked into history, the Paris commune to be more exact, what Marx called the "First step".

Chiang did not care about social reforms and the corruption within the Quomintang while repartitioning of the land and a rightious government found much support among the farmers.
Chiang organized 5 destructionoffensives against the communists, The communist guerillatactics held of 4 offensives but the Quomintang had a serious numerical advantage that gave them victory in the 5th offensive(these offensives between 1930-1934 had cost a million lives). The remainder of the Red Army escaped to the West.
It was the beginning of "The long March", a heroic 9500km march trough mountains and over rivers that cost more than 70.000 lives(different books will give different numbers, one i have talks about 100.000 dead) and ended in Yenan in the North-West. Mao became the undisputed leader of the CCP, Tsju en-Lai was his righthand. Chiang wanted to destroy Mao before he could turn to other problems, such as the agressive Japanese.

The Japanese easily conquered Nanking and Peking, while they bombed other Chinese cities, Chiang and the communists cooperated with eachother to fight the invader but they could not stop Japan from taking the Northern and Western parts of China, the war gor into an impasse as the Japanese did not succeed in taking the Chinese backlands while the Chinese wer no match for the Japanese troops.
When the war ended in 1945, the Nationalists weemed superior as they got support and equipment from the Americans while the Nationalist army controlled the cities.
The Communists received alot of support from the farmers and they quickly grew stronger until they became superior in tactics and morale.
By Octobre '49, Chiang had fled to Formosa(Taiwan) and the new People's republic was founded during a massive gathering.

My nation is socialist and i am a good whit the people who live in my country, so communist/socialist is not bad, people who use it in the real life are bad.

China was in ruins from the war, but communism restored power and rebuilt the economy.
Although communism was against private ownership in principle, the party was mild and promised that all social classes would get their share in development. The most radical change was also the most popular: the Agriculture law(1950), it ended large landownership, distributing land between the farmers. The government encouraged agricultural coorperations until 1955, when they enforce collectivisation. The industry was built after the Soviet model from 1953 on.

In 1956 Mao introduced the policy of the Hundred flowers, Freedom of speech. The result was that dissaproval and critizism that led to a direct revision and a campagne against the rightwing. Enormous numbers of dissidents were imprisoned or sent to villages far away. The by Mao's propaganda created massdemonstrations, openly humiliation of enemies and exagerated hysteria became examplatory for later campagnes.
Each defeat strengthened Mao in his will to transform the Chinese society. Everything that was connected to Bourgeoise and capitalism was swept away.
Because of his disputes with the SovietUnion, he did not want to have a Communist party by the Russian model, it ment that he mobilized the mass against cowardice and corrupcy, and eventually against the different rivalising leaders of the CCP. The leaders began to advocate more moderate, pragmatic politics.
In 1958 Maostarted the "Great leap forward" that would bring China from socialism directly into communism, local communes were founded, each with their own public services, life and work would be in communities (it used to be in families or even independant) and profits were divided.
China's enormous potential of workers was used for public works and the development of technology on a small scale. Symbolized by a million small melting ovens in the Chinese gardens.

LINK PLACED IN ALZANI WORLD CULTURAL DATABASE

i'll do the rest later, or if someone feels like it... go ahead.